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Polot
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:14 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
How are they going to achieve it? There aren't really much space for a 4th or more ACT in the belly and they aren't redesigning the wing - so what are they going to do?


Who said they aren't redesigning the wing? I've heard rumors from in the industry that they are in fact looking into this.

The article says this proposed A321XLR comes with no wing redesign. The new wing is part of the “plus” and “plus plus” options which have apparently been put aside for now as Airbus works on increasing A320 production instead.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:19 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
Polot wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:

Who said they aren't redesigning the wing? I've heard rumors from in the industry that they are in fact looking into this.

The article says this proposed A321XLR comes with no wing redesign. The new wing is part of the “plus” and “plus plus” options which have apparently been put aside for now as Airbus works on increasing A320 production instead.

I'm curious as to how much more they can get out of this wing design. Anyone who's even flown an A321 model in a simulator knows it climbs like an anchor already.


No different than the 737-900/9/10s. Way too underwinged the thing the A321 has going for it is more thrust to at least give it a tad bit better field performance.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER, MD-82/83, 757-200, 767-300, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:20 pm

imthedreamliner wrote:
Can this aircraft compete with MOM from Boeing ?


That depends on how you mean by compete.

The A330neos competed with the 787 by being cheaper. Once Boeing went thru cost cutting/price cutting and pricing disappeared as an Airbus advantage, the aircraft has to compete on performance. There have been many recent threads on the progress of that.

An A321XLR may not compete on performance with a MOM but it probably can get to market faster (there are plenty of 757s nearing passenger service end-of-life) and with a lot less investment.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:21 pm

Polot wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
How are they going to achieve it? There aren't really much space for a 4th or more ACT in the belly and they aren't redesigning the wing - so what are they going to do?


Who said they aren't redesigning the wing? I've heard rumors from in the industry that they are in fact looking into this.

The article says this proposed A321XLR comes with no wing redesign. The new wing is part of the “plus” and “plus plus” options which have apparently been put aside for now as Airbus works on increasing A320 production instead.

I'm curious as to how much more they can get out of this wing design. Anyone who's even flown an A321 model in a simulator knows it climbs like an anchor already.
SWA, UAL, DAL, AWE, ASA, TRS, DLH, CLH | E190 DC9 712 733 737 738 739 752 762 A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 MD88
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:26 pm

Challenge Boeing where? Boeing themselves haven't figured out how to challenge the A321LR except with words and snakeoil paper planes.

This can't be a challenge to the MOM which is still undefined and whose big selling point is supposed to be more passengers + more range. This A321XLR only solves the range part. The MOM in its 'current version' will still carry about 30-40 more passengers.
 
trpmb6
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:35 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
Polot wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:

Who said they aren't redesigning the wing? I've heard rumors from in the industry that they are in fact looking into this.

The article says this proposed A321XLR comes with no wing redesign. The new wing is part of the “plus” and “plus plus” options which have apparently been put aside for now as Airbus works on increasing A320 production instead.

I'm curious as to how much more they can get out of this wing design. Anyone who's even flown an A321 model in a simulator knows it climbs like an anchor already.


As I said earlier, the rewing is on the table. It is needed. The article may have said "no aerodynamic redesigns" but it's clear the best option is to rewing. And I can tell you, industry is looking at a rewing.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:38 pm

Now instead of having one paper plane (797) we have two. Nice...
 
Etheereal
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:48 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
Challenge Boeing where? Boeing themselves haven't figured out how to challenge the A321LR except with words and snakeoil paper planes.

This can't be a challenge to the MOM which is still undefined and whose big selling point is supposed to be more passengers + more range. This A321XLR only solves the range part. The MOM in its 'current version' will still carry about 30-40 more passengers.

You already answered your own question.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:54 pm

Again; Airbus has not been halting / shelving antything, wake-up.

Still this A321 XLS Plus, Plus -Plus, A322, HGW would be smaller than what Boeing has been communicating on their NMA. But it would further niche the niche.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:02 pm

There are many options to increase fuel tank capacity. You can put fuel tanks in
-wingtip devices
-tailplane
-flaps and slats
-many fairings and empty spaces in the fuselage can be replaced by small tanks.
-external fuel tanks. Wing or fuselage mounted. There could be a merit in installing a fuel tank in an extended nose, improving aerodynamic efficiency at the same time
-drop tanks (EASA/FAA won't approve)
-fuel up with fuel cooled by 50 deg Celsius versus ambient temp. to gain specific gravity by 5%. On the A321, 1 ton gain without any modifications, but high energy costs even if the extracted heat is recycled. Requires special facilities at airports, but not impossible.
-Replace the APU by a fuel tank and if needed additional batteries. Requires ground equipment or electric starting.
-Replace bleed air system by electric A/C and anti-ice, replace ducts by fuel tanks.
-Replace flap fairings by integrated mechanisms to reduce drag and fuel consumption.
-take advantage of miniaturisation of electronics and reduce the E&E bay size to gain additional cargo space. Many LRU's are too big for what they do...
-...
 
49Paralell
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:09 pm

This is why the 338neo is not selling. If Airbus goes ahead with this concept, it will have the same range of the 330. Now think, the 338 has the same range of an A350 with comparable range of an A321. I said it before and I say it again, it is not the 787 killing the 338, its Airbus itself.

Now when it comes to the single isle mid-range market, Airbus will dominate it while Boeing has it figured out for long-range.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:39 pm

With each iteration of this "upgrade" to the A321LR, Airbus seems to go for a simpler and simpler modification. I suspect that this XLR will have three notable modifications:
1) An updated wingtip sharklet that uses new developments in aerodynamic research to decrease cruise phase drag.
2) A pip to the PW engines that further reduces fuel consumption a few percent.
3) A modification to the fuel tank arrangement internally to realize about 5-10% more fuel volume without making belly loading and space utilization any more painful than it already is.

All of that combined could net another 500+ miles to its range. Now, the question is, will that be enough to net sufficient orders for it to fund completion of the project and production? Given how few narrow bodies are actually flying routes that push the technical limits of their range, I just don't see anything but the absolute lowest risk projects going forward.
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:48 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
How long can we keep extending the fuselage and changing the wing before it becomes a new aircraft type?

Pffft. Ask Boeing :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
rbrunner
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:54 pm

If the MoM is going to sit 220-270 pax, that aircraft already exists.
 
Swadian
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:57 pm

49Paralell wrote:
This is why the 338neo is not selling. If Airbus goes ahead with this concept, it will have the same range of the 330. Now think, the 338 has the same range of an A350 with comparable range of an A321. I said it before and I say it again, it is not the 787 killing the 338, its Airbus itself.

Now when it comes to the single isle mid-range market, Airbus will dominate it while Boeing has it figured out for long-range.


This will not have the same range as an A330, it will have about 5,000 nm "paper range" which is still less than the A330, 767, or even the old DC-8-62 or IL-62M.

Also, this record claim by Airbus is mistaken: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgol ... 473e9d1b74.

The A321LR flew only 4,750 nm, but the DC-8-62 was capable of 5,500 nm and the IL-62M of 5,400 nm.

However, I do agree that Airbus can and should dominate the narrowbody market rather than continually fighting Boeing with the failing A330neo.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:25 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
How long can we keep extending the fuselage and changing the wing before it becomes a new aircraft type?


The article says the plane has no more seats, so it won’t likely be extended

The A321XLR - with more fuel capacity but no extra seats or aerodynamic redesign - is a compromise bet that Airbus hopes will fend off Boeing for the smallest upfront investment.


Where do you think they'll get that extra fuel capacity?? Only two options. Extend the fuselage and reconfigure the belly fuel tanks and redesign the wing. I suspect they'll do both. Rewing + stretch fuselage gets you more efficiency and extra fuel capacity.


I assumed they were just putting in more aux tanks in the cargo hold
 
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par13del
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:32 pm

So how close in range and performance will this version of the A321 compare to the base 757-200, I can't believe that after all these updates which includes weight and more powerful engines that its efficiency factor over the 757 remains unchanged.
 
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LX015
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Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:35 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
boxeebox wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Soooooo, is this like your first time on an AvGeek forum or something? That happens all the time.


In all fairness, I gave this a lot of thought before posting but decided it was nothing detrimental towards Jetblue nor were plans leaked. It was more about Airbus possibly proposing a variant of the A321. I would never harm not jeopardize the company I love. Why do you have to be the negative nuisance no one likes? If I leaked real substantial information then sue me. Back to studying your Bluebook and being a Debbie Downer.


The individual to whom you are referring has a long reputations of having a condescending attitude coupled with an overly inflated sense of worth. Easy to skip his postings thanks to his avatar.



Maybe so, but I find his posts insightful and most amusing.

But that's my opinion...
 
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LX015
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:40 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
How long can we keep extending the fuselage and changing the wing before it becomes a new aircraft type?


Ask Boeing. They've done it with the 737.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:52 pm

par13del wrote:
So how close in range and performance will this version of the A321 compare to the base 757-200, I can't believe that after all these updates which includes weight and more powerful engines that its efficiency factor over the 757 remains unchanged.


If Airbus finds additional volume for tankage for the wing and centre tanks, combined with one or 2 permanent installed ACT, and that would be more volume than the current A321 with 3 ACT. If than Airbus adds an MTOW increase to 100 t, I assume the A321 would lift a similar payload and outrange the 757-200.
 
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keesje
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:01 pm

I assume the wingloading is still the most important bottle neck to the A321LR. Plus the 4000NM range, lack of crew rest, and lowish capacity with typical C, M+, M class. There are indications the engines can go up towards 40k lbs.

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1369195

IMO the wing is still the limitting factor for capacity, range and performance. Putting in a wingroot plug (A340NG) moves the engines, landing gear out. So complicated, complete recertificatio would be required. A new wing becomes attractive.

IMO a A321XLR Plus needs 3-4 more rows space, smart space for crew rests, and an hour/ 500NM range extra on top of the A321LR, so ~ 4500NM.

Saying goodbye to ICAO Aer�odrome Reference Code 4C and expanding the outboard wing might be the most easy solution. A few meters bigger span/fuel tanks might do the trick. Plus some additional metal on strategic places between the engines.

Then, knowing Airbus, they might shift to a new wing after some healthy in-fighting.
Last edited by keesje on Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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par13del
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:02 pm

The question is the efficiency, which is the primary reason why the A321 outsold the 757.
If the latest version of the A321 is not that much more efficient than the 757, those carriers who still have 757's may be willing to hold on to them a wee bit longer since they are already paid for.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:03 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
With each iteration of this "upgrade" to the A321LR, Airbus seems to go for a simpler and simpler modification. I suspect that this XLR will have three notable modifications:
1) An updated wingtip sharklet that uses new developments in aerodynamic research to decrease cruise phase drag.
2) A pip to the PW engines that further reduces fuel consumption a few percent.
3) A modification to the fuel tank arrangement internally to realize about 5-10% more fuel volume without making belly loading and space utilization any more painful than it already is.

All of that combined could net another 500+ miles to its range. Now, the question is, will that be enough to net sufficient orders for it to fund completion of the project and production? Given how few narrow bodies are actually flying routes that push the technical limits of their range, I just don't see anything but the absolute lowest risk projects going forward.


1) Given that this is all about extended range, a wingtip optimised for cruise, rather than the current one which balances cruise with climb performance makes sense.
2) Pips would be welcome, I wonder what is possible
3) Fuel modification sounds like what Airbus did to the 359 to create the 359ULR

All this is relatively low hanging fruit so the concept should be able to EIS MUCH earlier than the MoM, albeit only addressing the lower end of the postulated MoM "gap"
 
hooverman
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:39 pm

imthedreamliner wrote:
Can this aircraft compete with MOM from Boeing ?

I don’t think anyone on this forum knows the specs of the MOM.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:22 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
par13del wrote:
So how close in range and performance will this version of the A321 compare to the base 757-200, I can't believe that after all these updates which includes weight and more powerful engines that its efficiency factor over the 757 remains unchanged.


If Airbus finds additional volume for tankage for the wing and centre tanks, combined with one or 2 permanent installed ACT, and that would be more volume than the current A321 with 3 ACT. If than Airbus adds an MTOW increase to 100 t, I assume the A321 would lift a similar payload and outrange the 757-200.


There must be a ton of wasted space using the ACT's. If they go with fixed belly tanks, they can possibly cram more fuel into the hold. While there are no doubt a ton of voids in the 321, I doubt many could be economically fitted out as fuel tanks...other than in the hold. If there was much room left in the wing, I'm sure they would have utilized it for the LR.

So far, the XLR sounds mostly like LR pips to me, and this seems to basically be a PR press release/leak on a slow news day to keep Airbus in the MOM conversation. It's hard to imagine a truly significant range/payload upgrade to the 321 that doesn't involve a new wing.

I think that is what Airbus is really working on but they don't really have to pull the trigger on it until Boeing commits to their MOM.
What the...?
 
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Richard28
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:41 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
I think that is what Airbus is really working on but they don't really have to pull the trigger on it until Boeing commits to their MOM.


But by then Airbus will have likely lost some blue chip MOM launch customers?
 
c933103
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:49 pm

par13del wrote:
So how close in range and performance will this version of the A321 compare to the base 757-200, I can't believe that after all these updates which includes weight and more powerful engines that its efficiency factor over the 757 remains unchanged.

757's wing is still larger by quite a bit of margin
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:50 pm

A new wing opens new territories, but it also brings new headaches. You're going to land in a different weight class which reauire a lot bigger engines and if you don't have more cabin floor space to offer, you're going to trade fuel efficiency for range.
The questions that you need to address is: is the cost of launching the new model plus loss of efficiency vs. the A321NLR worth the additional range?
I doubt it.
 
c933103
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:52 pm

keesje wrote:
I assume the wingloading is still the most important bottle neck to the A321LR. Plus the 4000NM range, lack of crew rest, and lowish capacity with typical C, M+, M class. There are indications the engines can go up towards 40k lbs.

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1369195

IMO the wing is still the limitting factor for capacity, range and performance. Putting in a wingroot plug (A340NG) moves the engines, landing gear out. So complicated, complete recertificatio would be required. A new wing becomes attractive.

IMO a A321XLR Plus needs 3-4 more rows space, smart space for crew rests, and an hour/ 500NM range extra on top of the A321LR, so ~ 4500NM.

Saying goodbye to ICAO Aer�odrome Reference Code 4C and expanding the outboard wing might be the most easy solution. A few meters bigger span/fuel tanks might do the trick. Plus some additional metal on strategic places between the engines.

Then, knowing Airbus, they might shift to a new wing after some healthy in-fighting.

That would mean a new wing and airbus have shelved that
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Airbus A321XLR?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:07 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
Would be interesting to know what range is XLR?
A 4th ACT would be doable on the existent A321LR but with the bulk load heavily loaded and some restriction on High dimension luggages = lot of headackes and bags restrictions on operations just to get an extra 400-500nm extra range from the LR range


Would significantly impact the fish carrying capacity, for sure. :duck:

Airbus could squeeze another few hundred nm out of the A321LR but remember that Airbus flew an A321LR with a simulated full passenger load for 11 hours a couple of months back. The existing model is already exceeding expectations. What is the business case for loading more fuel and cutting more payload just to stay aloft for another half hour or so? Who needs this capability?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:42 pm

Richard28 wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
I think that is what Airbus is really working on but they don't really have to pull the trigger on it until Boeing commits to their MOM.


But by then Airbus will have likely lost some blue chip MOM launch customers?


Not knowing what how the other guy will react is probably what's keeping both Airbus and Boeing from pulling the trigger on their next big, (or MOM), thing.

Other than engines, (which they don't make anyway), the wing is the most important, expensive and research intensive component of an aircraft...which not to imply that a fuse and the rest are cheap and easy...they aren't.

If they do a new wing for the 321, it may very well be the foundation for an all new aircraft. I have no doubt that both companies are working furiously on new wings, which they'll both need for whatever their next generation of aircraft will be.

I think, though, that starting with a re-winged/stretched 321 would definitely narrow the MOM gap for Boeing. If you can carry, 200-240 people efficiently for 5000nm, that's pretty much right on the doorstep of Boeing's MOM.

Whatever the Airbus MOM fighter will be, my sense is that it will require a new wing...regardless of what they say in public.

DocLightning wrote:
Would significantly impact the fish carrying capacity, for sure. :duck:

Airbus could squeeze another few hundred nm out of the A321LR but remember that Airbus flew an A321LR with a simulated full passenger load for 11 hours a couple of months back. The existing model is already exceeding expectations. What is the business case for loading more fuel and cutting more payload just to stay aloft for another half hour or so? Who needs this capability?


I dug up a story on that flight. They flew for 11 hours, but at only at a reported 425 knots with 162 pseudo humans on board. Flying at their normal cruise speed would cut the range and duration significantly.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgol ... b31fcd1b74
What the...?
 
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keesje
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:39 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
par13del wrote:
So how close in range and performance will this version of the A321 compare to the base 757-200, I can't believe that after all these updates which includes weight and more powerful engines that its efficiency factor over the 757 remains unchanged.


If Airbus finds additional volume for tankage for the wing and centre tanks, combined with one or 2 permanent installed ACT, and that would be more volume than the current A321 with 3 ACT. If than Airbus adds an MTOW increase to 100 t, I assume the A321 would lift a similar payload and outrange the 757-200.


There must be a ton of wasted space using the ACT's. If they go with fixed belly tanks, they can possibly cram more fuel into the hold. While there are no doubt a ton of voids in the 321, I doubt many could be economically fitted out as fuel tanks...other than in the hold. If there was much room left in the wing, I'm sure they would have utilized it for the LR.

So far, the XLR sounds mostly like LR pips to me, and this seems to basically be a PR press release/leak on a slow news day to keep Airbus in the MOM conversation. It's hard to imagine a truly significant range/payload upgrade to the 321 that doesn't involve a new wing.

I think that is what Airbus is really working on but they don't really have to pull the trigger on it until Boeing commits to their MOM.


:checkmark:

In recent times I've been mediating what would be the easiest, cheapest way to add wing, without re- creating everything..

Image
Last edited by keesje on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:41 pm

[quote="JoeCanuck"
I dug up a story on that flight. They flew for 11 hours, but at only at a reported 425 knots with 162 pseudo humans on board. Flying at their normal cruise speed would cut the range and duration significantly. [/quote]

That's only 20 kn lower than cruise speed (~446 kn per Airbus). Over a max-range flight that's only a difference of ~20 minutes.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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parapente
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:47 pm

Very constructive comments mjoelnir thanks.This may indeed be how they aim to achieve the additional range whilst keeping everything else common.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:10 pm

DocLightning wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
I dug up a story on that flight. They flew for 11 hours, but at only at a reported 425 knots with 162 pseudo humans on board. Flying at their normal cruise speed would cut the range and duration significantly.


That's only 20 kn lower than cruise speed (~446 kn per Airbus). Over a max-range flight that's only a difference of ~20 minutes.


I went back and noticed the article was mixing knots with mph, so now I have no idea if they mixed up all of the numbers or what. So far, I haven't been able to find another article which gives the cruise speed, (which is too bad because that's an interesting variable), but the flight was apparently 4750nm in 11 hours...which seems pretty good, actually.

I wonder what their TOW was?
Last edited by JoeCanuck on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What the...?
 
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Polot
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:13 pm

Prost wrote:
I know what an engine pip is, but what exactly does the acronym stand for? Sorry for derailing the conversation, but I’m not phrasing my google query appropriately.

Performance Improvement Package.
 
Prost
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:14 pm

I know what an engine pip is, but what exactly does the acronym stand for? Sorry for derailing the conversation, but I’m not phrasing my google query appropriately.
 
george77300
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:18 pm

Prost wrote:
I know what an engine pip is, but what exactly does the acronym stand for? Sorry for derailing the conversation, but I’m not phrasing my google query appropriately.


Performance Improvement Package (PIP)
A306 A313 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A388

B712 B733 B734 B735 B738 B742 B744 B752 B763 B772 B77E B773 B77W B788

AT75 AT76 B190 C208 DH3T P46T SF34 SR20 SR22 TBM8

BA EI EK EY FR GT H3 IG JQ KX PG PW QF QR SQ TG TP UA U2 VS WS WY ZB 8P
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:30 pm

In the "Is Boeing outfoxing Airbus?" thread http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1391009&p=20310963#p20310963 I've argued that all of the Boeing 797 dragging on and waiving concepts around was keeping Airbus from converting R&D expenses as effectively into new revenue providing products that could hurt Boeing now (as in the next few years).

I find it interesting that since then apparently Airbus has put R&D into (1) increasing production and (2) into launching "low hanging fruit" (XLR). Both of which provide revenue and hurt Boeing in the "short term".
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
jagraham
Posts: 373
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:49 pm

william wrote:
Smart move, but I thought Airbus stated it has this "small" market covered with the A321 on the bottom and A330 on top?


Airbus has problems on the top end. A358 died from overweight, and A338 looks to be going down same path, although there is some hope for it.

A332 is capable but weighs too much for the MOM range. But the A300 was okay for weight. Since the fuselage is the same - except for 3m extra with A332 - Airbus should spend their money and time re-winging the A332. And reducing necessary thrust.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:41 am

BWIAirport wrote:
How long can we keep extending the fuselage and changing the wing before it becomes a new aircraft type?


They can do it for at least 41 years, according to evidences:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:46 am

keesje wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

If Airbus finds additional volume for tankage for the wing and centre tanks, combined with one or 2 permanent installed ACT, and that would be more volume than the current A321 with 3 ACT. If than Airbus adds an MTOW increase to 100 t, I assume the A321 would lift a similar payload and outrange the 757-200.


There must be a ton of wasted space using the ACT's. If they go with fixed belly tanks, they can possibly cram more fuel into the hold. While there are no doubt a ton of voids in the 321, I doubt many could be economically fitted out as fuel tanks...other than in the hold. If there was much room left in the wing, I'm sure they would have utilized it for the LR.

So far, the XLR sounds mostly like LR pips to me, and this seems to basically be a PR press release/leak on a slow news day to keep Airbus in the MOM conversation. It's hard to imagine a truly significant range/payload upgrade to the 321 that doesn't involve a new wing.

I think that is what Airbus is really working on but they don't really have to pull the trigger on it until Boeing commits to their MOM.


:checkmark:

In recent times I've been mediating what would be the easiest, cheapest way to add wing, without re- creating everything..

Image


The article is specifically stating that there won’t be wing modifications or more seating:

The A321XLR - with more fuel capacity but no extra seats or aerodynamic redesign - is a compromise bet that Airbus hopes will fend off Boeing for the smallest upfront investment.

How are you rationalizing what the article says with your proposed design?

keesje wrote:
Again; Airbus has not been halting / shelving antything, wake-up.

Still this A321 XLS Plus, Plus -Plus, A322, HGW would be smaller than what Boeing has been communicating on their NMA. But it would further niche the niche.


What makes you more credible than Tim Hepher from Reuters?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-hepher-5b62b382


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN1JE0ZE

In a surprise move, Airbus previously halted work on a study dubbed A320neo-plus, Reuters reported in April.

The advanced blueprint would have featured increased fuel capacity, a longer fuselage and improvements to the A321’s wing.

A longer-term project, code-named A320neo-plus-plus,” with an all-new carbon-fibre wing, has also been put to one side.

By halting the studies, Airbus aims to force Boeing to show its hand on the middle-market segment before risking its own capital with a response, people familiar with the decision said.
 
BobbyPSP
Posts: 228
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:39 am

I don't believe any US carrier uses containers on the A32x family. I believe I saw Swiss using it when I was transiting MUC
 
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seahawk
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:59 am

A warmed over A321 will not be a challenge to the MoM.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4465
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:34 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:

There must be a ton of wasted space using the ACT's. If they go with fixed belly tanks, they can possibly cram more fuel into the hold. While there are no doubt a ton of voids in the 321, I doubt many could be economically fitted out as fuel tanks...other than in the hold. If there was much room left in the wing, I'm sure they would have utilized it for the LR.

So far, the XLR sounds mostly like LR pips to me, and this seems to basically be a PR press release/leak on a slow news day to keep Airbus in the MOM conversation. It's hard to imagine a truly significant range/payload upgrade to the 321 that doesn't involve a new wing.

I think that is what Airbus is really working on but they don't really have to pull the trigger on it until Boeing commits to their MOM.


:checkmark:

In recent times I've been mediating what would be the easiest, cheapest way to add wing, without re- creating everything..

Image


The article is specifically stating that there won’t be wing modifications or more seating:

The A321XLR - with more fuel capacity but no extra seats or aerodynamic redesign - is a compromise bet that Airbus hopes will fend off Boeing for the smallest upfront investment.

How are you rationalizing what the article says with your proposed design?

keesje wrote:
Again; Airbus has not been halting / shelving antything, wake-up.

Still this A321 XLS Plus, Plus -Plus, A322, HGW would be smaller than what Boeing has been communicating on their NMA. But it would further niche the niche.


What makes you more credible than Tim Hepher from Reuters?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-hepher-5b62b382


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN1JE0ZE

In a surprise move, Airbus previously halted work on a study dubbed A320neo-plus, Reuters reported in April.

The advanced blueprint would have featured increased fuel capacity, a longer fuselage and improvements to the A321’s wing.

A longer-term project, code-named A320neo-plus-plus,” with an all-new carbon-fibre wing, has also been put to one side.

By halting the studies, Airbus aims to force Boeing to show its hand on the middle-market segment before risking its own capital with a response, people familiar with the decision said.


Since my post is included in the quote, I reckon I'll chime in.

I, for one, am not worried about being more credible than anyone. I just call them as I see them. It's not like we've never gotten a bum steer from an aircraft maker or journalist.

As well, I never speculated that the XLR would have a new wing...but that whatever the next iteration of the 321 would likely have a new wing. I think the XLR would supplant the LR, the same way that the 737-10 has pretty much killed off the spanking new 737-9.
What the...?
 
Chemist
Posts: 294
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:56 am

You could call it the XLB for extra little baggage.
 
Flyglobal
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:25 am

Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:25 am

seahawk wrote:
A warmed over A321 will not be a challenge to the MoM.


In theory maybe yes, but in the meantime until 2025 (Boeing) or as it seems rather 2027 (Uzar) it will take volume from the lower MOM end- let’s say the lower 15-20%. Then if Airbus decides for a rewing and length extension (A322) then another 15-25% will be gone and the MOM is left with an unbeatable 270 seat Version. Probably the risk is that Boeing can calculate the Business case forever

Flyglobal
 
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keesje
Posts: 11321
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:35 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:

There must be a ton of wasted space using the ACT's. If they go with fixed belly tanks, they can possibly cram more fuel into the hold. While there are no doubt a ton of voids in the 321, I doubt many could be economically fitted out as fuel tanks...other than in the hold. If there was much room left in the wing, I'm sure they would have utilized it for the LR.

So far, the XLR sounds mostly like LR pips to me, and this seems to basically be a PR press release/leak on a slow news day to keep Airbus in the MOM conversation. It's hard to imagine a truly significant range/payload upgrade to the 321 that doesn't involve a new wing.

I think that is what Airbus is really working on but they don't really have to pull the trigger on it until Boeing commits to their MOM.


:checkmark:

In recent times I've been mediating what would be the easiest, cheapest way to add wing, without re- creating everything..

Image


The article is specifically stating that there won’t be wing modifications or more seating:

The A321XLR - with more fuel capacity but no extra seats or aerodynamic redesign - is a compromise bet that Airbus hopes will fend off Boeing for the smallest upfront investment.

How are you rationalizing what the article says with your proposed design?

keesje wrote:
Again; Airbus has not been halting / shelving antything, wake-up.

Still this A321 XLS Plus, Plus -Plus, A322, HGW would be smaller than what Boeing has been communicating on their NMA. But it would further niche the niche.


What makes you more credible than Tim Hepher from Reuters?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-hepher-5b62b382


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN1JE0ZE

In a surprise move, Airbus previously halted work on a study dubbed A320neo-plus, Reuters reported in April.

The advanced blueprint would have featured increased fuel capacity, a longer fuselage and improvements to the A321’s wing.

A longer-term project, code-named A320neo-plus-plus,” with an all-new carbon-fibre wing, has also been put to one side.

By halting the studies, Airbus aims to force Boeing to show its hand on the middle-market segment before risking its own capital with a response, people familiar with the decision said.




Newbiepilot wrote:
What makes you more credible than Tim Hepher from Reuters?


Well in this case, it seems he hit the wall with his shelving story. And many where enthousiastically jumping after him, without looking any further. Sometimes you have that when people love the idea. Maybe he selected his sources for succes? You tell me.

Airbus is considering it’s options and every option seperately or in combination has it’s cost & benefits. The reference against where these trade-offs are made are also moving. To fly blind on what somewhat said at one point at a place and time and consider that leading for a shift, will result in many surprizes. Repeatedly. Reent history show. Every option is open.

Maybe there is still a (french) fraction within Airbus that is lobbyin for something entirely new, to be build in TLS of course. And Paris is (somehow) putting money on the table for it.

They will do what in the end to board get convinced of, is te best. And does that change over time ? Imagine it never would..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Siddar
Posts: 82
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Re: Airbus is studying A321XLR to challenge Boeing

Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:49 am

Jayafe wrote:
Now instead of having one paper plane (797) we have two. Nice...


That's is purpose of this plane. Airbus wants a plane to challenge potential MoM from Boeing even if they don't actually produce the plane. They shelved the big wing 320 concept and so had nothing to offer to compete with MoM. So they have proposed 321XLR a much simpler response to MoM. They don't really think this plane can compete with a clean sheet design but it will allow them to claim a longer range for 321neo family. For a few orders it maybe enough to prevent MoM sales and also it puts price pressure on MoM by eating up its range advantage.

Long term this plane is likely to only sale in the range of few hundred if it get made at all. But it serves it purpose weather it made or not by putting pressure on MoM.
 
parapente
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Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:57 am

Doc/Joe I don't think it's an accident that Airbus made it difficult to know precisely what the LR could actually do.They mixed up the speed,range,and payloads-from the norm.But what they were saying (I think) is 'watch out this baby can go further than you might imagine'.
They will tell us at Farnbrough I am sure.Indeed all the XLR stuff is directly related to Farnbrough I think.Its a sort of branded PIP but with some internal hardware changes.
One imagines they will stick with the 206 2 class arrangement (though I would imagine many will go with 200 2 class for obvious reasons).
But range?They are very very strongly hinting that it will be above 4knm.But by how much I wonder and indeed how much more is actually needed for the majority of trips?Clearly some ,as one imagines some airlines have asked if it is possible to have more range -this is not a technical exercise but a marketing one.
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