SY flight from MSP - LAS forgets the luggage!

MSPSXMFLIER · Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:06 pm

Wow, some SY folks are going to be looking for work after this screw up, I would imagine?

http://kstp.com/business/sun-country-ai ... 309/?cat=1

EvanWSFO · Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:17 pm

The race to the bottom is getting crowded.

rj777 · Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:50 pm

How the heck does this happen?

usflyer msp · Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:54 pm

The staff at Global Aviation, the company that does SY's ground handling, have been far from impressive thus far. They pay less than the airport McDonalds so no one should be shocked by the low quality staff they are attracting.

Utah744 · Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:56 pm

What about the weight & balance? Surely the pilots got it via paper or electronically. Either way they should have seen ZERO for baggage. Now if someone put in a weight that they THOUGHT was loaded that is also a safety of flight violation. Yes, someone is going to be in trouble. Better hope this is their first mistake.

Tucker1 · Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:02 am

My experiences with sun country have always been good. But in the last few months things have been tough for them. I might be late to the party but did they just get a different owner or ceo?

MSPSXMFLIER · Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:05 am

Tucker1 wrote:
My experiences with sun country have always been good. But in the last few months things have been tough for them. I might be late to the party but did they just get a different owner or ceo?

They got both. Apollo Global Management bought the company from the Davis family, with the sale closing earlier this year. CEO Jude Bricker came on board last summer/fall. He previously worked for Allegiant, in the same capacity, I believe.

usflyer msp · Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:07 am

Tucker1 wrote:
I might be late to the party but did they just get a different owner or ceo?

Both

Also outsourced all ground handling...

rosecityspotter · Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:33 am

Just baffles me that they would forget luggage like this...

sunking737 · Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:41 am

And the future grows dimmer and dimmer at SUN country

Newbiepilot · Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:42 am

Utah744 wrote:
What about the weight & balance? Surely the pilots got it via paper or electronically. Either way they should have seen ZERO for baggage. Now if someone put in a weight that they THOUGHT was loaded that is also a safety of flight violation. Yes, someone is going to be in trouble. Better hope this is their first mistake.

The second option of putting the weight in but forgetting to load he bags sounds more probably. That is a safety issue. I can’t imagine the pilots not noticing that there was zero cargo or baggage for weight and balance.

MIflyer12 · Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:55 am

I was on a NW DC-10 on a domestic segment out of BOS. Taxied to runway. Engines throttled up - then cut abruptly. 'Ah, we need to go back for eight containers of luggage we didn't load.'

There's lots of competition, even at the bottom. Being ULCC has little to do with it.

Ziyulu · Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:09 am

Maybe they forgot to pay the baggage fees!

dashdrvr · Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:23 am

In all seriousness the critical question. Were the bags on the weight and balance but not loaded? If that is the case that is a huge safety issue. If the 0 bags were accounted on the weight and balance it is just a PR issue. Years a go in the F28 rampers loaded 4,000 lbs front to back as opposed to back to front. Weight and balance indicated back to front(back compartment is aft of PAX compartment). Didn't know there was issue until rotation. Running out runway was forced to fly. Thank goodness for solid forgiving Foker aircraft

N626AA · Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:29 am

Think the aircraft reached take off speed and lifted off the ground a little earlier than what the pilots were expecting?

kiowa · Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:30 am

N626AA wrote:
Think the aircraft reached take off speed and lifted off the ground a little earlier than what the pilots were expecting?

Probably, but the CG and trim were certainly incorrect and could easily have lead to an accident.

stl07 · Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:17 am

This makes WW's record look good!

910A · Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:36 am

Back in 1985, I experience the same on a United flight from SEA to SFO right after the strike, no luggage was loaded. Seems all the luggage was loaded on a SEA-SMF-SFO flight. What was worst the UA rep in SFO had the nerve to tell all the passengers that no one checked baggage.

MSPSXMFLIER · Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:53 am

sunking737 wrote:
And the future grows dimmer and dimmer at SUN country

This whole rebranding and repainting effort that SY has announced is a waste. I don’t see them being around come the end of 2020. It’s either bankruptcy and selling off assets or being purchased and merging with another airline.

ACDC8 · Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:58 am

Took a flight from JHL to YLW a few years back. Plane beside us was going to YEG. We get to YLW when we were informed that all our luggage was in YEG and our plane had all the YEG pax luggage. Oops lmao lol.

PlanesNTrains · Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:29 am

kiowa wrote:
N626AA wrote:
Think the aircraft reached take off speed and lifted off the ground a little earlier than what the pilots were expecting?

Probably, but the CG and trim were certainly incorrect and could easily have lead to an accident.

Assuming they input incorrect numbers, which they may very well have done.

MSPNWA · Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:49 am

Hard to believe in the technology age that this could happen. Like others I'm really curious about the performance aspect if the flight. If the W&B for bags was loaded, that's not good. Thankfully it was the direction of less weight, not more.

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
They got both. Apollo Global Management bought the company from the Davis family, with the sale closing earlier this year. CEO Jude Bricker came on board last summer/fall. He previously worked for Allegiant, in the same capacity, I believe.

Bricker was COO at G4.

sunking737 wrote:
And the future grows dimmer and dimmer at SUN country

Crazy one-offs like this won't change anything. The future hasn't been this bright at SY in, well, maybe forever.

tozairport · Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:58 am

It's simple.... You get what you pay for. People have no problem paying $5 for a Latte at Starbucks, but cry so hard about airfares. If you want to go cheap, then expect 7-11 coffee.

wetpantsmcgee · Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:44 am

As a former ramper for 10+ years, I am curious to know the whole story. With a load of 168 pax, there's no way the flight crew would taxi out knowing there's zero bags loaded. Now if they were given the load as planned and then nothing was loaded, that's a serious safety issue. However, in both situations, how is it that none of the bags reached the cargo compartments?

STLflyer · Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:52 am

How unsafe was this? Obviously, if cargo that the pilots weren't expecting was loaded, it could have turned out very, very bad. But what's the worst that could happen if a plane is lighter than the pilots are expecting?

FlyHappy · Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:55 am

tozairport wrote:
It's simple.... You get what you pay for. People have no problem paying $5 for a Latte at Starbucks, but cry so hard about airfares. If you want to go cheap, then expect 7-11 coffee.

That's oversimplifying airline ops.
You can do low-fare well or do it poorly. For that matter, you can "high fare" poorly , as well.
SY has been pretty low cost for quite a long time, but have really only recently been apparently poorly run since..... well, new management, ownership, outsourcing.... and those things really did not occur simultaneously.

32andBelow · Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:31 am

kiowa wrote:
N626AA wrote:
Think the aircraft reached take off speed and lifted off the ground a little earlier than what the pilots were expecting?

Probably, but the CG and trim were certainly incorrect and could easily have lead to an accident.

It can’t easily lead to an accident. The aircraft was just a little less than they thought. I’m sure they were still well within CG with passengers throughout the plane.

ltbewr · Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:05 am

Maybe it was to reduce fuel burn :lol:

This could be a serious hassle for some passengers as may have medicines, had clothing needed for a wedding or other event was in checked luggage. Now one more reason for more to lug on oversized and overstuffed carry-ons.

smokeybandit · Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:08 am

Was it truly forgotten? Or placed on the wrong flight?

klm617 · Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:50 am

Does anyone not see these low wage employee's as a security risk ?

klm617 · Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:52 am

tozairport wrote:
It's simple.... You get what you pay for. People have no problem paying $5 for a Latte at Starbucks, but cry so hard about airfares. If you want to go cheap, then expect 7-11 coffee.

No if you are running an airline hire qualified people and do the proper training and don't do everything on the cheap.

PlanesNTrains · Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:44 pm

klm617 wrote:
Does anyone not see these low wage employee's as a security risk ?

Yes, your heinous, because higher paid people never make mistakes.

msycajun · Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:00 pm

It is really sad how far downhill SY has gone since the sale to the management company. The model of profit above all else doesn't work in airlines, when you have a reputation to uphold and depend on people booking months in advance. I think the best we can hope for is for AS/NK/WN/B6 to buy them out.

stlgph · Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:20 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Does anyone not see these low wage employee's as a security risk ?

Yes, your heinous, because higher paid people never make mistakes.

Not entirely the point. Front of the line employees are the ones on the lines of operations with exposure to many aspects of the business, security being one, and customer service, being the most important one. I would put "security risk" pretty low on the scale here, but "branding risk" ... probably pretty high.

It will be interesting to see/compare complaints with the DOT on such matters year over year as this whole change with Sun Country moves forward.

usflyer msp · Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:49 pm

stlgph wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Does anyone not see these low wage employee's as a security risk ?

Yes, your heinous, because higher paid people never make mistakes.

Not entirely the point. Front of the line employees are the ones on the lines of operations with exposure to many aspects of the business, security being one, and customer service, being the most important one. I would put "security risk" pretty low on the scale here, but "branding risk" ... probably pretty high.

It will be interesting to see/compare complaints with the DOT on such matters year over year as this whole change with Sun Country moves forward.

To be fair, Sun Country's below wing ground handling has always been outsourced. Their latest vendor however seems to have a lot of issues because of their very low pay scale - they are hitting the bottom of the badgeable labor pool and are still unable to fill front-line positions. Additionally, many of their supervisory/training/professional/safety positions are unfilled because no one is interested in such a low salary. This lack of training and oversight is precisely how mistakes like forgetting to load the baggage onto the aircraft are made.

admanager · Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:14 pm

msycajun wrote:
It is really sad how far downhill SY has gone since the sale to the management company. The model of profit above all else doesn't work in airlines, when you have a reputation to uphold and depend on people booking months in advance. I think the best we can hope for is for AS/NK/WN/B6 to buy them out.

Previous threads indicate most (if not all) of the fleet is leased, so if that is correct there is essentially nothing to buy.
viewtopic.php?t=1345865

deebee278 · Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:21 pm

dashdrvr wrote:
In all seriousness the critical question. Were the bags on the weight and balance but not loaded? If that is the case that is a huge safety issue. If the 0 bags were accounted on the weight and balance it is just a PR issue. Years a go in the F28 rampers loaded 4,000 lbs front to back as opposed to back to front. Weight and balance indicated back to front(back compartment is aft of PAX compartment). Didn't know there was issue until rotation. Running out runway was forced to fly. Thank goodness for solid forgiving Foker aircraft

As a Pilot, I'd rather have less weight than planned than more. I recall an incident of an aircraft taking off from Burbank CA some years ago where the plane was loaded a couple thousand pounds over plan. (can't find anything on it when googling). That takeoff had to be 'interesting', what with the relatively short runways. Fokkers weren't forgiving. They had what's called a 'hard wing', no leading edge slats. That was a factor when flying in icing conditions.

msycajun · Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:51 pm

admanager wrote:
msycajun wrote:
It is really sad how far downhill SY has gone since the sale to the management company. The model of profit above all else doesn't work in airlines, when you have a reputation to uphold and depend on people booking months in advance. I think the best we can hope for is for AS/NK/WN/B6 to buy them out.

Previous threads indicate most (if not all) of the fleet is leased, so if that is correct there is essentially nothing to buy.
viewtopic.php?t=1345865

There may not be much in the way of physical assets, but the same was said about VX and yet AS paid 4 billion for them. I'm sure the immediate scale in a major business market is worth something (see AS in SFO, WN getting ATL presence through FL). Also elimination of a competitor could help WN or NK to grow in MSP. B6 clearly felt a need to expand their network and felt that they had money to spend on it, so could be valuable to them. Access to a pool of 737 pilots could also be valuable for AS or WN. Or maybe Indigo/F9 buys them and replaces the 737s with the 320s they have on order.

CATIIIevery5yrs · Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:54 pm

1: It’s totally possible for a flight crew not to know how many/much bags/cargo are or aren’t on the airplane. We don’t go down and check. Even if we did, how long would it take to count and check all of it? How would it be addressed in a CBA? That’s why there’s FAA approved W+B programs. The FAA has used their regulatory oversight to make sure the pilots can trust the paperwork handed to them.

2: It’s much better to have planned for heavier weights and take off a lot lighter. The Sun Country takeoff had an abundance of performance. Obviously going the other way could be catastrophic.

seatrump · Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:15 pm

Guys, weights on airplanes are all guesses anyway. Summer weights for pax are 190lbs which includes any carryons they have. How accurate do you think that is... Now, with 150 pax, 3,000lbs of bags were probably forgotten. Even if these numbers were input and then not loaded, it's going to represent less than 3% off the weight of the airplane. I doubt the closest we ever get is within about 5% and given the weight of the average passenger and bags is well north of 190lbs, if anything, saying the bags were loaded and not loading them probably made the true weight closer to the calculated weight.

As far as C.G. goes, those bags are all loaded close to the c.g. anyway in either the forward or aft underbelly cargo compartment so the effect on C.G., also negligible. I would be stunned if the pilots noticed anything....

einsteinboricua · Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:25 pm

msycajun wrote:
There may not be much in the way of physical assets, but the same was said about VX and yet AS paid 4 billion for them. I'm sure the immediate scale in a major business market is worth something (see AS in SFO, WN getting ATL presence through FL). Also elimination of a competitor could help WN or NK to grow in MSP. B6 clearly felt a need to expand their network and felt that they had money to spend on it, so could be valuable to them. Access to a pool of 737 pilots could also be valuable for AS or WN. Or maybe Indigo/F9 buys them and replaces the 737s with the 320s they have on order.

1. NK and WN have a bigger presence in MSP than B6; both NK and WN stand to benefit if SY collapses.
2. In terms of mergers/buyouts, WN would have the bigger benefit since SY's pilots are 737 pilots. For NK or B6 to buy the airline and dispose of the 737s or retrain the pilots (if they decide to keep the employees) means spending more.
3. AS at this point is busy with the VX merger and defending its turf from DL. I don't think AS needs to expand on yet another DL hub and takeover routes that don't mesh with AS and for which DL can easily compete in.
4. Indigo/F9 stand to gain little from a northern hub. What F9 stands to benefit from is an eastern hub. A NK/F9 merger would truly be a ULCC to reckon with. Also, see point 2.

sunking737 · Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:59 am

Don't take long for people to start talking SY as a merger partner. SY brings no value to any airline. They have been through two Chap. 11 and how many owners. I think 7 so far but I may be off by one or two. The original founders have owned the company twice. in 1983 and again in 2002. A banker, and travel agency, Petters/White Box, run by an BK administrator, a dairy farmer, and now an investment group not located in MSP. Founded in 1982 after Braniff collapsed, First flight 1983. still going today. against all odds.

F27500 · Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:36 am

Classy operation.

Just like when they abandoned an entire plane load of pax in Mexico at the end of winter after a supposed wx cancellation … but then justified telling these pax to find their own way home "because it was a seasonal service that had ended for the year" and they had no plane to send down for them.

This is another trashy carrier that should just disappear.

millionsofmiles · Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:02 am

I wonder how many original Braniff pilots and flight attendants remain. Any remaining Braniff pilots would have had to be 30 or under in order to still be flying.

sunking737 · Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:39 pm

millionsofmiles wrote:
I wonder how many original Braniff pilots and flight attendants remain. Any remaining Braniff pilots would have had to be 30 or under in order to still be flying.

I think they all have retired by now. Still a hand full of regular employees, non flight crew, but not many.

MSPSXMFLIER · Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:49 pm

sunking737 wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
I wonder how many original Braniff pilots and flight attendants remain. Any remaining Braniff pilots would have had to be 30 or under in order to still be flying.

I think they all have retired by now. Still a hand full of regular employees, non flight crew, but not many.

There is one flight attendant still with SY, who has been with the company since day one. I had the chance to spend some time and talk with her on my recent SY flight, back in May. She was a former Braniff flight attendant. A neighbor who previously lived in the house next door to where I grew up was also a Braniff flight attendant and she joined SY at the same time, but retired about a decade ago. The attendant on my flight was such a friendly and very pleasant person to chat with. She has been flying for 46 years now. She loves her work, enjoys flying with SY and their more leisurely pace and is keeping an eye on the changes at the airline. She minced no words about her feelings for the CEO, the outsourcing of many ground staff personnel and what she thinks the new owners will ultimately do. She’s 66 (you wouldn’t know it) and would like to fly another 4 years, retiring on her 50th anniversary in the business.

strfyr51 · Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:04 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
1: It’s totally possible for a flight crew not to know how many/much bags/cargo are or aren’t on the airplane. We don’t go down and check. Even if we did, how long would it take to count and check all of it? How would it be addressed in a CBA? That’s why there’s FAA approved W+B programs. The FAA has used their regulatory oversight to make sure the pilots can trust the paperwork handed to them.

2: It’s much better to have planned for heavier weights and take off a lot lighter. The Sun Country takeoff had an abundance of performance. Obviously going the other way could be catastrophic.

I understand the lack of Weight.. HOWEVER The Weight and Balance is an FAA Mandated document.
So?? The Pilots Had to have reviewed it prior to departure to set theirTakeoff Trim settings.
Was the weight and balance document falsified??

FlyingElvii · Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:11 am

910A wrote:
Back in 1985, I experience the same on a United flight from SEA to SFO right after the strike, no luggage was loaded. Seems all the luggage was loaded on a SEA-SMF-SFO flight. What was worst the UA rep in SFO had the nerve to tell all the passengers that no one checked baggage.

A remember more than one of these, usually due to a work action.

I worked a couple of Airways trips with no bags, as well as a Pan Am.

FlyingElvii · Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:16 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
1: It’s totally possible for a flight crew not to know how many/much bags/cargo are or aren’t on the airplane. We don’t go down and check. Even if we did, how long would it take to count and check all of it? How would it be addressed in a CBA? That’s why there’s FAA approved W+B programs. The FAA has used their regulatory oversight to make sure the pilots can trust the paperwork handed to them.

2: It’s much better to have planned for heavier weights and take off a lot lighter. The Sun Country takeoff had an abundance of performance. Obviously going the other way could be catastrophic.

we don’t know what happened. A belt malfunction? A TSA screwup? (Common).

The crew nearing drop dead time if they don’t launch RIGHT NOW?

Any number of things could have happened. It isn’t common, but it is not unheard of, either.

CATIIIevery5yrs · Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:17 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
1: It’s totally possible for a flight crew not to know how many/much bags/cargo are or aren’t on the airplane. We don’t go down and check. Even if we did, how long would it take to count and check all of it? How would it be addressed in a CBA? That’s why there’s FAA approved W+B programs. The FAA has used their regulatory oversight to make sure the pilots can trust the paperwork handed to them.

2: It’s much better to have planned for heavier weights and take off a lot lighter. The Sun Country takeoff had an abundance of performance. Obviously going the other way could be catastrophic.

I understand the lack of Weight.. HOWEVER The Weight and Balance is an FAA Mandated document.
So?? The Pilots Had to have reviewed it prior to departure to set theirTakeoff Trim settings.
Was the weight and balance document falsified??

I’m sure they 100% did a legit weight and balance. I don’t think you understand how it works. Ground crew fills out loadsheet totaling all the bags and cargo they -planned- on loading. Ground crew hands load sheet to pilots. Pilots run their weight and balance from the loadsheet. Ground crew then somehow forgets to load bags. Pilots unaware because FAA approved procedure doesn’t require pilots out there counting bags and cargo. Pretty simple.

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