https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hna- ... SKCN1IY0G3

According to this latest Reuters report, China’s conglomerate HNA Group has agreed to buy 200 C919 and 100 ARJ-21 planes from the Commercial Aircraft Corp of China Ltd /COMAC in a strategic cooperation deal

HNA would introduce the aircrafts in China and in overseas markets such as Africa over an unspecified period of time

HNA said it had signed the deal to support growth of China's aviation industry as well as Beijing-led "Made in China 2025" and One Belt One Road initiatives

Any thoughts for this big-stroke deal? Any taint of horse trading , esp considering the financial woes unsettling HNA?

Could they even fly to overseas markets with the (lack of) regulatory approval both aircraft currently have with the relevant authorities?

JustSomeDood wrote:

Could they even fly to overseas markets with the (lack of) regulatory approval both aircraft currently have with the relevant authorities?

If they want to use the plane to Africa, I believe China may have enough governmental pressure to get certain countries to approve the planes.

I'm sure HNA was FORCED into buying these airplanes by the PRC Government or face either economic sanctions or decertification.

Newbiepilot wrote:

JustSomeDood wrote:

Could they even fly to overseas markets with the (lack of) regulatory approval both aircraft currently have with the relevant authorities?

If they want to use the plane to Africa, I believe China may have enough governmental pressure to get certain countries to approve the planes.

Just need to call in all the "loans" they have given to various nations across Africa, Asia and the Pacific Islands and there is a ready made market for them. Or at the least, places to fly these aircraft besides China itself.

There’s something I cannot help but find mildly amusing, for the last couple of decades there’s been quite a bit made about the use of 8 in aircraft names for the appeal this would have for luck in Far East/Chinese cultures, yet however non of the programmes from that part of the world feature an 8 anywhere in their names...I know this started somewhat with the 380-800 although there was some logic at least in this name as the 8 mirrored the crosssection...

I wonder why this is

Reminds me of aeroflot.

100 ARJ-21? That's like another century worth of production.

This has horse-trading all over it. Even CN3 only ordered 20x C919 each with 5 firm and 15 options.

And ARJ21? The plane that nobody wants? At least C919 has its merit as a cheaper 737 or 320, and a new C919 definitely beat those ultra old 737 Classics that are poorly maintained in "3rd world" country.

As for regulatory - it is not like C919 can really fly non-stop to that many countries to begin with from China. ARJ21? The same plane that is having problems flying non-stop between Shanghai and Chengdu?

Weren't they having financial problems? Seems weird to go on a shopping spree.

This deal is all of those things the cynics say, this is true.

But I cannot fault the PRC for this kind of maneuver (including how they will undoubtedly "encourage" the African market); this is exactly how they have climbed out of a nearly medieval deep hole in a span of only 70 years. This is how they have improved the fortunes for their own people - their way.

I always laugh at the posters here on a.net who so casually disparage Chinese industry with such off handed slights about lack of quality, or "they can only copy", etc.
They will be a legit competitor to the duopoly someday; probably sooner than you think.

Never underestimate the Chinese.

Wow, and they were the ones I thought would be the most immune to government pressure to buy these. Interesting.

Wow, how unfair, aerospace industry should be able to hold their own. Let free market mechanisms do their work. Government should stay out!

https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/1028x675/format/jpg/quality/85/http%3A%2F%2Fo.aolcdn.com%2Fhss%2Fstorage%2Fmidas%2F239985ba048eaad9b600e50b3943368e%2F205408349%2Fpresident-donald-trump-addresses-a-crowd-during-the-debut-event-for-picture-id642426576

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4308590

It's like the cold war again, we only see what fits our believes & preferences.

What sane company would order 100 planes that in their initial operation cannot even do intacity flights in China without major issues! On top of that this is a company that was recently having many financial problems.

I think there is much more to this deal than meets the eye.

chrisp390 wrote:

What sane company would order 100 planes that in their initial operation cannot even do intacity flights in China without major issues! On top of that this is a company that was recently having many financial problems.

I think there is much more to this deal than meets the eye.

You will likely find a reversal of fortunes for HNA in the near future.

FlyHappy wrote:

chrisp390 wrote:

What sane company would order 100 planes that in their initial operation cannot even do intacity flights in China without major issues! On top of that this is a company that was recently having many financial problems.

I think there is much more to this deal than meets the eye.

You will likely find a reversal of fortunes for HNA in the near future.

After the central gov't eventually bailed them out (Even though the gov't is partially responsible for the current problems by clamping down on bad loans. But on the other hand, the central gov't also do so to prevent HNA from going to a point where it's way "too big to fail").

Also, one thing to keep in mind is that the aviation business of HNA is doing fine, it's everything else for HNA Group that's not doing fine.

Last note? Maybe b/c the only planes HNA can afford to order are C919s and ARJ21s?

chrisp390 wrote:

What sane company would order 100 planes that in their initial operation cannot even do intacity flights in China without major issues! On top of that this is a company that was recently having many financial problems.

I think there is much more to this deal than meets the eye.

Totally agree there is more than meets the eye. This is the very definition of geopolitics. Spreading Chinese influence - and I don't think it's a coincidence only 2 days before the US Commerce Secretary goes to China. I see this as a message to the US about future Boeing sales to China.

Pressure and price.

The pressure to comply with China's political policies going into the next 20 years, as well as the chance to acquire aircraft at China pricing.

The ARJ-21 hasn't been flying around the world for nothing. Lessors will have been taking a quiet look at it. If its problems and finishing are now up to the spec required, then it gets interesting to banks and funds wishing to do business in China.

China is a big country with a huge population. It needs cheap lift. The ARJ-21 at least benefits from a proven engine technology.

FlyHappy wrote:

This deal is all of those things the cynics say, this is true.

But I cannot fault the PRC for this kind of maneuver (including how they will undoubtedly "encourage" the African market); this is exactly how they have climbed out of a nearly medieval deep hole in a span of only 70 years. This is how they have improved the fortunes for their own people - their way.

I always laugh at the posters here on a.net who so casually disparage Chinese industry with such off handed slights about lack of quality, or "they can only copy", etc.
They will be a legit competitor to the duopoly someday; probably sooner than you think.

Never underestimate the Chinese.

Should they really want African countries buying these planes?

Not all countries in Africa of course, but some of the county's safety standard is....suspicious to say the least.

Varsity1 wrote:

Reminds me of aeroflot.

Except Aeroflot was 100% government owned in the USSR days, and today Russian aircraft are leaps and bound better than Chinese aircraft and arent strong armed to buy 300 of them.

HNAs high-ups must have really pissed of someone high in the Communist party.

LAX772LR wrote:

Wow, and they were the ones I thought would be the most immune to government pressure to buy these. Interesting.

Or consider that they may have been given a sweetheart deal. I’m sure HNA wouldn’t object to buying these airplanes for a song.

thekorean wrote:

FlyHappy wrote:

Never underestimate the Chinese.

Should they really want African countries buying these planes?

Not all countries in Africa of course, but some of the county's safety standard is....suspicious to say the least.

Absolutely.
Have a review at just how US "soft power" came be in the last 70 years. John Deere for agricultural, Caterpillar for heavy equipment, Douglas/Boeing for aviation..... those Comac's won't just get sold "cheap"... they'll come with plenty of engineering support, along with the financing. Wanna know what the Chinese are better at then the West? History.

There's one way, and one way only for the Chinese aviation industry to elevate to the duopoly levels - and that's by attaining a critical mass of adoption; something even the Russians haven't been able to do. The Chinese will not fail.

"The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) today announced the signing of an implementing agreement under the U.S. – China Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement (BASA) recognizing each other’s regulatory systems with respect to the airworthiness of aviation products and articles."

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsI ... id=101_N_U

keesje wrote:

Wow, how unfair, aerospace industry should be able to hold their own. Let free market mechanisms do their work. Government should stay out!

https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/1028x675/format/jpg/quality/85/http%3A%2F%2Fo.aolcdn.com%2Fhss%2Fstorage%2Fmidas%2F239985ba048eaad9b600e50b3943368e%2F205408349%2Fpresident-donald-trump-addresses-a-crowd-during-the-debut-event-for-picture-id642426576

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4308590

It's like the cold war again, we only see what fits our believes & preferences.

Airbus, Boeing, RR, GE all got their share of start-up help.
If governments want to sink money into aerospace and aviation, we should encourage it as it will help the industry compete and develop and become more (environmentally) sustainable.

There is still a lot of development to be had before we can say that we have achieved the perfect representation of intra-planetary long distance travel.

If there hadn't been Airbus to challenge Boeing and other manufacturers, Boeing would happily be selling B737 Classics today at top prices.

All of our discussions on airliners.net will become irrelevant sooner than we think. We have come this far in 115 years, so in 100 years things will look a lot different from today.

I'm happy to see China competing with money and shear resources. I won't be setting foot on any of their airliners before I can be assured that safety is guaranteed by millions of hours of immaculate operations.
However, them catching up will force Airbus, Boeing or others to come up with new solutions.

Now HNA need all the support they can find including political support and such. As it seems like preordering ARJ21/C919 are literally free that airlines won't need to pay anything now, I can see why HNA would want to actively facilitate this order, just to get more support and more cards to keep the group and its airlines still afloat

JustSomeDood wrote:

Could they even fly to overseas markets with the (lack of) regulatory approval both aircraft currently have with the relevant authorities?

Probably not, my guess is that it will be limited to Chinese airspace

Is HNA paying for these with their vast cash reserves or their sterling credit worthiness?

Obviously this deal is completely government funded, and was probably part of the reason HNA was suddenly able to pay their fuel bill in the face of a shutdown.

The "Buy Chinese" policy is just crazy. Any country with a wildly xenophobic and jingoistic policy like that would be ridiculed...

Sean-SAN- wrote:

Is HNA paying for these with their vast cash reserves or their sterling credit worthiness?

It's being payed for by the good folks who buy iphones and/or shop at Walmart.

On that note...can we expect a Walmart Air, flying ARJ21's soon...?

JoeCanuck wrote:

The "Buy Chinese" policy is just crazy. Any country with a wildly xenophobic and jingoistic policy like that would be ridiculed.

Umm...sounds familar, you sure you are not talking about Trump's America?

And seriously, you realized the only thing Chinese on the C919 is its shell, right? Engine? CFM Leap (ok, there is the CJ-1000A, but it has ways to go). Avionics? Rockwell Collins. Tire? Michelin. Brakes and Wheel System? Honeywell.

P.S. I found it funny that it is alright for US Airlines to be Boeing only, but when Chinese airlines decided to make a splash in their own planes, it is a no-no.

Just bc there are tons more Airbus than Boeing in China, I guess.

I think the sooner there is serious competition for the duopoly the better. It is so tiresome how they keep warming up their old a/c models. Somebody needs to make them nervous

Duopoly isn’t good. Not for competition or politics

ARJ orders? Usually I congratulate for orders, but that plane has turned out nothing to a curse to everyone involved
Interesting to me that they haven't abandoned it as a learning experience instead of trying to keep pushing something that is such a burden to it's operators.

Good, all the more reason for me to avoid them. I spoke to some German engineers in Shanghai, working for COMAC on the C919 a few years back, they all told me that they will avoid flying on the C919 themselves, and they will tell their family to avoid it as well. As for the ARJ21, the less said about that one, the better.

Could any of these be heading for Iran ?

iceberg210 wrote:

ARJ orders? Usually I congratulate for orders, but that plane has turned out nothing to a curse to everyone involved
Interesting to me that they haven't abandoned it as a learning experience instead of trying to keep pushing something that is such a burden to it's operators.

Pretty sure the only operator that the ARJ has is a COMAC subsidiary...

This sort of politically influenced order is also the exact action that will stifle competition everywhere else, by reducing the possibility of better planes (MRJ, C-Series, MC-21) from attaining critical mass in orders and operations.

JustSomeDood wrote:

Could they even fly to overseas markets with the (lack of) regulatory approval both aircraft currently have with the relevant authorities?

Once the relevant Chinese authorities issue the proper airworthiness paperwork, what's to stop them?

200 C919's would make sense for 700 airlines worth of a group in China, but when the ARJ has been in production since WW2 and they have produced about 3 planes I can't tell why they'd order it.

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-hna-to ... erg-2018-6

HNA to get China state support for fundraising

China's top leaders have agreed to help debt-laden conglomerate HNA Group Co raise funds

A senior official at the People's Bank of China, on Tuesday, led a meeting with three regulators, the Hainan provincial government, HNA's co-chairman Chen Feng and the company's biggest creditor, asking the attendees to support HNA's future bond issues

Seems like a huge favor returned by the government to HNA

Spacepope wrote:

100 ARJ-21? That's like another century worth of production.

Each ARJ is flying 0.8 cycles and 1.2 hours. It burns more fuel than the competition too.

The E2-190 flies 8 cycles per day and 10 hours per day with more seats.

Or 8 to 9 E2-190 can move as many ASKs as that hundred ARJs.

For the record, I would fly on a Su-100 or MC-21. I will not fly on an ARJ or C919.

Lightsaber

FlyHappy wrote:

This deal is all of those things the cynics say, this is true.

But I cannot fault the PRC for this kind of maneuver (including how they will undoubtedly "encourage" the African market); this is exactly how they have climbed out of a nearly medieval deep hole in a span of only 70 years. This is how they have improved the fortunes for their own people - their way.

I always laugh at the posters here on a.net who so casually disparage Chinese industry with such off handed slights about lack of quality, or "they can only copy", etc.
They will be a legit competitor to the duopoly someday; probably sooner than you think.

Never underestimate the Chinese.

Yep they China has a 100 year plan and the US has a 4/8 year plan at best.

It isn't that the Chinese cannot do it, they design from above. Aerospace engineering requires input from below.
ARJ-21 had issues, the lower level engineers would report the problem, and nothing would happen until a redesign had to happen. Not all redesigns happened...

The C919 is having similar issues. If you cannot say "this isn't good enough," it won't be.

China progressed well by finding out what others have developed. Now is the how.

Commercial aircraft require dependability. Turn times, fuel burn, low maintenance costs.

The Y-10 was started in 1970. China should have had a competitive airframe within 20 years. It has been 48 years.

They failed on the MA-60/600
ARJ-21

C919 is taking way too long... Everyone does recall it was the launch platform for the LEAP engine, right? First flight was supposed to be in 2014 which would have been a 2016 EIS
To put that timeline into perspective, NEO First flight September 2014, after many delays, delivery in early 2016. Remember all the threads on all the NEO delays? And yet the C919, which was launched much earlier, back in 2008, hasn't entered service.

Maybe we should compare to the c-series which really had a program launch in 2004 (not official, my opinion). First delivery 2016. But note the composite wing and advanced subsystems.

So on that timeline, a 2020 EIS would be OK, but we're looking at 2021 at the earliest. Again, this isn't COMAC's/AVIC's first attempt. Nor 2nd, nor 3rd...

C929 will be interesting to follow.

Lightsaber

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... undraising.
According to report they currently have more than 93 million USD debts, but the highest level officials in the Chinese government decided that the issue is caused by liquidity and thus should be helped, unlike other Chinese companies that face similar situation, and instructed regulators, regional governments, banks, creditors, and other relevant parties to help support future sales of HNA group bonds. The report also stated that borrowing banks will manage their dealings with HNA at a headquarters level, while state-run China Development Bank will be in charge of future creditor meetings. And the report said HNA was instructed to to focus on its main business of travel and to stop diversifying through acquisitions.

In other word does that mean China is going to bail out HNA?

lol its 93 billion. 93 million would have been a non-issue.

I have merged the HNA bailout and the order thread together due to their related natures.

Interesting that the ARJ-21 will receive a weight and drag PIP. Obviously, reliability issues would be addressed. At at least attempted.

http://atwonline.com/airframes/comac-wo ... tion-arj21

Due to the need for help with the amazing amount of debt the HNA group has, I cannot help but wonder if the airline is doomed now. Missed dispatch reliability is costly for the airline...

With all that PRC govt money, HNA can now buy AI, get an LoTA from DCGA for both types, and fly the Hump. [/humour]

WPvsMW wrote:

With all that PRC govt money, HNA can now buy AI, get an LoTA from DCGA for both types, and fly the Hump. [/humour]

People would probably appreciate and understand your jokes if you didn't use acronyms...

OK, but it takes longer to write.
With all that Chinese government money, Hainan Group can now buy Air India, get an Letter of Type Acceptance from the Govt. of India Directorate General of Civil Aviation for both the C919 and ARJ-21, and fly the Himalayan route between China and India. [/humour]

(It was written for Lightsaber, who understood the encrypted version. Apologies for any tea-drenched display panels, since it's a preposerous notion, and therefore humourous, along the lines of multiplying two negative numbers to get a positive product.)

downdata wrote:

lol its 93 billion. 93 million would have been a non-issue.

Ah true that's a mistake when I typed it

MalevTU134 wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

With all that PRC govt money, HNA can now buy AI, get an LoTA from DCGA for both types, and fly the Hump. [/humour]

People would probably appreciate and understand your jokes if you didn't use acronyms...

What does it say about me that I found it funny without translation!

Then again, we once had a 45 minute meeting that had us all laughing as we hadn't used a verb for 45 minutes, and instead were using acronyms entirely! Ok... I'm a geek.

For China to buy AI would require an opening of China/India bilateral... Hmmm...

Lightsaber

Report claim a group of HNA group executive have been send to Yan'an, the Mecca for Communist Party of China, to learn about the spirit of the party and the spirit of Xi Jin Ping. They are also going to open a training base at a party school, and executives are dressed in revolution-era party uniform celebrating the base opening while making salute.