As per: MSN via the Sun-Sentinel, FLL will shut down the north runway (10L) between June and October of 2019, with a predicted drop of 20-25% of flights during the closure. Naive question, but will companies start to reduce flight numbers this early, or will they typically wait to see. Even more naive question, what if certain companies don't choose to reduce their flight schedule?

That's the slow season and FLL only had one jet-capable runway until a few years ago, so they should be able to handle it.

This seems like a bad time to do it with the bloodbath going on down there between WN, NK, and B6. Ways to avoid some capacity cuts would probably be upgauging where possible. B6 could fly more A321s from BOS and JFK and cut the frequency a bit, WN could use more of its 738 fleet if possible and NK could up to 321s as well. Daily flights will take a hit but that doesn't mean capacity has to. Also, this may have negative effects on EK's FLL-DXB flight.

Technically they could probably operate all flights on one runway just like they use to do before, but there would be slight delays on departure and I'm guessing general aviation would suffer the main blow.

Still when there was only 9L/27R, FLL made use of the runway efficiently. Aircraft were usually on 4 mile finals, with takeoffs in between each landing.

drdisque wrote:

That's the slow season and FLL only had one jet-capable runway until a few years ago, so they should be able to handle it.

September and October are slower, but FLL had more passengers last year in June and July than it did in January and February.

YellowJ wrote:

Still when there was only 9L/27R, FLL made use of the runway efficiently. Aircraft were usually on 4 mile finals, with takeoffs in between each landing.

I learned to fly on 9L (though I solo-ed on 9R) and remember the days of the beautiful SAA planes landing on those long finals starting over Weston!

I am most interested to see if/how the DXB flights will be impacted. We fly that route often and have quickly come to love that flight, the service and the loads - I do also wonder if this will affect the newly announced MAD/FCO flights on Norwegian.

drdisque wrote:

That's the slow season and FLL only had one jet-capable runway until a few years ago, so they should be able to handle it.

Last summer season was actually quite high for FLL if I'm not mistaken. 06/2017- 07/2017 had more PAX numbers versus the early winter months.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

synanthropic wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

Still when there was only 9L/27R, FLL made use of the runway efficiently. Aircraft were usually on 4 mile finals, with takeoffs in between each landing.

I learned to fly on 9L (though I solo-ed on 9R) and remember the days of the beautiful SAA planes landing on those long finals starting over Weston!

I am most interested to see if/how the DXB flights will be impacted. We fly that route often and have quickly come to love that flight, the service and the loads - I do also wonder if this will affect the newly announced MAD/FCO flights on Norwegian.

drdisque wrote:

That's the slow season and FLL only had one jet-capable runway until a few years ago, so they should be able to handle it.

Last summer season was actually quite high for FLL if I'm not mistaken. 06/2017- 07/2017 had more PAX numbers versus the early winter months.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

9L (now 10L) is also the longer of the two runways though. While it says international flights will remain unchanged, I still question it, especially with Emirates. Is 8,000 feet enough for FLL-DXB nonstop?

evank516 wrote:

Also, this may have negative effects on EK's FLL-DXB flight.

They can use this opportunity to move the flight over to MIA, permanently !

evank516 wrote:

This seems like a bad time to do it with the bloodbath going on down there between WN, NK, and B6.

Actually that's really the best possible time to do it. Traffic to FLL drops off in May and reaches its nadir in September & October before recovering for Thanksgiving. There's another shorter drop in demand from early January through mid-February. Picking the quiet months at FLL for this project should allow the airlines to offer normal, seasonally-reduced service.

evank516 wrote:

synanthropic wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

Still when there was only 9L/27R, FLL made use of the runway efficiently. Aircraft were usually on 4 mile finals, with takeoffs in between each landing.

I learned to fly on 9L (though I solo-ed on 9R) and remember the days of the beautiful SAA planes landing on those long finals starting over Weston!

I am most interested to see if/how the DXB flights will be impacted. We fly that route often and have quickly come to love that flight, the service and the loads - I do also wonder if this will affect the newly announced MAD/FCO flights on Norwegian.

drdisque wrote:

That's the slow season and FLL only had one jet-capable runway until a few years ago, so they should be able to handle it.

Last summer season was actually quite high for FLL if I'm not mistaken. 06/2017- 07/2017 had more PAX numbers versus the early winter months.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

9L (now 10L) is also the longer of the two runways though. While it says international flights will remain unchanged, I still question it, especially with Emirates. Is 8,000 feet enough for FLL-DXB nonstop?

8,000 is enough since EK is not running 100% loads, FLL is at sea level and the flight takes off at night. Looking at videos of EK at FLL, it doesn't even use the full length of 10L as it stands now, so they'll be okay.

Will companies start to alter their service, or do think any will upgauge in response? Perhaps it is too early to do anything, though.

YellowJ wrote:

evank516 wrote:

synanthropic wrote:

I learned to fly on 9L (though I solo-ed on 9R) and remember the days of the beautiful SAA planes landing on those long finals starting over Weston!

I am most interested to see if/how the DXB flights will be impacted. We fly that route often and have quickly come to love that flight, the service and the loads - I do also wonder if this will affect the newly announced MAD/FCO flights on Norwegian.



Last summer season was actually quite high for FLL if I'm not mistaken. 06/2017- 07/2017 had more PAX numbers versus the early winter months.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

9L (now 10L) is also the longer of the two runways though. While it says international flights will remain unchanged, I still question it, especially with Emirates. Is 8,000 feet enough for FLL-DXB nonstop?

8,000 is enough since EK is not running 100% loads, FLL is at sea level and the flight takes off at night. Looking at videos of EK at FLL, it doesn't even use the full length of 10L as it stands now, so they'll be okay.

You realize aircraft performance is way more complicated then “They didn’t use the whole thing so a shorter one will work”.

What are they going to be doing for 6 months?

flight152 wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

evank516 wrote:

9L (now 10L) is also the longer of the two runways though. While it says international flights will remain unchanged, I still question it, especially with Emirates. Is 8,000 feet enough for FLL-DXB nonstop?

8,000 is enough since EK is not running 100% loads, FLL is at sea level and the flight takes off at night. Looking at videos of EK at FLL, it doesn't even use the full length of 10L as it stands now, so they'll be okay.

You realize aircraft performance is way more complicated then “They didn’t use the whole thing so a shorter one will work”.

Think Qatar in Miami!

evank516 wrote:

synanthropic wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

Still when there was only 9L/27R, FLL made use of the runway efficiently. Aircraft were usually on 4 mile finals, with takeoffs in between each landing.

I learned to fly on 9L (though I solo-ed on 9R) and remember the days of the beautiful SAA planes landing on those long finals starting over Weston!

I am most interested to see if/how the DXB flights will be impacted. We fly that route often and have quickly come to love that flight, the service and the loads - I do also wonder if this will affect the newly announced MAD/FCO flights on Norwegian.

drdisque wrote:

That's the slow season and FLL only had one jet-capable runway until a few years ago, so they should be able to handle it.

Last summer season was actually quite high for FLL if I'm not mistaken. 06/2017- 07/2017 had more PAX numbers versus the early winter months.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

9L (now 10L) is also the longer of the two runways though. While it says international flights will remain unchanged, I still question it, especially with Emirates. Is 8,000 feet enough for FLL-DXB nonstop?

It doesn't seem to have any issues, I have seen Azul, Emirates and Norwegian all arrive and depart off an 10R.

Maybe PBI will pick up some of the service...only 44 miles north with a long runway, lots of gates and ramp space.

I wonder if this is related to Spirit's recent international expansion at MCO.

Such a garbage airport.

Low ceilings; crowded/cramped hallways, gate areas and bathrooms; ramp is a cluster of diagonal taxiways and confusing intersections; limited gate space; and somewhat nasty controllers.

Truly the LGA of Florida.

As for the runway, it was closed 9 or 10 years ago and all ops went to the diagonal runway for several months. That runway is now gone.

What kind of repair job was that and what is happening now?

flight152 wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

evank516 wrote:

9L (now 10L) is also the longer of the two runways though. While it says international flights will remain unchanged, I still question it, especially with Emirates. Is 8,000 feet enough for FLL-DXB nonstop?

8,000 is enough since EK is not running 100% loads, FLL is at sea level and the flight takes off at night. Looking at videos of EK at FLL, it doesn't even use the full length of 10L as it stands now, so they'll be okay.

You realize aircraft performance is way more complicated then “They didn’t use the whole thing so a shorter one will work”.

I do, which is why I listed a myriad of reasons beside the one you cherry picked.

I doubt airlines will to much of anything to adjust capacity. The business is just too important. Air traffic control will likely have to implement ground delay programs on a daily basis to reduce holding and diverting of airplanes if the arrival demand exceeds what the airport can handle with one runway. Based on information from the FAA, the airport can accept 28 arrivals if arriving and departing 10R in clear conditions and 24 in IFR conditions.
https://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/eas ... frames.htm

The website below gives the number of hourly arrivals in to FLL tomorrow. Demand will vary from day to day and season to season but should give an estimate. Just select the FLL from the drop down.
https://www.fly.faa.gov/aadc/

RWY 10L-28R is in desperate need of rehab after handling all that traffic while on single runway ops. It has a lot of dips and cracks and patches with some areas to be replaced with concrete instead of asphalt. The EMAS on both ends is due for replacement. Confusing extra pavement leftover from the old runway configuration will be removed as well as unused runway connectors like A1/B1 to reduced chances for incursions. In addition, some new FAA requirements about islands between approach end lead in lines will be put in place. They will rehab parts of TWY B into the approach end of 10L and probably do some work on TWY A also. The runway lighting systems may also be changed out. I know the FAA is upgrading the glide slope and localizer at the moment. Its really a lot of things that need to be done to revive an old runway that can't handle the growing amount of traffic forever. Some of this stuff can and will be done with much of the runway open to minimize impact.
This work was supposed to be done as soon as the south runway opened, but a bulk of the surrounding communities did not have soundproofing done. Now that it is finally nearing completion, the project can continue.

So the sun sentinel article states the following from airport officials:

Instead, the airport is working with domestic airlines, Gale said. The airlines could reduce the number of flights to popular destinations such as New York or Chicago and instead use larger planes to accommodate the same number of passengers.

So what’s everyone’s predictions here.

A321s by JetBlue on a few routes more.
757/753s by United?
A321s on AA routes
767s to ATL?

any guesses?

Why was the crosswind runway closed?

Made room for new taxiways for the new south runway and terminals that have been and will be under construction.

drdisque wrote:

................ and FLL only had one jet-capable runway until a few years ago, .........

FLL always had 2 jet capable runways. 9L-27R (Now 10L-28R) and 13-31. 13-31 was closed when the 10R-28L extension made it jet capable.

Runway 12-30 was closed as the new 10R-28L is elevated at the extended East end to cross over US1 to make it jet capable length and this would have made 12-30 an obstacle clearance issue for such a short runway. Only took off on Runway 12 once on a WN flight years ago which required an immediate LH turn to avoid the city of Dana Beach and the noise issues.

YellowJ wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Is 8,000 feet enough for FLL-DXB nonstop?

Looking at videos of EK at FLL, it doesn't even use the full length of 10L as it stands now, so they'll be okay.

Just because an aircraft doesn't use the full length of a runway in typical ops (which BTW, no scheduled service should be doing) doesn't mean that they don't have to develop their loads/plan with more runway in mind... as all takeoffs have to be calculated for the contingency of an engine loss.

My understanding is the runway will be left open for a few long-haul flights while repairs/construction is ongoing. The same exception was made for Condor the last time the runway repaired.

LAX772LR wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Is 8,000 feet enough for FLL-DXB nonstop?

Looking at videos of EK at FLL, it doesn't even use the full length of 10L as it stands now, so they'll be okay.

Just because an aircraft doesn't use the full length of a runway in typical ops (which BTW, no scheduled service should be doing) doesn't mean that they don't have to develop their loads/plan with more runway in mind... as all takeoffs have to be calculated for the contingency of an engine loss.

Of course multiple calculations come into play, but I'm quite sure 1,000ft isn't going to hurt their ops at their current passenger/cargo level for a 13 hour flight from a sea level base airport at night.

YellowJ wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

Looking at videos of EK at FLL, it doesn't even use the full length of 10L as it stands now, so they'll be okay.

Just because an aircraft doesn't use the full length of a runway in typical ops (which BTW, no scheduled service should be doing) doesn't mean that they don't have to develop their loads/plan with more runway in mind... as all takeoffs have to be calculated for the contingency of an engine loss.

Of course multiple calculations come into play, but I'm quite sure 1,000ft isn't going to hurt their ops at their current passenger/cargo level for a 13 hour flight from a sea level base airport at night.

Sea level yes, but don't forget the temperatures that time of year. FLL gets very hot in the summer and they're going to be closed during some of the hottest (and wettest) months of the year.

SPREE34 wrote:

drdisque wrote:

................ and FLL only had one jet-capable runway until a few years ago, .........

FLL always had 2 jet capable runways. 9L-27R (Now 10L-28R) and 13-31. 13-31 was closed when the 10R-28L extension made it jet capable.

They had 2, but rarely were both in use. It was 99% of the time 9L/27R as the main runway. Why do you think Taxiway C was constructed. To stack departures alongside B when 9L was in use.

YellowJ wrote:

evank516 wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

Of course multiple calculations come into play, but I'm quite sure 1,000ft isn't going to hurt their ops at their current passenger/cargo level for a 13 hour flight from a sea level base airport at night.

Sea level yes, but don't forget the temperatures that time of year. FLL gets very hot in the summer and they're going to be closed during some of the hottest (and wettest) months of the year.

EK leaves at 9pm. At that time FLL is barely 80F. Might be even less due to the coastal effect.

FLL's average lows are in the mid 70s that time of year. Think again.

evank516 wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Just because an aircraft doesn't use the full length of a runway in typical ops (which BTW, no scheduled service should be doing) doesn't mean that they don't have to develop their loads/plan with more runway in mind... as all takeoffs have to be calculated for the contingency of an engine loss.

Of course multiple calculations come into play, but I'm quite sure 1,000ft isn't going to hurt their ops at their current passenger/cargo level for a 13 hour flight from a sea level base airport at night.

Sea level yes, but don't forget the temperatures that time of year. FLL gets very hot in the summer and they're going to be closed during some of the hottest (and wettest) months of the year.

EK leaves at 9pm. At that time FLL is barely 80F. Might be even less due to the coastal effect.

synanthropic wrote:

Will companies start to alter their service, or do think any will upgauge in response? Perhaps it is too early to do anything, though.

I suspect NK's MCO announcement was related to this. Relief valve.

evank516 wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Sea level yes, but don't forget the temperatures that time of year. FLL gets very hot in the summer and they're going to be closed during some of the hottest (and wettest) months of the year.

EK leaves at 9pm. At that time FLL is barely 80F. Might be even less due to the coastal effect.

FLL's average lows are in the mid 70s that time of year. Think again.

Average low is exactly that the average; for the entire area divided, not the actual low. If you think the coastline of FLL is not cooler than the interior of the city especially with a breeze blowing, then that's your prerogative.

jfklganyc wrote:

Such a garbage airport.

Low ceilings; crowded/cramped hallways, gate areas and bathrooms; ramp is a cluster of diagonal taxiways and confusing intersections; limited gate space; and somewhat nasty controllers.

Truly the LGA of Florida.

As for the runway, it was closed 9 or 10 years ago and all ops went to the diagonal runway for several months. That runway is now gone.

What kind of repair job was that and what is happening now?

I normally agree with you on 99% of topics, but I strongly disagree that FLL is the LGA of Florida. You obviously haven’t flown through in the past 3-4 years. With the exception of terminal 3, the gate areas and terminals are not cramped any more, nor are they dimly lit. Delays are nonexistent at FLL, except for weather, unlike LGA where delays are a routine facet of everyday operation. I personally have never dealt with a nasty controller, and I don’t feel the taxiway layout is all that complex, but of course that’s just perspective.

YellowJ wrote:

evank516 wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

EK leaves at 9pm. At that time FLL is barely 80F. Might be even less due to the coastal effect.

FLL's average lows are in the mid 70s that time of year. Think again.

Average low is exactly that the average; for the entire area divided, not the actual low. If you think the coastline of FLL is not cooler than the interior of the city especially with a breeze blowing, then that's your prerogative.

Not saying that at all, considering the fact that I live along the coastal region of the Northeast, I'm very well aware of a coastal location's effects on temperature. Either way, temps don't go below 70 at night regardless, and as someone who has also lived in a coastal region of Florida over the course of his life, I can also tell you that there isn't really a large diurnal variation in temperatures between high and low temperatures in these areas. There is a very good possibility that temperatures can still be around 80 at that time of day, especially in July and August, and also with the high humidity and typical late afternoon thunderstorms that can cause heavy downpours, I can also tell you that the runway surface can still be wet at that time of day, especially with the lack of sunlight at that hour causing evaporation of water on surfaces. And we all know that wet runways can affect runway performance.

evank516 wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

evank516 wrote:

FLL's average lows are in the mid 70s that time of year. Think again.

Average low is exactly that the average; for the entire area divided, not the actual low. If you think the coastline of FLL is not cooler than the interior of the city especially with a breeze blowing, then that's your prerogative.

Not saying that at all, considering the fact that I live along the coastal region of the Northeast, I'm very well aware of a coastal location's effects on temperature. Either way, temps don't go below 70 at night regardless, and as someone who has also lived in a coastal region of Florida over the course of his life, I can also tell you that there isn't really a large diurnal variation in temperatures between high and low temperatures in these areas. There is a very good possibility that temperatures can still be around 80 at that time of day, especially in July and August, and also with the high humidity and typical late afternoon thunderstorms that can cause heavy downpours, I can also tell you that the runway surface can still be wet at that time of day, especially with the lack of sunlight at that hour causing evaporation of water on surfaces. And we all know that wet runways can affect runway performance.

You do realize I said the temp should be about 80 in my original post right? Yet your saying the exact same thing, so what exactly were you debating? Afternoon thunderstorms are a different thing, but the high humidity usually clears the water up when the sun comes back out, which is most of the time. Either way I'm sure EK will be fine, or MCO is right down the road for a pitstop.

YellowJ wrote:

evank516 wrote:

YellowJ wrote:

Average low is exactly that the average; for the entire area divided, not the actual low. If you think the coastline of FLL is not cooler than the interior of the city especially with a breeze blowing, then that's your prerogative.

Not saying that at all, considering the fact that I live along the coastal region of the Northeast, I'm very well aware of a coastal location's effects on temperature. Either way, temps don't go below 70 at night regardless, and as someone who has also lived in a coastal region of Florida over the course of his life, I can also tell you that there isn't really a large diurnal variation in temperatures between high and low temperatures in these areas. There is a very good possibility that temperatures can still be around 80 at that time of day, especially in July and August, and also with the high humidity and typical late afternoon thunderstorms that can cause heavy downpours, I can also tell you that the runway surface can still be wet at that time of day, especially with the lack of sunlight at that hour causing evaporation of water on surfaces. And we all know that wet runways can affect runway performance.

You do realize I said the temp should be about 80 in my original post right? Yet your saying the exact same thing, so what exactly were you debating? Afternoon thunderstorms are a different thing, but the high humidity usually clears the water up when the sun comes back out, which is most of the time. Either way I'm sure EK will be fine, or MCO is right down the road for a pitstop.

I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that it wouldn't even be 80 by then.

FLL last time when it was down to just one Runway because the crosswind runway was shutdown for construction and removal It was typical to see a 30 to 40 min flow control program into FLL.
FLL airport asked each airline to reduce their schedules to lessen the impact for the construction period.

I wouldn't be surprised for those 6mo to see WN possibly shift 10 to 15 flights into PBI.

Everyone saying Spirit is doing this with the MCO adds. But hasn't officially removed the flying from FLL until it sees everyone else's reductions.

Maybe on a long shot WN could add MIA with like 8 to 10 flights. BWI,MDW,BNA,HOU ?

Flyguy