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American 767
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:40 pm

Congrats to JetBlue and Airbus.

So JetBlue becvomes the first North American operator of the A220. Will it be built in France or in Canada? It looks like once the E-190s are gone, JetBlue will be an all-Airbus airline.

I think that the A220 would be a good fit on short haul routes that do not require a lot of capacity:
JFK/BOS to SYR/ROC/PIT/CLE and other markets in the Northeast and Midwest.
FLL/MCO to JAX/MSY/SAV and other markets in the Southeast.

Yes, A220 and A321 that's what the fleet in the long run will look like.
Ben Soriano
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:44 pm

I am a huge fan of the C series. A truly outstanding aircraft imho. A great day for Jet Blue and Airbus.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
MSPNWA
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:03 am

Not a big surprise. B6 was the carrier where Airbus had the edge with the CSeries. It does illustrate a problem with having the A220 compete against the A320. Airbus may have gained in A220 orders, but now they've lost A320 orders. It's tough to compete against yourself.
 
ahj2000
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:06 am

American 767 wrote:
Congrats to JetBlue and Airbus.

So JetBlue becvomes the first North American operator of the A220. Will it be built in France or in Canada? It looks like once the E-190s are gone, JetBlue will be an all-Airbus airline.

I think that the A220 would be a good fit on short haul routes that do not require a lot of capacity:
JFK/BOS to SYR/ROC/PIT/CLE and other markets in the Northeast and Midwest.
FLL/MCO to JAX/MSY/SAV and other markets in the Southeast.

Yes, A220 and A321 that's what the fleet in the long run will look like.

1) Delta will be first in N America.
2) B6’s will most likely be built in Mobile, Alabama.

Congrats to B6 and AB. Not at all surprising, to be honest, but perhaps faster than expected.
-Andrés Juánez
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:22 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Not a big surprise. B6 was the carrier where Airbus had the edge with the CSeries. It does illustrate a problem with having the A220 compete against the A320. Airbus may have gained in A220 orders, but now they've lost A320 orders. It's tough to compete against yourself.


Not really so tough, as long as the sales stay in the family. Not only does Airbus make a bunch of new sales, but they get an upgauge bonus by JetBlue switching their current orders from 320's to 321's.
What the...?
 
9252fly
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:24 am

ahj2000 wrote:
American 767 wrote:
Congrats to JetBlue and Airbus.

So JetBlue becvomes the first North American operator of the A220. Will it be built in France or in Canada? It looks like once the E-190s are gone, JetBlue will be an all-Airbus airline.

I think that the A220 would be a good fit on short haul routes that do not require a lot of capacity:
JFK/BOS to SYR/ROC/PIT/CLE and other markets in the Northeast and Midwest.
FLL/MCO to JAX/MSY/SAV and other markets in the Southeast.

Yes, A220 and A321 that's what the fleet in the long run will look like.

1) Delta will be first in N America.
2) B6’s will most likely be built in Mobile, Alabama.

Congrats to B6 and AB. Not at all surprising, to be honest, but perhaps faster than expected.


I imagine B6 made it's move now in order to secure delivery slots as there may be others buyers in the pipeline.
 
9252fly
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:30 am

I got to thinking about B6 conversion of it's A320 order to A321 and how a potential A220-500 could trigger Airbus to stretch the A321 into an A322. That would in essence cover the 100-250 seat market nicely.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:57 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
Not really so tough, as long as the sales stay in the family. Not only does Airbus make a bunch of new sales, but they get an upgauge bonus by JetBlue switching their current orders from 320's to 321's.


Any play of A320 vs. A220 isn't a good thing for Airbus. Competing against yourself is never a positive. Not only from a revenue side obviously, but also a cost side as you lose economies of scale. What is lost here is B6's desire to add 25 A321s to the order book. Those orders are lost.

The fact that Airbus is already 0 for 1 in preventing the A220 and A320 from competing against each other doesn't bode well for the belief that the A220 is only "complementary" to the A320. It's clearly also a competitor.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:03 am

9252fly wrote:
I got to thinking about B6 conversion of it's A320 order to A321 and how a potential A220-500 could trigger Airbus to stretch the A321 into an A322. That would in essence cover the 100-250 seat market nicely.

Well at least for B6, those option orders could get firmed up really fast if that's available. Those A320s will need to be replace at some point and A321s can't do all their missions.

seat38a wrote:
The A220-300 burns 40 percent less fuel per seat than the E190s

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... lion-order

Correct me if I'm wrong but with efficiency difference like that, you can operate the bigger planes into the current markets that the E190's fly and still make it work with empty seats.


Also currently for B6, you will see that E90s don't fly any long segments, because their trip cost comes close to that of A320 once you get over 1000 miles. Which would make A220-300 burn less fuel than the aircraft it replaces on many trips. So, it certainly will be a huge lift for them.

And they will finally be able to do red-eyes with something other than A320. Those E90s just never could do it.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:12 am

Bravo! Been waiting for this boost to such an amazing plane, and from my favorite US carrier next to DL, perfect~ Can't wait to fly on these, I am sure they will make their way either into the islands or atleast to RSW. Congrats to all involved, take that Boeing
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
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Erebus
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:14 am

MSPNWA wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
Not really so tough, as long as the sales stay in the family. Not only does Airbus make a bunch of new sales, but they get an upgauge bonus by JetBlue switching their current orders from 320's to 321's.


Any play of A320 vs. A220 isn't a good thing for Airbus. Competing against yourself is never a positive. Not only from a revenue side obviously, but also a cost side as you lose economies of scale. What is lost here is B6's desire to add 25 A321s to the order book. Those orders are lost.

The fact that Airbus is already 0 for 1 in preventing the A220 and A320 from competing against each other doesn't bode well for the belief that the A220 is only "complementary" to the A320. It's clearly also a competitor.


1. Airbus has a lot more to gain than lose by having the A220 on its side. What would be the other options for jetBlue if Airbus didn't have the A220?

2. Say the two aircraft have differences in economics for jetBlue's requirements. Would you rather (a) discount the A320 substantially to make up for difference or (b) sell an A220 with a more reasonable margin?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:27 am

tphuang wrote:
9252fly wrote:
I got to thinking about B6 conversion of it's A320 order to A321 and how a potential A220-500 could trigger Airbus to stretch the A321 into an A322. That would in essence cover the 100-250 seat market nicely.

Well at least for B6, those option orders could get firmed up really fast if that's available. Those A320s will need to be replace at some point and A321s can't do all their missions.

seat38a wrote:
The A220-300 burns 40 percent less fuel per seat than the E190s

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... lion-order

Correct me if I'm wrong but with efficiency difference like that, you can operate the bigger planes into the current markets that the E190's fly and still make it work with empty seats.


Also currently for B6, you will see that E90s don't fly any long segments, because their trip cost comes close to that of A320 once you get over 1000 miles. Which would make A220-300 burn less fuel than the aircraft it replaces on many trips. So, it certainly will be a huge lift for them.

And they will finally be able to do red-eyes with something other than A320. Those E90s just never could do it.

I believe the per trip cost of the A220-300 is fractionally less than an E-190. There is just no comparison in economics.

This was always E2-195 vs. [strike]cs300[/strike]A220-300.

2020 slots... Go Airbus!

Lightsaber
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JoeCanuck
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:34 am

MSPNWA wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
Not really so tough, as long as the sales stay in the family. Not only does Airbus make a bunch of new sales, but they get an upgauge bonus by JetBlue switching their current orders from 320's to 321's.


Any play of A320 vs. A220 isn't a good thing for Airbus. Competing against yourself is never a positive. Not only from a revenue side obviously, but also a cost side as you lose economies of scale. What is lost here is B6's desire to add 25 A321s to the order book. Those orders are lost.

The fact that Airbus is already 0 for 1 in preventing the A220 and A320 from competing against each other doesn't bode well for the belief that the A220 is only "complementary" to the A320. It's clearly also a competitor.


That reasoning only works if the 320 was in competition with the 220, which really doesn't seem to be the case. B6 wanted something smaller than the 320 and Airbus won an order that was not between the 220 and 320, but between the 220 and the E2-195.

This order means Airbus will sell up to 60 planes that they never would have gotten otherwise. I'm not sure how any 321 orders were lost.
What the...?
 
PA12
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:42 am

ELP? TUS?
 
ytz
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:44 am

MSPNWA wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
Not really so tough, as long as the sales stay in the family. Not only does Airbus make a bunch of new sales, but they get an upgauge bonus by JetBlue switching their current orders from 320's to 321's.


Any play of A320 vs. A220 isn't a good thing for Airbus. Competing against yourself is never a positive. Not only from a revenue side obviously, but also a cost side as you lose economies of scale. What is lost here is B6's desire to add 25 A321s to the order book. Those orders are lost.

The fact that Airbus is already 0 for 1 in preventing the A220 and A320 from competing against each other doesn't bode well for the belief that the A220 is only "complementary" to the A320. It's clearly also a competitor.


Laughable nonsense. Nobody is going to believe FUD like this. Especially not Airbus execs who signed off on the deal.

They've now captured part of the value of what would have been a fight between Bombardier and Embraer. And gotten a massive upgauge on their 320 backlog with B6. With more to follow.

Your nonsense is also underpinned by several massively flawed assumptions.

1) That having the the 320 and CS300 would not cost Airbus anything. But that's not true. We know they've had to discount sales to fend off Bombardier.

2) That they cant scale up quickly to improve efficiency. Just see what they are doing in Alabama. And watch how quickly more FALs come on if orders takeoff.

3) That they would have had just as many 320 sales to customers like B6. The CASM tells you half the story. Bombardier's troubles tell you the other half. All Bombardier needed was a well capitalized investor and they would have done serious damage to 320 sales as the CSeries took off.

Now watch as Airbus launches the CS5 at the same time as the NMA competitor, as soon as Boeing locks in on the NMA. Boeing will get to enjoy years of stretched resources fighting the Airbus NMA response and the CSeries. Why do you think Boeing so desperate to get its hands on the EJets? And why are you so desperate to not see what Boeing sees?
 
SteelChair
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:45 am

gsg013 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
With A220-300, I could see
JFK/BOS/FLL-SNA/BUR
JFK/BOS-EYW
Would A220-100 work with HPN-LAX/SFO?

More importantly, they can finally do red-eyes flights with something other than A320s. A220-300 will be a boon in the secondary transcon market.


I don't think JFK/BOS-EYW will work on the -300. Don't know if the plane would be light enough to handle the short runway. The -100 variant would be no problem.


What is the A220-300 MTOW and Empty weight? How does it compare to the 737-700 I would assume the 737 is a heavier plane than the A220 will be? DL flys the 737-700 3-5 times a day into EYW from ATL.


The 737-7 and A319 are about 7-8,000 lbs heavier than the CS300/A220-300 depending upon BFE and with similar seating capacity. Thats massive. No wonder the orderbooks for the 737-7 and A319 are so paltry.

The MTOWs are higher, but they have to be.
 
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SQ789
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:45 am

So that means JetBlue goes to an all Airbus fleet, so maybe their Embraer may go through another airline in the future?
We are Freedom & Peace Sharing the passion for aviation
 
MSPNWA
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:48 am

Erebus wrote:
1. Airbus has a lot more to gain than lose by having the A220 on its side. What would be the other options for jetBlue if Airbus didn't have the A220?

2. Say the two aircraft have differences in economics for jetBlue's requirements. Would you rather (a) discount the A320 substantially to make up for difference or (b) sell an A220 with a more reasonable margin?


1) That's not the point. No one is saying that. What is the point is that it's now already clear that the two programs are not complete complements and are indeed competitors to some degree. The only question is the extent.

2) You're missing option C for Airbus - sell the high profit A320neo to a loyal customer even if it's not their perfect plane for all missions. There is a legitimate question if Airbus actually comes out ahead in the short-run with selling 50% of 60 A220s instead of 100% of 25 A320neos (assuming B6 ordered more A321s which they clearly wanted). And there's even more question in the long-run. Airbus likely comes out ahead if B6 was going to order something other than Airbus if the A220 didn't exist in Airbus's control. However if B6 instead would have ordered more A320s instead of a Boeing, BBD, or Embraer, than it's likely that Airbus will have lost money by controlling the A220 program. The only guaranteed winner here appears to be B6.

JoeCanuck wrote:
That reasoning only works if the 320 was in competition with the 220, which really doesn't seem to be the case.


How can you say this when it clearly just happened? Are the facts of the matter that hard to comprehend?
 
SteelChair
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:52 am

queb wrote:
delivery schedule. All a/c made in USA.

Image


I'm surprised at how back loaded the order is.

I want to be the first to say that JetBlue will be long gone before all these airplanes are delivered.

Just mho.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:55 am

Well I wish it would of been the e190 , but since it seems that was never in the cards I am happy that the 220 won over the e195.

So what happens to the future e190 orders they are already locked into?
 
FlyBTV
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:57 am

lightsaber wrote:
BTV has a 8,319ft runway per Wikipedia. Why is everyone concerned?


I don't think the concern stems from performance issues - but rather can a small market like BTV support 145 seats on several departures for B6?

I'd argue it can, in part because historically it has and a number of legacy carriers have been upgauging into BTV as of late. United flies a 737-8 and Delta flies a 717, albeit each once daily and not to NYC-area airports, with other departures being covered by regional jets. BTV went through a decent slump in passenger traffic for several years but it is now approaching historical highs once again. Passenger volume is back to the level when B6 was flying A320s (which were configured to 150 seats at the time). I do always worry about B6 dropping BTV generally (even though I've moved from the area) - it is a small market, the smallest that B6 flies into. When I worked there, just under 50% of airport traffic was Canadian, no idea whether that is still the case (PBG has siphoned off some traffic as it is an easier drive from Montreal). B6 really never had an issue filling seats out of BTV, but yields were below other markets where the resources could be employed instead.

Another option would be dropping from 3x daily to JFK to 2x with the A220, although that would make them significantly less convenient as an option. No airline in recent times have had success with BTV-BOS, and they don't have slots to spare at DCA (and if they did, BTV wouldn't top the list of markets to launch from there). Any other focus city is just too far away for it to be an economic flight for them.
 
SteelChair
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:59 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Erebus wrote:
1. Airbus has a lot more to gain than lose by having the A220 on its side. What would be the other options for jetBlue if Airbus didn't have the A220?

2. Say the two aircraft have differences in economics for jetBlue's requirements. Would you rather (a) discount the A320 substantially to make up for difference or (b) sell an A220 with a more reasonable margin?


1) That's not the point. No one is saying that. What is the point is that it's now already clear that the two programs are not complete complements and are indeed competitors to some degree. The only question is the extent.

2) You're missing option C for Airbus - sell the high profit A320neo to a loyal customer even if it's not their perfect plane for all missions. There is a legitimate question if Airbus actually comes out ahead in the short-run with selling 50% of 60 A220s instead of 100% of 25 A320neos (assuming B6 ordered more A321s which they clearly wanted). And there's even more question in the long-run. Airbus likely comes out ahead if B6 was going to order something other than Airbus if the A220 didn't exist in Airbus's control. However if B6 instead would have ordered more A320s instead of a Boeing, BBD, or Embraer, than it's likely that Airbus will have lost money by controlling the A220 program. The only guaranteed winner here appears to be B6.

JoeCanuck wrote:
That reasoning only works if the 320 was in competition with the 220, which really doesn't seem to be the case.


How can you say this when it clearly just happened? Are the facts of the matter that hard to comprehend?


Sell it to them even if its not the perfect plane for all missions? Really? What if they're not buying that? They are the customer after all. Are you going to force them through some obscene market machinations? That's the highway to hell. You end up selling airplanes based upon a 1968 design 50 years later. Airbus Industrie is not that stupid imho.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:04 am

SteelChair wrote:
Sell it to them even if its not the perfect plane for all missions? Really? What if they're not buying that? They are the customer after all. Are you going to force them through some obscene market machinations? That's the highway to hell. You end up selling airplanes based upon a 1968 design 50 years later. Airbus Industrie is not that stupid imho.


Do you believe that all airplanes ordered are perfect for every mission the airline has planned for them? Do you think that airlines want thousands of A320neos but only 55 A319neos because ~130 seats is suitable for only a fraction of routes and ~160 seats is exactly what's needed for the rest?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:06 am

This was an order that Embraer needed to win badly. The only other customer in the Americas outside of Brazil that I could see having a need for the E2 might be Avianca. When it's time for UA and AA to replace their A319s (AA sooner for the ex-US Airways and America West A319s), I see the A223 as the likely winner. The center of this model could very well end up being JFK and LGA.

As for B6, I see a top-up order for A220-100s, maybe about 20, for the thin intra-NY and New England hops for which the A223 would be too much plane (I'm thinking JFK out to ACK, HYA, MVY, PWM, and SYR, as well as short hops from FLL and MCO into the Caribbean (also with CLT seeing some as rotation between hubs). At ACK, HYA, amd MVY, B6 is the only operator with mainline-sized equipment, and an A223 would be way too much plane.

As for the A320s, I see some of the 500-series (fleet numbers) being retired, but not for maybe another 10 years, as B6 would do well to fly these frames that are, or will be when the leases expire, fully-owned until economic end of life. HOWEVER, B6 will now have a more appropriate plane to send to markets like HPN and SWF.
 
SteelChair
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:21 am

MSPNWA wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Sell it to them even if its not the perfect plane for all missions? Really? What if they're not buying that? They are the customer after all. Are you going to force them through some obscene market machinations? That's the highway to hell. You end up selling airplanes based upon a 1968 design 50 years later. Airbus Industrie is not that stupid imho.


Do you believe that all airplanes ordered are perfect for every mission the airline has planned for them? Do you think that airlines want thousands of A320neos but only 55 A319neos because ~130 seats is suitable for only a fraction of routes and ~160 seats is exactly what's needed for the rest?


Its a matter of degree. I agree there are compromises, but the customer should decide, not the supplier.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:23 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
This was an order that Embraer needed to win badly. The only other customer in the Americas outside of Brazil that I could see having a need for the E2 might be Avianca. When it's time for UA and AA to replace their A319s (AA sooner for the ex-US Airways and America West A319s), I see the A223 as the likely winner. The center of this model could very well end up being JFK and LGA.

As for B6, I see a top-up order for A220-100s, maybe about 20, for the thin intra-NY and New England hops for which the A223 would be too much plane (I'm thinking JFK out to ACK, HYA, MVY, PWM, and SYR, as well as short hops from FLL and MCO into the Caribbean (also with CLT seeing some as rotation between hubs). At ACK, HYA, amd MVY, B6 is the only operator with mainline-sized equipment, and an A223 would be way too much plane.

As for the A320s, I see some of the 500-series (fleet numbers) being retired, but not for maybe another 10 years, as B6 would do well to fly these frames that are, or will be when the leases expire, fully-owned until economic end of life. HOWEVER, B6 will now have a more appropriate plane to send to markets like HPN and SWF.


I wish WN would consider the E2. They need a smaller plane for routes that used to be served by 732's and 735's. WN has cut back so many flights to CRP and other small market cities that many destinations aren't offered. The smallest aircraft Boeing will produce now is the 150 seat 737-7Max which is too much plane nowadays for short flights to smaller markets.
 
many321
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:28 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
This was an order that Embraer needed to win badly. The only other customer in the Americas outside of Brazil that I could see having a need for the E2 might be Avianca.


Though, Avianca fleet is primarly Airbus besides some 788 and ERJ's.. I could see Airbus sweetened a deal for them to get A220-100 for E-90 replacements, and swap their A319Neo order for the A220-300.
 
ericm2031
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:31 am

Didn't they still have 24 firm E190 orders?
 
PPVRA
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:38 am

This is closer to an A320 replacement than a E190 replacement. The -300 will seat almost as many passengers as an A320, but with lower pilot pay.

Ditching/not ordering 100 seaters is a business strategy shift.

Congrats to Airbus—and enjoy not paying the EU any royalties ;)
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:08 am

Awesome deal. Excited for the new B6 fleet direction.
-Dave
 
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Slug71
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:21 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Not a big surprise. B6 was the carrier where Airbus had the edge with the CSeries. It does illustrate a problem with having the A220 compete against the A320. Airbus may have gained in A220 orders, but now they've lost A320 orders. It's tough to compete against yourself.


Airbus gained orders they would not have got with the A319NEO though. The A320 still has a healthy backlog. And this deal cost Airbus nothing other than the FAL costs.

9252fly wrote:
I got to thinking about B6 conversion of it's A320 order to A321 and how a potential A220-500 could trigger Airbus to stretch the A321 into an A322. That would in essence cover the 100-250 seat market nicely.


coronado wrote:
Is there any doubt that within a 2 years when a A220-500 is officially launched that we will also see the announcement of a A320.5neo or maybe they can call it A320NXtra or A320E for enhanced, with another 2 or 3 rows of seats compared to the current A320neo, and a A321 neoLR plus with an a range boost over the current LR, and finally the launch of a A322 6 or even 7 rows longer than the current A321 with a updated longer wing based on a 3-4 foot wing root extension (and 4000-4400NM range?). It is time for Airbus to enhance its A320 to better compete with the 737-8 economics by adding another 12-18 Y seats, and while they are at it tinker with the A321 for another range boost, and at the same time launch a A322. A wing root extension, and a plug forward and aft of the wing box could add 36-42 seats compared to the current A321 neo while boosting range, and if it can all be done for $1.5-2bn, Airbus can put a serious hurt on 797 program. Engine wise I interpret the progress on PW solving their issues as a good sign that within 2-3 years they can roll out a 10% boost to the current geared neo power plant, sufficient to propel a A322. An A220-500 will be very compelling to a lot of operators. I see Delta converting their 50 options into firm orders for A220-300 in the next couple months and ordering an additional 80-100 A220-300 with options to convert these to a launch order for A220-500 and start a phase out in the 2023-2026 time frame of their A319 and A320 fleets and perhaps even the 10 strong orphan 737-700 fleet.


A stretch of the A321 is not worth the cost when the entire base design is dated. IMO, the cost would be better spent on the A320 family replacement. Buts that's for a different thread.
Last edited by Slug71 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:27 am

Is there any doubt that within a 2 years when a A220-500 is officially launched that we will also see the announcement of a A320.5neo or maybe they can call it A320NXtra or A320E for enhanced, with another 2 or 3 rows of seats compared to the current A320neo, and a A321 neoLR plus with an a range boost over the current LR, and finally the launch of a A322 6 or even 7 rows longer than the current A321 with a updated longer wing based on a 3-4 foot wing root extension (and 4000-4400NM range?). It is time for Airbus to enhance its A320 to better compete with the 737-8 economics by adding another 12-18 Y seats, and while they are at it tinker with the A321 for another range boost, and at the same time launch a A322. A wing root extension, and a plug forward and aft of the wing box could add 36-42 seats compared to the current A321 neo while boosting range, and if it can all be done for $1.5-2bn, Airbus can put a serious hurt on 797 program. Engine wise I interpret the progress on PW solving their issues as a good sign that within 2-3 years they can roll out a 10% boost to the current geared neo power plant, sufficient to propel a A322. An A220-500 will be very compelling to a lot of operators. I see Delta converting their 50 options into firm orders for A220-300 in the next couple months and ordering an additional 80-100 A220-300 with options to convert these to a launch order for A220-500 and start a phase out in the 2023-2026 time frame of their A319 and A320 fleets and perhaps even the 10 strong orphan 737-700 fleet.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:36 am

Slug71 wrote:
Airbus gained orders they would not have got with the A319NEO though. The A320 still has a healthy backlog. And this deal cost Airbus nothing other than the FAL costs.


Too many assumptions. You're assuming B6 would not have ordered the A320neo instead. Only B6 execs know that. And we know that as of today they've lost an opportunity to add 25 A320neo series orders. This deal will in all certainty cost Airbus far more than FAL costs. It's basic economics that running two families of partially competing products are not the most cost effective solution.
 
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:38 am

SteelChair wrote:
I want to be the first to say that JetBlue will be long gone before all these airplanes are delivered.

Just mho.


I'm sure AS will find a niche for them, don't worry. :duck:
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:38 am

Please keep political comments to the Non-Aviation forum only
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:45 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
This was an order that Embraer needed to win badly. The only other customer in the Americas outside of Brazil that I could see having a need for the E2 might be Avianca. When it's time for UA and AA to replace their A319s (AA sooner for the ex-US Airways and America West A319s), I see the A223 as the likely winner. The center of this model could very well end up being JFK and LGA.

As for B6, I see a top-up order for A220-100s, maybe about 20, for the thin intra-NY and New England hops for which the A223 would be too much plane (I'm thinking JFK out to ACK, HYA, MVY, PWM, and SYR, as well as short hops from FLL and MCO into the Caribbean (also with CLT seeing some as rotation between hubs). At ACK, HYA, amd MVY, B6 is the only operator with mainline-sized equipment, and an A223 would be way too much plane.

As for the A320s, I see some of the 500-series (fleet numbers) being retired, but not for maybe another 10 years, as B6 would do well to fly these frames that are, or will be when the leases expire, fully-owned until economic end of life. HOWEVER, B6 will now have a more appropriate plane to send to markets like HPN and SWF.


I wish WN would consider the E2. They need a smaller plane for routes that used to be served by 732's and 735's. WN has cut back so many flights to CRP and other small market cities that many destinations aren't offered. The smallest aircraft Boeing will produce now is the 150 seat 737-7Max which is too much plane nowadays for short flights to smaller markets.


This could also be something David Neeleman's next project could involve as well...an airline based around the E290 or E295.
 
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tjcab
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:47 am

MSPNWA wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
Not really so tough, as long as the sales stay in the family. Not only does Airbus make a bunch of new sales, but they get an upgauge bonus by JetBlue switching their current orders from 320's to 321's.


Any play of A320 vs. A220 isn't a good thing for Airbus. Competing against yourself is never a positive. Not only from a revenue side obviously, but also a cost side as you lose economies of scale. What is lost here is B6's desire to add 25 A321s to the order book. Those orders are lost.

The fact that Airbus is already 0 for 1 in preventing the A220 and A320 from competing against each other doesn't bode well for the belief that the A220 is only "complementary" to the A320. It's clearly also a competitor.


Seems like some people here would have preferred this to go to Embraer. JetBlue is acquiring the aircraft that they want. Leave them be.

Congratulations to JetBlue, Airbus, and Bombardier. An impressive sale.
 
Flighty
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:00 am

Revelation wrote:
Flighty wrote:
It turns out to be even more sinister than that. Because of Airbus and Boeing’s financial power, it was impossible for bombardier to market the CS300, because of market trashing by 737 and A319. This was deemed a credible threat and the CSeries program financially died. Then Airbus suddenly sells the CS300 no problem and may even make big profit on the program. That’s sickening. It means we do not live in a competitive world. BBD innovated and AFAIK Airbus strongarmed them and took it away from them. Did BBD make a good profit? If not, who will make the mistake of innovating again? 737 Max simply underlines this point. It’s a disgrace.

So, what are A and B supposed to do, sit around and let BBD/EMB grow to the point that they become a threat? A & B are building A32x/B737 at 50+/month each and heading to 60/month. Their costs are SO much cheaper than BBD/EMB. That gives them the room to flex their muscles. I don't see how you could "fix" that. It's not like EMB/BBD have some inalienable right to exist.

Flighty wrote:
As for the 500 - your point is likely correct that Airbus and Boeing needed to kill it - or own it. And who would blame Airbus for green lighting that product now and making beaucoup moneys?! How will the 738 Max fare against the A220-500? Uh-oh, Boeing!

I think B would love A to commit to a 5x A220-500 and then let NSA come along with the optimal 6x and give them a beat down. Then Airbus would need to invest in something to cover the A321/NMA market segment too since the 6x NSA and 7x NMA will have them bracketed. Then B would have similar tech from NSA to NMA to 787 and even some crew crossover to 77X. It'd be a great product lineup.


You gave very thoughtful comment and my post was pretty sloppy. You’re right - how was BBD supposed to succeed against Boeing and Airbus financial hegemony and economies of scale - I don’t know. But I will note that it proved impossible. Whether BBD “mismanaged” this program I don’t really know. It seemed to go better than I expected. But competing for actual sales proved impossible without many billions of dollars to prime the pump. So now Airbus owns it. And it is by all accounts the state of the art 5Y platform in the world. That counts for something. The market potential is giant. Not just big or huge, but giant. As for the Boeing NNB I look forward to that competition. It will be great to see these high tech airplanes. I do worry about Boeing and Airbus running a duopoly and taking advantage of airlines, and us all. Do I have a solution, no. China can probably do what canada could not, fund a real alternative. If they can engineer it, which so far, they cannot.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:00 am

EA CO AS wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I want to be the first to say that JetBlue will be long gone before all these airplanes are delivered.

Just mho.


I'm sure AS will find a niche for them, don't worry. :duck:


I’m so bummed that AS probably won’t have the CSeries- ... uh, A220 in their fleet. Unless you want to hint at something. :-)
-Dave
 
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:02 am

FlyBTV wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
BTV has a 8,319ft runway per Wikipedia. Why is everyone concerned?


I don't think the concern stems from performance issues - but rather can a small market like BTV support 145 seats on several departures for B6?

I'd argue it can, in part because historically it has and a number of legacy carriers have been upgauging into BTV as of late. United flies a 737-8 and Delta flies a 717, albeit each once daily and not to NYC-area airports, with other departures being covered by regional jets. BTV went through a decent slump in passenger traffic for several years but it is now approaching historical highs once again. Passenger volume is back to the level when B6 was flying A320s (which were configured to 150 seats at the time). I do always worry about B6 dropping BTV generally (even though I've moved from the area) - it is a small market, the smallest that B6 flies into. When I worked there, just under 50% of airport traffic was Canadian, no idea whether that is still the case (PBG has siphoned off some traffic as it is an easier drive from Montreal). B6 really never had an issue filling seats out of BTV, but yields were below other markets where the resources could be employed instead.

Another option would be dropping from 3x daily to JFK to 2x with the A220, although that would make them significantly less convenient as an option. No airline in recent times have had success with BTV-BOS, and they don't have slots to spare at DCA (and if they did, BTV wouldn't top the list of markets to launch from there). Any other focus city is just too far away for it to be an economic flight for them.

If a city can support the E-190, with the A220 having the same or lower cost per flight?

130 or 135 seater burning 40% less fuel per passenger is less fuel per flight than the E-190. Less maintenance. Prices were low and possibly higher daily utilization of the A220. Drop fares a little, the planes will be filled up. If a small market cannot grow 30% in 5 years, that is a marginal market anyway.

Lightsaber
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Flighty
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:05 am

lightsaber wrote:
FlyBTV wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
BTV has a 8,319ft runway per Wikipedia. Why is everyone concerned?


I don't think the concern stems from performance issues - but rather can a small market like BTV support 145 seats on several departures for B6?

I'd argue it can, in part because historically it has and a number of legacy carriers have been upgauging into BTV as of late. United flies a 737-8 and Delta flies a 717, albeit each once daily and not to NYC-area airports, with other departures being covered by regional jets. BTV went through a decent slump in passenger traffic for several years but it is now approaching historical highs once again. Passenger volume is back to the level when B6 was flying A320s (which were configured to 150 seats at the time). I do always worry about B6 dropping BTV generally (even though I've moved from the area) - it is a small market, the smallest that B6 flies into. When I worked there, just under 50% of airport traffic was Canadian, no idea whether that is still the case (PBG has siphoned off some traffic as it is an easier drive from Montreal). B6 really never had an issue filling seats out of BTV, but yields were below other markets where the resources could be employed instead.

Another option would be dropping from 3x daily to JFK to 2x with the A220, although that would make them significantly less convenient as an option. No airline in recent times have had success with BTV-BOS, and they don't have slots to spare at DCA (and if they did, BTV wouldn't top the list of markets to launch from there). Any other focus city is just too far away for it to be an economic flight for them.

If a city can support the E-190, with the A220 having the same or lower cost per flight?

130 or 135 seater burning 40% less fuel per passenger is less fuel per flight than the E-190. Less maintenance. Prices were low and possibly higher daily utilization of the A220. Drop fares a little, the planes will be filled up. If a small market cannot grow 30% in 5 years, that is a marginal market anyway.

Lightsaber


Disagree on your last point lightsaber; North America is a mature market. A lot of these markets haven’t seen 30% growth in twenty years. The fact trip cost is so low is indeed very compelling. But the notion that unlimited latent traffic is in every market is a myth. Seats go empty if you over serve. Been there done that.
 
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:08 am

I honestly don't believe this is the A220 and A320 competing against each other. The only way this happens is if there is an A220-500 (which would be of A320neo size). I also see this as finally killing off the A319neo for good, once some range improvements are made to the A223.
 
ytz
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:16 am

Revelation wrote:
I think B would love A to commit to a 5x A220-500 and then let NSA come along with the optimal 6x and give them a beat down. Then Airbus would need to invest in something to cover the A321/NMA market segment too since the 6x NSA and 7x NMA will have them bracketed. Then B would have similar tech from NSA to NMA to 787 and even some crew crossover to 77X. It'd be a great product lineup.


Except that developing the CS5/A225 won't take much from Bombardier/Airbus. And they'll be able to do that and the NMA competitor at the same time. This is exactly what they will do as soon as Boeing firms up the NMA and is properly locked in. So Boeing is the one who will be on the defensive, fighting off the CSeries and Airbus' NMA response. It's why Boeing is gunning to get the EJets in their stable. It's a weak attempt at trying to have a response in the sub 150 seat class.

Boeing really should have picked up the CSeries. They had more to gain from it than Airbus.
 
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Slug71
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:16 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Airbus gained orders they would not have got with the A319NEO though. The A320 still has a healthy backlog. And this deal cost Airbus nothing other than the FAL costs.


Too many assumptions. You're assuming B6 would not have ordered the A320neo instead. Only B6 execs know that. And we know that as of today they've lost an opportunity to add 25 A320neo series orders. This deal will in all certainty cost Airbus far more than FAL costs. It's basic economics that running two families of partially competing products are not the most cost effective solution.


Maybe. But Airbus didn't pay anything to BBD for their share in the C-Series. And BBD may have had to pay 49.99% (their remaining share in the C-Series) of the costs for the FAL and other associated costs. But who knows.

I am assuming that B6 would not have ordered the A320neo though. They could have kept their order but instead, moved the orders to the A321neo. So clearly that was not of interest. The A319neo seat capacity is closer to the A223's, rather than the A320neo's. So I see it as, the A223 got orders the A319neo could not get. Plus a good early vote of confidence for the program, the A319neo got the fork.

At the end of the day, looks like B6 got what they wanted.
 
ytz
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:18 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I honestly don't believe this is the A220 and A320 competing against each other. The only way this happens is if there is an A220-500 (which would be of A320neo size). I also see this as finally killing off the A319neo for good, once some range improvements are made to the A223.


You shouldn't believe it, cause it's not true. It's fanboy nonsense from people who think they know better than the execs at Airbus.
 
ytz
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:27 am

many321 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
This was an order that Embraer needed to win badly. The only other customer in the Americas outside of Brazil that I could see having a need for the E2 might be Avianca.


Though, Avianca fleet is primarly Airbus besides some 788 and ERJ's.. I could see Airbus sweetened a deal for them to get A220-100 for E-90 replacements, and swap their A319Neo order for the A220-300.


I called this months ago. And I'll stick by it. 20 221s and 20 223s would be perfect for AV. And that's just the start. Depending on how they want to split their 320 replacements, they could downgauge some of those to 223s while upgauging more of them to 321s.

For a lot of airlines:

221 - The oversized regional. And long, thin specialist.
223 - Solid frequency builder.
321 - The people mover.
 
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:28 am

Be very entertaining to see Mint on these birds.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:49 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Airbus gained orders they would not have got with the A319NEO though. The A320 still has a healthy backlog. And this deal cost Airbus nothing other than the FAL costs.


Too many assumptions. You're assuming B6 would not have ordered the A320neo instead. Only B6 execs know that. And we know that as of today they've lost an opportunity to add 25 A320neo series orders. This deal will in all certainty cost Airbus far more than FAL costs. It's basic economics that running two families of partially competing products are not the most cost effective solution.


Actually, only one assumption, and that is that B6 got the planes it wanted. They were looking for a 190 replacement and they got that with the 220. The only other option was the E2-195. It was not the 320. I mean...if they wanted 320's, they would have bought 320's. As it is, it seems they don't want any more 320's...at least for the near future. If Airbus didn't acquire the 220, then it very well may have not had any new orders from B6, and only gotten the 321 upgauge cash.

Airbus didn't lose out on 320 orders...they swapped 320 orders for 321's. They are actually dollars ahead on that part of their announcement. If they decided they want 320's in the future, nothing is preventing them from getting them.

So my assumption is that B6 knows what it's doing, and Airbus managed to make some money out of the deal. Everybody wins.

PPVRA wrote:
This is closer to an A320 replacement than a E190 replacement. The -300 will seat almost as many passengers as an A320, but with lower pilot pay.

Ditching/not ordering 100 seaters is a business strategy shift.

Congrats to Airbus—and enjoy not paying the EU any royalties ;)


Actually...it's almost both. As far as I can tell, lower trip costs and way better CASM than the 190...lower CASM and way better trip costs than the 320.
What the...?
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:04 am

ytz wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I think B would love A to commit to a 5x A220-500 and then let NSA come along with the optimal 6x and give them a beat down. Then Airbus would need to invest in something to cover the A321/NMA market segment too since the 6x NSA and 7x NMA will have them bracketed. Then B would have similar tech from NSA to NMA to 787 and even some crew crossover to 77X. It'd be a great product lineup.


Except that developing the CS5/A225 won't take much from Bombardier/Airbus. And they'll be able to do that and the NMA competitor at the same time. This is exactly what they will do as soon as Boeing firms up the NMA and is properly locked in. So Boeing is the one who will be on the defensive, fighting off the CSeries and Airbus' NMA response. It's why Boeing is gunning to get the EJets in their stable. It's a weak attempt at trying to have a response in the sub 150 seat class.

Boeing really should have picked up the CSeries. They had more to gain from it than Airbus.


There are around 4,000 A320NEO's outstanding that an A220-500 would directly undermine or cannibalize, the prospect of Airbus launching an A225 in the near term that would jeopardize their bread and butter product is a huge risk and pretty hard to believe as something they'd realistically consider when they still have a massive A320NEO backlog. The A319NEO was easy to throw under the bus (no pun intended) and sacrifice in lieu of an A220 because relatively speaking no one wanted the A319NEO compared to the bigger variants, but directly throwing competing wrenches at their lynchpin product in the form of an A220-500 is an entirely different ball game. They seem to be content to position the A220 as an A319 and 737-7 killer, but going any bigger would be a self-inflicted wound and an intra-house product fight that would be unacceptable while the A320NEO is still a viable and strong selling product which it obviously is.
 
ytz
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:08 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
ytz wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I think B would love A to commit to a 5x A220-500 and then let NSA come along with the optimal 6x and give them a beat down. Then Airbus would need to invest in something to cover the A321/NMA market segment too since the 6x NSA and 7x NMA will have them bracketed. Then B would have similar tech from NSA to NMA to 787 and even some crew crossover to 77X. It'd be a great product lineup.


Except that developing the CS5/A225 won't take much from Bombardier/Airbus. And they'll be able to do that and the NMA competitor at the same time. This is exactly what they will do as soon as Boeing firms up the NMA and is properly locked in. So Boeing is the one who will be on the defensive, fighting off the CSeries and Airbus' NMA response. It's why Boeing is gunning to get the EJets in their stable. It's a weak attempt at trying to have a response in the sub 150 seat class.

Boeing really should have picked up the CSeries. They had more to gain from it than Airbus.


There are around 4,000 A320NEO's outstanding that an A220-500 would directly undermine or cannibalize, the prospect of Airbus launching an A225 in the near term that would jeopardize their bread and butter product is a huge risk and pretty hard to believe it's something they'd realistically consider when they still have a massive A320NEO backlog. The A319NEO was easy to throw under the bus (no pun intended) and sacrifice in lieu of an A220 because relatively speaking no one wanted the A319NEO compared to the bigger variants, but directly throwing competing wrenches at their lynchpin product in the form of an A220-500 is an entirely different ball game. They seem to be content to position the A220 as an A319 and 737-7 killer, but going any bigger would be a self-inflicted wound that would be unacceptable while the A320NEO is still a viable and strong selling product which it obviously is.


I never said near term. I said, "as soon as Boeing firms up the NMA and is properly locked in." Once Boeing is properly locked in on the NMA, Airbus would be stupid not to start a two front war. The 225 is dead easy to build. So hardly a major jump in resources. And they can size their response to the NMA to be competitive. Boeing's only option then is to launch the NSA, regardless of whether its ready to do so or has resources to do so.

Also, those 4000 orders aren't going anywhere. There will still be lots of airlines that want to buy A320s for commonality, range, container handling, etc. And there will be lots of airlines that will do exactly what JetBlue just did: upgauge their 320s to 321s while replacing some routes with smaller aircraft to boost frequencies or right size trip costs/revenue.
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