I believe I am seeing A350's now going to YVR, but is that just from Munich (and not Frankfurt)?

SEA is going to an A330 this fall. Is this because of D Checks on the older 744's? Or just to cut seats in the off-season? I am little surprised since this is the only Star Alliance flight to Europe (unless I am missing one) from SEA.

Is YVR keeping the 747 going all-year?

Lastly, I wonder if the A380 during summer season is under consideration. I believe SEA will soon be able to accept these.

At YVR, 747 to FRA is year round, A350 to Munich is only Summer seasonal

FRA -> YVR
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/lh492

MUC - > YVR
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/lh476

I highly doubt that SEA will get A380 service, let alone from LH. If I'm not mistaken, EW still flies to SEA, and they're a Star affiliate. It's a shame that the 747 will stop flying to Seattle, that flight always had award space available!

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:

I highly doubt that SEA will get A380 service, let alone from LH. If I'm not mistaken, EW still flies to SEA, and they're a Star affiliate. It's a shame that the 747 will stop flying to Seattle, that flight always had award space available!

I am guessing the 747 will be back summer 2019. Similar to what BA does

flybynight wrote:

I believe I am seeing A350's now going to YVR, but is that just from Munich (and not Frankfurt)?

SEA is going to an A330 this fall. Is this because of D Checks on the older 744's? Or just to cut seats in the off-season? I am little surprised since this is the only Star Alliance flight to Europe (unless I am missing one) from SEA.

Is YVR keeping the 747 going all-year?

Lastly, I wonder if the A380 during summer season is under consideration. I believe SEA will soon be able to accept these.

380 to SEA is definitely not happening in the foreseeable future - on LH or anyone else. As a fan of large flying things, it's a bummer for me to have to say that.
I believe the 747 will be back to SEA next summer after going to the 330 for the fall/winter season. Hope it'll be the 748 again, miss seeing it here, was nice while it lasted.

ER757 wrote:

flybynight wrote:

I believe I am seeing A350's now going to YVR, but is that just from Munich (and not Frankfurt)?

SEA is going to an A330 this fall. Is this because of D Checks on the older 744's? Or just to cut seats in the off-season? I am little surprised since this is the only Star Alliance flight to Europe (unless I am missing one) from SEA.

Is YVR keeping the 747 going all-year?

Lastly, I wonder if the A380 during summer season is under consideration. I believe SEA will soon be able to accept these.

380 to SEA is definitely not happening in the foreseeable future - on LH or anyone else. As a fan of large flying things, it's a bummer for me to have to say that.
I believe the 747 will be back to SEA next summer after going to the 330 for the fall/winter season. Hope it'll be the 748 again, miss seeing it here, was nice while it lasted.

The 747-8 was a cool treat indeed. I would imagine as the 744's go into retirement, the opportunity for the 8's will increase.

I find it interesting that YVR keeps the 744 all year.


Seattle is the bigger metro area by roughly 1 million people with bigger international corporations. Not only that, YVR gets a flight from Munich as well.

flybynight wrote:

ER757 wrote:

flybynight wrote:

I believe I am seeing A350's now going to YVR, but is that just from Munich (and not Frankfurt)?

SEA is going to an A330 this fall. Is this because of D Checks on the older 744's? Or just to cut seats in the off-season? I am little surprised since this is the only Star Alliance flight to Europe (unless I am missing one) from SEA.

Is YVR keeping the 747 going all-year?

Lastly, I wonder if the A380 during summer season is under consideration. I believe SEA will soon be able to accept these.

380 to SEA is definitely not happening in the foreseeable future - on LH or anyone else. As a fan of large flying things, it's a bummer for me to have to say that.
I believe the 747 will be back to SEA next summer after going to the 330 for the fall/winter season. Hope it'll be the 748 again, miss seeing it here, was nice while it lasted.

The 747-8 was a cool treat indeed. I would imagine as the 744's go into retirement, the opportunity for the 8's will increase.

I find it interesting that YVR keeps the 744 all year.


Seattle is the bigger metro area by roughly 1 million people with bigger international corporations. Not only that, YVR gets a flight from Munich as well.

A few reasons:
1) LH is star alliance like air Canada, so it is naturally supported and can get AC connecting PAX.
2) Canadians travel to Europe in higher proportions than Americans
3) YVR is also an AC hub which again produces even more connecting PAX
4) I also believe Canada gets more European tourists than seatle as well (Whistler, banff, etc)

After the 744s leave the LH fleet, the 777x will replace it, so we can most likely expect to see those as well as the 748s in Seattle.

flybynight wrote:

Seattle is the bigger metro area by roughly 1 million people with bigger international corporations. Not only that, YVR gets a flight from Munich as well.

Doesn't Condor fly SEA-MUC (seasonally)? As for the rest, YVR has always had greater int'l travel.

flyPIT wrote:

flybynight wrote:

Seattle is the bigger metro area by roughly 1 million people with bigger international corporations. Not only that, YVR gets a flight from Munich as well.

Doesn't Condor fly SEA-MUC (seasonally)? As for the rest, YVR has always had greater int'l travel.

Condor dropped SEA-MUC quite awhile back.

I think it might also have something to do with Vancouver’s position as Canada’s Pacific gateway and largest Western city versus Seattle, who also have LAX and SFO to compete with.

All this and more, YVR is a Star Hub / AC Hub, YVR has far more international destinations / flights / pax than SEA. Germans love Western Canada, they typically do Vancouver and the Rockies, we have tons of Germans all summer here in Vancouver, also large German ( mostly older ) community still in Metro Vancouver.

I think Europeans in general prefer the USA to Canada. The population of Vancouver is growing very quickly despite the high cost of living. The Lower Mainland where Vancouver is situated, is approaching 3 million and if you include Victoria and town on the east coast of Vancouver Island then you are looking at 3.4 million. This population is expected to increase by 11 % by the next census in 2020. So really not that far off Seattle area population. The big difference is Vancouver area population is fueled by immigration. As Canada increases the immigration quota, Vancouver becomes ever more lucrative to airlines such as Lufthansa. keeping in mind most immigrants settle in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver areas.

LH had the A346 in yesterday after the B744 flight to FRA left.

I need to go to Hamburg in a couple of weeks from either SEA or YVR. Out of SEA on LH is over $8k in J-class. Out of YVR on LH, its about $4k. The Canadian dollar is very weak right now. Either LH is carrying tons of cargo or they're getting good fares on the Europeans going to Vancouver.

Tokyo777 wrote:

I need to go to Hamburg in a couple of weeks from either SEA or YVR. Out of SEA on LH is over $8k in J-class. Out of YVR on LH, its about $4k. The Canadian dollar is very weak right now. Either LH is carrying tons of cargo or they're getting good fares on the Europeans going to Vancouver.

Generally speaking, Canada fares are more expensive than US fares out of Europe.

CPA62 wrote:

I think Europeans in general prefer the USA to Canada. The population of Vancouver is growing very quickly despite the high cost of living. The Lower Mainland where Vancouver is situated, is approaching 3 million and if you include Victoria and town on the east coast of Vancouver Island then you are looking at 3.4 million. This population is expected to increase by 11 % by the next census in 2020. So really not that far off Seattle area population. The big difference is Vancouver area population is fueled by immigration. As Canada increases the immigration quota, Vancouver becomes ever more lucrative to airlines such as Lufthansa. keeping in mind most immigrants settle in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver areas.

I would argue the opposite when put in relation to the respective populations. Among Germans, probably there are quite a few people who don't even know of Seattle's existence (whereas YVR) is fairly well-known, also as a starting point for Alaska cruises. You're right about the immigrant communities in YVR that might turn the odds in favour of YVR.

ACCS300 wrote:

All this and more, YVR is a Star Hub / AC Hub, YVR has far more international destinations / flights / pax than SEA. Germans love Western Canada, they typically do Vancouver and the Rockies, we have tons of Germans all summer here in Vancouver, also large German ( mostly older ) community still in Metro Vancouver.

I've connected on AC DEN-YVR-FRA only this year but this is certainly the exception. In all honesty, YVR is a suboptimal connection point ex Europe to anywhere. Much of Western Canada can be covered by connections elsewhere in Canada and honestly there are not a lot of cities other than YYC that play any role for Europe-Canada traffic and even that would require backtracking. For the US, there's tons of other connection points. It is a factor but certainly not the factor that makes YVR work for LH.

I would argue the opposite when put in relation to the respective populations. Among Germans, probably there are quite a few people who don't even know of Seattle's existence (whereas YVR) is fairly well-known, also as a starting point for Alaska cruises. You're right about the immigrant communities in YVR that might turn the odds in favour of YVR.
Seattle overtook Vancouver as the #1 departure point for Alaska cruises several years ago and is growing each passing year. More departures, larger ships......

Every time I flew the LH 744 SEA/FRA, there was plenty of empty J, even in August, so I suspect it was just undersubscribed. Now that Delta has a strong foothold here, it makes more sense for most of us to get in bed with them on the AMS route, though upgrades are harder to come by due to their lower J fraction and higher FF competition. Maybe I'll break rank one last time this summer to get a good seat on the queen....

LGAviation wrote:

Tokyo777 wrote:

I need to go to Hamburg in a couple of weeks from either SEA or YVR. Out of SEA on LH is over $8k in J-class. Out of YVR on LH, its about $4k. The Canadian dollar is very weak right now. Either LH is carrying tons of cargo or they're getting good fares on the Europeans going to Vancouver.

Generally speaking, Canada fares are more expensive than US fares out of Europe.

CPA62 wrote:

I think Europeans in general prefer the USA to Canada. The population of Vancouver is growing very quickly despite the high cost of living. The Lower Mainland where Vancouver is situated, is approaching 3 million and if you include Victoria and town on the east coast of Vancouver Island then you are looking at 3.4 million. This population is expected to increase by 11 % by the next census in 2020. So really not that far off Seattle area population. The big difference is Vancouver area population is fueled by immigration. As Canada increases the immigration quota, Vancouver becomes ever more lucrative to airlines such as Lufthansa. keeping in mind most immigrants settle in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver areas.

I would argue the opposite when put in relation to the respective populations. Among Germans, probably there are quite a few people who don't even know of Seattle's existence (whereas YVR) is fairly well-known, also as a starting point for Alaska cruises. You're right about the immigrant communities in YVR that might turn the odds in favour of YVR.

ACCS300 wrote:

All this and more, YVR is a Star Hub / AC Hub, YVR has far more international destinations / flights / pax than SEA. Germans love Western Canada, they typically do Vancouver and the Rockies, we have tons of Germans all summer here in Vancouver, also large German ( mostly older ) community still in Metro Vancouver.

I've connected on AC DEN-YVR-FRA only this year but this is certainly the exception. In all honesty, YVR is a suboptimal connection point ex Europe to anywhere. Much of Western Canada can be covered by connections elsewhere in Canada and honestly there are not a lot of cities other than YYC that play any role for Europe-Canada traffic and even that would require backtracking. For the US, there's tons of other connection points. It is a factor but certainly not the factor that makes YVR work for LH.

It is interesting on the fare to Europe between SEA and YVR. Last time I went over in 2016 it was actually cheaper out of YVR on BA vs BA from SEA. It definitely is worth cross-shopping (especially for me since we live in both cities). But, yes, usually cheaper from SEA. YVR is the nice airport though. SEA has become super crowded and until the upgrades are completed, it is rather subpar.


As for the cruise aspect - Seattle is the bigger starting point now over Vancouver.


In today's US political climate, I would definitely go to Vanouver over Seattle. At the end of the day both cities are similiar. A lot of beauty around both. Maybe a slight edge to YVR, but I'd say SEA has some of the cooler neighborhoods. So why deal with US immigration nowadays when you get the same experience in Vancouver.

"Seattle overtook Vancouver as the #1 departure point for Alaska cruises several years ago and is growing each passing year. More departures, larger ships."

One of the principal reasons for this is that Seattle and Alaska are both in the US, this eliminates the need for US Citizens to enter Canada simply to board a ship to another US state, the vast majority of Alaska Cruise travellers are American and a large percentage of Americans don't have a passports so it's natural that Seattle would eventually overtake Vancouver. Second, but less important factor, is that many of the new mega-cruise ships can no longer fit under the Lions Gate Bridge into Vancouver Harbour.

ACCS300 wrote:

"Seattle overtook Vancouver as the #1 departure point for Alaska cruises several years ago and is growing each passing year. More departures, larger ships."

One of the principal reasons for this is that Seattle and Alaska are both in the US, this eliminates the need for US Citizens to enter Canada simply to board a ship to another US state, the vast majority of Alaska Cruise travellers are American and a large percentage of Americans don't have a passports so it's natural that Seattle would eventually overtake Vancouver. Second, but less important factor, is that many of the new mega-cruise ships can no longer fit under the Lions Gate Bridge into Vancouver Harbour.

They still need a passport - at least I did when I went a couple years ago. I think it's because they pass through Canadian waters and if there were to be an emergency and they had to dock at a Canadian port folks would need their passports. That's just a guess, I could be wrong.
I know what you mean about the larger ships maybe not making it under the bridge. My first Alaska cruise departed from Vancouver and it was a tight squeeze. That was twenty years ago on a much smaller ship than some of the ones sailing out of Seattle now

ER757 wrote:

ACCS300 wrote:

"Seattle overtook Vancouver as the #1 departure point for Alaska cruises several years ago and is growing each passing year. More departures, larger ships."

One of the principal reasons for this is that Seattle and Alaska are both in the US, this eliminates the need for US Citizens to enter Canada simply to board a ship to another US state, the vast majority of Alaska Cruise travellers are American and a large percentage of Americans don't have a passports so it's natural that Seattle would eventually overtake Vancouver. Second, but less important factor, is that many of the new mega-cruise ships can no longer fit under the Lions Gate Bridge into Vancouver Harbour.

They still need a passport - at least I did when I went a couple years ago. I think it's because they pass through Canadian waters and if there were to be an emergency and they had to dock at a Canadian port folks would need their passports. That's just a guess, I could be wrong.
I know what you mean about the larger ships maybe not making it under the bridge. My first Alaska cruise departed from Vancouver and it was a tight squeeze. That was twenty years ago on a much smaller ship than some of the ones sailing out of Seattle now

NCL just launched their new and biggest ship in Seattle actually. For Alaska cruises.

I am, however, curious how much more international travel comes into YVE vs SEA. I think SEA has closed the gap a lot.
Of course international travel into YVR would include US which kind of throws off the number .Maybe I should say from Europe and Asia

flybynight wrote:

ER757 wrote:

ACCS300 wrote:

"Seattle overtook Vancouver as the #1 departure point for Alaska cruises several years ago and is growing each passing year. More departures, larger ships."

One of the principal reasons for this is that Seattle and Alaska are both in the US, this eliminates the need for US Citizens to enter Canada simply to board a ship to another US state, the vast majority of Alaska Cruise travellers are American and a large percentage of Americans don't have a passports so it's natural that Seattle would eventually overtake Vancouver. Second, but less important factor, is that many of the new mega-cruise ships can no longer fit under the Lions Gate Bridge into Vancouver Harbour.

They still need a passport - at least I did when I went a couple years ago. I think it's because they pass through Canadian waters and if there were to be an emergency and they had to dock at a Canadian port folks would need their passports. That's just a guess, I could be wrong.
I know what you mean about the larger ships maybe not making it under the bridge. My first Alaska cruise departed from Vancouver and it was a tight squeeze. That was twenty years ago on a much smaller ship than some of the ones sailing out of Seattle now

NCL just launched their new and biggest ship in Seattle actually. For Alaska cruises.

I am, however, curious how much more international travel comes into YVE vs SEA. I think SEA has closed the gap a lot.
Of course international travel into YVR would include US which kind of throws off the number .Maybe I should say from Europe and Asia

I am surprised by the growth of Seattle as a departure port given that from what I've seen it doesnt eliminate the need to stop in BC. This is due to cabotage rules since most cruise ships also at NCL (except obviously the intra-Hawaiian Pride of America) are under foreign flags and such ships aren't allowed to operate US only itineraries. As for the need of a passport, I can't say a thing given that as a European I always need one. But Americans certainly need whatever is required to enter Canada by sea.


Anyway, both are nice cities that certainly appeal to the knowing German and I really hope continues to give them this much attention.

the impression if get from friends in the cruise ship business is Seattle is the prefered port particularly for US Citizens. Seattle is easy to access from the USA so it makes sense Seattle would eventually overtake Vancouver. Vancouver is also very limited on the number and size of vessels that can enter the harbour and
there are no plans to build a new ship facility out side the burrard inlet. Seattle is very proactive in attracting new vessels so maybe the powers at be in Vancouver realize they will eventually loose this traffic to Seattle?

it would be interesting to find out what the international passenger number for YVR and SEA. i would make an assumption SEA does much better to Europe but YVR is larger to ASIA/PACIFIC.

CPA62 wrote:

the impression if get from friends in the cruise ship business is Seattle is the prefered port particularly for US Citizens. Seattle is easy to access from the USA so it makes sense Seattle would eventually overtake Vancouver. Vancouver is also very limited on the number and size of vessels that can enter the harbour and
there are no plans to build a new ship facility out side the burrard inlet. Seattle is very proactive in attracting new vessels so maybe the powers at be in Vancouver realize they will eventually loose this traffic to Seattle?

it would be interesting to find out what the international passenger number for YVR and SEA. i would make an assumption SEA does much better to Europe but YVR is larger to ASIA/PACIFIC.

Here in Vancouver we lost our secondary cruise ship terminal at Ballentyne Pier a few years back so we're left with only Canada Place at this point which has room for about 3 ships at one time.

As far as European pax YVR vs SEA, YVR saw 1,604,454 Europe pax pass through in 2017 ( YVR.ca source ), and according to wiki in 2017 SEA had 1,087,795 European pax, I've added the totals for LHR, FRA, REY, AMS, didn't include some seasonal charters, still looks like YVR is way ahead though.

ACCS300 wrote:

CPA62 wrote:

the impression if get from friends in the cruise ship business is Seattle is the prefered port particularly for US Citizens. Seattle is easy to access from the USA so it makes sense Seattle would eventually overtake Vancouver. Vancouver is also very limited on the number and size of vessels that can enter the harbour and
there are no plans to build a new ship facility out side the burrard inlet. Seattle is very proactive in attracting new vessels so maybe the powers at be in Vancouver realize they will eventually loose this traffic to Seattle?

it would be interesting to find out what the international passenger number for YVR and SEA. i would make an assumption SEA does much better to Europe but YVR is larger to ASIA/PACIFIC.

Here in Vancouver we lost our secondary cruise ship terminal at Ballentyne Pier a few years back so we're left with only Canada Place at this point which has room for about 3 ships at one time.

As far as European pax YVR vs SEA, YVR saw 1,604,454 Europe pax pass through in 2017 ( YVR.ca source ), and according to wiki in 2017 SEA had 1,087,795 European pax, I've added the totals for LHR, FRA, REY, AMS, didn't include some seasonal charters, still looks like YVR is way ahead though.

Thanks, that's a useful stat.

I would imagine a similiar ratio with Asia traffic. SEA doesn't get traffic from Australia, while YVR has Qantas and Air New Zealand.

CPA62 wrote:

I think Europeans in general prefer the USA to Canada. The population of Vancouver is growing very quickly despite the high cost of living. The Lower Mainland where Vancouver is situated, is approaching 3 million and if you include Victoria and town on the east coast of Vancouver Island then you are looking at 3.4 million. This population is expected to increase by 11 % by the next census in 2020. So really not that far off Seattle area population. The big difference is Vancouver area population is fueled by immigration. As Canada increases the immigration quota, Vancouver becomes ever more lucrative to airlines such as Lufthansa. keeping in mind most immigrants settle in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver areas.

From the rest of your post, I wonder if you miswrote and really meant that Europeans prefer Canada to the USA - if looks at least as if they prefer YVR to SEA at least.

CPA62 wrote:

Vancouver is also very limited on the number and size of vessels that can enter the harbour and
there are no plans to build a new ship facility out side the burrard inlet.

Vancouver is indeed limited and has been losing lots of cruise business to Seattle. There are however fairly concrete plans which will soon be finalized and announced to address the Lions Gate Bridge issue and recapture some of the lost traffic.