Northwest Airlines Seattle Focus City?

UA857 · Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:14 am

Was SEA ever a focus city for Northwest?

spinotter · Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:24 am

UA857 wrote:
Was SEA ever a focus city for Northwest?

I don't believe that the term focus city was in common use in the heyday of NW's existence, correct me if I am wrong. But SEA has always been an important city for NW. Here is an a.net thread from 16 years ago questioning whether https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=173649 Northwest had a hub at Seattle. They had transpacific service to Tokyo, Osaka, and Seoul at one time, and later transatlantic service to Amsterdam - also to Honolulu, and nonstops to JFK in the day, and many flights to PDX, GEG, MSP, ORD, etc. But as one poster commented in the older thread, they had only eight gates, so what kind of hub was that? A focus city perhaps, as we would now term it.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:07 pm

It would fit the definition of the marketing term as focus city for NW.

From the time NW and RC merged up through the late 90s the hubs were DTW, MSP, MEM, NRT with de facto focus cities in BOS, SEA, HNL, and ANC (mostly due to cargo), and AMS.

BOS lost focus city status when they dropped non AMS TATL service.

In the 2000s IND became a focus city operation, that they ultimately pulled down, and then DL built back up.

Midwestindy · Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:17 pm

I think it was officially/un-officially a focus city
Either way, the NW network from SEA in the mid-2000s was impressive: Honolulu, Seoul-Incheon, Tokyo-Narita, Amsterdam+ the usual MEM, IND, MSP, DTW

Cubsrule · Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:51 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
In the 2000s IND became a focus city operation, that they ultimately pulled down, and then DL built back up.

The operations at MKE and IND in that timeframe were fairly similar, although FL and then WN did more of the building back up at MKE whereas DL has grown more at IND.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:42 pm

Yep, IND and MKE were built-up as focus cities as a part of their heartland strategy.

To a lesser extent, GRR, MSN, FNT, DSM we’re part of that strategy that received p2p service to DCA, LGA, or Florida.

jetero · Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:48 pm

For a short period of time in the mid 1980s, did NW fly DFW-SEA or just DFW-SFO to connect to Asia?

bfitzflyer · Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:52 pm

BOS , in the 80's TPA and DCA for a couple years after getting Eastern assets were also focus cities.

727LOVER · Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:00 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
BOS , in the 80's TPA and DCA for a couple years after getting Eastern assets were also focus cities.

I would define TPA as a hub.....there were banks...4 each day.

departedflights · Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:21 pm

jetero wrote:
For a short period of time in the mid 1980s, did NW fly DFW-SEA or just DFW-SFO to connect to Asia?

Dallas/Fort Worth to San Francisco, for sure.

I'm not so sure about Dallas/Fort Worth to Seattle, though. I've looked through about 25 Northwest timetables spanning the 1980s and I don't see it listed anywhere.

The DFW-SFO route only lasted about a year. It first appeared in the April 28, 1985 timetable and last appeared in the April 27, 1986 timetable.

It actually operated with a 747 and continued on to Tokyo after San Francisco.

jetero · Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:31 pm

departedflights wrote:
jetero wrote:
For a short period of time in the mid 1980s, did NW fly DFW-SEA or just DFW-SFO to connect to Asia?

Dallas/Fort Worth to San Francisco, for sure.

I'm not so sure about Dallas/Fort Worth to Seattle.

The DFW-SFO route only lasted about a year. It first appeared in the April 28, 1985 timetable and last appeared in the April 27, 1986 timetable.

It actually operated with a 747 and continued on to Tokyo after San Francisco.

Thanks. Such an odd route. Seems like NW may have done DFW-LAX at one point, too.

Around then, NW didn’t even serve IAH (or HOU) with passenger aircraft but did with a freighter.

UA857 · Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:34 pm

If DL/NW didn't merge would NW have a hub at SEA?

msiebert09 · Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:38 pm

Quick search of Departed Flights yields this...

http://www.departedflights.com/NW060983.html

N717TW · Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:04 pm

UA857 wrote:
If DL/NW didn't merge would NW have a hub at SEA?

Probably a NW/AS focus city operation. If DL/NW didn't happen, UA/DL would likely have. NW/CO, already tight, would likely have ended up in each other hands but would have lacked a west coast hub and therefore would really have needed AS.

910A · Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:53 am

Midwestindy wrote:
I think it was officially/un-officially a focus city
Either way, the NW network from SEA in the mid-2000s was impressive: Honolulu, Seoul-Incheon, Tokyo-Narita, Amsterdam+ the usual MEM, IND, MSP, DTW

Are you aware that ICN service was a 1-stop from NRT NW #7? NW never served ICN non-stop from SEA. When they flew to Seoul non-stop from SEA it was to Gimpo.

MIflyer12 · Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:53 am

msiebert09 wrote:
Quick search of Departed Flights yields this...

http://www.departedflights.com/NW060983.html

A quick look shows 12 destinations. Who wants to call that a focus city?

drdisque · Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:03 am

NW officially called SEA a "Gateway City" in 2000's. Same as LAX.

jetero · Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:31 am

departedflights wrote:
jetero wrote:
For a short period of time in the mid 1980s, did NW fly DFW-SEA or just DFW-SFO to connect to Asia?

Dallas/Fort Worth to San Francisco, for sure.

I'm not so sure about Dallas/Fort Worth to Seattle, though. I've looked through about 25 Northwest timetables spanning the 1980s and I don't see it listed anywhere.

The DFW-SFO route only lasted about a year. It first appeared in the April 28, 1985 timetable and last appeared in the April 27, 1986 timetable.

It actually operated with a 747 and continued on to Tokyo after San Francisco.

Off topic (apologies) but can anyone shed a light on the history of DFW-Asia nonstop service? Was TG to NRT via SEA the first? Or did this NW nonstop service predate? When did AA begin the SP service?

What was first Asia-Mainland US nonstop route? SFO? Followed by either LAX or SEA? Then JFK? Then ORD? Or DTW? Was next gateway DFW or IAD? Or MSP?

I guess PDX had service too somewhere in between that.

jetero · Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:33 am

drdisque wrote:
NW officially called SEA a "Gateway City" in 2000's. Same as LAX.

SFO as well?

I remember the SFO World Club in Concourse A. Nice facility, but the World Clubs were always nice (at least the ones I went to).

jetero · Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:50 am

jonair8 wrote:
I would also go as far as to say that DL's current SEA hub is a product of NW's former influence there, post-merger.

I don’t think that’s going far at all, in fact I don’t think it’s even up for debate.

jonair8 · Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:51 am

The current DL hangar in SEA was also a former NW property. I'm assuming that SEA was also a maintenance base, in addition to being a pilot and flight attendant domicile.

I would also go as far as to say that DL's current SEA hub is a product of NW's former influence there, post-merger.

departedflights · Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:27 pm

jetero wrote:
Off topic (apologies) but can anyone shed a light on the history of DFW-Asia nonstop service? Was TG to NRT via SEA the first? Or did this NW nonstop service predate? When did AA begin the SP service?

I don't know exactly when Thai began service to DFW, but their DFW-Seattle-Tokyo-Bangkok service was already showing in the July 1, 1983 Official Airline Guide. So it definitely started before the Northwest DFW-San Francisco-Tokyo route in 1985.

American's DFW-Tokyo service began in the spring of 1987.

EvanWSFO · Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:31 pm

jetero wrote:
departedflights wrote:
jetero wrote:
For a short period of time in the mid 1980s, did NW fly DFW-SEA or just DFW-SFO to connect to Asia?

Dallas/Fort Worth to San Francisco, for sure.

I'm not so sure about Dallas/Fort Worth to Seattle, though. I've looked through about 25 Northwest timetables spanning the 1980s and I don't see it listed anywhere.

The DFW-SFO route only lasted about a year. It first appeared in the April 28, 1985 timetable and last appeared in the April 27, 1986 timetable.

It actually operated with a 747 and continued on to Tokyo after San Francisco.

Off topic (apologies) but can anyone shed a light on the history of DFW-Asia nonstop service? Was TG to NRT via SEA the first? Or did this NW nonstop service predate? When did AA begin the SP service?

What was first Asia-Mainland US nonstop route? SFO? Followed by either LAX or SEA? Then JFK? Then ORD? Or DTW? Was next gateway DFW or IAD? Or MSP?

I guess PDX had service too somewhere in between that.

I was living in Dallas at the time. The NW flight started some time after TG stopped its SEA-NRT-BKK service. AA finally kicked in with nonstops when they acquired their 74L's. (not sure what year)

EvanWSFO · Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:33 pm

In the early 70's, a large majority of their flights at SEA were on widebodies. They ran multiple D10's to PDX and GEG plus quite a few other routes.

jetero · Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:46 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
jetero wrote:
departedflights wrote:

Dallas/Fort Worth to San Francisco, for sure.

I'm not so sure about Dallas/Fort Worth to Seattle, though. I've looked through about 25 Northwest timetables spanning the 1980s and I don't see it listed anywhere.

The DFW-SFO route only lasted about a year. It first appeared in the April 28, 1985 timetable and last appeared in the April 27, 1986 timetable.

It actually operated with a 747 and continued on to Tokyo after San Francisco.

Off topic (apologies) but can anyone shed a light on the history of DFW-Asia nonstop service? Was TG to NRT via SEA the first? Or did this NW nonstop service predate? When did AA begin the SP service?

What was first Asia-Mainland US nonstop route? SFO? Followed by either LAX or SEA? Then JFK? Then ORD? Or DTW? Was next gateway DFW or IAD? Or MSP?

I guess PDX had service too somewhere in between that.

I was living in Dallas at the time. The NW flight started some time after TG stopped its SEA-NRT-BKK service. AA finally kicked in with nonstops when they acquired their 74L's. (not sure what year)

Thanks guys ... do you happen to know when JL started (first time) and KE? KE wasn’t originally nonstop, was it?

departedflights · Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:01 pm

jetero wrote:
Thanks guys ... do you happen to know when JL started (first time) and KE? KE wasn’t originally nonstop, was it?

Japan Air Lines first served DFW from March 1999 through October 2001.

n7371f · Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:28 am

Correct. NW built the hangar/cargo facility with the plan of A330 maintenance (along with 757's).

We'll never know but there was a lot of chatter before the merger that NW was eyeing the Dreamliner out of SEA. SYD was one of the routes that came up a lot.

jonair8 wrote:
The current DL hangar in SEA was also a former NW property. I'm assuming that SEA was also a maintenance base, in addition to being a pilot and flight attendant domicile.

I would also go as far as to say that DL's current SEA hub is a product of NW's former influence there, post-merger.

452QX · Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:04 am

n7371f wrote:
Correct. NW built the hangar/cargo facility with the plan of A330 maintenance (along with 757's).

We'll never know but there was a lot of chatter before the merger that NW was eyeing the Dreamliner out of SEA. SYD was one of the routes that came up a lot.

jonair8 wrote:
The current DL hangar in SEA was also a former NW property. I'm assuming that SEA was also a maintenance base, in addition to being a pilot and flight attendant domicile.

I would also go as far as to say that DL's current SEA hub is a product of NW's former influence there, post-merger.

Correct, SEA is an A330 base from the end of NW. DL's S gates are formerly NW, and you can still see old towbars and whatnot lying around down here that clearly used to say 'NORTHWEST'

jetero · Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:15 am

departedflights wrote:
jetero wrote:
Thanks guys ... do you happen to know when JL started (first time) and KE? KE wasn’t originally nonstop, was it?

Japan Air Lines first served DFW from March 1999 through October 2001.

Thanks

LHRBFSTrident · Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:35 am

I guess I always assumed the 'Northwest' in 'Northwest Orient' was in connection with their historical Seattle base for trans-pac service...
(but then I didn't grow up in the US: so things like Northwestern University being located in Illinois, or Chicago being in 'The Mid-West' are tough geographical concepts for outsiders to grasp :-)

For instance: NW was flying Stratocruisers through Seattle in the piston era while the terms 'hub' and 'focus city' are associated with deregulation - an event that turned the industry and its vocabulary into something completely new during the 1980s

Whenever I hear of DL operating a new route ex-SEA or see a slew of DL tails along the B concourse at SEA I immediately think: of course - this was an old NW base...

oh and that departed flights route map: EWR-NRT non-stop in 1983...? something tells me they skipped a tech stop to make the map clearer

intotheair · Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:14 am

At their height, who was bigger at SEA: NW or UA?

spinotter · Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:38 am

727LOVER wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
BOS , in the 80's TPA and DCA for a couple years after getting Eastern assets were also focus cities.

I would define TPA as a hub.....there were banks...4 each day.

Yes, but then a very small hub with maybe five flights per bank.

jplatts · Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:17 pm

LHRBFSTrident wrote:
I guess I always assumed the 'Northwest' in 'Northwest Orient' was in connection with their historical Seattle base for trans-pac service...
(but then I didn't grow up in the US: so things like Northwestern University being located in Illinois, or Chicago being in 'The Mid-West' are tough geographical concepts for outsiders to grasp

Northwest Airlines and Northwestern University were both actually named after the Northwest Territory, which was the former U.S. territory that consisted of the portion of Minnesota east of the Mississippi River along with the Midwestern states of Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, and Ohio.

bfitzflyer · Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:42 pm

spinotter wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
BOS , in the 80's TPA and DCA for a couple years after getting Eastern assets were also focus cities.

I would define TPA as a hub.....there were banks...4 each day.

Yes, but then a very small hub with maybe five flights per bank.

JFK, BOS, CLE, DTW, MSP, MKE, ORD, LAX were served northbound and FL was SRQ, RSW, MIA, FLL, PBI, MCO, I might have missed one, but I think that's itl

SPREE34 · Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:24 am

intotheair wrote:
At their height, who was bigger at SEA: NW or UA?

United. They had the whole North Satellite to themselves.

jetero · Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:25 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
spinotter wrote:
727LOVER wrote:

I would define TPA as a hub.....there were banks...4 each day.

Yes, but then a very small hub with maybe five flights per bank.

JFK, BOS, CLE, DTW, MSP, MKE, ORD, LAX were served northbound and FL was SRQ, RSW, MIA, FLL, PBI, MCO, I might have missed one, but I think that's itl

Wasn’t GCM served at one point?

UA857 · Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:06 am

What was NW SEA operation like at the time of merger with DL?

BoeingGuy · Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:28 am

SPREE34 wrote:
intotheair wrote:
At their height, who was bigger at SEA: NW or UA?

United. They had the whole North Satellite to themselves.

Do you have that quantitied or just anecdotal because UA has the N terminal?

n7371f · Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:57 am

NW ran NRT, LHR, AMS nonstop on 330 series.

HNL a couple of times a day with either 2x 753 or a 330 & 753. OGG/KOA on a 753.

MSP, DTW, MEM. IND summer only.

NW Cargo 742 to ANC, ORD, LAX.

UA857 wrote:
What was NW SEA operation like at the time of merger with DL?

BoeingGuy · Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:50 am

n7371f wrote:
NW ran NRT, LHR, AMS nonstop on 330 series.

HNL a couple of times a day with either 2x 753 or a 330 & 753. OGG/KOA on a 753.

MSP, DTW, MEM. IND summer only.

NW Cargo 742 to ANC, ORD, LAX.

UA857 wrote:
What was NW SEA operation like at the time of merger with DL?

Had they already discontinued KIX round 1 by then? I know they did it with a DC-10. I don’t recall if SEA-KIX ever got the A330.

The upcoming SEA-KIX will be the third time, I believe.

PlanesNTrains · Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:14 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
SPREE34 wrote:
intotheair wrote:
At their height, who was bigger at SEA: NW or UA?

United. They had the whole North Satellite to themselves.

Do you have that quantitied or just anecdotal because UA has the N terminal?

Good question. Mid-80's, UA would have planes holding for gates, but NW used a lot of larger planes. UA just seemed to have more volume going through their concourse vs NW, but I don't have numbers for you.

bfitzflyer · Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:50 pm

jetero wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
spinotter wrote:

Yes, but then a very small hub with maybe five flights per bank.

JFK, BOS, CLE, DTW, MSP, MKE, ORD, LAX were served northbound and FL was SRQ, RSW, MIA, FLL, PBI, MCO, I might have missed one, but I think that's itl

Wasn’t GCM served at one point?

After the merger with Republic, when i twas no longer a hub. And sorry for taking this topic off point as it is about Seattle

gwrudolph · Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:58 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
SPREE34 wrote:

United. They had the whole North Satellite to themselves.

Do you have that quantitied or just anecdotal because UA has the N terminal?

Good question. Mid-80's, UA would have planes holding for gates, but NW used a lot of larger planes. UA just seemed to have more volume going through their concourse vs NW, but I don't have numbers for you.

I would bet it was pretty close. United also used many widebody DC10s and some 747s through SEA. At its peak in the early 90s, they probably had upward of 30 flights including LHR, NRT, HKG and I believe JFK. Most of the ORD service was DC10 and some of the DEN service as well.

EA CO AS · Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:27 am

jetero wrote:
jonair8 wrote:
I would also go as far as to say that DL's current SEA hub is a product of NW's former influence there, post-merger.

I don’t think that’s going far at all, in fact I don’t think it’s even up for debate.

Except DL went from 30ish departures a day to over 110 in a year, and that was part of the then-expanded partnership with AS.

EvanWSFO · Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:41 pm

departedflights wrote:
jetero wrote:
Off topic (apologies) but can anyone shed a light on the history of DFW-Asia nonstop service? Was TG to NRT via SEA the first? Or did this NW nonstop service predate? When did AA begin the SP service?

I don't know exactly when Thai began service to DFW, but their DFW-Seattle-Tokyo-Bangkok service was already showing in the July 1, 1983 Official Airline Guide. So it definitely started before the Northwest DFW-San Francisco-Tokyo route in 1985.

American's DFW-Tokyo service began in the spring of 1987.

Pretty sure Thai left the market in 84. NW tried the DFW-SFO-NRT flight for a while as the only same plane service to Asia. Then AA got the a/c to fly it themselves.

EvanWSFO · Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:44 pm

departedflights wrote:
jetero wrote:
Off topic (apologies) but can anyone shed a light on the history of DFW-Asia nonstop service? Was TG to NRT via SEA the first? Or did this NW nonstop service predate? When did AA begin the SP service?

I don't know exactly when Thai began service to DFW, but their DFW-Seattle-Tokyo-Bangkok service was already showing in the July 1, 1983 Official Airline Guide. So it definitely started before the Northwest DFW-San Francisco-Tokyo route in 1985.

American's DFW-Tokyo service began in the spring of 1987.

Pretty sure Thai left the market in 84. NW tried the DFW-SFO-NRT flight for a while as the only same plane service to Asia. Then AA got the a/c to fly it themselves.

MIAFLLPBIFlyer · Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:53 pm

jetero wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
spinotter wrote:

Yes, but then a very small hub with maybe five flights per bank.

JFK, BOS, CLE, DTW, MSP, MKE, ORD, LAX were served northbound and FL was SRQ, RSW, MIA, FLL, PBI, MCO, I might have missed one, but I think that's itl

Wasn’t GCM served at one point?

CUN & MBJ also.

Often forgotten UA had a similar operation at MCO for a while. Florida cities and MEX linked with Northeastern cities. Like 3 banks a day also. Smallish hub like NW @TPA.

MIAFLLPBIFlyer · Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:53 pm

jetero wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
spinotter wrote:

Yes, but then a very small hub with maybe five flights per bank.

JFK, BOS, CLE, DTW, MSP, MKE, ORD, LAX were served northbound and FL was SRQ, RSW, MIA, FLL, PBI, MCO, I might have missed one, but I think that's itl

Wasn’t GCM served at one point?

CUN & MBJ also.

Often forgotten UA had a similar operation at MCO for a while. Florida cities and MEX linked with Northeastern cities. Like 3 banks a day also. Smallish hub like NW @TPA.

bfitzflyer · Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:01 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
jetero wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:

JFK, BOS, CLE, DTW, MSP, MKE, ORD, LAX were served northbound and FL was SRQ, RSW, MIA, FLL, PBI, MCO, I might have missed one, but I think that's itl

Wasn’t GCM served at one point?

CUN & MBJ also.

Often forgotten UA had a similar operation at MCO for a while. Florida cities and MEX linked with Northeastern cities. Like 3 banks a day also. Smallish hub like NW @TPA.

CUN & MBJ were flown post merger with Republic and the rest of the hub/focus city was gone.

EvanWSFO · Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:15 pm

In the 70's, NW had 30ish departures from SEA. Well over half were on a 747 or D10

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