Britains First Sharia Airline

Arion640 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:23 pm

Quite an interesting read. Take a look everyone.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6412648/b ... m-airline/

“Kazi Shafiqur Rahman, a man who calls himself the "halal Richard Branson", also wants modest dress for his female staff and Islamic in-flight meals as part of a bid launch Britain's first "Sharia-compliant" airline.”

I realise it’s on the Sun website but I’m struggling to tell if it’s genuine or just made up for the TV show mentioned.

sw733 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:38 pm

I can't get over the "Halal Richard Branson" nickname. Hilarious.

KICT · Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:42 pm

Hopefully their AOC is denied.

OGLOBAL · Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:43 pm

when we people understand that sharia airline sharia law doesn't exist . sharia means following the five elements of islam : fasting praying giving money to the poor pilgrim and FOLLOWING the law of the land you are at .

SCQ83 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:49 pm

With that plane they are not going to fly to any Muslim country anyway. Not even Morocco. Maybe they can reach Brussels though.

Which could be their first scheduled destinations? I could see Gran Canaria, Ibiza, Mykonos and Tel Aviv being successful for them.

VSMUT · Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:52 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
With that plane they are not going to fly to any Muslim country anyway. Not even Morocco. Maybe they can reach Brussels though.

With that plane I would be surprised if the Sharia onboard service amounts to anything more than a bottle of water...

SCQ83 wrote:
Which could be their first scheduled destinations? I could see Gran Canaria, Ibiza, Mykonos and Tel Aviv being successful for them.

What, Tel Aviv? :lol:

FCOTSTW · Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:18 pm

Just remember that being too strict towards one side on the other led Kuwait Airways to drop the lucrative JFK LHR segment after it refused to transport an Israeli passenger.

Airlines, like any other transport mean, should me "neutral" and should equally cater everybody.

BritTraveller · Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:20 pm

Try getting The Irish to purchase a flight without alcohol lol

vhqpa · Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:36 pm

"Modestly dressed flight attendants"

Does the Jetstream J31/J32 even have a provision for a flight attendant. I can't remember any on my J32 flights.

chepos · Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:43 pm

HAJJ charters from STN, with 20 tech stops enroute based on the equipment (and no luggage).

GBNWB · Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:46 pm

Are cans of Heineken or Tiger included in the ticket price or is it BOB?

Screw flying home from a holiday without a beer.

PlanesNTrains · Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:59 pm

Let people decide who they want to fly. As long as people aren't denied passage, they can choose to serve - or not serve - whatever they want. They just need to be clear up front about what their mission is if that's the case.

Metjetceo · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:01 pm

He has been fundraising for quite a while. I remember seeing his promo video over a year ago. The plan is go go J31 to 737 to larger narrowbodies...if I am not mistaken. His original videos did not use the term Sharia, it was spun as an anti no frills airline (but not full service). Essentially a competitor on key routes to BA...I think It has been a long time since I saw the first video.

Bricktop · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:07 pm

Metjetceo wrote:
He has been fundraising for quite a while. I remember seeing his promo video over a year ago. The plan is go go J31 to 737 to larger narrowbodies...if I am not mistaken. His original videos did not use the term Sharia, it was spun as an anti no frills airline (but not full service). Essentially a competitor on key routes to BA...I think It has been a long time since I saw the first video.

Big order coming at Farnborough?

spinotter · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:10 pm

KICT wrote:
Hopefully their AOC is denied.

No, listen. We have to be tolerant of other beliefs and ways of living, as long as they do the same with us. And most Muslims do that. I lived in Iran for two years and I am going to tell you straight out that the Iranians are the kindest, most hospitable people on earth. Ditto for all Middle Easterners, although I know the other countries less. We have to stop fighting and disrespecting each other. Their culture and pride was savaged by the Western colonial powers and Israel. So they cling to their religion. Over time we can change that relationship, I hope. So a Sharia airline for people who observe Sharia, champagne and paté de foie gras on Air France, and no perks whatsoever on Spirit. Why not?

adamblang · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:13 pm

OGLOBAL wrote:
when we people understand that sharia airline sharia law doesn't exist . sharia means following the five elements of islam : fasting praying giving money to the poor pilgrim and FOLLOWING the law of the land you are at .

Glad someone in this thread is able to use their noggin.

spinotter wrote:
KICT wrote:
Hopefully their AOC is denied.

No, listen. We have to be tolerant of other beliefs and ways of living, as long as they do the same with us. And most Muslims do that. I lived in Iran for two years and I am going to tell you straight out that the Iranians are the kindest, most hospitable people on earth. Ditto for all Middle Easterners, although I know the other countries less. We have to stop fighting and disrespecting each other. Their culture and pride was savaged by the Western colonial powers and Israel. So they cling to their religion. Over time we can change that relationship, I hope. So a Sharia airline for people who observe Sharia, champagne and paté de foie gras on Air France, and no perks whatsoever on Spirit. Why not?

Ding ding ding.

Arion640 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:17 pm

vhqpa wrote:
"Modestly dressed flight attendants"

Does the Jetstream J31/J32 even have a provision for a flight attendant. I can't remember any on my J32 flights.

Not related to this topic but quite a fan of your signature. I remember hearing that on a BA Concorde video.

spinotter · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:20 pm

spinotter wrote:
KICT wrote:
Hopefully their AOC is denied.

No, listen. We have to be tolerant of other beliefs and ways of living, as long as they do the same with us. And most Muslims do that. I lived in Iran for two years and I am going to tell you straight out that the Iranians are the kindest, most hospitable people on earth. Ditto for all Middle Easterners, although I know the other countries less. We have to stop fighting and disrespecting each other. Their culture and pride was savaged by the Western colonial powers and Israel. So they cling to their religion. Over time we can change that relationship, I hope. So a Sharia airline for people who observe Sharia, champagne and paté de foie gras on Air France, and no perks whatsoever on Spirit. Why not?

I just skimmed the article and I sincerely hope that Kazi is successful. He is from Bangladesh, not Saudi Arabia. He cleaned toilets at LCY and that's how he got into aviation. He says that he was so serious about getting the toilet-cleaning job that he showed up in a suit for his interview. I will fly his airline, I kid you not.

pdt2f · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:21 pm

spinotter wrote:
KICT wrote:
Hopefully their AOC is denied.

No, listen. We have to be tolerant of other beliefs and ways of living, as long as they do the same with us. And most Muslims do that. I lived in Iran for two years and I am going to tell you straight out that the Iranians are the kindest, most hospitable people on earth. Ditto for all Middle Easterners, although I know the other countries less. We have to stop fighting and disrespecting each other. Their culture and pride was savaged by the Western colonial powers and Israel. So they cling to their religion. Over time we can change that relationship, I hope. So a Sharia airline for people who observe Sharia, champagne and paté de foie gras on Air France, and no perks whatsoever on Spirit. Why not?

The Middle East was more secular, culturally and politically, 30 years ago. The whole “western colonial powers did it to us” is nonsense, especially since most of the region was ottoman controlled until the 1920s. You lived in Iran, you don’t have to be brainwashed by their propaganda.

Jayafe · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:27 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
With that plane they are not going to fly to any Muslim country anyway. Not even Morocco. Maybe they can reach Brussels though.

When was the last time you checked the % of Islamic population in the countries/regions/areas within the flying range of that plane?

KICT wrote:
Hopefully their AOC is denied.

Then people get surprised and offended when others wish the same for you....

spinotter · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:27 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
With that plane they are not going to fly to any Muslim country anyway. Not even Morocco. Maybe they can reach Brussels though.

Which could be their first scheduled destinations? I could see Gran Canaria, Ibiza, Mykonos and Tel Aviv being successful for them.

And don't forget San Francisco, Las Vegas, New Orleans at Mardi Gras, and Amsterdam, along the same lines. Love your sense of humor.

PlymSpotter · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:46 pm

I've met Kazi a few times now - genuinely nice chap with a lot of ambition. It's an interesting project and he's guided by an experienced team of aviation professionals, which makes it more realistic.

Arion640 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:54 pm

spinotter wrote:
spinotter wrote:
KICT wrote:
Hopefully their AOC is denied.

No, listen. We have to be tolerant of other beliefs and ways of living, as long as they do the same with us. And most Muslims do that. I lived in Iran for two years and I am going to tell you straight out that the Iranians are the kindest, most hospitable people on earth. Ditto for all Middle Easterners, although I know the other countries less. We have to stop fighting and disrespecting each other. Their culture and pride was savaged by the Western colonial powers and Israel. So they cling to their religion. Over time we can change that relationship, I hope. So a Sharia airline for people who observe Sharia, champagne and paté de foie gras on Air France, and no perks whatsoever on Spirit. Why not?

I just skimmed the article and I sincerely hope that Kazi is successful. He is from Bangladesh, not Saudi Arabia. He cleaned toilets at LCY and that's how he got into aviation. He says that he was so serious about getting the toilet-cleaning job that he showed up in a suit for his interview. I will fly his airline, I kid you not.

I also hope Kazi is succesful. But what he shouldn't be doing is applying a certain religion to his Airline. There's enough division in the West as it is without making others feel unwelcome when it comes to Air Transport. How would a Jewish person feel about seeing this let alone flying with his airline?

From a Business point of view he's also making a huge mistake by promoting this as a Muslim Airline. I've shared this article with 3 people this evening (one who does a lot of flying around) and they have all said they wouldn't use it as they would feel unwelcome onboard, it should be a religion/gender/race neutral way of travelling.

It's hard enough to start an airline without applying restrictions to your market, you need every passenger you can get.

PlanesNTrains · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:00 pm

Arion640 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
spinotter wrote:

No, listen. We have to be tolerant of other beliefs and ways of living, as long as they do the same with us. And most Muslims do that. I lived in Iran for two years and I am going to tell you straight out that the Iranians are the kindest, most hospitable people on earth. Ditto for all Middle Easterners, although I know the other countries less. We have to stop fighting and disrespecting each other. Their culture and pride was savaged by the Western colonial powers and Israel. So they cling to their religion. Over time we can change that relationship, I hope. So a Sharia airline for people who observe Sharia, champagne and paté de foie gras on Air France, and no perks whatsoever on Spirit. Why not?

I just skimmed the article and I sincerely hope that Kazi is successful. He is from Bangladesh, not Saudi Arabia. He cleaned toilets at LCY and that's how he got into aviation. He says that he was so serious about getting the toilet-cleaning job that he showed up in a suit for his interview. I will fly his airline, I kid you not.

I also hope Kazi is succesful. But what he shouldn't be doing is applying a certain religion to his Airline. There's enough division in the West as it is without making others feel unwelcome when it comes to Air Transport. How would a Jewish person feel about seeing this let alone flying with his airline?

From a Business point of view he's also making a huge mistake by promoting this as a Muslim Airline. I've shared this article with 3 people this evening (one who does a lot of flying around) and they have all said they wouldn't use it as they would feel unwelcome onboard, it should be a religion/gender/race neutral way of travelling.

It's hard enough to start an airline without applying restrictions to your market, you need every passenger you can get.

While I'm sure there would be many people who would shun the airline for appealing to a Muslim "lifestyle", there are obviously also many people who would seek it out precisely because it matches their lifestyle. I don't get the pushback? He's doing exactly what anyone starting a business would do - finding a niche and exploiting it.

artofzen · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:02 pm

pdt2f wrote:
spinotter wrote:
KICT wrote:
Hopefully their AOC is denied.

No, listen. We have to be tolerant of other beliefs and ways of living, as long as they do the same with us. And most Muslims do that. I lived in Iran for two years and I am going to tell you straight out that the Iranians are the kindest, most hospitable people on earth. Ditto for all Middle Easterners, although I know the other countries less. We have to stop fighting and disrespecting each other. Their culture and pride was savaged by the Western colonial powers and Israel. So they cling to their religion. Over time we can change that relationship, I hope. So a Sharia airline for people who observe Sharia, champagne and paté de foie gras on Air France, and no perks whatsoever on Spirit. Why not?

The Middle East was more secular, culturally and politically, 30 years ago. The whole “western colonial powers did it to us” is nonsense,.

Is it? that Middle East was the fading part of its colonial influences.

gatibosgru · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:03 pm

Too niche, I doubt there's a future for this.

LH658 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:05 pm

Why call it Sharia Airline, just don't serve booze, pork etc, so non Muslim would buy ticket without knowing until he on board. Telling people you are sharia airline is gunna drive Non Muslim probably away.

chonetsao · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:11 pm

I am going to launch a crowd funding for a local British airline to serve gin and pork pot in the cabin and have a lavatory large enough for people to join Mile High club. Ah maybe will learn from the Germans to dedicate an area for all natural flying experience too (means areas for nudist). I think I am going to call it the SSS airlines. SSS stands for Sun Sand and Sin. Oh well, I need to have someone to do some PR for me and brand myself a Sinned Richard Branson. Any takers here?

artofzen · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:12 pm

LH658 wrote:
Why call it Sharia Airline, just don't serve booze, pork etc, so non Muslim would buy ticket without knowing until he on board. Telling people you are sharia airline is gunna drive Non Muslim probably away.

Pronounce it like Shania Twain's name is nicer, Shurr-aa-ya.

Arion640 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:15 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
spinotter wrote:

I just skimmed the article and I sincerely hope that Kazi is successful. He is from Bangladesh, not Saudi Arabia. He cleaned toilets at LCY and that's how he got into aviation. He says that he was so serious about getting the toilet-cleaning job that he showed up in a suit for his interview. I will fly his airline, I kid you not.

I also hope Kazi is succesful. But what he shouldn't be doing is applying a certain religion to his Airline. There's enough division in the West as it is without making others feel unwelcome when it comes to Air Transport. How would a Jewish person feel about seeing this let alone flying with his airline?

From a Business point of view he's also making a huge mistake by promoting this as a Muslim Airline. I've shared this article with 3 people this evening (one who does a lot of flying around) and they have all said they wouldn't use it as they would feel unwelcome onboard, it should be a religion/gender/race neutral way of travelling.

It's hard enough to start an airline without applying restrictions to your market, you need every passenger you can get.

While I'm sure there would be many people who would shun the airline for appealing to a Muslim "lifestyle", there are obviously also many people who would seek it out precisely because it matches their lifestyle. I don't get the pushback? He's doing exactly what anyone starting a business would do - finding a niche and exploiting it.

Well I make two observations:

1. This is a massive slap in a face for Intergration and helping other faiths to feel welcome.

2. From a business point of view, London Ashford to Waterford is mentioned as a potential route. Will there really be enough Muslims wanting to fly that route? Yes obviously non Muslims will use this airline out of convenience but not that many.

A lot of the muslims I know aren't even interested in Sharia law and are quite casual torwards it. One I work with drinks alcohol, another I was in school with gave it up completely.

embraer420 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:15 pm

spinotter wrote:
KICT wrote:
Hopefully their AOC is denied.

No, listen. We have to be tolerant of other beliefs and ways of living, as long as they do the same with us. And most Muslims do that. I lived in Iran for two years and I am going to tell you straight out that the Iranians are the kindest, most hospitable people on earth. Ditto for all Middle Easterners, although I know the other countries less. We have to stop fighting and disrespecting each other. Their culture and pride was savaged by the Western colonial powers and Israel. So they cling to their religion. Over time we can change that relationship, I hope. So a Sharia airline for people who observe Sharia, champagne and paté de foie gras on Air France, and no perks whatsoever on Spirit. Why not?

Well,I don't think many British people would want to fly on an airline that forces them to stick to strict Islamic dress codes. Frankly it's rather scary that this is happening, and if people in Britain launched a Christian airline they would probably be denied an AOC and be branded as right wing or conservative. Not to mention the fact that there's no alcohol onboard(well they couldn't fit any in that plane anyway

)and the food is all halal. And they're flying from Ashford to Waterford? That route would fail even if the airline was normal. I know people down in Waterford who wouldn't fly VLM because they think they're "too weird". I wonder how they'll feel about this crowd!

embraer420 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:21 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I am going to launch a crowd funding for a local British airline to serve gin and pork pot in the cabin and have a lavatory large enough for people to join Mile High club. Ah maybe will learn from the Germans to dedicate an area for all natural flying experience too (means areas for nudist). I think I am going to call it the SSS airlines. SSS stands for Sun Sand and Sin. Oh well, I need to have someone to do some PR for me and brand myself a Sinned Richard Branson. Any takers here?

Count me in! FAs should wear flat caps. And tweed.

Arion640 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:32 pm

embraer420 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
KICT wrote:
Hopefully their AOC is denied.

No, listen. We have to be tolerant of other beliefs and ways of living, as long as they do the same with us. And most Muslims do that. I lived in Iran for two years and I am going to tell you straight out that the Iranians are the kindest, most hospitable people on earth. Ditto for all Middle Easterners, although I know the other countries less. We have to stop fighting and disrespecting each other. Their culture and pride was savaged by the Western colonial powers and Israel. So they cling to their religion. Over time we can change that relationship, I hope. So a Sharia airline for people who observe Sharia, champagne and paté de foie gras on Air France, and no perks whatsoever on Spirit. Why not?

Well,I don't think many British people would want to fly on an airline that forces them to stick to strict Islamic dress codes. Frankly it's rather scary that this is happening, and if people in Britain launched a Christian airline they would probably be denied an AOC and be branded as right wing or conservative. Not to mention the fact that there's no alcohol onboard(well they couldn't fit any in that plane anyway )and the food is all halal. And they're flying from Ashford to Waterford? That route would fail even if the airline was normal. I know people down in Waterford who wouldn't fly VLM because they think they're "too weird". I wonder how they'll feel about this crowd!

Sadly very true words.

Also not sure how well it would go down with deeply religious Irish citizens when flying into Waterford.

TheFlyingDisk · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:34 pm

LH658 wrote:
Why call it Sharia Airline, just don't serve booze, pork etc, so non Muslim would buy ticket without knowing until he on board. Telling people you are sharia airline is gunna drive Non Muslim probably away.

Indeed. The best Sharia compliant airlines are the ones that just do it without any fanfare - like Saudia or Royal Brunei.

airzona11 · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:35 pm

I get there are niche airlines, I guess this guy and his investors think the niche is willing to pay a premium to fly this airline vs other options. Either way, won't amount to much.

lebda · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:46 pm

In other news: airliners.net is outraged at nothing again.

This service wasn't meant to cater towards you. Nobody's forcing you to use it at gunpoint. Don't like it, then choose another airline.

If somebody wants to start an airline where people from smaller, specific communities might feel safer using them, I don't see why not. Doesn't matter if it's Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, etc.

vhtje · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:48 pm

Can we please fix the thread title? It should be "Britain's First Sharia Airline" i.e. with correct use of the possessive case. Sorry but it is driving my OCD around the bend.

After reading the article, I am no clearer on where he will be based, or where his airline will fly. He cannot be very media savvy if he isn't using an interview with The Sun to plug his airline.

BritTraveller · Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:53 pm

I just don't get the point, it's not as if Muslims aren't able to fly to on conventional airlines. If you're flying BA or VS there will be a Halal meal and you just don't purchase alcohol. Segregation isn't a way forward.

TS-IOR · Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:33 pm

Malaysia Rayani Air ceased operations. It can raise funds, obtain AOC and all the due diligence, but is it economically viable?! It's a business and even Halal businesses can fail if basic math is not met and even with travelling prayers broadcasted before take-off.

LAXLHR · Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:26 am

SCQ83 wrote:
With that plane they are not going to fly to any Muslim country anyway. Not even Morocco. Maybe they can reach Brussels though.

Which could be their first scheduled destinations? I could see Gran Canaria, Ibiza, Mykonos and Tel Aviv being successful for them.

Yes, Tel Aviv SHOULD be their first choice for sure. LMAO!! Someone SCQ83, needs to brush up on a few things ;-)

mariner · Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:56 am

I've flown on several airlines that don't serve grog - I haven't had a problem.

If you want alcohol - fly another airline. People want to pray before they take off? Fine by me, I don't believe in whom they praying to anyway.

What other people do is their business.

mariner

lightsaber · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:06 am

Keep the thread on topic. It is becoming far too political with too many side conversations.

musman9853 · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:11 am

BritTraveller wrote:
I just don't get the point, it's not as if Muslims aren't able to fly to on conventional airlines. If you're flying BA or VS there will be a Halal meal and you just don't purchase alcohol. Segregation isn't a way forward.

This. I'm Muslim and failing to see the point of this airline. Just ask for water when the FA asks what you want to drink. And a lot of airlines have halal/veggie meals.

lightsaber · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:23 am

Now to post as a user. They say they won't enforce Sharia, they offer it. It is 500,000 pounds to set up a turboprop airline. I'm seeing enthusiasm, but not a well thought out business strategy.
They have an item to get attention. Is that enough.

Starbucks rule of marketing is attract the young women to your business and everyone else follows. Will it attract more young women customers or drive more away? If the later, a dead business case. If the former, a good niche. I'm sorry, but this seems like an airline marketed to men (that is just my opinion) and that doesn't work in today's diverse economy.

The ULCC onslaught means a startup needs ancillary revenue. I'm curious how much of the revenue per passenger is alcohol on British originating short flights.

Lightsaber

mariner · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:25 am

musman9853 wrote:
This. I'm Muslim and failing to see the point of this airline. Just ask for water when the FA asks what you want to drink. And a lot of airlines have halal/veggie meals.

He wants to start his own airline\, like Michael Bishop and Stelios Haji-Ioannou. He thinks he's found a niche that'll make money. I doubt it but I wish him luck.

mariner

Jetty · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:30 am

lightsaber wrote:
They say they won't enforce Sharia, they offer it.

In which way doesn't a regular airline 'offer' a non-enforceable Sharia? Most have suited meal options available. The only potential difference that comes to mind is the attire of the cabin-crew. But if it isn't enforced on other passengers you might still have a woman in short skirt sitting next to you, and many regular airlines don't have particularly revealing crew-outfits anyway.

All other things possible, like men and woman sitting apart, dress-codes, offering only halal meals etc. would mean they do enforce Sharia on all passengers.

lightsaber · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:31 am

Folks, this is a very hot button topic.
Discuss the topic, not other posters. Disrespecting other users violates rule 1A (Hint, 1st rule).
Also, please see the rules on 7 (moderation).
If you think posts violate the forum rules, please review them and, if appropriate, report them.
Forum rules:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1393247

We as moderators want to encourage broad discussion. But we must keep it civil.

MaverickM11 · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:46 am

Halal Richard Branson...as if Richard Branson’s Airlines are money spinners. Should go over like a lead balloon.

Super80Fan · Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:09 am

Wish him luck, although the "Sharia" aspect aside, I don't know how successful this will be with one Jetstream 31 unless he starts out doing charter flights.

Francoflier · Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:02 am

I don't see why there is so much outrage over the religious aspect of it. If it wasn't for this, we would all see it exactly for what it is: another hopeful airline with big dreams which will likely never see the light or day or, at best, go bankrupt after a short while.

Underneath that sharia gimmick, I just don't see a business case. Not to mention that given the current societal climate in Europe, this is likely to scare a lot of investors. Investing in a start-up airline is risky enough as it is...

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