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Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:58 pm
by boxeebox
Earlier today, the CEO of JetBlue mentioned that Airbus was floating the idea of an XLR (Extra Long Range) model of the A321. Has anyone else heard of this? I can't seem to find anything on it.

-Box

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:22 pm
by Arion640
While i'm not an engineer, I'd guess there's only a certain amount you can do to an airframe before a clean sheet design is needed.

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:40 pm
by shamrock137
boxeebox wrote:
Earlier today, the CEO of JetBlue mentioned that Airbus was floating the idea of an XLR (Extra Long Range) model of the A321.


Do you have a source?

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:40 pm
by Stitch
Any increases in range would require additional ACTs and Leeham.net believes you may have to hand-load the LR if you use three ACTs due to lack of hold space for sufficient ULDs.

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:46 pm
by boxeebox
shamrock137 wrote:
boxeebox wrote:
Earlier today, the CEO of JetBlue mentioned that Airbus was floating the idea of an XLR (Extra Long Range) model of the A321.


Do you have a source?


I heard it from the CEO today at a company forum.

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:30 am
by Newbiepilot
I wonder what XLR would mean. Airbus redefined what LR meant with the A321LR only being a 7,000lbs MTOW increase over the A321neo. For reference the 737-900ER was a 13,000lbs MTOW increase over the 737-900. The 777-200LR was a 221,000lbs MTOW increase over the 777-200.

How much more weight are they offering? I don’t think a few extra pounds would justify calling it an XLR. Airplanes usually have a variety of MTOWs

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:45 am
by Lufthansa
It depends if they want to increase the wing or not? If they go down that path, while more expensive, would also allow for an A322 stretch, which might be just enough to cause Boeing some headaches with their MoM proposal. Think of the thing basically as a modern DC-8.

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:43 am
by B6JFKH81
boxeebox wrote:
shamrock137 wrote:
boxeebox wrote:
Earlier today, the CEO of JetBlue mentioned that Airbus was floating the idea of an XLR (Extra Long Range) model of the A321.


Do you have a source?


I heard it from the CEO today at a company forum.


Soooooo.....you took internal information and made it public? Someone didn't read the Blue Book or Social Media/Forum policy....

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:53 am
by TheRedBaron
For a proper A322 or 321XLR a new wing is needed, with additional space for fuel on it and a huge door for faster pax disembarking ....

TRB

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:10 am
by madpropsyo
If the make it they should name it the A321COBO for "Carry On Bags Only," since it will need the entire belly to be full of fuel tanks.

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:40 am
by c933103
Didn't Airbus said that they will have to shrink the queue fir planes first before considering any new variants?

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:18 am
by brindabella
c933103 wrote:
Didn't Airbus said that they will have to shrink the queue fir planes first before considering any new variants?


:checkmark:


(Specifically shrink the A320neo family delivery queue).


cheers

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:56 am
by LAX772LR
B6JFKH81 wrote:
boxeebox wrote:
I heard it from the CEO today at a company forum.

Soooooo.....you took internal information and made it public? Someone didn't read the Blue Book or Social Media/Forum policy....

Soooooo, is this like your first time on an AvGeek forum or something? That happens all the time.

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:38 am
by A380MSN004
Would be interesting to know what range is XLR?
A 4th ACT would be doable on the existent A321LR but with the bulk load heavily loaded and some restriction on High dimension luggages = lot of headackes and bags restrictions on operations just to get an extra 400-500nm extra range from the LR range

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:43 am
by parapente
Sorry I don't feel the source of this rather large statement is good enough to warrant a debate.If it's true no doubt we will hear all about it at Farnbrough.Otherwise it could simply be made up to provoke 'another' thread.Of course that puts the site'hits' up and 'viewing stats' up which in turn allows this commercial web company to charge more for its advertising space....

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:29 am
by c933103
A380MSN004 wrote:
Would be interesting to know what range is XLR?
A 4th ACT would be doable on the existent A321LR but with the bulk load heavily loaded and some restriction on High dimension luggages = lot of headackes and bags restrictions on operations just to get an extra 400-500nm extra range from the LR range

If it have a larger wing then it would have both more efficiency and more fuel capacity available that can fly further.

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:06 pm
by boxeebox
LAX772LR wrote:
B6JFKH81 wrote:
boxeebox wrote:
I heard it from the CEO today at a company forum.

Soooooo.....you took internal information and made it public? Someone didn't read the Blue Book or Social Media/Forum policy....

Soooooo, is this like your first time on an AvGeek forum or something? That happens all the time.


In all fairness, I gave this a lot of thought before posting but decided it was nothing detrimental towards Jetblue nor were plans leaked. It was more about Airbus possibly proposing a variant of the A321. I would never harm not jeopardize the company I love. Why do you have to be the negative nuisance no one likes? If I leaked real substantial information then sue me. Back to studying your Bluebook and being a Debbie Downer.

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:28 pm
by WaywardMemphian
Sounds like the AB answer to the Boeing MOM being floated. It'll only happen if the MOM happens.

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:26 pm
by keesje
[quote][/quote]I think most agree the A321 wing is pretty much maxed out on the A321LR.

Adding further ACT's would limit belly capacity and payload/ seatcount. Maybe if 160 seats in 3 classes is enough..

A bigger wing would open up new territory in capacity, range, or both.

Image

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:32 pm
by Devilfish
boxeebox wrote:
Earlier today, the CEO of JetBlue mentioned that Airbus was floating the idea of an XLR (Extra Long Range) model of the A321. Has anyone else heard of this? I can't seem to find anything on it.

Asked a similar question (post#30) two years ago, but for MNL-AKL.....

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=604749&p=9621625


hOMSaR wrote:
I predict an image of a plane with a fly on it very shortly in this thread.

Lo and behold :!: ..... :eyepopping: .....

Image
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z... ... tch757.jpg


NYPECO wrote:
Why do those images always have a fly on them?

bgm wrote:
Just use some bug spray on your screen and it should go away.

I dunno...it's a particularly hardy strain...resistant to sundry insecticides. ;)


P.S. The fly seems bashful this morning and doesn't want to show its picture. :ashamed: :duck:

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:46 pm
by keesje
boxeebox wrote:
Earlier today, the CEO of JetBlue mentioned that Airbus was floating the idea of an XLR (Extra Long Range) model of the A321. Has anyone else heard of this? I can't seem to find anything on it.

-Box


This CEO better first checks with Newbiepilot and Revelation, any Airbus NEO Plus or Plus-Plus is shelved. Management shake ups, hurt feelings, huge production issues, senior a.net members, don't underestimate this. Facts are stubborn things. :wave:

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1391201&start=250

Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:47 pm
by M564038
So, the Airbus A320 X-series with Latch and Rubber? Are they using it for balancing or stereo?

Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:14 pm
by xwb777
Airbus has made it clear that they are considering bumping up the range of its most powerful version of the A321 and call it an A321XLR.

The new 'A321XLR' will be un upgraded version of thr A321LR that will be equipped with extra capacity and range and will be targeted for the American carriers as they are looking forward for the Boeing MOM. The new aircraft would have a longer fuselage, wing improvements and extra fuel capacity.



Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN1JE0ZE

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:21 pm
by FatCat
So basically a narrowbody 330-200, right?

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:23 pm
by A60Stock
Probably more like a narrow body A310-300.

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:31 pm
by musman9853
I thought they shelved the study b/c it wasn't viable?

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:42 pm
by osupoke07
Isn't this essentially the 321+ or 321 ++?

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:45 pm
by Strato2
How can it be called A321anything if the fuselage is longer.

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:46 pm
by boerje
xwb777 wrote:
Airbus has made it clear that they are considering bumping up the range of its most powerful version of the A321 and call it an A321XLR.

The new 'A321XLR' will be un upgraded version of thr A321LR that will be equipped with extra capacity and range and will be targeted for the American carriers as they are looking forward for the Boeing MOM. The new aircraft would have a longer fuselage, wing improvements and extra fuel capacity.



Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN1JE0ZE


The A321XLR - with more fuel capacity but no extra seats or aerodynamic redesign - is a compromise bet that Airbus hopes will fend off Boeing for the smallest upfront investment.


So an A321XLR would be similar to A321LR in number of seats and any enhancements would be used for fuel capacity giving more range.

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:48 pm
by parapente
I don't think the article says what you say.It makes clear what the plus and plus plus were.This (if it comes into existence) is a simpler shorter lead time route from the sounds of it.They have not released the official results of their testing but teased some pretty impressive distances achieved perhaps hinting that there might be more range to come.
As for more furl -sure but where might one put it ? A 'wet' central box section? Dunno really.
More fuel equals more weight.The ingle bogey MLG is at 97 tons I guess they can strengthen it to 100 perhaps - who knows?
More weight equals. worse t/o performance.Perhaps they can extract a little more? Faster t/o and landing speeds perhaps?
Oh and they probably need a smidge more power too!
If they can they will - why not ,but the A321LR is fairly close to max I would have thought.Mind you if they can find an extra 200 nm it would open up many additional TATL routes as a 200 seat 2 class aircraft which no doubt would be appealing to some.
Then there is the 5-10 year existing backlog to deal with!!

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:52 pm
by FatCat
The whole discussion around the "new MoM" amazes me.
I mean, Boeing had the perfect plane - 757 - and discontinued it.
Now it seems that all the Carriers are looking for a new 757 but neither Boeing nor Airbus can build such a plane.
But opening the drawer, taking out the blueprints from 1983 and putting the 757 back in production with new carbon fiber wings and body and new fuel efficient engines is so absurd? Will not a move like this save millions of US$ and leave Airbus picking up the crumbs from the floor?
It's a sincere question - although surely already answered before

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:53 pm
by william
Smart move, but I thought Airbus stated it has this "small" market covered with the A321 on the bottom and A330 on top?

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:54 pm
by ZaphodHarkonnen
FatCat wrote:
The whole discussion around the "new MoM" amazes me.
I mean, Boeing had the perfect plane - 757 - and discontinued it.
Now it seems that all the Carriers are looking for a new 757 but neither Boeing nor Airbus can build such a plane.
But opening the drawer, taking out the blueprints from 1983 and putting the 757 back in production with new carbon fiber wings and body and new fuel efficient engines is so absurd? Will not a move like this save millions of US$ and leave Airbus picking up the crumbs from the floor?
It's a sincere question - although surely already answered before


Yes, answered before. From memory it boils down to all those little changes like engines, wings, avionics, etc. would basically be the cost of a new airframe. And with all the tooling for the 757 long gone you'd have to rebuild the construction line from scratch. Including all the suppliers with their own subasemblies.

So why go through all the effort of rebuilding an old plane when for a little bit more you can just do a cleansheet.

Anyways, as for the OP I am sure Airbus are continually running ideas on a Boeing MoM response. Even if it's only a handful of engineers at any one time.

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:05 pm
by AleksW
Sounds like the A321 NEO LR with the fourth fuel tank :)

Their marketing team perhaps should call it A321 NEO TANKER. :airplane:

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:11 pm
by Newbiepilot
From reading the article, this just sounds like another MTOW increase for the A321.

Airbus redefined what the suffix LR meant with the A321LR. All the LR represents is a 7,000lbs MTOW increase (3.5%). The ER on 737-900ER was an MTOW increase of 13,000lbs (7.8%). The LR on on the 777LR represents a 230,000lbs payload increase (42%).

Almost All airplanes have MTOW options. Airbus marketing really wants to take advantage of these on the A321neo. I wonder how much an XLR would represent? Maybe 14,000lbs?

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:12 pm
by Newbiepilot
AleksW wrote:
Sounds like the A321 NEO LR with the fourth fuel tank :)

Their marketing team perhaps should call it A321 NEO TANKER. :airplane:


I hope it comes with an MTOW increase. Otherwise it will just be a tanker since they can’t fill all the seats!

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:14 pm
by kurtverbose
Newbiepilot wrote:
From reading the article, this just sounds like another MTOW increase for the A321.

Airbus redefined what the suffix LR meant with the A321LR. All the LR represents is a 7,000lbs MTOW increase (3.5%). The ER on 737-900ER was an MTOW increase of 13,000lbs (7.8%). The LR on on the 777LR represents a 230,000lbs payload increase (42%).

Almost All airplanes have MTOW options. Airbus marketing really wants to take advantage of these on the A321neo. I wonder how much an XLR would represent? Maybe 14,000lbs?


Difficult to use the MTOW increase for fuel when the wings are full and a lot of the baggage compartment is full of either luggage or aux fuel tanks.

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:16 pm
by Newbiepilot
osupoke07 wrote:
Isn't this essentially the 321+ or 321 ++?


The article conveniently defined what the A321+ and ++ are

In a surprise move, Airbus previously halted work on a study dubbed A320neo-plus, Reuters reported in April.

The advanced blueprint would have featured increased fuel capacity, a longer fuselage and improvements to the A321’s wing.

A longer-term project, code-named A320neo-plus-plus,” with an all-new carbon-fibre wing, has also been put to one side.


musman9853 wrote:
I thought they shelved the study b/c it wasn't viable?


Later on the article implies that the A321XLR is something simpler.

By halting the studies, Airbus aims to force Boeing to show its hand on the middle-market segment before risking its own capital with a response, people familiar with the decision said.

But others say doing nothing is not without risk since failing to defend the profitable A321 could encourage Boeing to launch its newer jet. “If you do it, you have to move quickly,” an industry source said, referring to plans to improve the A321.


Also the A321plus wasn’t necessarily shelved because it was not viable. A lot of the discussion was around how it was shelved so that Airbus can focus on production issues and ramp up. Airbus has a very complex supply chain on the A320neo and multiple final assembly locations that are using different methods and levels of automation. We had a great discussion (thanks mjoelnir for some of the insight) in the A320plus shelved thread

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:16 pm
by BWIAirport
How long can we keep extending the fuselage and changing the wing before it becomes a new aircraft type?

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:18 pm
by Newbiepilot
BWIAirport wrote:
How long can we keep extending the fuselage and changing the wing before it becomes a new aircraft type?


The article says the plane has no more seats, so it won’t likely be extended

The A321XLR - with more fuel capacity but no extra seats or aerodynamic redesign - is a compromise bet that Airbus hopes will fend off Boeing for the smallest upfront investment.

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:29 pm
by imthedreamliner
Can this aircraft compete with MOM from Boeing ?

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:34 pm
by Momo1435
I love these kind of articles as they really give just enough information to let us know what Airbus is looking into, but not enough details to give us clarity on how and when they are going to do it. This means enough room to let people on an internet forum like this to speculate as much as they want and spin it into a configuration that fits their own preference best.

I mean, you could also spin this into Airbus candidly admitting that the current A321neoLR is not yet good enough for a large part of the midrange missions for which it was designed.

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:45 pm
by Kikko19
william wrote:
Smart move, but I thought Airbus stated it has this "small" market covered with the A321 on the bottom and A330 on top?

small market can become huge if the economics of the "new plane" will be good. AB should go for a rewinged a321/2 from below and a new a300 from above but it has been discussed endlessly in several posts. I'm sure the drawers of both producers are full of paper planes with all discussed layouts :D

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:50 pm
by mjoelnir
One possibility for a A321 XLR could be finding some unused volume of space in the A321. We could start with the A321 having about 160 l less fuel in the wings compared to the A320. The difference is due to a simplified wing tank structure in the A321. The A320 has two tanks per wing and the A321 has only one bigger one. Perhaps reworking the A321 wing tanks will bring back the 80 l per wing and something additional over and above the A320 wing tank.

Perhaps there is a design change possible, that would give additional volume for the center tank.

A change from removable auxiliary tanks to 2 fast installed tanks, one installed in the aft part of the front cargo hold and the other in the front part of the aft cargo hold would perhaps yield more volume and less additional weight, while keeping the option of additional removable tanks.

If the above changes would be possible and we would see an MTOW increase to 100 t, that could be the A321XLR.

Airbus has been steadily working at decreasing the OEW of the 320 family frames. One step was the removal of door #2. Another is the exchange of milled cabin dividers for 3D printed ones, that should soon happen.

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:52 pm
by oldannyboy
A322.

How many are ready to bet that Airbus will soon announce a longer, heavier version of the 321LR?

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:59 pm
by c933103
So what is that shelved 321neo plus thing in relations to this 321XLR? Is it like no additional capacity?

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:03 pm
by c933103
"The A321XLR - with more fuel capacity but no extra seats or aerodynamic redesign - is a compromise bet that Airbus hopes will fend off Boeing for the smallest upfront investment."

How are they going to achieve it? There aren't really much space for a 4th or more ACT in the belly and they aren't redesigning the wing - so what are they going to do?

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:07 pm
by trpmb6
Best option is a rewing of the 321 for more efficiency and increased range by extending the wing (maybe even doing a hinged wing tip like the 777x proposal if bumped to the next classification level). Extended wing = better aspect ratio + potentially additional fuel. Stretch the fuselage and add another fuel tank or grow the ones they have for additional range and more passenger comfort.

But honestly, I think this is more of a response to the rumors that Boeing may be exploring a possible 737-Max11 which would still be a 220 pax configuration but allow you to introduce more class configurations at the max passenger number by stretching the fuselage some.

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:08 pm
by trpmb6
c933103 wrote:
How are they going to achieve it? There aren't really much space for a 4th or more ACT in the belly and they aren't redesigning the wing - so what are they going to do?


Who said they aren't redesigning the wing? I've heard rumors from in the industry that they are in fact looking into this.

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:10 pm
by trpmb6
Newbiepilot wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
How long can we keep extending the fuselage and changing the wing before it becomes a new aircraft type?


The article says the plane has no more seats, so it won’t likely be extended

The A321XLR - with more fuel capacity but no extra seats or aerodynamic redesign - is a compromise bet that Airbus hopes will fend off Boeing for the smallest upfront investment.


Where do you think they'll get that extra fuel capacity?? Only two options. Extend the fuselage and reconfigure the belly fuel tanks and redesign the wing. I suspect they'll do both. Rewing + stretch fuselage gets you more efficiency and extra fuel capacity.