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mercure1
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Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:26 pm

Gulf Air management has confirmed that they will not take the 10 C-Series orders they placed in 2011. "I can confirm that we will not take her into our fleet fleet. We'll take the last necessary precautions with Bombardier."

Gulf Air instead is set to build its the short- and medium-haul fleet around Airbus A320 and A321 family.


https://www.aerotelegraph.com/gulf-air- ... nicht-mehr (in German)
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ake-cs100s
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:31 pm

Good opportunity for Delta I would think. First delivery is before year end.
 
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janders
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:34 pm

I suppose this is one of the dangers when deliveries slip and the gap between when the order was placed widens so much.

The entire business case in 2018 is likely very different than it was in 2011 for GF.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:37 pm

I'm expecting at least a couple more cancellations for the CSeries. There are still a few defunct and shaky customers left on the order list that may never get delivered.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:11 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Gulf Air management has confirmed that they will not take the 10 C-Series ...
Gulf Air instead is set to build its the short- and medium-haul fleet around Airbus A320 and A321 family.


Money going from one pocket to the other!
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:07 pm

I am sure Airbus marketing is more than happy to adjust the order for A320 family instead.
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bigjku
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:08 pm

LAXintl wrote:
I am sure Airbus marketing is more than happy to adjust the order for A320 family instead.


There would seem to be a strange conflict of interest. Airbus gets some percentage of the profit dollars on a CS sale and all the profit on an A320neo.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:09 pm

Bummer. But as this now stays within Airbus...
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:11 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
I'm expecting at least a couple more cancellations for the CSeries. There are still a few defunct and shaky customers left on the order list that may never get delivered.
I also expect new orders to outpace cancellations...
 
Varsity1
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:16 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
I'm expecting at least a couple more cancellations for the CSeries. There are still a few defunct and shaky customers left on the order list that may never get delivered.
I also expect new orders to outpace cancellations...


I don't. Economy is about to enter a down cycle.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:25 pm

Delta should seize on this to get the BCS3, or Bombardier should pitch these delivery slots to JetBlue and try to win that order as a mix of BCS1 and BCS3. The former can work on the short hop network from JFK and FLL while the latter would be E190 upgauges.
 
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Polot
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:34 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Delta should seize on this to get the BCS3, or Bombardier should pitch these delivery slots to JetBlue and try to win that order as a mix of BCS1 and BCS3. The former can work on the short hop network from JFK and FLL while the latter would be E190 upgauges.

Gulf Air’s slots were likely never assigned.
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:43 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like Airbus is off to a great start! Just joking, I honestly expected this as this route just made much more sense for GF. Keeps the fleet simple and honestly that aircraft size really isn’t needed for them.


The CSeries was just perfect for GF, a very capable airliner that's small enough to allow them to serve markets too small to be flown by the ME3's bigger birds.
 
TC957
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:22 pm

L0VE2FLY wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like Airbus is off to a great start! Just joking, I honestly expected this as this route just made much more sense for GF. Keeps the fleet simple and honestly that aircraft size really isn’t needed for them.


The CSeries was just perfect for GF, a very capable airliner that's small enough to allow them to serve markets too small to be flown by the ME3's bigger birds.

Well, they obviously thought otherwise....but I agree with you in that theory at least. I'd also say the CS300 should be ideal for the airlines in central Asia.
 
vfw614
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:27 pm

bigjku wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
I am sure Airbus marketing is more than happy to adjust the order for A320 family instead.


There would seem to be a strange conflict of interest. Airbus gets some percentage of the profit dollars on a CS sale and all the profit on an A320neo.


Could be the same dilemma that became apparent when Fokker and VFW merged in the 1970s and the merged company then had the Fokker 28 and the VFW614 in its portfolio, two small jets competing in roughly the same market segment. With Fokker being the larger and more influential part of the merged company, many folks at VFW blamed the Fokker guys for not going for sales of the VFW614 and favouring sales of the Fokker 28. In the end, the VFW614 went under whereas the Fokker 28 became a reasonable success and later became the even more successful Fokker 70/100.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:47 pm

Shame. Gulf Air's livery would look spectacular on a C-Series.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:48 am

Varsity1 wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
I'm expecting at least a couple more cancellations for the CSeries. There are still a few defunct and shaky customers left on the order list that may never get delivered.
I also expect new orders to outpace cancellations...


I don't. Economy is about to enter a down cycle.


Fuel prices are rising. That is good news for aircraft like the CSeries. Airlines will start dumping their older aircraft quicker for more fuel efficient frames.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
juliuswong
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:35 am

Based on the list of customers, these orders seems to be very shaky:
Commitment only:
Air Arabia Jordan- 2
AtlasGlobal- 10
Falko Regional Aircraft- 20
flymojo- 20-> definitely goner....the airlines never started and their AOC expired on 30 May 2016 without any extension sought.
Zhejiang Loong Airlines Co.-20
Undisclosed African airline- 5
Undisclosed European customer- 31
Undisclosed existing customer-7

Firm Order:
Ilyushin Finance Co.-32
Iraqi Airways- 5

I took the list from WIkipedia, might not be accurate.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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janders
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:45 am

L0VE2FLY wrote:

The CSeries was just perfect for GF, a very capable airliner that's small enough to allow them to serve markets too small to be flown by the ME3's bigger birds.


It obviously was not perfect enough now that they are passing on the type.

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Fuel prices are rising. That is good news for aircraft like the CSeries. Airlines will start dumping their older aircraft quicker for more fuel efficient frames.


Also means the MAX/NEO become more attractive as well with their lower seat cost due larger capacity. :old:
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
mdavies06
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:18 am

For a carrier that flies to LHR and CDG occasionally on the A320 series I struggle to see how the C series is not suitable from the route economic perspective. I can't help but feel it is a missed opportunity for them.
 
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LuxuryTravelled
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:32 am

I think the 'undiscolsed European carrier' is Air Baltic
 
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Slug71
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:46 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
I also expect new orders to outpace cancellations...


I don't. Economy is about to enter a down cycle.


Fuel prices are rising. That is good news for aircraft like the CSeries. Airlines will start dumping their older aircraft quicker for more fuel efficient frames.


They're rising for now, but they will fall again. Oil prices are (in general) expected to remain low long term. The push for electric power is a huge threat to oil prices.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:32 am

LuxuryTravelled wrote:
I think the 'undiscolsed European carrier' is Air Baltic


1. Air Baltic announcing the order, by definition, means it's not "undisclosed".
2. Air Baltic ordered 30, while this order is for 31.
3. BBD said (I believe) that this was for a new customer.

I guess we'll see. :-)
-Dave
 
rubiohiguey
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:14 am

Don't forget 60 CS3 by Moxy
 
UGLYRAED
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:42 am

gulf air is known to make bad business decisions and this is one of them
 
Jomar777
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:10 am

UGLYRAED wrote:
gulf air is known to make bad business decisions and this is one of them


Sorry but I do not think so. Nothing related to the C-Series but actually to the fact that they are not financially sound. If you exclude QR and EK, the other airlines on the GCC are not doing particularly well. The Blockade of Qatar (would absorb a lot of flights) plus the general scenario in ME is not great at present short haul wise.

I expct Gulf Air really wanted the frames but simply cannot afford the cost plus operiational expenses to put those into service at present. By committing to Airbus frames, which they already fly, those operational costs do leave their forecasts and they can slightly renew the fleet. I expect that they will dispose of old frames rather than expand.
 
su184
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:31 am

Were those frames for manline GulfAir or their Saudi offspring - SaudiGulf - which has ordered 16 CSeries.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:55 am

janders wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Fuel prices are rising. That is good news for aircraft like the CSeries. Airlines will start dumping their older aircraft quicker for more fuel efficient frames.


Also means the MAX/NEO become more attractive as well with their lower seat cost due larger capacity. :old:


I'd argue it means the exact opposite.

It's more important to minimise trip cost and maximise yield. Which means right-sizing your aircraft --- which means you fly a CS300 instead of an A320.
 
MoReZ84
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:10 am

No room in their network for the CS300 unfortunately plus like other said too expensive to add another subfleet for the time being
 
MoReZ84
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:12 am

UGLYRAED wrote:
gulf air is known to make bad business decisions and this is one of them


I'd usually agree but in this case they made the smart move. They could use the A320s on almost every destination and now they need more widebodies
 
NYCSKYGUY
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:46 am

I wonder if this cancellation as well as some others could be JetBlue's inroad to the C-Series. My guess is B6 would like to order the aircraft (a mix between 100 & 300) but I wonder if the timeframe is hampering a potential order? I think B6 wants out of it's current E190 aircraft ASAP, would they be able to have the Bombardier's on property within the next 2 years given the current slow production rate and already existing orders?
 
juliuswong
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:55 am

su184 wrote:
Were those frames for manline GulfAir or their Saudi offspring - SaudiGulf - which has ordered 16 CSeries.

I think you have gotten Gulf Air and SaudiGulf Air mixed up. SaudiGulf belongs to Qatar Airways Group, an airline to be set up in Saudi Arabia. It never take off with its A320ceo.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
seansasLCY
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:22 am

juliuswong wrote:
su184 wrote:
Were those frames for manline GulfAir or their Saudi offspring - SaudiGulf - which has ordered 16 CSeries.

I think you have gotten Gulf Air and SaudiGulf Air mixed up. SaudiGulf belongs to Qatar Airways Group, an airline to be set up in Saudi Arabia. It never take off with its A320ceo.


Actually I think you have gotten mixed up. Qatar Airways subsidiary was Al Maha. Saudi Gulf appears to be independent but run by a former CEO of Gulf Air.
 
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Slash787
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:05 pm

This is bad news, I assume Iraqi Airways will also cancel their order.
 
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Polot
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:20 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Based on the list of customers, these orders seems to be very shaky:
Commitment only:
Air Arabia Jordan- 2
AtlasGlobal- 10
Falko Regional Aircraft- 20
flymojo- 20-> definitely goner....the airlines never started and their AOC expired on 30 May 2016 without any extension sought.
Zhejiang Loong Airlines Co.-20
Undisclosed African airline- 5
Undisclosed European customer- 31
Undisclosed existing customer-7

Firm Order:
Ilyushin Finance Co.-32
Iraqi Airways- 5

I took the list from WIkipedia, might not be accurate.

Ilyushins order is not completely shaky. They placed some of their planes with Red Wings. Shaky orders in addition to Iraqi are Republic (can’t use them) and Odyssey (probably never getting off the ground).
 
jalarner
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:43 pm

Slash787 wrote:
This is bad news, I assume Iraqi Airways will also cancel their order.


I don't have any supporting links, but I *think* if I remember correctly that Iraqi got these as a trade for an order they had for CRJ7/9?
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directorguy
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:42 pm

Egyptair firmed their order for 12 CS300s
 
trent768
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:45 pm

GA should snatch those slot. They were desperate to dispose their CRK. Maybe BBD would be happy to offer them a buyback scheme to keep the order going
 
rbavfan
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:54 pm

Polot wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Based on the list of customers, these orders seems to be very shaky:
Commitment only:
Air Arabia Jordan- 2
AtlasGlobal- 10
Falko Regional Aircraft- 20
flymojo- 20-> definitely goner....the airlines never started and their AOC expired on 30 May 2016 without any extension sought.
Zhejiang Loong Airlines Co.-20
Undisclosed African airline- 5
Undisclosed European customer- 31
Undisclosed existing customer-7

Firm Order:
Ilyushin Finance Co.-32
Iraqi Airways- 5

I took the list from WIkipedia, might not be accurate.

Ilyushins order is not completely shaky. They placed some of their planes with Red Wings. Shaky orders in addition to Iraqi are Republic (can’t use them) and Odyssey (probably never getting off the ground).


I though they gave up on ever doing the Republic orders already.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:59 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
su184 wrote:
Were those frames for manline GulfAir or their Saudi offspring - SaudiGulf - which has ordered 16 CSeries.

I think you have gotten Gulf Air and SaudiGulf Air mixed up. SaudiGulf belongs to Qatar Airways Group, an airline to be set up in Saudi Arabia. It never take off with its A320ceo.


Actually I think you have gotten mixed up. Qatar Airways subsidiary was Al Maha. Saudi Gulf appears to be independent but run by a former CEO of Gulf Air.

Lolx, I got my mind twisted. Thanks for the correction. Al Maha is QR supposedly subsidiary at Saudi Arabia.

SaudiGulf is third Saudi Arabia-based airline, headed by ex-GF CEO Samer Majali.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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Polot
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:01 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Polot wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Based on the list of customers, these orders seems to be very shaky:
Commitment only:
Air Arabia Jordan- 2
AtlasGlobal- 10
Falko Regional Aircraft- 20
flymojo- 20-> definitely goner....the airlines never started and their AOC expired on 30 May 2016 without any extension sought.
Zhejiang Loong Airlines Co.-20
Undisclosed African airline- 5
Undisclosed European customer- 31
Undisclosed existing customer-7

Firm Order:
Ilyushin Finance Co.-32
Iraqi Airways- 5

I took the list from WIkipedia, might not be accurate.

Ilyushins order is not completely shaky. They placed some of their planes with Red Wings. Shaky orders in addition to Iraqi are Republic (can’t use them) and Odyssey (probably never getting off the ground).


I though they gave up on ever doing the Republic orders already.

They probably have, but the order is still officially on the books.
 
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OA940
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:37 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
I'm expecting at least a couple more cancellations for the CSeries. There are still a few defunct and shaky customers left on the order list that may never get delivered.
I also expect new orders to outpace cancellations...


I don't. Economy is about to enter a down cycle.


So airlines won't order one of the most fuel-efficient and best-performing aircraft of its class in that case? Stick with the older ones? Nah. Also no economy is ''entering a down cycle'' calm down. Just fuel prices rising. Nothing that hasn't happened before.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:53 pm

OA940 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
I also expect new orders to outpace cancellations...


I don't. Economy is about to enter a down cycle.


So airlines won't order one of the most fuel-efficient and best-performing aircraft of its class in that case? Stick with the older ones? Nah.


It depends on how bad their cash flow and credit position is. IIRC, DL, NW, AA, UA, and HP/US didn't order much in the way of new aircraft (relative to fleet size and age) 2001-2008. Try showing that an aircraft pays for itself with fuel savings, with typical utilization and 12-year depreciation.
 
AA94
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:36 pm

NYCSKYGUY wrote:
I wonder if this cancellation as well as some others could be JetBlue's inroad to the C-Series. My guess is B6 would like to order the aircraft (a mix between 100 & 300) but I wonder if the timeframe is hampering a potential order? I think B6 wants out of it's current E190 aircraft ASAP, would they be able to have the Bombardier's on property within the next 2 years given the current slow production rate and already existing orders?


:checkmark:

From what I've heard, delivery timeline is the roadblock at this point. I think B6 thinks the CSeries is the right aircraft for them, but the fact that the E2 is available far sooner is complicating things. If some of these slots were to free up, I could see B6 pouncing.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:10 pm

OA940 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
I also expect new orders to outpace cancellations...


I don't. Economy is about to enter a down cycle.


So airlines won't order one of the most fuel-efficient and best-performing aircraft of its class in that case? Stick with the older ones? Nah. Also no economy is ''entering a down cycle'' calm down. Just fuel prices rising. Nothing that hasn't happened before.


No they won't. CAPEX is the first thing to go in a recession.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
VSMUT
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:16 am

juliuswong wrote:
Based on the list of customers, these orders seems to be very shaky:
Commitment only:
Air Arabia Jordan- 2
AtlasGlobal- 10
Falko Regional Aircraft- 20
flymojo- 20-> definitely goner....the airlines never started and their AOC expired on 30 May 2016 without any extension sought.
Zhejiang Loong Airlines Co.-20
Undisclosed African airline- 5
Undisclosed European customer- 31
Undisclosed existing customer-7

Firm Order:
Ilyushin Finance Co.-32
Iraqi Airways- 5

I took the list from WIkipedia, might not be accurate.


The Air Tanzania order for 2 CS300 is as good as dead as well. Got caught up in a political fallout between Canada and Magufuli.
 
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janders
Posts: 296
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:18 pm

GF CEO Kresimir Kucko says "The [2011] agreement does not fit within our strategy. We are focused on other fleet types."
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
juliuswong
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:52 am

With Airbus now formally in charge of A220 program, I think the new team will get the orders in order.

After doing some checking, these are some of orders that are in doubt.
Republic Airways Holdings- 40 A220-300
Odyssey Airlines- 10 A220-100
Iraqi Airways- 5 A220-300
Lease Corporation International- 3 A220-100 and 17 A220-300
Macquarie AirFinance- 40 A220-300
Tanzanian Government Flight Agency- 2 A220-300
Falcon Aviation Services- 2 A220-300

Feel free to correct me if I made mistake.

As what Polot has mentioned earlier, the 32 firm order + 10 options Ilyushin order placed on 4 June 2013 is now with GTLK State Transport Leasing Co. On 5 August 2016, they cancelled 12 firm + 10 options, leaving 20 firm order. Then they cancelled another six on 31 March 2018, leaving 14 firm order.

GTLK State Transport Leasing Co. currently holds an order for six A220-300. Not sure where the other eight order went to.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 8071
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:20 am

Leasing companies are probably going to benefit from the Airbus takeover of the CSeries. More validation for the program is great for everybody. If GF were to change their mind in a few years, they could always lease.
-Dave
 
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LockheedBBD
Posts: 494
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:20 am

VSMUT wrote:

The Air Tanzania order for 2 CS300 is as good as dead as well. Got caught up in a political fallout between Canada and Magufuli.


Bombardier delivered a new Q400 to Air Tanzania only 3-4 months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Viye_mwLSc

This was a few months after this incident in November 2017: https://www.reuters.com/article/tanzani ... SL3N1NC5MI

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