Delta orders 20 CRJ900 with new interiors

flyguy84 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:24 pm

Looks like Delta has no preference when it comes to 76-seat aircraft, opting to order 20 CRJ900 with a new interior design.

It states these jets are replacements. Other articles note that the aircraft will only be fitted with 70 seats. This makes them likely replacements for crj700s. Due to scope clauses, Delta cannot add any more 76-seat aircraft.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bizjou ... w.amp.html

ericm2031 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:25 pm

These will be configured with 70 seats similar to the E175SC to avoid scope limitations

Dominion301 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:30 pm

Excellent news for Bombardier. A much needed shot in the arm for the CRJ line.

enilria · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:34 pm

I guess with fuel going up I am a little surprised they would buy an aircraft hamstrung with a poor seat:weight ratio. I suspect these planes will not have a long life.

CRJ900 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:41 pm

AA ordered 15 (+15) CRJ900 with the new cabin in May and now DL with 20 aircraft, so potentially 50 new CRJ900 - nice boost for the CRJ production line.

With only 70 seats, they might take them as lowest-MTOW aircraft to cut down on charges that are weight-related?

FSDan · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:44 pm

I take it a CR9 with 70 seats isn't any less efficient than a CR7 with 70 seats? Otherwise, why wouldn't DL have just ordered some new -700s? Perhaps to allow for putting in additional seats in the future if scope changes or if some other 76-seaters leave the fleet?

DiamondFlyer · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:45 pm

enilria wrote:
I guess with fuel going up I am a little surprised they would buy an aircraft hamstrung with a poor seat:weight ratio. I suspect these planes will not have a long life.

Why? No one builds a 70 seat jet, which is what these are replacing. Your choice is a 70 seat CR9 or a 70 seat 175, and the 70 seat CR9 has better economics.

Polot · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:49 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
enilria wrote:
I guess with fuel going up I am a little surprised they would buy an aircraft hamstrung with a poor seat:weight ratio. I suspect these planes will not have a long life.

Why? No one builds a 70 seat jet, which is what these are replacing. Your choice is a 70 seat CR9 or a 70 seat 175, and the 70 seat CR9 has better economics.

The CRJ700 and E170 are 70 seaters and both are still available for sale (not that anyone buys them).

Opting for the CRJ900/E175 is likely a mix of wanting a larger premium cabin and the flexibility in the future to convert them to 76 seats if scope is ever relaxed.

DiamondFlyer · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:51 pm

Polot wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
enilria wrote:
I guess with fuel going up I am a little surprised they would buy an aircraft hamstrung with a poor seat:weight ratio. I suspect these planes will not have a long life.

Why? No one builds a 70 seat jet, which is what these are replacing. Your choice is a 70 seat CR9 or a 70 seat 175, and the 70 seat CR9 has better economics.

The CRJ700 and E170 are 70 seaters and both are still available for sale (not that anyone buys them).

Opting for the CRJ900/E175 is likely a mix of wanting a larger premium cabin and the flexibility in the future to convert them to 76 seats if scope is ever relaxed.

When did the last 700/170 come off the line and are they available to purchase at this point? Of course, 70 seats in a 76 seat RJ give them scope flexibility down the road.

Polot · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:57 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Polot wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

Why? No one builds a 70 seat jet, which is what these are replacing. Your choice is a 70 seat CR9 or a 70 seat 175, and the 70 seat CR9 has better economics.

The CRJ700 and E170 are 70 seaters and both are still available for sale (not that anyone buys them).

Opting for the CRJ900/E175 is likely a mix of wanting a larger premium cabin and the flexibility in the future to convert them to 76 seats if scope is ever relaxed.

When did the last 700/170 come off the line and are they available to purchase at this point? Of course, 70 seats in a 76 seat RJ give them scope flexibility down the road.

The last CRJ700/E170 delivered was in April for both of them (to Ibex Airlines and J-Air respectively).

ExMilitaryEng · Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:21 pm

Polot wrote:
Opting for the CRJ900/E175 is likely a mix of wanting a larger premium cabin and the flexibility to convert them to 76 seats if scope is ever relaxed.

Exactly.
Furthermore that flexibility probably increases the resale value up to a point of lowering total ownership costs - in the case of a lease anyways.

flyfresno · Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:29 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Polot wrote:
Opting for the CRJ900/E175 is likely a mix of wanting a larger premium cabin and the flexibility to convert them to 76 seats if scope is ever relaxed.

Exactly.
Furthermore that flexibility probably increases the resale value up to a point of lowering total ownership costs - in the case of a lease anyways.

Having a 50 seat a/c with all economy is bad enough, why would they order 70 seat a/c (-700) with all coach when they can put in the premium cabins their pax want.

OA940 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:34 pm

Great for the CRJ program and DL! Can't wait to see the new interiors!

enilria · Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:43 pm

Polot wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
enilria wrote:
I guess with fuel going up I am a little surprised they would buy an aircraft hamstrung with a poor seat:weight ratio. I suspect these planes will not have a long life.

Why? No one builds a 70 seat jet, which is what these are replacing. Your choice is a 70 seat CR9 or a 70 seat 175, and the 70 seat CR9 has better economics.

The CRJ700 and E170 are 70 seaters and both are still available for sale (not that anyone buys them).

Opting for the CRJ900/E175 is likely a mix of wanting a larger premium cabin and the flexibility in the future to convert them to 76 seats if scope is ever relaxed.

True, but reading about the cabin changes it will be tough economically to switch these planes back to a high density config. Maybe 76 is doable, but the normal config would be megabucks.

intotheair · Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:58 pm

enilria wrote:
True, but reading about the cabin changes it will be tough economically to switch these planes back to a high density config. Maybe 76 is doable, but the normal config would be megabucks.

I think the article is overstating the cabin differences. It appears to be a more run of the mill fine tuning of bigger overheads, LED lighting, and trimming here and there to try to maximize passenger space. Switching from 70 to 76 seats for DL down the line likely entails removing a row of F or C+ and adding another row of Y, give or take a seat or two. I don't see how that's any more costly than densifying any other airplane.

Switching to a 90-seat all Y config is probably more or less the same process, though I think it's highly unlikely DL pilots or any of the majors would ever allow enough scope relief beyond more than 76 or maybe 80 seats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axe3brYBDuk

jbs2886 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:01 pm

First delivery is late this year! Incredibly fast.

ExMilitaryEng · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:17 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
First delivery is late this year! Incredibly fast.

Before this order, there were 48 CRJs in the backlog.

At some point, BBD intended to move the whole CRJ FAL back to Dorval - in order to give all the space to the CSeries (needed big time!). It was therefore planned to accelerate/ajust CRJ production to obtain a "buffer" during that Dorval move shut down.

Maybe BBD is now delaying the Dorval move and is using that "buffer" for this Delta order.

DiamondFlyer · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:18 pm

[*]

jbs2886 wrote:
First delivery is late this year! Incredibly fast.

Really limits the airplane to an operator already flying the CRJ

Polot · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:24 pm

flyfresno wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Polot wrote:
Opting for the CRJ900/E175 is likely a mix of wanting a larger premium cabin and the flexibility to convert them to 76 seats if scope is ever relaxed.

Exactly.
Furthermore that flexibility probably increases the resale value up to a point of lowering total ownership costs - in the case of a lease anyways.

Having a 50 seat a/c with all economy is bad enough, why would they order 70 seat a/c (-700) with all coach when they can put in the premium cabins their pax want.

CRJ700 with 70 seats have a premium cabin. All Y and they would sit closer to 80 seats.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
[*]
jbs2886 wrote:
First delivery is late this year! Incredibly fast.

Really limits the airplane to an operator already flying the CRJ

That is every DL connection airline except Compass and Republic.

MSPNWA · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:24 pm

Replacement for GoJet's CR7s? They have 22, and they're some of the oldest CR7s. As far as I can see they're owned by DL too.

Disappointing though that DL continues to buy CR9s when the far superior (for the passengers) E170 line is available.

pitbosflyer · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:24 pm

As much as I prefer an Ejet over a CRJ. These are going to look pretty great. Even the older CRJ900s at Delta that have gotten cabin refreshes look pretty sharp.

jetmatt777 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:27 pm

Imagine this thread if United was the purchaser!

PlanesNTrains · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:45 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Replacement for GoJet's CR7s? They have 22, and they're some of the oldest CR7s. As far as I can see they're owned by DL too.

Disappointing though that DL continues to buy CR9s when the far superior (for the passengers) E170 line is available.

I've flown both and my Ejet flight was less comfortable than any CR7 flight I've ever taken - and I'm an Ejet fan. Wider seats are great but when they're crammed together it's really hard to notice the perks. Besides, I'd imagine that a 70-passenger CR9 is overall a better proposition for the customer than a 70 seat E170.

cvgComair · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:54 pm

Delta needs more RJ's for focus city expansions, as adds at CVG/RDU/AUS/IND/BOS (and apparently now BNA) have been on hold until the CSeries arrive to displace larger RJ's. While most of these will probably be used to replace some of the older RJ's, the quick timing should allow them to bridge the gap before the CSeries arrive in 2019.

KICT · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:58 pm

How many CRJ-200s (or even 100s) are still in US airline service?

DiamondFlyer · Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:07 pm

KICT wrote:
How many CRJ-200s (or even 100s) are still in US airline service?

Delta Connection alone has over 100, between Skywest and Endeavor.

PlanesNTrains · Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:07 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Delta needs more RJ's for focus city expansions, as adds at CVG/RDU/AUS/IND/BOS (and apparently now BNA) have been on hold until the CSeries arrive to displace larger RJ's. While most of these will probably be used to replace some of the older RJ's, the quick timing should allow them to bridge the gap before the CSeries arrive in 2019.

Along with the many other things that Delta has done right, imho, is their build-up of smaller focus cities. They are literally going to strangle other carriers by siphoning off the corporate accounts little by little and by offering a much broader portfolio of flights than anyone else. Curious how this plays out, though, if and when the economy hits the fan.

767333ER · Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:29 pm

enilria wrote:
I guess with fuel going up I am a little surprised they would buy an aircraft hamstrung with a poor seat:weight ratio. I suspect these planes will not have a long life.

You do realize that the CRJ-900 is more efficient than the E175, at least when fitted with 75 seats. I get that they are doing 70 seats, but I imagine it’s still more cost effective especially given the assembly line availability.

flyguy84 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:42 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
[*]
jbs2886 wrote:
First delivery is late this year! Incredibly fast.

Really limits the airplane to an operator already flying the CRJ

I’m going to guess these replace the current CR7 currently flown by GoJet. The old Comair birds. Now, will G7 operate them or will they just end the contract with them.

777Mech · Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:09 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Delta needs more RJ's for focus city expansions, as adds at CVG/RDU/AUS/IND/BOS (and apparently now BNA) have been on hold until the CSeries arrive to displace larger RJ's. While most of these will probably be used to replace some of the older RJ's, the quick timing should allow them to bridge the gap before the CSeries arrive in 2019.

The first CS100 will arrive before the new CRJ. The CS will come online in October.

DiamondFlyer · Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:14 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Delta needs more RJ's for focus city expansions, as adds at CVG/RDU/AUS/IND/BOS (and apparently now BNA) have been on hold until the CSeries arrive to displace larger RJ's. While most of these will probably be used to replace some of the older RJ's, the quick timing should allow them to bridge the gap before the CSeries arrive in 2019.

Seeing as Delta is scoped out, these will be nothing more than 1:1 replacements. Any growth will have to come from the CS displacing CRJ900/175s from current flying

cvgComair · Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:14 pm

777Mech wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Delta needs more RJ's for focus city expansions, as adds at CVG/RDU/AUS/IND/BOS (and apparently now BNA) have been on hold until the CSeries arrive to displace larger RJ's. While most of these will probably be used to replace some of the older RJ's, the quick timing should allow them to bridge the gap before the CSeries arrive in 2019.

The first CS100 will arrive before the new CRJ. The CS will come online in October.

When do they start flying passenger routes though? I was under the impression that the first revenue flights would not take place until 2019.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Delta needs more RJ's for focus city expansions, as adds at CVG/RDU/AUS/IND/BOS (and apparently now BNA) have been on hold until the CSeries arrive to displace larger RJ's. While most of these will probably be used to replace some of the older RJ's, the quick timing should allow them to bridge the gap before the CSeries arrive in 2019.

Seeing as Delta is scoped out, these will be nothing more than 1:1 replacements. Any growth will have to come from the CS displacing CRJ900/175s from current flying

I guess it wouldn’t matter anyway then. At least some of the older RJs will be leaving.

Judge1310 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:36 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Imagine this thread if United was the purchaser!

#RealTalk
lol

enilria · Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:37 pm

intotheair wrote:
Switching to a 90-seat all Y config is probably more or less the same process, though I think it's highly unlikely DL pilots or any of the majors would ever allow enough scope relief beyond more than 76 or maybe 80 seats.

If they really expanded the lavs that's a big deal to change down the road. A general rule in aircraft maintenance is to stay away from moving/changing the lavs because it opens up an expensive cans of worms...maybe literally!

Anyway, I don't expect scope to change, but it limits resale value of the planes which is why I said they will have a short life.

ilovelamp · Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:57 pm

777Mech wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Delta needs more RJ's for focus city expansions, as adds at CVG/RDU/AUS/IND/BOS (and apparently now BNA) have been on hold until the CSeries arrive to displace larger RJ's. While most of these will probably be used to replace some of the older RJ's, the quick timing should allow them to bridge the gap before the CSeries arrive in 2019.

The first CS100 will arrive before the new CRJ. The CS will come online in October.

The last Delta has said is first delivery in October and then the check pilots get plenty of time to get actual flight time and landings with it. There will be the usual national tour throughout the hubs most likely, too.

First flight slated for January.

JoeCanuck · Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:58 pm

enilria wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Switching to a 90-seat all Y config is probably more or less the same process, though I think it's highly unlikely DL pilots or any of the majors would ever allow enough scope relief beyond more than 76 or maybe 80 seats.

If they really expanded the lavs that's a big deal to change down the road. A general rule in aircraft maintenance is to stay away from moving/changing the lavs because it opens up an expensive cans of worms...maybe literally!

Anyway, I don't expect scope to change, but it limits resale value of the planes which is why I said they will have a short life.

Hundreds of CRJ-200's are still flying around, decades after their often predicted demise, and AAj ust ordered a bunch. There are 2 choices in the world of scope....and the CRJ-900 is one of them. They aren't going away anytime soon.

oosnowrat · Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:58 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Disappointing though that DL continues to buy CR9s when the far superior (for the passengers) E170 line is available.

The new Atmosphere interior looks pretty sweet. With only 70 seats, I think these CR9s will be fantastic.

https://www.bombardier.com/en/media/mul ... mages.html

airzona11 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:59 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Replacement for GoJet's CR7s? They have 22, and they're some of the oldest CR7s. As far as I can see they're owned by DL too.

Disappointing though that DL continues to buy CR9s when the far superior (for the passengers) E170 line is available.

The new interiors look pretty good. Plus for many missions, the CRJ900 is more efficient.

Bricktop · Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:12 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
KICT wrote:
How many CRJ-200s (or even 100s) are still in US airline service?

Delta Connection alone has over 100, between Skywest and Endeavor.

Air Wisconsin has 60+. They were flying for USAir, now they are with UA.

jagraham · Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:46 pm

enilria wrote:
Polot wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

Why? No one builds a 70 seat jet, which is what these are replacing. Your choice is a 70 seat CR9 or a 70 seat 175, and the 70 seat CR9 has better economics.

The CRJ700 and E170 are 70 seaters and both are still available for sale (not that anyone buys them).

Opting for the CRJ900/E175 is likely a mix of wanting a larger premium cabin and the flexibility in the future to convert them to 76 seats if scope is ever relaxed.

True, but reading about the cabin changes it will be tough economically to switch these planes back to a high density config. Maybe 76 is doable, but the normal config would be megabucks.

DL won't go past 76 seats with these birds

CRJ900 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:26 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
These will be configured with 70 seats similar to the E175SC to avoid scope limitations

On Delta's seat map of this aircraft it looks like there is one row missing in the back of the cabin, like an empty space between the last row and the aft windscreen. Is it really like that?

On the CRJ900, the aft cargo hold can be extended into the cabin with fewer seats - perfect on routes with lots of checked-in bags and commercial cargo.

tigerotor77w · Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:57 pm

What does "scope" as used in the context of various replies in this thread mean?

Cactusjuba · Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:38 pm

tigerotor77w wrote:
What does "scope" as used in the context of various replies in this thread mean?

These planes are owned by Delta, painted in Delta livery, but not operated by Delta employees (pilots, flight attendants, mechanics). Why? To pay those workers lower wages and benefits. The Delta pilots' union has contractual limits as to what can be outsourced. This is referred to as "Scope", as in the scope of what DL pilots operate. Anything +76 seats and/or +86,000lbs max takeoff weight has to be flown by Delta crews. On top of that, there are specific limits to the number of 76 seat aircraft that can be outsourced. That limit has already been reached, so DL is just reshuffling the deck chairs to be compliant with the Scope limitations. Perhaps they are hoping scope limits can be relaxed in future bargaining, and they can reconfigure the seating.

There are E175s operated by Skywest for DL that have 70 seats right now, (E175SC). This is the same game, different aircraft variant.

ilovelamp · Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:49 pm

These were a part of a previous order and are scheduled to replace the older 700s at SkyWest.

DiamondFlyer · Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:04 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
These were a part of a previous order and are scheduled to replace the older 700s at SkyWest.

That’s what I’ve heard as well. 1:1 replacement of SkyWest operated 700s

cheapgreek · Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:17 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
enilria wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Switching to a 90-seat all Y config is probably more or less the same process, though I think it's highly unlikely DL pilots or any of the majors would ever allow enough scope relief beyond more than 76 or maybe 80 seats.

If they really expanded the lavs that's a big deal to change down the road. A general rule in aircraft maintenance is to stay away from moving/changing the lavs because it opens up an expensive cans of worms...maybe literally!

Anyway, I don't expect scope to change, but it limits resale value of the planes which is why I said they will have a short life.

Hundreds of CRJ-200's are still flying around, decades after their often predicted demise, and AAj ust ordered a bunch. There are 2 choices in the world of scope....and the CRJ-900 is one of them. They aren't going away anytime soon.

I thought the CRJ-200's were out of production and only the 700's and 900's are available.

JoeCanuck · Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:16 am

cheapgreek wrote:

I thought the CRJ-200's were out of production and only the 700's and 900's are available.

They are...but they just keep on, keeping on. According to Wiki, as of August 2017, there were 517 CRJ-200's still in service worldwide, and the last one was built in 2006.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:44 am

A good chunk of the remaining CR2s in DL's fleet are relatively young. Many of the CR2's that originated with 9E / NW Airlink are from the 2003-2005 time-frame.
The utilization both in terms of hours and cycles are way down from how hard they used to fly them.

Midwestindy · Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:21 am

This is great, the CSeries and now the updated CR9s, I think it goes without saying that DL has the best on-board experience in terms of aircraft of the US3.

jbs2886 · Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:40 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
These were a part of a previous order and are scheduled to replace the older 700s at SkyWest.

That’s what I’ve heard as well. 1:1 replacement of SkyWest operated 700s

Wait, so these are not a "new" order? I didn't think SkyWest or Delta had CRJs on order still.

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