In the past, I have noticed middle eastern carriers send equipment of far less quality to Asian/African destinations than it would to an American or European destination. Is this a valid observation?

It's easier to distinguish this as airlines like Emirates and QR have 777's for routes to both Sri Lanka and North America. However business class to Sri Lanka tend to be very basic and doesn't have the luxuries offered by the same product to New York. It seems as if there is like a 5 year difference in the cabin even in economy class. I have noticed this a couple of times but I sense this is changing as A7-BAH went to both Houston and Colombo in the past week.

Is this true with other carriers as well?

IAH forever has received the old business class, they tend to use the 777lr for cargo specific reason. Though sometime they switch to 777w, recently they sent the new Qsuites business class to IAH.

ULA340 wrote:

In the past, I have noticed middle eastern carriers send equipment of far less quality to Asian/African destinations than it would to an American or European destination. Is this a valid observation?

It's easier to distinguish this as airlines like Emirates and QR have 777's for routes to both Sri Lanka and North America. However business class to Sri Lanka tend to be very basic and doesn't have the luxuries offered by the same product to New York. It seems as if there is like a 5 year difference in the cabin even in economy class. I have noticed this a couple of times but I sense this is changing as A7-BAH went to both Houston and Colombo in the past week.

Is this true with other carriers as well?

Perhaps it has something to do with the stage length to Sri Lanka being a fraction of New York from DXB or DOH.

"Parker says the airline “tries to isolate” the bad customer experience aircraft to a few places so they don’t disappoint customers, and “where they’re the least painful to our most important customers, don’t go tell your customers that.” (emphasis mine) The yields are lower for Lima than London, so Lima gets the old aircraft."

On why Lima gets the old 763s

https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.co ... ed-sooner/

ULA340 wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

First Nigerian poster to chip in, in 3, 2, 1....

Ah yes IIRC there was an issue with BA sending old 747s or 767s right?

I think that was Delta. The government protested the downgrade from a B777 to a B767. I think they even tried to blackmail DL which resulted in the suspension of a route.

Nairobi does seem to get older QR and EY A320’s

Blerg wrote:

ULA340 wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

First Nigerian poster to chip in, in 3, 2, 1....

Ah yes IIRC there was an issue with BA sending old 747s or 767s right?

I think that was Delta. The government protested the downgrade from a B777 to a B767. I think they even tried to blackmail DL which resulted in the suspension of a route.

Exactly. Even though it was the same 767 most of DL's European stations got at the time.

I think it is standard operating practice for airlines to send their newest and nicest planes to high profit destinations, which happen to be in rich countries. This is not discrimination but a business decision. In addition, there are routes on which cabins get worn out faster because of the clientele. If I was an airline, I wouldn't be sending my newest planes to India for example. I'm writing this after several trips to India where I have flown on factory new planes which were already severely worn out on the inside, sometimes after only a couple of months in service.

The OP is mistaken. Airlines don't discriminate against Sri Lankans because they are Sri Lankans. Airlines send more premium configurations to more premium markets such as JFK, LHR, NRT, and HKG, because those markets make more money with those planes. It's all about the bottom line. It's all about the money.

Antarius wrote:

ULA340 wrote:

In the past, I have noticed middle eastern carriers send equipment of far less quality to Asian/African destinations than it would to an American or European destination. Is this a valid observation?

It's easier to distinguish this as airlines like Emirates and QR have 777's for routes to both Sri Lanka and North America. However business class to Sri Lanka tend to be very basic and doesn't have the luxuries offered by the same product to New York. It seems as if there is like a 5 year difference in the cabin even in economy class. I have noticed this a couple of times but I sense this is changing as A7-BAH went to both Houston and Colombo in the past week.

Is this true with other carriers as well?

Perhaps it has something to do with the stage length to Sri Lanka being a fraction of New York from DXB or DOH.

I'm sure that has much to do with it as well.

gatibosgru wrote:

"Parker says the airline “tries to isolate” the bad customer experience aircraft to a few places so they don’t disappoint customers, and “where they’re the least painful to our most important customers, don’t go tell your customers that.” (emphasis mine) The yields are lower for Lima than London, so Lima gets the old aircraft."

On why Lima gets the old 763s

https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.co ... ed-sooner/

Honestly, I think Parker misspoke. AA doesn't really have anything better to send to LIM than a 763; do you expect them to send a 787 or 777? Once the 763 is retired, expect only 752 and/or A321neo there.

Blerg wrote:

ULA340 wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

First Nigerian poster to chip in, in 3, 2, 1....

Ah yes IIRC there was an issue with BA sending old 747s or 767s right?

I think that was Delta. The government protested the downgrade from a B777 to a B767. I think they even tried to blackmail DL which resulted in the suspension of a route.

DL's 763 isn't that bad; I'd take it over a 777. Not so at AA where the 777 is much better.

I think you could argue that it isn’t just aircraft type that airlines makes a decision on, it’s also which gates some flights depart from.

From the 5 or 6 daily flights to KHI EK used to send one of its A330.

Back when they used to fly, Disappointing to see SQ 777-200 to Khi because it looked like a small aircraft.

However LX once sent their new A340 to Khi, that was nice.

Antarius wrote:

Perhaps it has something to do with the stage length to Sri Lanka being a fraction of New York from DXB or DOH.

More than 5 daily flights to CMB. I think it should be comparable. Maybe not F class passengers like NY routes but definitely very high yields of Business and economy

Swadian wrote:

The OP is mistaken. Airlines don't discriminate against Sri Lankans because they are Sri Lankans. Airlines send more premium configurations to more premium markets such as JFK, LHR, NRT, and HKG, because those markets make more money with those planes. It's all about the bottom line. It's all about the money.

I agree money is the bottom line but CMB is premium in it's own way. More than 5 daily flights from QR and EK, with nearly 100% yields in business and economy (as per my personal experiences). They should maintain a consistent product.

ULA340 wrote:

Swadian wrote:

The OP is mistaken. Airlines don't discriminate against Sri Lankans because they are Sri Lankans. Airlines send more premium configurations to more premium markets such as JFK, LHR, NRT, and HKG, because those markets make more money with those planes. It's all about the bottom line. It's all about the money.

I agree money is the bottom line but CMB is premium in it's own way. More than 5 daily flights from QR and EK, with nearly 100% yields in business and economy (as per my personal experiences). They should maintain a consistent product.

Kidding, right? CMB has been known for decades for being one of the lowest yielding destinations in Asia, for fares to Europe and North America.
"Nearly 100% yields..."? Care to explain, please?

ULA340 wrote:

Swadian wrote:

The OP is mistaken. Airlines don't discriminate against Sri Lankans because they are Sri Lankans. Airlines send more premium configurations to more premium markets such as JFK, LHR, NRT, and HKG, because those markets make more money with those planes. It's all about the bottom line. It's all about the money.

I agree money is the bottom line but CMB is premium in it's own way. More than 5 daily flights from QR and EK, with nearly 100% yields in business and economy (as per my personal experiences). They should maintain a consistent product.

What is a consistent product? For a 4 hour flight why do you need a suite with pajamas and turndown service? Sure, EK and QR could offer that, but that results in higher costs (in terms of less seats due to a more premium configuration etc.) which means people will choose to fly another airline.

nearly 100% yields in business and economy (as per my personal experiences) --- "my personal experiences" are not what route planning is based on.

As for CMB being highly premium... thats an opinion clearly not backed up by any numbers.

ULA340 wrote:

...More than 5 daily flights from QR and EK, with nearly 100% yields in business and economy (as per my personal experiences). They should maintain a consistent product.

I think you are confusing LF with yield, unless you work for both QR and EK and have deep access to economic balances and all sort of private and confidential stuff, which I'm going to take the bullet and bet you don't.

Jayafe wrote:

ULA340 wrote:

...More than 5 daily flights from QR and EK, with nearly 100% yields in business and economy (as per my personal experiences). They should maintain a consistent product.

I think you are confusing LF with yield, unless you work for both QR and EK and have deep access to economic balances and all sort of private and confidential stuff, which I'm going to take the bullet and bet you don't.

If he had that access, he would certainly not mix up yield and load factor...

You guys got me, I wasn't aware of the distinction and I do apologize for the mix up haha

One of ET's selling points is that they fly their newest and greatest aircraft to many African destinations. You can find the A350 on routes like ACC, ABV, HRE, FIH and more.

iadadd wrote:

One of ET's selling points is that they fly their newest and greatest aircraft to many African destinations. You can find the A350 on routes like ACC, ABV, HRE, FIH and more.

Yes, and many of those destinations aren't bad at all, yield-wise. It makes sense to keep those customers happy

When reading the topic, I thought the topic author meant if airlines treated passengers a certain way depending on the route. I used to see this a lot at American Airlines when they used to fly their 4-5 daily A300s from JFK to SDQ or SJU. I even heard some AA employees at JFK refer to these flights as "The Roach Coach". From the late 90s to mid-2000s service was so bad on these flights I dared think it was on purpose!

Airlines do and that is good business. The more competitive the flight, the better the product should be. The opposite is also true. Then there is also utilization, airlines fit in short flights between longhaul.

Now if the airlines had the identical offering ala Ryanair/Southwest/any of the single class airlines, then it is 1 size fits all.

PEK777 wrote:

Refurbishing the cabin after carrying a ship full of Africans or Punjabis can't be cheap.

Wonder what we would do without such meticulously thoughtful insight

MalevTU134 wrote:

iadadd wrote:

One of ET's selling points is that they fly their newest and greatest aircraft to many African destinations. You can find the A350 on routes like ACC, ABV, HRE, FIH and more.

Yes, and many of those destinations aren't bad at all, yield-wise. It makes sense to keep those customers happy

It only makes sense to ensure the highest yeild passengers have the best experience. I don't care if that is my home airport or one I have trouble placing on a map (there aren't many). If a competitor one ups... Lost business. But if the yeild is poor... You get what you get and don't throw a fit.

Lightsaber

As any businesses, product is influenced by demand, pretty simple stuff.

Well AA still sends Old POS, on the PHL - AMS flight. Even on MIA to SJU, that 757 is just ancient. Lufthansa flew the A300/A330 to KHI and LHE, during 2007 to 2009.

Interesting thing it said in the article

The next question was “why not fly to more northeast markets from DFW” like Buffalo? And the answer is that longer flights take more aircraft time, so trade off with multiple frequencies to closer destinations. You need to be able to earn more revenue off of a longer distance flight to not only cover its higher cost, but to cover the opportunity cost of what else you could do with that aircraft.

But doesn't Delta do this from Atlanta? Delta has a nonstop ATL-BUF.

What's the difference?

yonikasz wrote:

Interesting thing it said in the article

The next question was “why not fly to more northeast markets from DFW” like Buffalo? And the answer is that longer flights take more aircraft time, so trade off with multiple frequencies to closer destinations. You need to be able to earn more revenue off of a longer distance flight to not only cover its higher cost, but to cover the opportunity cost of what else you could do with that aircraft.

But doesn't Delta do this from Atlanta? Delta has a nonstop ATL-BUF.

What's the difference?

Eeh?? What article was that?

ET is an interesting case as to North America, it appears to be almost always B788s (with the occasional B77L sub) that gets sent to the Americas, while the new Airbus equipment goes elsewhere, except to the Far East where the B77W gets sent. Why does ET send the B789 to India instead of the A359? Then again, they need all the wide-body lift they can get.

Within the USA, one sees that discrimination domestically primarily is on JFK/EWR to LAX/SFO a lot.

UA: pmUA 757 MINT, pmUA high-density and international 772s
DL: international aircraft only except the 777
AA: specially-configured A321s
B6: Mint A321s

Another example is probably YVR-NYC on AC (forced in part because of CX). For many years, Air Canada flew an A319 on the route. Now, it's a B789 because AC needs the J and W seats. Also, MEX-JFK on AM...it's Aeromexico's only wide-body route less than 7 hours in length on a route where it sends 737s on all other frequencies (daily now, it's 3x B738 and 1x B789).

aemoreira1981 wrote:

ET is an interesting case as to North America, it appears to be almost always B788s (with the occasional B77L sub) that gets sent to the Americas, while the new Airbus equipment goes elsewhere, except to the Far East where the B77W gets sent. Why does ET send the B789 to India instead of the A359? Then again, they need all the wide-body lift they can get.

CAN is the only Far East destination that constantly gets 77W, PEK is now on the 359
ET's Europe, Middle East, and India flights frequently switch aircraft, In any week BOM could get 77L,359,788, or 789. ET is notorious for last minute changes

IAD is 77W in high season, and 77L in low season. It hasn't gotten regular 788 service in at least a few years.
YYZ is sort of haphazard between 77L and 788, with more 77L in the summer
EWR,ORD,LAX are guaranteed to be 788

However, what's interesting about ET's North America operation is that it only uses its original 788s which most (10/13) don't have full flat business class; ET has been stubborn at updating those planes despite North America usually being a market that receives the best aircraft.

BA sends its old tacky 747s on its lucrative LON > NYC route for some reason.... probably because the quality of competitors on the route is so bad

Galwayman wrote:

BA sends its old tacky 747s on its lucrative LON > NYC route for some reason.... probably because the quality of competitors on the route is so bad

Actually, those tend to be the latest retrofits in an ultra-high-J configuration (86 J seats) and because frequency matters. This route will likely transition to the B78J first.

I have mostly seen this on African routes.

Galwayman wrote:

BA sends its old tacky 747s on its lucrative LON > NYC route for some reason.... probably because the quality of competitors on the route is so bad

These have been renovated and are in a very high premium config. What exactly is tacky about them?

I remember when the EK crash happened from India, there were accusations that EK sends it oldest planes to India which they did especially with 772/3 but if you look at the airframes used, it's definitely a mix of old and new depending on the city.

Being a regular on EK to NBO, I usually see amongst the newest 77Ws in the fleet on at least 1 of the daily flights and I've also noticed new frames going to EBB, DAR, ADD with A6-EPx regs. I think NBO has pretty high LF and yield in Y and J. For the longest time and even now, USA routes with 77W's receive the older ULR aircraft until the new J equipped ones came online which we a little more regularly but always a chance you'll end up with an older frame esp to SEA, MCO.

QR is a mix bag to NBO as they have 2 flights on the A320 and 1 A330 so there's every chance you'll get an older frame w/o AVOD but there are plenty of European routes that run this risk. EY has 1 daily and their cabins on the A320 are consistent and acceptable for a 4.5 hour flight IMO. Most of my EY flights from JFK were on older 777/A340's so I can hardly say they sent only their best airframes to the USA until more recently.

At the end of the day, the airlines will use the most appropriate aircraft that can do the mission and cater for the demand and not simply discriminate in the simplest sense of the word.

Even US used to get relatively old 77Ws because for some time EK was in cost-cutting mode and took new deliveries without CRAs and low MTOW license.

AF sends old 777/A330 to IAH. with 2-3-2 business class. I figured such prestige route that IAH even has it own lounge, that AF would send the new 1 -2-1 business class seating. Sometimes IAH gets the new business class, though I am not sure if AF finished configuring all the air crafts.

LH658 wrote:

AF sends old 777/A330 to IAH. with 2-3-2 business class. I figured such prestige route that IAH even has it own lounge, that AF would send the new 1 -2-1 business class seating. Sometimes IAH gets the new business class, though I am not sure if AF finished configuring all the air crafts.

The same thing can be said about the ORY-based 777s (JFK sees one daily). The 77Ws that come to JFK are 5-class frames (F-J-W-Y+-Y).

I expect that ORY is lower yield vs IAH or JFK.

LH658 wrote:

I expect that ORY is lower yield vs IAH or JFK.

?? ORY is one of AF's bases. ORY to where would be lower yielding than IAH or JFK (I guess you mean from PAR on AF?)?
Contrary to what you may believe, average yield on IAH-Europe is not stellar. At least it wasn't when I was involved in that part of the business (granted, some 10 years ago). Oil traffic is good yield, of course, but that is a small fraction of passengers on IAH-Europe, and mostly to a few specific destinations. Other US cities are (were) vastly better.

LH658 wrote:

AF sends old 777/A330 to IAH. with 2-3-2 business class. I figured such prestige route that IAH even has it own lounge, that AF would send the new 1 -2-1 business class seating. Sometimes IAH gets the new business class, though I am not sure if AF finished configuring all the air crafts.

Why would AF consider Houston a prestige route? There is no logic to that.

LH658 wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

LH658 wrote:

AF sends old 777/A330 to IAH. with 2-3-2 business class. I figured such prestige route that IAH even has it own lounge, that AF would send the new 1 -2-1 business class seating. Sometimes IAH gets the new business class, though I am not sure if AF finished configuring all the air crafts.

Why would AF consider Houston a prestige route? There is no logic to that.

Yes I would. AF been serving IAH, I Think from the 1960's, and KLM been serving since the 1950s. They have there own lounge at IAH, During peak season they serve first class on the route.

I have no doubt you would ...but why would AF? Lots of destinations have been served longer than that, for whatever it's worth. As you say, F class isn't even sent all year to Houston. Houston is one among many long-haul destinations for AF. There is certainly nothing "premium" about it.

MalevTU134 wrote:

LH658 wrote:

AF sends old 777/A330 to IAH. with 2-3-2 business class. I figured such prestige route that IAH even has it own lounge, that AF would send the new 1 -2-1 business class seating. Sometimes IAH gets the new business class, though I am not sure if AF finished configuring all the air crafts.

Why would AF consider Houston a prestige route? There is no logic to that.

Yes I would. AF been serving IAH, I Think from the 1960's, and KLM been serving since the 1950s. They have there own lounge at IAH, During peak season they serve first class on the route.

MalevTU134 wrote:

LH658 wrote:

I expect that ORY is lower yield vs IAH or JFK.

?? ORY is one of AF's bases. ORY to where would be lower yielding than IAH or JFK (I guess you mean from PAR on AF?)?
Contrary to what you may believe, average yield on IAH-Europe is not stellar. At least it wasn't when I was involved in that part of the business (granted, some 10 years ago). Oil traffic is good yield, of course, but that is a small fraction of passengers on IAH-Europe, and mostly to a few specific destinations. Other US cities are (were) vastly better.

If you see DEL to ORY or ORY to DXB, and etc then we can talk about how ORY more prestige.

LH658 wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

LH658 wrote:

I expect that ORY is lower yield vs IAH or JFK.

?? ORY is one of AF's bases. ORY to where would be lower yielding than IAH or JFK (I guess you mean from PAR on AF?)?
Contrary to what you may believe, average yield on IAH-Europe is not stellar. At least it wasn't when I was involved in that part of the business (granted, some 10 years ago). Oil traffic is good yield, of course, but that is a small fraction of passengers on IAH-Europe, and mostly to a few specific destinations. Other US cities are (were) vastly better.

If you see DEL to ORY or ORY to DXB, and etc then we can talk about how ORY more prestige.

OK, so you are actually talking about DEL and DXB yields compared to IAH yields for AF? O/D from PAR, I guess? I have no numbers, and I doubt anybody on this board will. So what can we talk about?...

gatibosgru wrote:

"Parker says the airline “tries to isolate” the bad customer experience aircraft to a few places so they don’t disappoint customers, and “where they’re the least painful to our most important customers, don’t go tell your customers that.” (emphasis mine) The yields are lower for Lima than London, so Lima gets the old aircraft."

On why Lima gets the old 763s

https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.co ... ed-sooner/

Correct - a 2003 built 767 is inherently older than a 1989 A320. It's like comparing an early 2000's Model T replica to an early 90s Taurus.

In fact - why is anyone in this thread referring to a proper 21st century, state of the art craft like an A320, A330, or 777 as "old"? They all have the latest 21st century technology and the fleets are too young to be replaced.

Emirates flies old B777s to Moscow. Mostly -EB* and EC* series.

Swadian wrote:

The OP is mistaken. Airlines don't discriminate against Sri Lankans because they are Sri Lankans. Airlines send more premium configurations to more premium markets such as JFK, LHR, NRT, and HKG, because those markets make more money with those planes. It's all about the bottom line. It's all about the money.

Antarius wrote:

ULA340 wrote:

In the past, I have noticed middle eastern carriers send equipment of far less quality to Asian/African destinations than it would to an American or European destination. Is this a valid observation?

It's easier to distinguish this as airlines like Emirates and QR have 777's for routes to both Sri Lanka and North America. However business class to Sri Lanka tend to be very basic and doesn't have the luxuries offered by the same product to New York. It seems as if there is like a 5 year difference in the cabin even in economy class. I have noticed this a couple of times but I sense this is changing as A7-BAH went to both Houston and Colombo in the past week.

Is this true with other carriers as well?

Perhaps it has something to do with the stage length to Sri Lanka being a fraction of New York from DXB or DOH.

I'm sure that has much to do with it as well.

gatibosgru wrote:

"Parker says the airline “tries to isolate” the bad customer experience aircraft to a few places so they don’t disappoint customers, and “where they’re the least painful to our most important customers, don’t go tell your customers that.” (emphasis mine) The yields are lower for Lima than London, so Lima gets the old aircraft."

On why Lima gets the old 763s

https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.co ... ed-sooner/

Honestly, I think Parker misspoke. AA doesn't really have anything better to send to LIM than a 763; do you expect them to send a 787 or 777? Once the 763 is retired, expect only 752 and/or A321neo there.

Blerg wrote:

ULA340 wrote:

Ah yes IIRC there was an issue with BA sending old 747s or 767s right?

I think that was Delta. The government protested the downgrade from a B777 to a B767. I think they even tried to blackmail DL which resulted in the suspension of a route.

DL's 763 isn't that bad; I'd take it over a 777. Not so at AA where the 777 is much better.

This it's purely a matter of "Putting your Best Foot Forward" . If the Route was making "Killer profits and had Killer Competition"?
Then you put up your biggest "bang for the buck". On a route that's just being flown to "cover expenses"?? Then maybe a "2nd line player" with an airplane that's fully amortized and other than the Crew, doesn't have a Lot of value, except for the revenue it generates. Either way you can make money. Keep in mind though that some airlines don't have much of an option. They have to fly what they have that can do the job.

ORY-JFK gets the latest AIr France cabin config („BEST“ with 1-2-1 business class). That plane usually rotates through ORY-JFK and ORY-CAY routes. It‘s the latter which is a surprise, as AF usually only sends its older and much smaller J class-configured 77Ws on routes to the Overseas Departments.

Other than that, yes, AF does discriminate. They have in fact four segments:

1. „Super yield“ - gets 77W First Class and BEST Business Class. (Some) flights to JFK, GRU, HND, JNB, BEY, DXB, LAX, SFO, HKG, PVG, PEK, LAD... A380s have First but not new Business
2. „High yield“ - gets 772 or 789 with BEST Business Class but no First Class. (The other) flights to the above destinations, plus a few others such as EZE, SCL, YVR, PTY. And ORY-JFK and ORY-CAY!
3. „Medium yield“ - gets 77W or 332 with the old NEV Business Class. YUL, mostly MIA, interestingly ATL, DTW, GIG, a number of African destinations
4. „COI routes“ - 77W with only 14 seats in NEV Business Class. Sent to the „Caraibes-Ocean Indien“ network of overseas departments (FDF, PTP, RUN). I know that YUL and BKK at some stage also had those planes, not sure it‘s still the case

I obviously don‘t have exact yield numbers for these destinations, and there are certainly other elements that play into which plane goes to which destination (availability/rotation of frames for instance). And there are temporary shifts. For instance SFO does not get First Class all year round, and for a while JFK had a mix of 332 (old Business Class), A380 (First and old Business), B77Ws in medium yield config, B772 with new Business config. Atlanta sometimes gets BEST. And so on. But directionally this was s right

I guess I can say I was a bit flattered when AA started sending its 32Bs from DFW to replace almost all the MD80s it sent from there while other medium sized cities still had a slew of dogs (that's not a derogatory term; I just like calling them that). This was right around August 2016 when they retired 20 of them. We had no frequencies at one point. I thought it was weird using a pretty new jet on such a short route (DFW-AUS) while something like DFW-STL still had mostly MD80s.

I still prefer the MD80 though as an avgeek. I guess it's a "discriminating aircraft" as most people don't like them for their noise.