https://www.thenational.ae/business/avi ... s-1.736529

Title says it all. Loads on AC are generally pretty high, in and around 90%. AC is bumping the flight up to a 77W this winter as a result. If it wast painfully evident, the bilateral is grossly inadequate. I understand the political connotations, however, there comes a time to move on. I'm glad official discourse is happening. It's better for both parties as a whole to have a relationship that is more reflective of realty.

The Canadian government also recently relaxed the visa requirement on UAE citizens, making it easier for travel between Canada and the UAE.

Canada is in a nice spot with the bilateral. They've locked EK and EY out of Canada for the most part. It gives them a great barganing position. Canada is probably one of the biggest untapped markets for EK. I expect Canada to ask for some serious concessions in exchange for loosening the bilateral.

klakzky123 wrote:

Canada is in a nice spot with the bilateral. They've locked EK and EY out of Canada for the most part. It gives them a great barganing position. Canada is probably one of the biggest untapped markets for EK. I expect Canada to ask for some serious concessions in exchange for loosening the bilateral.

You make a good point with that, they do have all of the leverage. WS has a pretty significant codeshare agreement with EK, and AC/EY codeshare. Ensuring their agreements are protected, and paving the way for onward connections could still benefit Canadian carriers all the while adding another option for consumers.

AC, like many has always voiced concerns that they would be flooded out of markets, but given growth, especially in India, and the space concerns at Canadian airports precluding a large increase in number of flights, opening up the market to more EK/EY services, on large aircraft would help alleviate strain on the system long term, and provide Canadian carriers with more opportunity to benefit from codeshare networks to build customer bases abroad. Long story short, there is only so much AC and WS can do on their own, a little bit more reliance on international carriers to provide services to a wider variety of destinations would do them good network wide. Its a broader strategy that would provide a fair bit more stability.

EK and EY are going to have more access to YYC, YVR, YEG, and YUL. Obviously frequency into YYZ. Canada should just restrict them into staying YYZ.

LH658 wrote:

EK and EY are going to have more access to YYC, YVR, YEG, and YUL. Obviously frequency into YYZ. Canada should just restrict them into staying YYZ.

I could see EK and EY going daily into YYZ and then starting YVR basically right away. I wonder if YYZ will lose the A380 if EK is granted a daily flight?

I cannot see either airline starting YYC right away, it will happen but YVR is a much more lucrative market. Yes EK has a codeshare with WS and YYC will happen eventually, but YYZ is now a WS hub as well and they probably want to expand YYZ yesterday..

LH658 wrote:

EK and EY are going to have more access to YYC, YVR, YEG, and YUL. Obviously frequency into YYZ. Canada should just restrict them into staying YYZ.

A very protectionist move that you are proposing, one that will be of no benefit to the flying public.

What is the estimate timing that the ME3 carriers will get permission to fly daily into Canada?

LH658 wrote:

EK and EY are going to have more access to YYC, YVR, YEG, and YUL. Obviously frequency into YYZ. Canada should just restrict them into staying YYZ.

Because they are scared of competition? US3 syndrome?

klakzky123 wrote:

Canada is in a nice spot with the bilateral. They've locked EK and EY out of Canada for the most part. It gives them a great barganing position. Canada is probably one of the biggest untapped markets for EK. I expect Canada to ask for some serious concessions in exchange for loosening the bilateral.

Which serious concessions would those be? Increased frequencies for AC? The UAE doesn't restrict anyone from flying to its airports. AC could have had all the frequencies it wants a long time ago.

airbazar wrote:

The UAE doesn't restrict anyone from flying to its airports. AC could have had all the frequencies it wants a long time ago.

The current bilateral restricts each country to 6 frequencies a week. Normally 3 per airline unless approved by each side. AC flies its allotted 3, EY has 3 and EK has 3. I would have liked to see WS pick up the other 3, but ...

If they are allowed daily, then that all but edges WS out of the market.

As there is little O&D traffic to/from the UAE, EK/EY are selling a superb hub to points further east. AC is now selling a tremendous product connecting through Canada that even the US can't match, unless with a non-stop product. This puts both country's airlines on a more even playing field.

I am curious to see what develops. Likely a very slow growth formula, with checks along the way.

airbazar wrote:

klakzky123 wrote:

Canada is in a nice spot with the bilateral. They've locked EK and EY out of Canada for the most part. It gives them a great barganing position. Canada is probably one of the biggest untapped markets for EK. I expect Canada to ask for some serious concessions in exchange for loosening the bilateral.

Which serious concessions would those be? Increased frequencies for AC? The UAE doesn't restrict anyone from flying to its airports. AC could have had all the frequencies it wants a long time ago.

AC (or any Canadian carrier that is) is restricted by the same limitations the UAE is subject to.

longhauler wrote:

airbazar wrote:

The UAE doesn't restrict anyone from flying to its airports. AC could have had all the frequencies it wants a long time ago.

The current bilateral restricts each country to 6 frequencies a week. Normally 3 per airline unless approved by each side. AC flies its allotted 3, EY has 3 and EK has 3. I would have liked to see WS pick up the other 3, but ...

If they are allowed daily, then that all but edges WS out of the market.

As there is little O&D traffic to/from the UAE, EK/EY are selling a superb hub to points further east. AC is now selling a tremendous product connecting through Canada that even the US can't match, unless with a non-stop product. This puts both country's airlines on a more even playing field.

I am curious to see what develops. Likely a very slow growth formula, with checks along the way.

YYC-DXB 3x a week coming soon, stay tuned.....

whywhyzee wrote:

airbazar wrote:

klakzky123 wrote:

Canada is in a nice spot with the bilateral. They've locked EK and EY out of Canada for the most part. It gives them a great barganing position. Canada is probably one of the biggest untapped markets for EK. I expect Canada to ask for some serious concessions in exchange for loosening the bilateral.

Which serious concessions would those be? Increased frequencies for AC? The UAE doesn't restrict anyone from flying to its airports. AC could have had all the frequencies it wants a long time ago.

AC (or any Canadian carrier that is) is restricted by the same limitations the UAE is subject to.

But those restrictions are based on Canadian restrictions, not UAE's. The UAE has been asking for more frequencies for years and would gladly give Canada more as well. They have no problem with competition. It's Canada who doesn't want or has not wanted more. So again, given that the UAE has been willing to give frequencies, which serious concessions would Canada ask for?

airbazar wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

airbazar wrote:

Which serious concessions would those be? Increased frequencies for AC? The UAE doesn't restrict anyone from flying to its airports. AC could have had all the frequencies it wants a long time ago.

AC (or any Canadian carrier that is) is restricted by the same limitations the UAE is subject to.

But those restrictions are based on Canadian restrictions, not UAE's. The UAE has been asking for more frequencies for years and would gladly give Canada more as well. They have no problem with competition. It's Canada who doesn't want or has not wanted more. So again, given that the UAE has been willing to give frequencies, which serious concessions would Canada ask for?

With any luck Canada will not loosen the bilateral in any way until the UAE cleans up its act in Yemen and backs down on the Qatar blockade.

YOWza

airbazar wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

airbazar wrote:

Which serious concessions would those be? Increased frequencies for AC? The UAE doesn't restrict anyone from flying to its airports. AC could have had all the frequencies it wants a long time ago.

AC (or any Canadian carrier that is) is restricted by the same limitations the UAE is subject to.

But those restrictions are based on Canadian restrictions, not UAE's. The UAE has been asking for more frequencies for years and would gladly give Canada more as well. They have no problem with competition. It's Canada who doesn't want or has not wanted more. So again, given that the UAE has been willing to give frequencies, which serious concessions would Canada ask for?

My assumption are concessions outside of aviation in the context of some other trade deal. It's just a general piece of leverage in overall trade policy and diplomacy.

Didn't they hold talks last year as well? Nothing really came out of it

yowza wrote:

airbazar wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

AC (or any Canadian carrier that is) is restricted by the same limitations the UAE is subject to.

But those restrictions are based on Canadian restrictions, not UAE's. The UAE has been asking for more frequencies for years and would gladly give Canada more as well. They have no problem with competition. It's Canada who doesn't want or has not wanted more. So again, given that the UAE has been willing to give frequencies, which serious concessions would Canada ask for?

With any luck Canada will not loosen the bilateral in any way until the UAE cleans up its act in Yemen and backs down on the Qatar blockade.

YOWza

What a great idea. We won’t have an economy if we base trade on foreign policy. Canada is already withering away as witnessed with the Transmountain fiasco last week. We are 5 years too late in opening up to EK and EY.

I can see emorates putting YVR flights on priority.

Emirates773ER wrote:

yowza wrote:

airbazar wrote:

But those restrictions are based on Canadian restrictions, not UAE's. The UAE has been asking for more frequencies for years and would gladly give Canada more as well. They have no problem with competition. It's Canada who doesn't want or has not wanted more. So again, given that the UAE has been willing to give frequencies, which serious concessions would Canada ask for?

With any luck Canada will not loosen the bilateral in any way until the UAE cleans up its act in Yemen and backs down on the Qatar blockade.

YOWza

What a great idea. We won’t have an economy if we base trade on foreign policy. Canada is already withering away as witnessed with the Transmountain fiasco last week. We are 5 years too late in opening up to EK and EY.

I can see emorates putting YVR flights on priority.

Withering away? Things are actually looking pretty bright in this country especially if you drown out the whinging from the oil patch. Also the notion that trade and policy don't/shouldn't go hand in hand is laughable. I'm all for giving the UAE more access (my suggestion would be 21x per carrier per week for starters) but if we can reduce/eliminate the kidnap and torture of civilians (including women and children) in Yemen by UAE forces and better understand Abu Dhabi's plans for Socotra, we absolutely should.

YOWza

"Under a 1999 agreement, the UAE is allowed to operate six flights per week to and from Canada. Emirates operates three weekly flights from Dubai to the Canadian capital Toronto using its Airbus A380. Etihad operates three flights a week between Abu Dhabi and Toronto, while Air Canada has operated a thrice-weekly service between Toronto and Dubai since 2015."

That made me chuckle. I was not aware that Ottawa was no longer the capital.

yowza wrote:

airbazar wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

AC (or any Canadian carrier that is) is restricted by the same limitations the UAE is subject to.

But those restrictions are based on Canadian restrictions, not UAE's. The UAE has been asking for more frequencies for years and would gladly give Canada more as well. They have no problem with competition. It's Canada who doesn't want or has not wanted more. So again, given that the UAE has been willing to give frequencies, which serious concessions would Canada ask for?

With any luck Canada will not loosen the bilateral in any way until the UAE cleans up its act in Yemen and backs down on the Qatar blockade.

YOWza

Agree with YOWza. Moreover, we should also demand an improvement in UAE human rights abuses of their own residents, before offering more frequencies.

yowza wrote:

Emirates773ER wrote:

yowza wrote:

With any luck Canada will not loosen the bilateral in any way until the UAE cleans up its act in Yemen and backs down on the Qatar blockade.

YOWza

What a great idea. We won’t have an economy if we base trade on foreign policy. Canada is already withering away as witnessed with the Transmountain fiasco last week. We are 5 years too late in opening up to EK and EY.

I can see emorates putting YVR flights on priority.

Withering away? Things are actually looking pretty bright in this country especially if you drown out the whinging from the oil patch. Also the notion that trade and policy don't/shouldn't go hand in hand is laughable. I'm all for giving the UAE more access (my suggestion would be 21x per carrier per week for starters) but if we can reduce/eliminate the kidnap and torture of civilians (including women and children) in Yemen by UAE forces and better understand Abu Dhabi's plans for Socotra, we absolutely should.

YOWza

yyz717 wrote:

yowza wrote:

airbazar wrote:

Agree with YOWza. Moreover, we should also demand an improvement in UAE human rights abuses of their own residents, before offering more frequencies.

Kind of a slippery slope is it not? No fewer than 9 airlines from China are given the rights to fly to Canada, with new routes opening each year, yet there are a lot of concern over human rights abuses in China. What about Cubana? Or what about Palestinian-rights activists who may say, okay then, let's do the same to El Al.

Not saying some pressure with a carrot and stick approach is not beneficial, but just to play devils advocate.

alan3 wrote:

Kind of a slippery slope is it not? No fewer than 9 airlines from China are given the rights to fly to Canada, with new routes opening each year, yet there are a lot of concern over human rights abuses in China. What about Cubana? Or what about Palestinian-rights activists who may say, okay then, let's do the same to El Al.

Not saying some pressure with a carrot and stick approach is not beneficial, but just to play devils advocate.

Politics makes for strange bedfellows and is fraught with double standards. I don't love it but that's the way it is. Just because Canada can't/doesn't apply the same leverage against others doesn't mean that it shouldn't in the case of the UAE. What's happening in Yemen under UAE and Saudi "leadership" is unacceptable and if we (Canada) can throw even a little weight around to stop children dying we probably should. I'm all for more cooperation, trade, and links with the GCC provided that they are held to account for some of the less palatable things they oversee. A little show of good faith on both sides could go a long way.

YOWza

yowza wrote:

alan3 wrote:

Kind of a slippery slope is it not? No fewer than 9 airlines from China are given the rights to fly to Canada, with new routes opening each year, yet there are a lot of concern over human rights abuses in China. What about Cubana? Or what about Palestinian-rights activists who may say, okay then, let's do the same to El Al.

Not saying some pressure with a carrot and stick approach is not beneficial, but just to play devils advocate.

Politics makes for strange bedfellows and is fraught with double standards. I don't love it but that's the way it is. Just because Canada can't/doesn't apply the same leverage against others doesn't mean that it shouldn't in the case of the UAE. What's happening in Yemen under UAE and Saudi "leadership" is unacceptable and if we (Canada) can throw even a little weight around to stop children dying we probably should. I'm all for more cooperation, trade, and links with the GCC provided that they are held to account for some of the less palatable things they oversee. A little show of good faith on both sides could go a long way.

YOWza

In other words let’s go after the GCC but not poke the giants like China. Luckily when I was the with the Canadian Trade Commissioner in Abu Dhabi last month, he absolutely did not share this view (or the Liberal Goveent for that matter).

Emirates773ER wrote:

In other words let’s go after the GCC but not poke the giants like China. Luckily when I was the with the Canadian Trade Commissioner in Abu Dhabi last month, he absolutely did not share this view (or the Liberal Goveent for that matter).

Who said anything about the GCC? I'm talking specifically about pressuring those waging war in Yemen under questionable pretences and not exactly keeping their noses clean in the process - so specifically the UAE and the Saudis. If the Qataris came knocking for 21x a week I would be all for it. And yes I know they have engaged in a few dubious activities as well but nothing like annexation and state sanctioned kidnapping and torture of foreign nationals.

As for China. 1) Yes, don't poke the bear but also 2) squeezing China in this way would change nothing in Beijing. This kind of action could drive change in AUH. realpolitik or bust.

YOWza