747-400 conversions (PAX to F) going forward

aristoenigma · Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:07 pm

As the sunsetting of the 747 PAX continues about what percentage of waning 747-400 PAX planes will get converted to freighter? Is the difference in 748 F's price and a converted 744 PAX still hugely determinative. Or are other options existing for freight operators?

Boair · Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:55 pm

None.
There haven't been since a few years, and with all those 747-400F and BCF in the desert I dont think anybody is interested in converting anymore.

JamesCousins · Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:08 pm

aristoenigma wrote:
Or are other options existing for freight operators?

Factory & converted 777F's seem to killing it tbh in terms of big freighters. Not as good as the 747 at oversized cargo, with no front door loading, but aside from that they seem to be the pick...

Spacepope · Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:11 pm

What's widely regarded as the last two conversions were completed last year for Asiana, where they converted 2 744Ms from combi to full cargo (so the least change possible on their own metal). If further converted cargo capacity is needed you will either finally see someone bite the bullet on the 777p2f, see a few more A330p2f, or like on the Hawaii runs see the 747 get replaced with converted 767s.

Spacepope · Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:58 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
Or are other options existing for freight operators?

Factory & converted 777F's seem to killing it tbh in terms of big freighters. Not as good as the 747 at oversized cargo, with no front door loading, but aside from that they seem to be the pick...

Converted 777Fs? Where? Show your work.

aristoenigma · Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:40 pm

I had not heard any real news on a 777p2f just a maybe from Bedek.in Israel for an unnamed client about a year ago. And Boeing looking at the possibility per Bloomberg article about two months ago.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nv-436572/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cargo-line

I have heard lots of 767s are getting converted to F.

flyingclrs727 · Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:49 pm

aristoenigma wrote:
As the sunsetting of the 747 PAX continues about what percentage of waning 747-400 PAX planes will get converted to freighter? Is the difference in 748 F's price and a converted 744 PAX still hugely determinative. Or are other options existing for freight operators?

Nobody wants 744 P2F, because it is less efficient than the 744F, and 747 freighters nowadays are acquired for long haul freight. Because they fly long routes and have high utilization, fuel efficiency is more important than capital cost.

QF744ER · Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:27 pm

Boair wrote:
None.
There haven't been since a few years, and with all those 747-400F and BCF in the desert I dont think anybody is interested in converting anymore.

Asiana has converted one to a BDSF in the last 12 months HL7421.

Boair · Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:46 am

QF744ER wrote:
Boair wrote:
None.
There haven't been since a few years, and with all those 747-400F and BCF in the desert I dont think anybody is interested in converting anymore.

Asiana has converted one to a BDSF in the last 12 months HL7421.

My bad, didn't know that !

CX747 · Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:50 am

The 747 BCF program is for almost certainly closed down. There are plenty of 747BCF airframes available in the desert if one really has the requirement. The market for used nose loading 747-400Fs is becoming extremely tight. If the cargo market continues upward, then the only options in that "class" will be new 747Fs or 777Fs.

Time will tell if a 777 P2F program takes off. Right now, the 767F new build and P2F program is eating up all the requirements for the smaller class aircraft.

lightsaber · Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:51 am

Boair wrote:
QF744ER wrote:
Boair wrote:
None.
There haven't been since a few years, and with all those 747-400F and BCF in the desert I dont think anybody is interested in converting anymore.

Asiana has converted one to a BDSF in the last 12 months HL7421.

My bad, didn't know that !

This is why I come onto a.net, to learn. I would have sworn there were no recent 744 P2F conversions! Good news.

Lightsaber

diverted · Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:51 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Boair wrote:
QF744ER wrote:

Asiana has converted one to a BDSF in the last 12 months HL7421.

My bad, didn't know that !

This is why I come onto a.net, to learn. I would have sworn there were no recent 744 P2F conversions! Good news.

Lightsaber

For what it's worth, HL7421 was built as a combi, so the conversion would be much less intensive than a regular P2F, and would definitely be a factor in the decision making.

It also looks like HL7423 also got a conversion, here she is in TLV, she was also a combi

musman9853 · Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:18 pm

Combi being combined pax and freight? how does that work

JamesCousins · Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:55 pm

Spacepope wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
Or are other options existing for freight operators?

Factory & converted 777F's seem to killing it tbh in terms of big freighters. Not as good as the 747 at oversized cargo, with no front door loading, but aside from that they seem to be the pick...

Converted 777Fs? Where? Show your work.

viewtopic.php?t=1377987

diverted · Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:02 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:

Factory & converted 777F's seem to killing it tbh in terms of big freighters. Not as good as the 747 at oversized cargo, with no front door loading, but aside from that they seem to be the pick...

Converted 777Fs? Where? Show your work.

viewtopic.php?t=1377987

No further info other than Bedek is working on it. Far from converted 777's "killing it tbh"

I'm interested to see the amount of work the 777's will need for a P2F conversion. I believe Bedek acquired one as a prototype for conversions, but haven't heard anything further, though I'm glad to be proven wrong.

777PHX · Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:30 pm

musman9853 wrote:
Combi being combined pax and freight? how does that work

The main deck is truncated at the rear and there's a cargo area between the tail and the pax cabin. There's also a larger cargo door towards the tail of the aircraft on the main deck. There were few takers and I believe the FAA will no longer certify new combi designs with cargo and passengers on the same deck because of the fire hazard.

Spacepope · Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:26 am

diverted wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

Converted 777Fs? Where? Show your work.

viewtopic.php?t=1377987

No further info other than Bedek is working on it. Far from converted 777's "killing it tbh"

I'm interested to see the amount of work the 777's will need for a P2F conversion. I believe Bedek acquired one as a prototype for conversions, but haven't heard anything further, though I'm glad to be proven wrong.

The Bedek prototype was broken up. A 777 P2F conversion has never flown. "Killing it" seems to be pure fever dream.

musman9853 · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:07 am

777PHX wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Combi being combined pax and freight? how does that work

The main deck is truncated at the rear and there's a cargo area between the tail and the pax cabin. There's also a larger cargo door towards the tail of the aircraft on the main deck. There were few takers and I believe the FAA will no longer certify new combi designs with cargo and passengers on the same deck because of the fire hazard.

Ty!

trex8 · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:33 am

musman9853 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Combi being combined pax and freight? how does that work

The main deck is truncated at the rear and there's a cargo area between the tail and the pax cabin. There's also a larger cargo door towards the tail of the aircraft on the main deck. There were few takers and I believe the FAA will no longer certify new combi designs with cargo and passengers on the same deck because of the fire hazard.

Ty!

The FAA will certify combis and there are newly modified 737 combis since they stopped making those and 747combis. It just costs an arm and a leg which most airlines dont want to pay.

juliuswong · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:41 am

musman9853 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Combi being combined pax and freight? how does that work

The main deck is truncated at the rear and there's a cargo area between the tail and the pax cabin. There's also a larger cargo door towards the tail of the aircraft on the main deck. There were few takers and I believe the FAA will no longer certify new combi designs with cargo and passengers on the same deck because of the fire hazard.

Ty!

To give an illustration how a 747 Combi layout is, KLM Fleet Page is a well of information treasure: https://www.klm.com/travel/at_en/prepar ... 0Combi.htm

Stitch · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:44 am

777PHX wrote:
...I believe the FAA will no longer certify new combi designs with cargo and passengers on the same deck because of the fire hazard.

As noted, new combination frames are being certified, they just lack the flexibility of earlier designs due to the bulkhead between the cargo and passenger areas needing to be fixed rather than being moveable to tailor to the specific passenger and cargo load for each flight.

diverted wrote:
I'm interested to see the amount of work the 777's will need for a P2F conversion.

For general cargo densities, the CFRP floor beams will need to be replaced with aluminum ones which appears to be a very labor-intensive (and therefore, expensive) process.

juliuswong · Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:48 am

diverted wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

Converted 777Fs? Where? Show your work.

viewtopic.php?t=1377987

No further info other than Bedek is working on it. Far from converted 777's "killing it tbh"

I'm interested to see the amount of work the 777's will need for a P2F conversion. I believe Bedek acquired one as a prototype for conversions, but haven't heard anything further, though I'm glad to be proven wrong.

I read something like the B777 floor was proven to be too weak for P2F conversion and the amount of money required to fortify it is deemed uneconomical hence the prototype was abandoned. As far I I know all B772A and -ER version have this issue, hence all of those retired aircraft were scrapped. Did Boeing resolved this issue with later built B77W?

lightsaber · Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:13 am

juliuswong wrote:
I read something like the B777 floor was proven to be too weak for P2F conversion and the amount of money required to fortify it is deemed uneconomical hence the prototype was abandoned. As far I I know all B772A and -ER version have this issue, hence all of those retired aircraft were scrapped. Did Boeing resolved this issue with later built B77W?

The CFRP beams have always been rated for too low of floor loading for freight duty. This is a weight saving feature of all passenger 777s. 100%, no resolution for it is a feature to save weight.

It will cost extra to replace the floor beams. But someone clever could come up with tooling.

I haven't heard anything for 11 months from Bedek. Did they ever get a launch customer?

At this time, I believe the value of used 777s are still too high for a pax to freight conversion involving changing out the floor beams.

I'm not aware of a 77A offered young enough to be worth converting (with the floor beam caveat). 77Es had a strong aftermarket, until they didn't a few years ago.

I think there will be a 777 conversion, but only in 2018 did freight rates go high enough to justify developing a conversion. Will rates stay high enough long enough? If so that would also help the thread topic, 744P2F conversions too.

Lightsaber

USAirKid · Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:36 am

JamesCousins wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:

Factory & converted 777F's seem to killing it tbh in terms of big freighters. Not as good as the 747 at oversized cargo, with no front door loading, but aside from that they seem to be the pick...

Converted 777Fs? Where? Show your work.

viewtopic.php?t=1377987

Here's a clickable link for everyone else viewtopic.php?t=1377987

juliuswong · Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:47 am

lightsaber wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
I read something like the B777 floor was proven to be too weak for P2F conversion and the amount of money required to fortify it is deemed uneconomical hence the prototype was abandoned. As far I I know all B772A and -ER version have this issue, hence all of those retired aircraft were scrapped. Did Boeing resolved this issue with later built B77W?

The CFRP beams have always been rated for too low of floor loading for freight duty. This is a weight saving feature of all passenger 777s. 100%, no resolution for it is a feature to save weight.

It will cost extra to replace the floor beams. But someone clever could come up with tooling.

I haven't heard anything for 11 months from Bedek. Did they ever get a launch customer?

At this time, I believe the value of used 777s are still too high for a pax to freight conversion involving changing out the floor beams.

I'm not aware of a 77A offered young enough to be worth converting (with the floor beam caveat). 77Es had a strong aftermarket, until they didn't a few years ago.

I think there will be a 777 conversion, but only in 2018 did freight rates go high enough to justify developing a conversion. Will rates stay high enough long enough? If so that would also help the thread topic, 744P2F conversions too.

Lightsaber

From news archives, IAI- Bedek mentioned they have launch customer but it was never identified. Yes, the 777 value is still pretty high now for the market to initiate P2F conversion.

Most of the B772A/ER coming off airlines for past two years were those heavily used on domestic and regional flight, hence the cycles/hours maybe not in favour for conversion and there aren't enough interested party.

I think we would see the same thing happening to 767 on 777 like the sudden high uptake of pre-loved 767 now when 787/77X and A330neo/A350 production are in full swing. The freighter market has improved quite significantly for past few quarters, however many airlines have either hutodnw or divested/ sold off their cargo division. What remain are those pure cargo carrier and airlines which have financial and operation muscle to sustain their cargo operation (e.g. KLM Cargo, Cathay Cargo etc)

GCT64 · Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:58 am

Spacepope wrote:
diverted wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:

viewtopic.php?t=1377987

No further info other than Bedek is working on it. Far from converted 777's "killing it tbh"

I'm interested to see the amount of work the 777's will need for a P2F conversion. I believe Bedek acquired one as a prototype for conversions, but haven't heard anything further, though I'm glad to be proven wrong.

The Bedek prototype was broken up. A 777 P2F conversion has never flown. "Killing it" seems to be pure fever dream.

N105GT (ex-MH's 9M-MRI) arrived in TLV for Bedek in November 2013, by the end of 2015 it was in a derelict state at TLV and most people believe it has now been scrapped (although I don't think this has been fully confirmed). So the evidence seems to indicate that Bedek was working on it, but isn't any longer.

aristoenigma · Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:27 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
As the sunsetting of the 747 PAX continues about what percentage of waning 747-400 PAX planes will get converted to freighter? Is the difference in 748 F's price and a converted 744 PAX still hugely determinative. Or are other options existing for freight operators?

Nobody wants 744 P2F, because it is less efficient than the 744F, and 747 freighters nowadays are acquired for long haul freight. Because they fly long routes and have high utilization, fuel efficiency is more important than capital cost.

Interesting. will it also be a less efficient option many years from now to convert 748 PAX to freighter when the accountants deem enough depreciation?

flyingclrs727 · Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:33 pm

trex8 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
777PHX wrote:

The main deck is truncated at the rear and there's a cargo area between the tail and the pax cabin. There's also a larger cargo door towards the tail of the aircraft on the main deck. There were few takers and I believe the FAA will no longer certify new combi designs with cargo and passengers on the same deck because of the fire hazard.

Ty!

The FAA will certify combis and there are newly modified 737 combis since they stopped making those and 747combis. It just costs an arm and a leg which most airlines dont want to pay.

But the 737 combos have the cargo in front with passengers in the rear. Protecting passengers from cargo in a crash is much harder with the cargo section behind the passenger section as on the 747 combo.

flyingclrs727 · Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:53 pm

aristoenigma wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
As the sunsetting of the 747 PAX continues about what percentage of waning 747-400 PAX planes will get converted to freighter? Is the difference in 748 F's price and a converted 744 PAX still hugely determinative. Or are other options existing for freight operators?

Nobody wants 744 P2F, because it is less efficient than the 744F, and 747 freighters nowadays are acquired for long haul freight. Because they fly long routes and have high utilization, fuel efficiency is more important than capital cost.

Interesting. will it also be a less efficient option many years from now to convert 748 PAX to freighter when the accountants deem enough depreciation?

I think it was a factor on many airlines passing on the 748i. There wasn't enough improvement in CASM over the 77W to justify the larger size and decreased flexibility. Then there was the uncertainty that there would be any residual value if retired from passenger service at midlife. There should be enough 748i stored around the world with lots of life left in them for conversion to special applications like engine test platforms and LCF's for decades to come after 748i's are retired from passenger service.

NameOmitted · Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:50 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
trex8 wrote:

But the 737 combos have the cargo in front with passengers in the rear. Protecting passengers from cargo in a crash is much harder with the cargo section behind the passenger section as on the 747 combo.

My understanding is that the reason the 737 combi has cargo forward is access to the cargo door. With the sweep of the wing and the horizontal plane of the trail, there is limited room to access a cargo door aft.

aristoenigma · Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:15 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

Nobody wants 744 P2F, because it is less efficient than the 744F, and 747 freighters nowadays are acquired for long haul freight. Because they fly long routes and have high utilization, fuel efficiency is more important than capital cost.

Interesting. will it also be a less efficient option many years from now to convert 748 PAX to freighter when the accountants deem enough depreciation?

I think it was a factor on many airlines passing on the 748i. There wasn't enough improvement in CASM over the 77W to justify the larger size and decreased flexibility. Then there was the uncertainty that there would be any residual value if retired from passenger service at midlife. There should be enough 748i stored around the world with lots of life left in them for conversion to special applications like engine test platforms and LCF's for decades to come after 748i's are retired from passenger service.

So how much difference in efficiency is there between a factory 744F and a 744P2F? Is it based on weight changes on conversion? Is there a similar difference on a theoretical 748P2F in future.

flyingclrs727 · Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:47 am

aristoenigma wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:

Interesting. will it also be a less efficient option many years from now to convert 748 PAX to freighter when the accountants deem enough depreciation?

I think it was a factor on many airlines passing on the 748i. There wasn't enough improvement in CASM over the 77W to justify the larger size and decreased flexibility. Then there was the uncertainty that there would be any residual value if retired from passenger service at midlife. There should be enough 748i stored around the world with lots of life left in them for conversion to special applications like engine test platforms and LCF's for decades to come after 748i's are retired from passenger service.

So how much difference in efficiency is there between a factory 744F and a 744P2F? Is it based on weight changes on conversion? Is there a similar difference on a theoretical 748P2F in future.

I'm not sure how much difference there is. As I recall the main deck floor has to be torn out and replaced with a metal floor. Also the extra weight of the stretched upper deck adds to MZFW and decreases the cargo available. The 784i is longer, so that's an even bigger penalty. There are still 744F and 744P2F stored in the desert. As long as that's the case, no one will be interested in converting existing 744's. It's possible some airline might want to convert the QF 744ER's that will be retiring. They are early 2000's build and have a higher MTOW than the 744 and 744F.

UAEflyer · Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:50 am

Slightly off topic...
Where is the combi 747 used to fly for UAE government ? I think it was A6-COM ... was it converted to fully cargo jet ?

Phosphorus · Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:59 am

aristoenigma wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:

Interesting. will it also be a less efficient option many years from now to convert 748 PAX to freighter when the accountants deem enough depreciation?

I think it was a factor on many airlines passing on the 748i. There wasn't enough improvement in CASM over the 77W to justify the larger size and decreased flexibility. Then there was the uncertainty that there would be any residual value if retired from passenger service at midlife. There should be enough 748i stored around the world with lots of life left in them for conversion to special applications like engine test platforms and LCF's for decades to come after 748i's are retired from passenger service.

So how much difference in efficiency is there between a factory 744F and a 744P2F? Is it based on weight changes on conversion? Is there a similar difference on a theoretical 748P2F in future.

Well, one key difference, clearly, is the front cargo door. It's available on purpose-built freighters, and obviously not available on converted ones, regardless of the generation. That feature is important (and sometimes a deal breaker) for some operators.
Stretched upper deck of former passenger birds, vs. short upper deck of purpose-built freighters, is one item that adds weight to P2F conversions.

aemoreira1981 · Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:56 pm

Other than Cargolux, what freight forwarders absolutely need the front cargo door capability and thus can't use a 747-400(BCF/BDSF) or a 777F? The latter is smaller with about 10t less capacity, but can fly farther at maximum MTOW. The 777 freighter has likely killed the 747-400 conversion market and there are also 747-400 converted freighters sitting in the desert waiting for others to run out of hours.

yochai · Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:58 pm

GCT64 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
diverted wrote:

No further info other than Bedek is working on it. Far from converted 777's "killing it tbh"

I'm interested to see the amount of work the 777's will need for a P2F conversion. I believe Bedek acquired one as a prototype for conversions, but haven't heard anything further, though I'm glad to be proven wrong.

The Bedek prototype was broken up. A 777 P2F conversion has never flown. "Killing it" seems to be pure fever dream.

N105GT (ex-MH's 9M-MRI) arrived in TLV for Bedek in November 2013, by the end of 2015 it was in a derelict state at TLV and most people believe it has now been scrapped (although I don't think this has been fully confirmed). So the evidence seems to indicate that Bedek was working on it, but isn't any longer.

The fuselage is still intact albeit missing some parts that were cut off.

aristoenigma · Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:14 pm

UAEflyer wrote:
Slightly off topic...
Where is the combi 747 used to fly for UAE government ? I think it was A6-COM ... was it converted to fully cargo jet ?

A6-COM is I believe still flown by Dubai Air Wing. I think for the Emir. Not sure it was ever converted to freighter. I know it originally was an Air Canada 744 Combi. I see that in late 2017 Dubai Air Wing bought the 744 Combi that was being flown by the Government of Morocco.(A6-DAW) It seems then that Dubai Air Wing flies two 744 Combis, (A6-COM and A6-DAW.) and that Dubai seems to have a use for Combis or maybe the 6 year older A6-COM needs replacing eventually by A6-DAW. One site says that the newer A6-DAW was stored.

UAEflyer · Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:35 pm

How about the Saudi 744 (HZ-WBT7) is this combi too ?
It never flew for months now!

aristoenigma · Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:24 pm

UAEflyer wrote:
How about the Saudi 744 (HZ-WBT7) is this combi too ?
It never flew for months now!

That was originally an Air China PAX 744 built in 1992. Became a Saudi Prince's private plane in 2005. Same prince converted an Airbus A380 to a private air yacht but there was some sort of Saudi crackdown so not sure who owns or flies either private plane.

VHOGU · Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:10 pm

Besides where they are built and who they are converted by, what’s the difference between a BCF and a BDSF?

CX747 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:05 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Other than Cargolux, what freight forwarders absolutely need the front cargo door capability and thus can't use a 747-400(BCF/BDSF) or a 777F? The latter is smaller with about 10t less capacity, but can fly farther at maximum MTOW. The 777 freighter has likely killed the 747-400 conversion market and there are also 747-400 converted freighters sitting in the desert waiting for others to run out of hours.

Atlas/Polar Air, UPS and Air Bridge Cargo to name a few. It is one of those items where the old saying of, “when you need it, your are going to need it” applies. Over the next 10 years, I would assume 747 production will end. That leaves it to cargo haulers maybe 40+ years from now to figure out how to load things that only a nose loaded 747 can take.

FrmrKSEngr · Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:31 am

CX747 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Other than Cargolux, what freight forwarders absolutely need the front cargo door capability and thus can't use a 747-400(BCF/BDSF) or a 777F? The latter is smaller with about 10t less capacity, but can fly farther at maximum MTOW. The 777 freighter has likely killed the 747-400 conversion market and there are also 747-400 converted freighters sitting in the desert waiting for others to run out of hours.

Atlas/Polar Air, UPS and Air Bridge Cargo to name a few. It is one of those items where the old saying of, “when you need it, your are going to need it” applies. Over the next 10 years, I would assume 747 production will end. That leaves it to cargo haulers maybe 40+ years from now to figure out how to load things that only a nose loaded 747 can take.

If you can't tip the nose, swing the tail. Should be easier with fly by wire controls.

Max Q · Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:47 am

A side cargo door twice the width of the current doors would also allow far longer loads to be ‘angled in’

Not as flexible as the nose door but
an improvement from over not having one at all

Channex757 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:59 am

VHOGU wrote:
Besides where they are built and who they are converted by, what’s the difference between a BCF and a BDSF?

Supplementary Type Certificates. The two versions have separate approvals.

The BCF version is also allegedly lighter than the Bedek version.

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