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Bjm0517
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Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:11 pm

I looked for a similar thread but couldn’t find anything

My question is will KLM ever order a Narrow Body airplane from Airbus? I know AF operates Airbus Narrowbodies but will their ever be a KLM Airbus A320 or any Narrow Body Airbus order from KLM?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:18 pm

Here, one of these may help:
Image

But until those become available en masse, the answer's the same it was yesterday and the same as it'll be tomorrow:
The airline will order what best suits their needs + is available at the time it's needed + offers the most competitive price.

If that's Airbus someday, they'll get that. If it's not, then they won't.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Slash787
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:28 pm

Not in this lifetime.
 
Jerry123
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:09 pm

They seem happy with the 737 so i don't see why they would change or need to change to Airbus.
 
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:06 pm

Why haven't they still ordered 737MAX?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Iemand91
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:09 pm

“We will launch a call for tenders to renew part of the HOP!, Air France, Transavia and KLM fleet to manufacturers Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer. We want to find a good offer for the best price. The specifications of the tender will be released in the first quarter of 2018 and we will probably decide by the end of this year.”

Jean-Marc Janaillac, CEO of Air France-KLM on a French Senate hearing on January 18th, 2018.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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American 767
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:03 am

Jerry123 wrote:
They seem happy with the 737 so i don't see why they would change or need to change to Airbus.


Me neither I don't see why, other than the fact that Air France has a lot of Airbus narrowbodies in its fleet. Likewise one would ask: "Why didn't Air France order NG737s?" The only reason I see why Air France would buy NG 737s is KLM and Transavia have those.
Ben Soriano
 
alan3
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:39 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Here, one of these may help:
Image

But until those become available en masse, the answer's the same it was yesterday and the same as it'll be tomorrow:
The airline will order what best suits their needs + is available at the time it's needed + offers the most competitive price.

If that's Airbus someday, they'll get that. If it's not, then they won't.


Well basically the answer to any post could be "well, the airline's gonna do what the airline wants to do". So, we may as well do away with anet forums altogether.

I'm speculating that maybe just maybe the OP maybe wanted to stimulate some discussion, some prediction, some analysis of why KLM prefers Boeing narrowbody, etc.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:48 am

For MRO purposes alone it's highly unlikely AF/KL don't operate both the MAX and NEO
 
jfk777
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:59 am

why would they order an A320 when the 737 has been good to them. Air France is the one who has to buy Airbus for political reasons. KLM 's short haul fleet works so the 737 max 8 is the right plane for them.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:03 am

If the trade war heats up it's possible European airlines won't be able to buy Boeing aircraft anymore.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Bjm0517
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:30 am

alan3 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Here, one of these may help:
Image

But until those become available en masse, the answer's the same it was yesterday and the same as it'll be tomorrow:
The airline will order what best suits their needs + is available at the time it's needed + offers the most competitive price.

If that's Airbus someday, they'll get that. If it's not, then they won't.


Well basically the answer to any post could be "well, the airline's gonna do what the airline wants to do". So, we may as well do away with anet forums altogether.

I'm speculating that maybe just maybe the OP maybe wanted to stimulate some discussion, some prediction, some analysis of why KLM prefers Boeing narrowbody, etc.



That was what I was trying to stir up, yeah, but everyone on here had different plans :banghead:
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:41 am

alan3 wrote:
Well basically the answer to any post could be "well, the airline's gonna do what the airline wants to do".

No, the airline's going to do what's in the best interest of its shareholders. That includes acquisitions.

Sure it's not very exciting, but it's the only way to realistically address a (rather ridiculous) question that no one here could possibly give a fact-based answer to.


Bjm0517 wrote:
That was what I was trying to stir up, yeah, but everyone on here had different plans :banghead:

So, if your question actually was "Why does KLM appear prefer Boeing narrobodies?"......
.....then um, why didn't you ask that?


jfk777 wrote:
Air France is the one who has to buy Airbus for political reasons.

Even if that were the case, it doesn't interfere with them selecting whatever they want from the competition. Don't forget that you're talking about an airline who's bought, operated, and/or launched at least one variant of every widebody model that Boeing has ever produced. Even the likes of DL can't say that. ;)
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:42 am

I believe Boeing once made a deal with KLM for the 737, they could acquire it for a very good price. This was back in the days when KLM was looking for a replacement aircraft for the DC-9. They had several options like the MD-80, A320, Fokker 100 and of course the 737. They picked the 737 because of the deal Boeing made with them. That deal still stands, even now that the 737 has evolved. The deal was originally subject to the 737-300 and 400 which KLM ordered to replace the DC-9 but was extended to the 737NG and would even be subject to the 737MAX.

Air France on the other hand has picked Airbus for political reasons. As a French airline, the government pushed them to order French aircraft from Airbus. Maybe the 737 had been better for them, but Airbus needed customers for the A320 so they pushed Air France to order it. KLM never had such political influence, they were able to make their own decisions regardless of what the government thought.
 
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MYT332
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:22 am

LAX772LR wrote:
So, if your question actually was "Why does KLM appear prefer Boeing narrobodies?"......
.....then um, why didn't you ask that?


I honestly doubt he meant that awful English you wrote.

Bjm0517 wrote:
My question is will KLM ever order a Narrow Body airplane from Airbus?


Yes because this question in no way infers that KLM currently has an apparent preference for another manufacturer does it? :butthead:

:rotfl:
One Life, Live it.
 
shankly
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:23 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
.Air France on the other hand has picked Airbus for political reasons. As a French airline, the government pushed them to order French aircraft from Airbus. Maybe the 737 had been better for them, but Airbus needed customers for the A320 so they pushed Air France to order it. KLM never had such political influence, they were able to make their own decisions regardless of what the government thought.


Air France operated a sizeable 737-200, 300 and 500 fleet
L1011 - P F M
 
StTim
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:41 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I believe Boeing once made a deal with KLM for the 737, they could acquire it for a very good price. This was back in the days when KLM was looking for a replacement aircraft for the DC-9. They had several options like the MD-80, A320, Fokker 100 and of course the 737. They picked the 737 because of the deal Boeing made with them. That deal still stands, even now that the 737 has evolved. The deal was originally subject to the 737-300 and 400 which KLM ordered to replace the DC-9 but was extended to the 737NG and would even be subject to the 737MAX.

Air France on the other hand has picked Airbus for political reasons. As a French airline, the government pushed them to order French aircraft from Airbus. Maybe the 737 had been better for them, but Airbus needed customers for the A320 so they pushed Air France to order it. KLM never had such political influence, they were able to make their own decisions regardless of what the government thought.



The casual inference that A320's were only bought by AF because of political interference is crazy. The A320 (and the B737) are fabulous planes and each can do a good job for airlines.
 
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OA940
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:02 pm

Maybe the A200 ;)
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:02 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I believe Boeing once made a deal with KLM for the 737, they could acquire it for a very good price. This was back in the days when KLM was looking for a replacement aircraft for the DC-9. They had several options like the MD-80, A320, Fokker 100 and of course the 737. They picked the 737 because of the deal Boeing made with them. That deal still stands, even now that the 737 has evolved. The deal was originally subject to the 737-300 and 400 which KLM ordered to replace the DC-9 but was extended to the 737NG and would even be subject to the 737MAX.


What kind on contract is that? They have had their first Boeing 737-300 delivered in 1986. Fokker 100 is smaller and the A320 (first delivery 1988) was still in development back then. KLM was quite loyal to Douglas and later McDonnell Douglas, so Boeing probably made KLM quite a good offer to get them to buy the 737's instead of the MD-80's. KLM has also been quite loyal to Boeing, starting with the 747-200's. But KLM did operate Airbus products now and again: A310 (1983-1987) and A330 (2012-.....) and will operate the A350. KLM will operate whatever they think will suit them best.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Air France on the other hand has picked Airbus for political reasons. As a French airline, the government pushed them to order French aircraft from Airbus. Maybe the 737 had been better for them, but Airbus needed customers for the A320 so they pushed Air France to order it. KLM never had such political influence, they were able to make their own decisions regardless of what the government thought.


Why can't Air France just have picked the Airbus because it better suited them? Air France is one of the biggest 777 operators out there, while Airbus had the A340-500/600 on offer. Because of the A320 Boeing reacted and created the 737NG.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LH982
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:58 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I believe Boeing once made a deal with KLM for the 737, they could acquire it for a very good price. This was back in the days when KLM was looking for a replacement aircraft for the DC-9. They had several options like the MD-80, A320, Fokker 100 and of course the 737. They picked the 737 because of the deal Boeing made with them. That deal still stands, even now that the 737 has evolved. The deal was originally subject to the 737-300 and 400 which KLM ordered to replace the DC-9 but was extended to the 737NG and would even be subject to the 737MAX.

Air France on the other hand has picked Airbus for political reasons. As a French airline, the government pushed them to order French aircraft from Airbus. Maybe the 737 had been better for them, but Airbus needed customers for the A320 so they pushed Air France to order it. KLM never had such political influence, they were able to make their own decisions regardless of what the government thought.


I'm amazed by the logic you're using here. KLM needed a replacement for DC9-30s. At the time the A320 wasn't available, and therefore an unknown entity. The FK100 was too small for their needs, so that basically gave them a choice of 733s, MD80s, or 1-11s. Boeing may have given them a great offer, but if they did, it was in an effort to take business from MDD, not Airbus.

EI ordered the 733/734/735. SN did the same, BA eventually did much the same. At next renewal they all switched to A320s. I presume this wasn't due to pressure from the French government.
 
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Bjm0517
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:06 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Well basically the answer to any post could be "well, the airline's gonna do what the airline wants to do".

No, the airline's going to do what's in the best interest of its shareholders. That includes acquisitions.

Sure it's not very exciting, but it's the only way to realistically address a (rather ridiculous) question that no one here could possibly give a fact-based answer to.


Bjm0517 wrote:
That was what I was trying to stir up, yeah, but everyone on here had different plans :banghead:

So, if your question actually was "Why does KLM appear prefer Boeing narrobodies?"......
.....then um, why didn't you ask that?


jfk777 wrote:
Air France is the one who has to buy Airbus for political reasons.

Even if that were the case, it doesn't interfere with them selecting whatever they want from the competition. Don't forget that you're talking about an airline who's bought, operated, and/or launched at least one variant of every widebody model that Boeing has ever produced. Even the likes of DL can't say that. ;)


Quite honestly, I don’t know why I asked that, I was hoping he conversation would stir up itself, but it didn’t.
 
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:39 pm

StTim wrote:
The casual inference that A320's were only bought by AF because of political interference is crazy. The A320 (and the B737) are fabulous planes and each can do a good job for airlines.

Dutchy wrote:
Why can't Air France just have picked the Airbus because it better suited them? Air France is one of the biggest 777 operators out there, while Airbus had the A340-500/600 on offer. Because of the A320 Boeing reacted and created the 737NG.


AF almost certainly got the A320 because of politics. Remember we are talking about 1980s aviation and 1980s Air France here. That is not to say that the plane is bad and ill suited to them however. As the French national carrier their needs were no doubt considered in the A320's design.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:56 pm

Polot wrote:
StTim wrote:
The casual inference that A320's were only bought by AF because of political interference is crazy. The A320 (and the B737) are fabulous planes and each can do a good job for airlines.

Dutchy wrote:
Why can't Air France just have picked the Airbus because it better suited them? Air France is one of the biggest 777 operators out there, while Airbus had the A340-500/600 on offer. Because of the A320 Boeing reacted and created the 737NG.


AF almost certainly got the A320 because of politics. Remember we are talking about 1980s aviation and 1980s Air France here. That is not to say that the plane is bad and ill suited to them however. As the French national carrier their needs were no doubt considered in the A320's design.


So let us than assume that any USA airline buying the 737 is doing it because of pressure of the USA government and any other airline buys the 737 because of being bribed. :sarcastic:

AF a big user of 777, buys hardly air frames because of who produces them.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:01 pm

Polot wrote:
StTim wrote:
The casual inference that A320's were only bought by AF because of political interference is crazy. The A320 (and the B737) are fabulous planes and each can do a good job for airlines.

Dutchy wrote:
Why can't Air France just have picked the Airbus because it better suited them? Air France is one of the biggest 777 operators out there, while Airbus had the A340-500/600 on offer. Because of the A320 Boeing reacted and created the 737NG.


AF almost certainly got the A320 because of politics. Remember we are talking about 1980s aviation and 1980s Air France here. That is not to say that the plane is bad and ill suited to them however. As the French national carrier their needs were no doubt considered in the A320's design.


In the 1980's you are probably right, but now? I don't think so.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:04 pm

The A321neo could be intriguing, primarily flying east on routes on which competitors were able to use smaller planes to drive KLM off the route, such as to Kazakhstan and other locations in central Asia like GYD, TAS, DYE, TSE, and ALA, and maybe even IKA or DXB (I'm thinking about 1-stop options to North America - GYD and TAS both have nonstops to JFK on the 787-8 and Air Astana might want in as well). The A330-200 is too big for those routes and no Boeing in the fleet has the range, and an A321neo could free up a 777 to go elsewhere other than IKA (DXB as well if passenger numbers indicate than a 777 is too much plane). The idea here is that these A321neos would have an international J product and the planes would have less than 195 seats. Also, the idea here might be that cargo could be containerized in an LD3-45 (the 737 can only accept bulk cargo).
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:06 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The A321neo could be intriguing, primarily flying east on routes on which competitors were able to use smaller planes to drive KLM off the route, such as to Kazakhstan and other locations in central Asia like GYD, TAS, DYE, TSE, and ALA, and maybe even IKA or DXB (I'm thinking about 1-stop options to North America - GYD and TAS both have nonstops to JFK on the 787-8 and Air Astana might want in as well). The A330-200 is too big for those routes and no Boeing in the fleet has the range, and an A321neo could free up a 777 to go elsewhere other than IKA (DXB as well if passenger numbers indicate than a 777 is too much plane). The idea here is that these A321neos would have an international J product and the planes would have less than 195 seats.


That might happen, but I think KLM has two major problems:
- Schiphol is slot restricted and will limit the growth of KLM in the near future
- The balance of flights between KLM and Air France: it is a current problem and the pilots of Air France want more of the pie, given the losses the strikes cause, in the end they might get more flights currently flown by KLM.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
lhrnue
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:17 pm

Just put 25% tariffs on aircrafts ... and it is a immediate yes
 
LH982
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:25 pm

Bjm0517 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Well basically the answer to any post could be "well, the airline's gonna do what the airline wants to do".

No, the airline's going to do what's in the best interest of its shareholders. That includes acquisitions.

Sure it's not very exciting, but it's the only way to realistically address a (rather ridiculous) question that no one here could possibly give a fact-based answer to.


Bjm0517 wrote:
That was what I was trying to stir up, yeah, but everyone on here had different plans :banghead:



So, if your question actually was "Why does KLM appear prefer Boeing narrobodies?"......
.....then um, why didn't you ask that?


jfk777 wrote:
Air France is the one who has to buy Airbus for political reasons.

Even if that were the case, it doesn't interfere with them selecting whatever they want from the competition. Don't forget that you're talking about an airline who's bought, operated, and/or launched at least one variant of every widebody model that Boeing has ever produced. Even the likes of DL can't say that. ;)


Quite honestly, I don’t know why I asked that, I was hoping he conversation would stir up itself, but it didn’t.


KLM are as likely to order Airbus as they are Boeing. The decision will be based on needs, pricing and desire or not, to standardise across the group.

KLM were nearly all Douglas until they weren't. They bought A310s with no previous history with Airbus, and then went back to Boeing for 763s. They bought A330s, but were a late convert. They'll do what's best for KLM
 
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Polot
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:27 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
StTim wrote:
The casual inference that A320's were only bought by AF because of political interference is crazy. The A320 (and the B737) are fabulous planes and each can do a good job for airlines.

Dutchy wrote:
Why can't Air France just have picked the Airbus because it better suited them? Air France is one of the biggest 777 operators out there, while Airbus had the A340-500/600 on offer. Because of the A320 Boeing reacted and created the 737NG.


AF almost certainly got the A320 because of politics. Remember we are talking about 1980s aviation and 1980s Air France here. That is not to say that the plane is bad and ill suited to them however. As the French national carrier their needs were no doubt considered in the A320's design.


So let us than assume that any USA airline buying the 737 is doing it because of pressure of the USA government and any other airline buys the 737 because of being bribed. :sarcastic:

AF a big user of 777, buys hardly air frames because of who produces them.

You can sanitize and rewrite history looking through a modern lens all you want. You'd be wrong, but happy in your la la land. Euro carriers were not always private free enterprises free to do whatever they wanted. Politics certainly came into play when it came time for route and fleet decisions. Some of them (even Air France!) also recieved bailouts ( :o the horror! :o ) in times of financial difficulties.

I'm not saying that AF is not making their own decisions now, but in the 1980s? Yeah, those A320s were ordered because of the french government.
 
LH982
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:39 pm

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:


AF almost certainly got the A320 because of politics. Remember we are talking about 1980s aviation and 1980s Air France here. That is not to say that the plane is bad and ill suited to them however. As the French national carrier their needs were no doubt considered in the A320's design.


So let us than assume that any USA airline buying the 737 is doing it because of pressure of the USA government and any other airline buys the 737 because of being bribed. :sarcastic:

AF a big user of 777, buys hardly air frames because of who produces them.

You can sanitize and rewrite history looking through a modern lens all you want. You'd be wrong, but happy in your la la land. Euro carriers were not always private free enterprises free to do whatever they wanted. Politics certainly came into play when it came time for route and fleet decisions. Some of them (even Air France!) also recieved bailouts ( :o the horror! :o ) in times of financial difficulties.

I'm not saying that AF is not making their own decisions now, but in the 1980s? Yeah, those A320s were ordered because of the french government.


AF and LH no doubt had a push from their respective government's. Are we to believe that nothing similar ever happened in the US?

Also BA, SN and EI also went with 733/734/735 series at the same time. At next fleet renewal they went Airbus. Are we speculating that this was local or French government interference?
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:51 pm

Initial -100 series aircraft at AF and B.Cal (they ended up at BA) we’re almost certainly political. But purchase of the A319, the -200 and A321s is hardly coincidence. Remember AF were a 737-200/300/500 operator. Many other airlines have selected the A320 over the M.D.-80 and 737 classic. Clean—sheet Airlines like JetBlue have selected it over the NG and servers Airlines have migrated from NGs to A32x - easyJet being one notable. In the other direction Airlines like silk air have selected the NG/MAX over the NEO. Clearly both airframes are very competitive.

Look at the C-Series. The UA RFQ shows how difficult it is for a manufacturer to win a significant order, based on a superior aircraft for the job. Bombardier bet the farm on the C, and it very nearly lost. It may still.

To answer the OPs question. I would imagine the A321LR is of interest to KLM, if they want to operate long thin routes into the Middle East, USA or Africa. Otherwise the range limitations of the MAX will be irrelevant. KL were one of the few operators of the non -ER 739.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:54 pm

LH982 wrote:
Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

So let us than assume that any USA airline buying the 737 is doing it because of pressure of the USA government and any other airline buys the 737 because of being bribed. :sarcastic:

AF a big user of 777, buys hardly air frames because of who produces them.

You can sanitize and rewrite history looking through a modern lens all you want. You'd be wrong, but happy in your la la land. Euro carriers were not always private free enterprises free to do whatever they wanted. Politics certainly came into play when it came time for route and fleet decisions. Some of them (even Air France!) also recieved bailouts ( :o the horror! :o ) in times of financial difficulties.

I'm not saying that AF is not making their own decisions now, but in the 1980s? Yeah, those A320s were ordered because of the french government.


AF and LH no doubt had a push from their respective government's. Are we to believe that nothing similar ever happened in the US?

Also BA, SN and EI also went with 733/734/735 series at the same time. At next fleet renewal they went Airbus. Are we speculating that this was local or French government interference?

SN was probably politics, BA probably not (weren’t the first BA A320s initially ordered by BCal?). I don’t know about EI.

The fact that 737 or DC-9s (aka American aircraft) were popular worldwide before the A320 is not surprising and you can’t read too much about politics into it. The only real viable European choice was the BAC-111.
 
KL682
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:55 pm

The narrowbody mainline fleets of KLM and Air France are each large enough to justify a split in the orders, with KLM currently operating 50 737 (18-737, 27-738 and 5-739) with 4 more 737-8 (NG) on order (the rumor being the latter 4 might replace some of the 700’s); and AF operating 107 A320 (18=A318, 37-A319, 36-A320 and 16 A321).
These volumes suggest that switching to one type of aircraft, will probably generate some extra discounts on purchase, but will generate a lot of extra costs towards one of the operators (aka AF or KLM) for switching to another platform. These additional costs will be significantly higher than the benefits. For that reason the AFKLM group will probably not push for one platform, like they did with B789 which both airlines operate.
KLM uses the 737 for its European destinations and IST and TLV. Since the oldest 18 or so 737-800/900 are from the 1999-2002 period, the question of replacement is not urgent yet. So replacement will be carefully evaluated, and probably only materialized when the right deal can be made. So AFKLM will talk with both Airbus and Boeing. At the end of the day I think it will be highly unlikely that KLM will NOT replace the bulk of 737’s with a 737MAX.
Since AMS has become (politically) slot restricted recently and is likely to remain so until at least the early 20s, capacity is an issue for KLM. That is why at this moment the 4 737-800 on order are very likely to be a replacement for som of the 737-700s.
KLM is the largest Embrear 170-190 operator in Europe with 33 190’s and 17 170’s. It looks like KLM wants to stick long time with these birds, as they only bought the STD version, with the shortest range. This range is more than sufficient for its current and future network specification. Since they operate the STD version KLM is less interested in residual value versus and is more interested in lower operating costs (due to lower leasing costs/lower cost of acquiring). That is why I find it plausible that in the future the E195-E2 might come into the equation as well, replacing some or most of the 737-700s. Those birds can go to HV (transavia) subsidiary. Depending on the future growth, strategy, cash position and if KLM sticks to Boeing, I foresee a 35-50 order for 737MAX8/MAX9, with the bulk being MAX8. The order will probably also have a long lead time say 2025-2033.
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:06 pm

A lot of different opinions here. Politics will always have an impact when airlines are ordering new aircraft.

Here is the situation: You have to remember that KLM and AF were two separate airlines at the time.

KLM were looking for replacements for their DC-9's. They ordered Fokker 100's (partly a replacement for their own F28's), and decided on the Boeing 737-300/400 for the longer routes.

This was actually the first order KLM ever made from Boeing apart from the B747's.

Why, when being a loyal Douglas customer, did they not order the MD-80's? Who knows, but they "made it up" to Douglas by ordering the MD-11's later on. KLM actually being the only airline that has operated all of the Douglas DC series aircraft.

The BAC 1-11 was never a choice for KLM. The design was already 20 years old when KLM ordered the B737's.

As for the other carriers in Europe. Both AF and BA did indeed have the B737 classics in their fleets, but with Aèrospatiale and British Aerospace, along with MBB and Alenia Aeronautica formed Airbus which is now under EADS. The governments of these airlines' respective countries naturally would urge their airlines to buy Airbus.

This goes all the way back in history. BA had their "Buy British" policy which stated that "unless no other options were available", then they should buy British. Hence the VC-10 and DH Trident. The chairman of BA back in the day took a lot of heat when ordering the B757's, but no other options were available.

KLM will probably stick with their Boeings for now. They seem to be happy with them (it is a great aircraft after all) and until perhaps a complete fleet roll-over takes place in the future, like they did with the DC-9's then why bother to bring in another type to your fleet. Same can be said for AF.
 
Aircellist
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:13 pm

The A320 was conceived as a (more efficient) replacement for the 727, of which AF had a sizable fleet at the time. The 737 was not quite there yet in term of performances (and the 757 was just more plane). Maybe, just maybe, that could have played a role in AF's order…
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:15 pm

Aircellist wrote:
The A320 was conceived as a (more efficient) replacement for the 727, of which AF had a sizable fleet at the time. The 737 was not quite there yet in term of performances (and the 757 was just more plane). Maybe, just maybe, that could have played a role in AF's order…


Of course - but they would have got them regardless due to political factors.
 
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Iemand91
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:30 pm

Politics play a huge rol. For example:

Air France-KLM said it split a mega order for 50 long-haul carriers evenly between Europe's Airbus and U.S. rival Boeing, in a deal worth $11.3 billion (8.1 billion euros).
The giant Franco-Dutch airline is to order 25 Airbus A350-900s and 25 Boeing 787-9 Dreamliners with options to buy another 60 planes to renew its fleet with more fuel-efficient, lightweight models.
(...)
The order has attracted huge attention in France, where some politicians have put pressure on Air France-KLM to buy from Airbus -- which has its major plant in Toulouse, in the south of the country -- rather than from Chicago-based Boeing.
(...)
Political Pressure
Air France-KLM, which is 15.7% owned by the French state, has been under French political pressure to order from Airbus, including a petition signed by 180 MPs.
President Nicolas Sarkozy in June wrote a letter to an MP from his UMP party saying he "was closely following the discussions between Airbus and Air France-KLM on upgrading its long-haul fleet."
Sarkozy wrote: "I am sure that Air France-KLM will of its own accord recognize the qualities of the A350, a plane whose production we have supported with loans."

In a statement, the airline emphasized that its decision was founded on the planes' technical characteristics and performance


Source: http://www.industryweek.com/global-econ ... bus-boeing
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hOMSaR
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:18 pm

The problem with “Will airline X ever order aircraft type Y” type threads is that they are basically phrased as questions with yes/no answers that require some semblance of future-prediction capability.

While there may or may not have been a specific KLM-Airbus narrowbody thread, there have been dozens (if not hundreds) of threads with other airline/aircraft combinations. The basic answer is the same in almost every case (i.e. if the airline management feels it would be best for the company, then yes, else no).

Especially when we’re discussing orders for an aircraft category where the airline already operates a decent-sized fleet, it’s hard for the answer to be different than it is every other time. If it represents an airline going into a size category they don’t currently have (such as a narrowbody carrier adding widebodies, or vice versa, there may be an interesting discussion about the airline’s future market strategy, but if it’s a simple replace 737NG with Max or Neo, how much is there to really discuss?
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
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mig17
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:51 pm

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1383201&hilit=mig17&start=50#p20085031
Like I said there, AF/KL group will buy new aircraft for both AF and KL regarding the narowbody fleet. 3 possible outcome, all Airbus, all Boeing or a split. I think it can be only all Airbus or a split order, but the recent "fusion" of CS serie under Airbus catalog make it more likely AF/KL group will be ordering only Airbus (and CS) to replace A320, 737NG and E-jet for AF, KL, Hop, and both Transavia. Except if Boeing has a better offer to make but it seems unlikely the MAX alone can do that.

At least if they buy anything soon considering the leadership crisis going on.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332 EK/QR, A333 TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:39 pm

Well a lot of investment decisions into aircraft in the 80s and 90s of the last century were politically motivated.

The decision for BA NOT to buy from Airbus initially was politically motivated as UK governments at that time felt closer to the USA. Only when BA inherited A320 from BCal and the advantages of that airliner could no longer be denied BA started buying airbusses themselves.

And of course the decision of KL NOT to buy A320 has been politically motivated as the Dutch were - for all the wrong reasons - upset how EADS then failed to rescue Dutch aircraft builder Fokker.

And yes they are airbusses and not “Airbi”.... as is clear for all who know a little bit of Latin.
 
kevin5345179
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:19 pm

based on the mega order all the carriers under AFKL

At the end of 2018 Air France-KLM will select its medium-haul fleet replacement for Air France, HOP!, KLM and Transavia, operating 120 Boeing 737 NG, 118 Airbus A320ceo family, 64 Embraer E-Jets, 25 Bombardier CRJ700 series and 13 Embraer 145.

Just can't see how the B737 will be on the plate:
1. AFKLM still have ~18% own by French state
2. Partnership from Airbus+Cseries can fulfill all the need in 1 stop and easier to negotiate better price
3. Embraer + Boeing probably won't have agreement on JV until next year due to election
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:00 pm

Totally agree.

On top of that the 737 is simply a much older design imposing limitations.

As a passenger I prefer the additional space in the A320 anytime.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:13 pm

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But the troubles of switching hasn't stopped other airlines. SAS has hardly been the poster boy of fleet commonality, but they have a large 737NG-fleet, larger than KLM. And that hasn't stopped them from replacing them with A320neos.

But it will be interesting to see what KLM does.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:44 pm

kevin5345179 wrote:
based on the mega order all the carriers under AFKL

At the end of 2018 Air France-KLM will select its medium-haul fleet replacement for Air France, HOP!, KLM and Transavia, operating 120 Boeing 737 NG, 118 Airbus A320ceo family, 64 Embraer E-Jets, 25 Bombardier CRJ700 series and 13 Embraer 145.

Just can't see how the B737 will be on the plate:
1. AFKLM still have ~18% own by French state
2. Partnership from Airbus+Cseries can fulfill all the need in 1 stop and easier to negotiate better price
3. Embraer + Boeing probably won't have agreement on JV until next year due to election


They will stick to B737
KL doesnt want to retrain their pilots to do the exact same flights besides being happy with the B737
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:52 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
StTim wrote:
The casual inference that A320's were only bought by AF because of political interference is crazy. The A320 (and the B737) are fabulous planes and each can do a good job for airlines.

Dutchy wrote:
Why can't Air France just have picked the Airbus because it better suited them? Air France is one of the biggest 777 operators out there, while Airbus had the A340-500/600 on offer. Because of the A320 Boeing reacted and created the 737NG.


AF almost certainly got the A320 because of politics. Remember we are talking about 1980s aviation and 1980s Air France here. That is not to say that the plane is bad and ill suited to them however. As the French national carrier their needs were no doubt considered in the A320's design.


So let us than assume that any USA airline buying the 737 is doing it because of pressure of the USA government and any other airline buys the 737 because of being bribed. :sarcastic:

AF a big user of 777, buys hardly air frames because of who produces them.


The French government has about a 17% ownership stake in Air France. Back in the 1980s Air Inter and Air France were at least partially publicly owned companies. There is a reason why Air Inter operated the A300, Dassault Mercure and A320-100. The French government being part owner certainly has the ability to influence purchasing decisions.

The same is not true in the United States. The US government does not have any ownership stake in any airline although some do contract work for the US government. As a government contractor there is some influence, but I seriously doubt it influences purchasing decisions anywhere near as much as the French government does
 
Jerry123
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:48 pm

American 767 wrote:
Jerry123 wrote:
They seem happy with the 737 so i don't see why they would change or need to change to Airbus.


Me neither I don't see why, other than the fact that Air France has a lot of Airbus narrowbodies in its fleet. Likewise one would ask: "Why didn't Air France order NG737s?" The only reason I see why Air France would buy NG 737s is KLM and Transavia have those.

I can see KLM ordering the MAX eventually. What will be interesting is which variants as they operate a fair few 700s and 5 or 6 900s and with Schipol getting more slot restricted i'm wondering if they'll replace the 700s with MAX 8s and the 900s with MAX 10s. With Air France i think politically they probably have to have a large Airbus fleet and it makes sense to make that the short haul side. Will be interesting to see if they order the C Series now it's effectively an Airbus jet.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:12 pm

Owning part of the airline doesn't mean much, and indeed AF has ordered plenty of Boeing aircraft.

Political influence can happen without any government ownership. For example I'm pretty sure no US airline will make a mega Airbus order as long as Trump is president.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Jerry123
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:27 pm

kevin5345179 wrote:
based on the mega order all the carriers under AFKL

At the end of 2018 Air France-KLM will select its medium-haul fleet replacement for Air France, HOP!, KLM and Transavia, operating 120 Boeing 737 NG, 118 Airbus A320ceo family, 64 Embraer E-Jets, 25 Bombardier CRJ700 series and 13 Embraer 145.

Just can't see how the B737 will be on the plate:
1. AFKLM still have ~18% own by French state
2. Partnership from Airbus+Cseries can fulfill all the need in 1 stop and easier to negotiate better price
3. Embraer + Boeing probably won't have agreement on JV until next year due to election

Air France/KLM isn't like IAG, KLM are far more independent minded and will base it's order on what it wants not what the French government wants. It has an excellent relationship with Boeing and Embraer and doesn't need them to have a JV. I'd be very surprised if they didn't order the MAX and will be interested in seeing which variants they order.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:57 pm

Again I repeat but I don't believe it's political pressure. Air France is France's flag carrier, and that's literal, with the name of the country also in the name of the airline. Air France main clients are French people. It can't really afford to boycott French made aircraft. Which doesn't mean it can't buy something else, but it clearly can't have an all Boeing fleet.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:20 am

Aesma wrote:
Again I repeat but I don't believe it's political pressure. Air France is France's flag carrier, and that's literal, with the name of the country also in the name of the airline. Air France main clients are French people. It can't really afford to boycott French made aircraft. Which doesn't mean it can't buy something else, but it clearly can't have an all Boeing fleet.


So we can interfere that USA airlines buying mainly USA frames, do it because of patriotic reasons or government pressure?

Air France having bought and used the 707, 727, 737, 747, 767, 777, 787 is a company buying French airplanes because they are the French flag carrier? What is about all the Boeing frames they bought?

Yes they bought the A340-300, but not the A340-600. After the A340-300 they bought 777-200ER and later 777-300ER. One should also think about that the A340-300 was available before the 777.
Regarding the A330, what competition was there when they bought the A330?

There is one simple reason Air France bought and uses the A320 family frames, they decided that they were the best fit when they bought them.

If somebody still declares Air France bought the A320 because of anything else, please bring proof.

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