Update on CU972 crashed near HAV: Aircraft probably wrongly loaded

leghorn · Mon May 21, 2018 10:57 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
I know folks want to turn this into a political debate, but I'll just note that 732s are not that uncommon in the Americas. According to various sources, you can still find them operational in Mexico, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Colombia, and Canada (the most Communist of them all) /sarcasm

The later vintage 737s were all from the mid to late 1980s which makes them no older than some of the DC-10s that still fly all over the place for top tier carriers like FedEx...

You are equating freight to living people?

washingtonflyer · Mon May 21, 2018 11:33 am

You're saying that pilots and passengers on freighter aircraft are lesser people than pilots and passengers on scheduled passenger aircraft?

leghorn · Mon May 21, 2018 11:38 am

freight planes carry as a general rule only flight crew and freight. When a freighter goes down tears are shed by one or two immediate familes, not many hundreds and as you can see on other threads here the 732 is only being flown by operators who have special requirements. it is not being used as daily passenger transport in normal operating environments.

U.S. foreign policy is killing innocents while not furthering policy objectives in any meaningful manner and that is shameful.

Apprentice · Mon May 21, 2018 11:40 am

And now everything start again......
A former Pilot said It have a demand since 2013 due to lack of maintenance...
(Sorry only in spanish)
http://www.14ymedio.com/nacional/Ex-den ... 55982.html
For those who... Source is a Daily news, digital and no controlled by goverment: 14ymedio.com. They publish in spanish and translate only part of it.

And editorial, from same newspaper in english :
http://translatingcuba.com/we-ask-for-t ... ane-crash/

Rgds

Apprentice · Mon May 21, 2018 11:43 am

leghorn wrote:
freight planes carry as a general rule only flight crew and freight. When a freighter goes down tears are shed by one or two immediate familes, not many hundreds and as you can see on other threads here the 732 is only being flown by operators who have special requirements. it is not being used as daily passenger transport in normal operating environments.

U.S. foreign policy is killing innocents while not furthering policy objectives in any meaningful manner and that is shameful.

Hi, And more important, NTSB & FAA regulations for a Pax plane are much more restrictive then for a cargo one.

Rgds

washingtonflyer · Mon May 21, 2018 11:45 am

leghorn wrote:
freight planes carry as a general rule only flight crew and freight. When a freighter goes down tears are shed by one or two immediate familes, not many hundreds and as you can see on other threads here the 732 is only being flown by operators who have special requirements. it is not being used as daily passenger transport in normal operating environments.

U.S. foreign policy is killing innocents while not furthering policy objectives in any meaningful manner and that is shameful.

And they can carry company employees or pilots from other carriers who are transiting. So I'm glad you're sympathy is lessened for the lives of freighter airline crews.

So, now that you view them as lesser people, what say you about the dozens of MD-80s that are flying for Delta that are 25 to 35 years in age. They're not communist aircraft...

aerorobnz · Mon May 21, 2018 12:40 pm

I had a great flight just a few weeks ago on a -200C delivered on 30.09.80 so just a little younger than this one. That makes it a shade under 38 years old. I also did 5 MD88 flights this trip aged between 28-30 years of age A320s that were 26-27 years and saw 1942-1945 pistons in ops as well as many 30+ dash 7/dash 8 s. Just remember that old planes are flying all over the place and that this outfit sounds like they are run by cowboys so in actual fact, it is unlikely to be anything but neglect/shortcuts. Aeroplanes of this era are made much tougher and without accountants cutting back engineering to match budgets so much so they can be sure the6 sell it for the right price- the metal they use is hard as anything and doesn't damage easily. with stones and ice
and crashes etc. The maintenance teams of several of these operators were telling me this. I even saw a DC3 that was operational having crashed in Antarctica.

I feel safer in operationally proven aircraft that are well maintained over brand new jets flying for a cowboy carrier, any day of the week. Safety is adhered to or it isn't at all. In this case, we know what the airline was not following industry standards based on some of the reports that have been filed.

TtailMD88 · Mon May 21, 2018 1:06 pm

732s still flown in pax service in Alaska too.

oldannyboy · Mon May 21, 2018 1:06 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
I know folks want to turn this into a political debate, but I'll just note that 732s are not that uncommon in the Americas. According to various sources, you can still find them operational in Mexico, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Colombia, and Canada (the most Communist of them all) /sarcasm

The later vintage 737s were all from the mid to late 1980s which makes them no older than some of the DC-10s that still fly all over the place for top tier carriers like FedEx or MD-80s flown by Delta.

Seriously, no - us 'folks' don't want to turn this into a political debate. It's that seeing a thing like CU having to resort to chartering a cheap, beaten up, 40-year old 732 from a shady Mexican outfit BECAUSE of the embargo is just shouting for a reminder of the impact sanctions are having on the daily life of Cubans. The civilian population lacks access not only to western non-essential *recreational* goods, but also to medicines, surgical tools, diagnostic machinery, as well as spares to keep all sorts of machinery safely operational.
The fact that people are actually trying to keep politics quietly aside I find most irritating. The accident is a direct consequence of the sanctions, make no mistake dear fellow A.netters.
Do you seriously think that otherwise, CU would not be flying A320s (as they did in the past) in lieu of An-148s (currently grounded) or wet-leasing random capacity from external sources??

jonnyclam123 · Mon May 21, 2018 1:51 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
According to various sources, you can still find them operational in Mexico, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Colombia, and Canada

Northern Air Cargo still operates two out of ANC and Sierra Pacific flies one out of TUS.

Apprentice · Mon May 21, 2018 1:52 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
I had a great flight just a few weeks ago on a -200C delivered on 30.09.80 so just a little younger than this one. That makes it a shade under 38 years old. I also did 5 MD88 flights this trip aged between 28-30 years of age A320s that were 26-27 years and saw 1942-1945 pistons in ops as well as many 30+ dash 7/dash 8 s. Just remember that old planes are flying all over the place and that this outfit sounds like they are run by cowboys so in actual fact, it is unlikely to be anything but neglect/shortcuts. Aeroplanes of this era are made much tougher and without accountants cutting back engineering to match budgets so much so they can be sure the6 sell it for the right price- the metal they use is hard as anything and doesn't damage easily. with stones and ice
and crashes etc. The maintenance teams of several of these operators were telling me this. I even saw a DC3 that was operational having crashed in Antarctica.

I feel safer in operationally proven aircraft that are well maintained over brand new jets flying for a cowboy carrier, any day of the week. Safety is adhered to or it isn't at all. In this case, we know what the airline was not following industry standards based on some of the reports that have been filed.

Hi, just a question, which company own the plane? Inmatriculation?

Please, understand the problem is not age, but how this ladys had been conserved and mantained.
Rgds

Cubsrule · Mon May 21, 2018 1:54 pm

leghorn wrote:
freight planes carry as a general rule only flight crew and freight. When a freighter goes down tears are shed by one or two immediate familes, not many hundreds and as you can see on other threads here the 732 is only being flown by operators who have special requirements. it is not being used as daily passenger transport in normal operating environments.

U.S. foreign policy is killing innocents while not furthering policy objectives in any meaningful manner and that is shameful.

I'm skeptical that there is much difficulty maintaining 732s these days for carriers - passenger or freight - who care to do the work. Several reputable carriers - DL and LA come to mind - flew 732s well into the 2000s. The JT8D remains in service, including extensive passenger service. And, the 737 family remains ubiquitous.

Gonzalo · Mon May 21, 2018 2:10 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
I know folks want to turn this into a political debate, but I'll just note that 732s are not that uncommon in the Americas. According to various sources, you can still find them operational in Mexico, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Colombia, and Canada (the most Communist of them all) /sarcasm

The later vintage 737s were all from the mid to late 1980s which makes them no older than some of the DC-10s that still fly all over the place for top tier carriers like FedEx or MD-80s flown by Delta.

There is not a single 732 operating regular flights in Chile. The type is not banned as far as I know, but the fuel performance is not attractive for the operators in our country. We have some 737 classics, 733/734 I believe, but not 732.
Rgds.
G.

Apprentice · Mon May 21, 2018 2:20 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
I had a great flight just a few weeks ago on a -200C delivered on 30.09.80 so just a little younger than this one. That makes it a shade under 38 years old. I also did 5 MD88 flights this trip aged between 28-30 years of age A320s that were 26-27 years and saw 1942-1945 pistons in ops as well as many 30+ dash 7/dash 8 s. Just remember that old planes are flying all over the place and that this outfit sounds like they are run by cowboys so in actual fact, it is unlikely to be anything but neglect/shortcuts. Aeroplanes of this era are made much tougher and without accountants cutting back engineering to match budgets so much so they can be sure the6 sell it for the right price- the metal they use is hard as anything and doesn't damage easily. with stones and ice
and crashes etc. The maintenance teams of several of these operators were telling me this. I even saw a DC3 that was operational having crashed in Antarctica.

I feel safer in operationally proven aircraft that are well maintained over brand new jets flying for a cowboy carrier, any day of the week. Safety is adhered to or it isn't at all. In this case, we know what the airline was not following industry standards based on some of the reports that have been filed.

Hi, just a question, which company own the plane? Inmatriculation?

Please, understand the problem is not age, but how this ladys had been conserved and mantained.
Rgds

washingtonflyer · Mon May 21, 2018 2:22 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
I know folks want to turn this into a political debate, but I'll just note that 732s are not that uncommon in the Americas. According to various sources, you can still find them operational in Mexico, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Colombia, and Canada (the most Communist of them all) /sarcasm

The later vintage 737s were all from the mid to late 1980s which makes them no older than some of the DC-10s that still fly all over the place for top tier carriers like FedEx or MD-80s flown by Delta.

There is not a single 732 operating regular flights in Chile. The type is not banned as far as I know, but the fuel performance is not attractive for the operators in our country. We have some 737 classics, 733/734 I believe, but not 732.
Rgds.
G.

Didn't say regular flights - said "operational."

What if I were to show you a photo of a 737-200 taken at SCL less than 60 days ago....

TWA302 · Mon May 21, 2018 2:34 pm

Can someone help clarify why the AN-158s bought back in 2012, which are all grounded since April can’t get parts from Russia? They (Russia) are bringing in new cars, locomotives and trading hundreds of millions of dollars a quarter with Cuba. Also I am guessing this leased 732 was acquired to put something on these domestic routes that the 158 served? I also hope there is some transparency in the report on this tragic event. My prayers are with these families and friends.

Aviano789 · Mon May 21, 2018 2:55 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
I had a great flight just a few weeks ago on a -200C delivered on 30.09.80 so just a little younger than this one. That makes it a shade under 38 years old. I also did 5 MD88 flights this trip aged between 28-30 years of age A320s that were 26-27 years and saw 1942-1945 pistons in ops as well as many 30+ dash 7/dash 8 s. Just remember that old planes are flying all over the place and that this outfit sounds like they are run by cowboys so in actual fact, it is unlikely to be anything but neglect/shortcuts. Aeroplanes of this era are made much tougher and without accountants cutting back engineering to match budgets so much so they can be sure the6 sell it for the right price- the metal they use is hard as anything and doesn't damage easily. with stones and ice
and crashes etc. The maintenance teams of several of these operators were telling me this. I even saw a DC3 that was operational having crashed in Antarctica.

I feel safer in operationally proven aircraft that are well maintained over brand new jets flying for a cowboy carrier, any day of the week. Safety is adhered to or it isn't at all. In this case, we know what the airline was not following industry standards based on some of the reports that have been filed.

I believe the DC-3s are the oldest bird’s still flying Pax in places like the Colombian Amazonian jungle. By comparison to the 732s still flying, these frames are old and can even be consider dinosaurs. With attentive decent maintenance they keep on providing Pax and freight service to remote and road-less part of Amazonia. I agree by US or modern Aviation standards 732s are old, but with proper maintenance and well train crews I don’t see why they can’t keep flying.

aerorobnz · Mon May 21, 2018 3:06 pm

Apprentice wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:
I

Hi, just a question, which company own the plane? Inmatriculation?

Please, understand the problem is not age, but how this ladys had been conserved and mantained.
Rgds

I certainly understand as that is exactly what I just said. I was sick of reading about the fact it was the age that was the biggest factor from many upthread and the stupid media report.

dcajet · Mon May 21, 2018 3:28 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
I know folks want to turn this into a political debate, but I'll just note that 732s are not that uncommon in the Americas. According to various sources, you can still find them operational in Mexico, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Colombia, and Canada (the most Communist of them all) /sarcasm

The later vintage 737s were all from the mid to late 1980s which makes them no older than some of the DC-10s that still fly all over the place for top tier carriers like FedEx or MD-80s flown by Delta.

But you leave out one *very important* detail. Planes by themselves are not safe/unsafe. It is the maintenance and operations that make the difference. While there may be 732s in Canada, the US or wherever, MD88s with Delta, etc., one has to look at how those planes are operated/looked after. Something tells me that Global Air is not up there with Delta when it comes to any and every aspect of running an airline.

beechnut · Mon May 21, 2018 3:46 pm

Aviano789 wrote:
I believe the DC-3s are the oldest bird’s still flying Pax in places like the Colombian Amazonian jungle. By comparison to the 732s still flying, these frames are old and can even be consider dinosaurs. With attentive decent maintenance they keep on providing Pax and freight service to remote and road-less part of Amazonia. I agree by US or modern Aviation standards 732s are old, but with proper maintenance and well train crews I don’t see why they can’t keep flying.

You can't compare a DC-3 to a 737 as the DC-3 is unpressurized. Pressurized aircraft have issues all of their own and lifespan isn't limited by only hours or years, but also by cycles, and above a certain number of cycles, "old aircraft" issues and special inspections start to add up, and cost many $. And that requires resources not always available to a fly-by-night carrier.

That said, there is another thread on Nolinor updating the avionics on the 737C. This is a gravel-kit equipped aircraft and is still in service flying off and on gravel airstrips daily. Check it out, it's a great, informative thread. Nolinor has little choice as it's one of the few, if not the only, Western jet certified to operate off gravel airstrips.

Beech

Gonzalo · Mon May 21, 2018 3:52 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
I know folks want to turn this into a political debate, but I'll just note that 732s are not that uncommon in the Americas. According to various sources, you can still find them operational in Mexico, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Colombia, and Canada (the most Communist of them all) /sarcasm

The later vintage 737s were all from the mid to late 1980s which makes them no older than some of the DC-10s that still fly all over the place for top tier carriers like FedEx or MD-80s flown by Delta.

There is not a single 732 operating regular flights in Chile. The type is not banned as far as I know, but the fuel performance is not attractive for the operators in our country. We have some 737 classics, 733/734 I believe, but not 732.
Rgds.
G.

Didn't say regular flights - said "operational."

What if I were to show you a photo of a 737-200 taken at SCL less than 60 days ago....

You made a statement that could be interpreted like we have 732 flying in Chile on a regular basis like Canada or Mexico, and we don’t, you can probably find some stored aircraft or maybe a rare foreigner visitor, but not a single frame *working* in Chilean skies, that’s the point of my clarification. I love the 732, flew dozens of times in the Lan “chanchos” ( pigs ) and have not any complaint about them or any doubt about how safe they are if you take care of them properly.

Rgds.
G.

washingtonflyer · Mon May 21, 2018 4:03 pm

And this photo is from less than 60 days ago at SCL...

ramsesbaez · Mon May 21, 2018 5:56 pm

rbavfan wrote:
D L X wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
Oh boy....

What are we looking at in this photo? Is that the left and right wings charred and tinted blue?

That's a lot of intact pieces of plane that has burned out. Hopefully an indication of survivability!

It's the tail fin & rudder. Look up Global Damojh 732 pics and you will see.

I think that is. Vertical Fin. (stabilator)

debonair · Mon May 21, 2018 6:01 pm

leghorn wrote:
so if it isn't an economic decision that leads Cubana to fly 737-200 then it most likely is politicial...

I think there is a major problem you all don't see - CUBANA operated until now modern A320 by AVION EXPRESS, like LY-VEW, LY-VEV, LY-COM. These birds AFAIK returned for the north summer hemisphere high season and are now operating for CONDOR and other airlines, bringing for sure more money. If the truth reason was, that CUBANA was not able to pay the rental fees pls. correct me!

I have no idea at all about the safety inside of GLOBAL AIRWAYS, but believe me when I say, that I felt me more safe on a veteran Magnicharters B737-200 other than like a much more younger VIVA AEROBUS B737Classic!

mark1484 · Mon May 21, 2018 7:27 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Didn't CU fly HOG-HAV-LGW-HOG-HAV using the Ilyushin IL-96? I think it was CU400 to LGW and CU401 from LGW.

They did yes, although most of the time it was subbed to a Spanish wet lease company.
When i flee the route on 2010 it was LGW-HOG-HAV-LGW

dcajet · Mon May 21, 2018 7:53 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
You made a statement that could be interpreted like we have 732 flying in Chile on a regular basis like Canada or Mexico, and we don’t, you can probably find some stored aircraft or maybe a rare foreigner visitor, but not a single frame *working* in Chilean skies, that’s the point of my clarification. I love the 732, flew dozens of times in the Lan “chanchos” ( pigs ) and have not any complaint about them or any doubt about how safe they are if you take care of them properly.

Rgds.
G.

Gonzalo, Aerovias DAP still has 3 operational 737-200s: CC-CTK, CC-ABD and CC-AAG.

AYVN · Mon May 21, 2018 7:56 pm

Not knowing what impact embargo has with this accident, but it is clear what embargo does for airlines and aviation in embargo affected countries. Look history of Vietnam Airlines before embargo was lifted and what happened in 15 years time after embargo was lifted. Now I fly with them with joy, but it was wery diffent case before embargo was lifted. Not only airlines are affected, the whole infracture for airtravel is affected. Poor radars, poor navigational aid's, poor airtrafic control, poor airport systems...

Gonzalo · Mon May 21, 2018 9:17 pm

dcajet wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
You made a statement that could be interpreted like we have 732 flying in Chile on a regular basis like Canada or Mexico, and we don’t, you can probably find some stored aircraft or maybe a rare foreigner visitor, but not a single frame *working* in Chilean skies, that’s the point of my clarification. I love the 732, flew dozens of times in the Lan “chanchos” ( pigs ) and have not any complaint about them or any doubt about how safe they are if you take care of them properly.

Rgds.
G.

Gonzalo, Aerovias DAP still has 3 operational 737-200s: CC-CTK, CC-ABD and CC-AAG.

Ok, my mistake, I stand corrected. I have to admit that I had no idea about the Mineral 732 of the picture above or the DAP frames you mention.
What routes are they flying??

Rgds.
G.

qf789 · Mon May 21, 2018 10:18 pm

Please stick to the topic and keep political comments out of the discussion, political comments can only be made in the Non Aviation forum

Avi8r747 · Mon May 21, 2018 10:51 pm

leghorn wrote:
freight planes carry as a general rule only flight crew and freight. When a freighter goes down tears are shed by one or two immediate familes, not many hundreds and as you can see on other threads here the 732 is only being flown by operators who have special requirements. it is not being used as daily passenger transport in normal operating environments.

U.S. foreign policy is killing innocents while not furthering policy objectives in any meaningful manner and that is shameful.

Please tell this to the UPSers when the crew of UPS 6 was brought home.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6bEroKmQhg/url]

dcajet · Mon May 21, 2018 11:47 pm

Mexico authorities have temporarily suspended Aerolineas Damojh DBA Global Airlines AOC while its operations are audited.

http://www.elmundo.es/internacional/201 ... b4808.html

KICT · Mon May 21, 2018 11:56 pm

TtailMD88 wrote:
732s still flown in pax service in Alaska too.

Northern Air Cargo carries passengers now?

dcajet · Tue May 22, 2018 1:01 am

Gonzalo wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
You made a statement that could be interpreted like we have 732 flying in Chile on a regular basis like Canada or Mexico, and we don’t, you can probably find some stored aircraft or maybe a rare foreigner visitor, but not a single frame *working* in Chilean skies, that’s the point of my clarification. I love the 732, flew dozens of times in the Lan “chanchos” ( pigs ) and have not any complaint about them or any doubt about how safe they are if you take care of them properly.

Rgds.
G.

Gonzalo, Aerovias DAP still has 3 operational 737-200s: CC-CTK, CC-ABD and CC-AAG.

Ok, my mistake, I stand corrected. I have to admit that I had no idea about the Mineral 732 of the picture above or the DAP frames you mention.
What routes are they flying??

Rgds.
G.

I am not sure, to be honest, other than I have read that they have done some sports charters for Argentinean FC clubs, a market that Andes has pretty much cornered, although Amaszonas Bolivia and Paraguay have started to make its presence felt in that space too. CC-AAG is flying under the Mineral name, so I'd imagine they do work on behalf of mining companies flying mine workers to airports close to the mines. They (DAP) also fly a # of antique BAe 146s too, some of them to Antarctica.

dcajet · Tue May 22, 2018 1:04 am

One of the 3 survivors from Friday's accident has died today in Havana. Grettel Landrove, 23, was in extreme critical condition at Havana's Calixto Garcia Hospital.

RIP.

http://www.elmundo.es/internacional/201 ... b4639.html

Apprentice · Tue May 22, 2018 2:03 am

TWA302 wrote:
Can someone help clarify why the AN-158s bought back in 2012, which are all grounded since April can’t get parts from Russia? They (Russia) are bringing in new cars, locomotives and trading hundreds of millions of dollars a quarter with Cuba. Also I am guessing this leased 732 was acquired to put something on these domestic routes that the 158 served? I also hope there is some transparency in the report on this tragic event. My prayers are with these families and friends.

This is a very old problem. Back to Soviet years: No spare parts / Engines/ etc. And not and alocate spares kit, to mantain plane flying

Back in the “rose”years, for instance, if a plane reached time to next Capital Check, sit on taxi-way and parts, even engine were robbed.. Near Check date, low resources (hrs) parts were installed back to flight a/c to URSS to service.
Nowdays, there is not much differences and that is the reason for the ceason....

Rgds

32andBelow · Tue May 22, 2018 2:05 am

KICT wrote:
TtailMD88 wrote:
732s still flown in pax service in Alaska too.

Northern Air Cargo carries passengers now?

Does NAC even have 200s anymrke? They are quickly modernizing. They just got a 767 delivered.

wjcandee · Tue May 22, 2018 3:30 am

32andBelow wrote:
KICT wrote:
TtailMD88 wrote:
732s still flown in pax service in Alaska too.

Northern Air Cargo carries passengers now?

Does NAC even have 200s anymrke? They are quickly modernizing. They just got a 767 delivered.

Yes they have -200s. 320DL, 321DL and 322DL. The latter doesn't seem to have flown in the last 90 days. The other two are in use.

The 767-300 that they lease from CAM is flying routes from MIA to various islands. Hardly the same thing. Different, new business.

dcajet · Tue May 22, 2018 3:35 am

Apprentice wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
Can someone help clarify why the AN-158s bought back in 2012, which are all grounded since April can’t get parts from Russia? They (Russia) are bringing in new cars, locomotives and trading hundreds of millions of dollars a quarter with Cuba. Also I am guessing this leased 732 was acquired to put something on these domestic routes that the 158 served? I also hope there is some transparency in the report on this tragic event. My prayers are with these families and friends.

This is a very old problem. Back to Soviet years: No spare parts / Engines/ etc. And not and alocate spares kit, to mantain plane flying

Back in the “rose”years, for instance, if a plane reached time to next Capital Check, sit on taxi-way and parts, even engine were robbed.. Near Check date, low resources (hrs) parts were installed back to flight a/c to URSS to service.
Nowdays, there is not much differences and that is the reason for the ceason....

Rgds

This article by Mexican aviation portal EnelAire.mx lists in great detail the issues the IACC -Instituto de Aeronautica Civil de Cuba found with the AN158 fleet: It goes way beyond spares and its availabilty or lack of.

“Considerando que desde el comienzo de la explotación de las referidas aeronaves y de manera permanente, se han detectado, en una u otra aeronave indistintamente, la ocurrencia de fallos en sistemas complejos, formados por componentes mecánicos, eléctricos, hidráulicos, así como en algoritmos de trabajo de las computadores y bloques de control y medición de las aeronaves, en los cuales, el fabricante esta trabajando en ejecutar modificaciones, mejoras, ajustes y cambios en los programas de mantenimiento. Del mismo modo, existen evidencias de errores de diseño y fabricación en la estructura de estas aeronaves, tales como, serios problemas en el sistema de mando y controles y rajaduras en la cuaderna de fuerza número 18 de la aeronave CU-T1714."

There were also issues with the D-436 engines' temperatures over the last three months.

http://enelaire.mx/cubana-de-aviacion-d ... us-an-158/

It is rather ironic and sad that barely two weeks after Cubana had to ground the backbone of its domestic fleet and resort to chartering planes that this unfortunate accident happened.

Gonzalo · Tue May 22, 2018 12:21 pm

dcajet wrote:
Apprentice wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
Can someone help clarify why the AN-158s bought back in 2012, which are all grounded since April can’t get parts from Russia? They (Russia) are bringing in new cars, locomotives and trading hundreds of millions of dollars a quarter with Cuba. Also I am guessing this leased 732 was acquired to put something on these domestic routes that the 158 served? I also hope there is some transparency in the report on this tragic event. My prayers are with these families and friends.

This is a very old problem. Back to Soviet years: No spare parts / Engines/ etc. And not and alocate spares kit, to mantain plane flying

Back in the “rose”years, for instance, if a plane reached time to next Capital Check, sit on taxi-way and parts, even engine were robbed.. Near Check date, low resources (hrs) parts were installed back to flight a/c to URSS to service.
Nowdays, there is not much differences and that is the reason for the ceason....

Rgds

This article by Mexican aviation portal EnelAire.mx lists in great detail the issues the IACC -Instituto de Aeronautica Civil de Cuba found with the AN158 fleet: It goes way beyond spares and its availabilty or lack of.

“Considerando que desde el comienzo de la explotación de las referidas aeronaves y de manera permanente, se han detectado, en una u otra aeronave indistintamente, la ocurrencia de fallos en sistemas complejos, formados por componentes mecánicos, eléctricos, hidráulicos, así como en algoritmos de trabajo de las computadores y bloques de control y medición de las aeronaves, en los cuales, el fabricante esta trabajando en ejecutar modificaciones, mejoras, ajustes y cambios en los programas de mantenimiento. Del mismo modo, existen evidencias de errores de diseño y fabricación en la estructura de estas aeronaves, tales como, serios problemas en el sistema de mando y controles y rajaduras en la cuaderna de fuerza número 18 de la aeronave CU-T1714."

There were also issues with the D-436 engines' temperatures over the last three months.

http://enelaire.mx/cubana-de-aviacion-d ... us-an-158/

It is rather ironic and sad that barely two weeks after Cubana had to ground the backbone of its domestic fleet and resort to chartering planes that this unfortunate accident happened.

I found extremely serious the part of that report saying "there is also evidence of mistakes in the design and manufacturing of this airframes like serious problems with the piloting and control system and cracks....". If this assertion is correct, and this aircraft type has design and manufacturing mistakes, then the problem is not limited to the Cubana's frames, but the entire An-158 fleet all over the world. It shoud be grounded worldwide.

Rgds.
G.

vlaakko · Tue May 22, 2018 1:27 pm

The problems with the AN-158 are unfortunate but not really surprising. Ukraine seems to have serious problems with quality in many fields, whether it's airplanes, other vehicles, electronics, whatever. They really need to step up if they want to be a serious economical player. Hopefully Antonov is able to improve the product but since Cubana is the only operator of this model, are they really going to keep upgrading it? Politics above anything else has pretty much killed it and new orders are not exactly plentiful.

dcajet · Tue May 22, 2018 2:46 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Apprentice wrote:

This is a very old problem. Back to Soviet years: No spare parts / Engines/ etc. And not and alocate spares kit, to mantain plane flying

Back in the “rose”years, for instance, if a plane reached time to next Capital Check, sit on taxi-way and parts, even engine were robbed.. Near Check date, low resources (hrs) parts were installed back to flight a/c to URSS to service.
Nowdays, there is not much differences and that is the reason for the ceason....

Rgds

This article by Mexican aviation portal EnelAire.mx lists in great detail the issues the IACC -Instituto de Aeronautica Civil de Cuba found with the AN158 fleet: It goes way beyond spares and its availabilty or lack of.

“Considerando que desde el comienzo de la explotación de las referidas aeronaves y de manera permanente, se han detectado, en una u otra aeronave indistintamente, la ocurrencia de fallos en sistemas complejos, formados por componentes mecánicos, eléctricos, hidráulicos, así como en algoritmos de trabajo de las computadores y bloques de control y medición de las aeronaves, en los cuales, el fabricante esta trabajando en ejecutar modificaciones, mejoras, ajustes y cambios en los programas de mantenimiento. Del mismo modo, existen evidencias de errores de diseño y fabricación en la estructura de estas aeronaves, tales como, serios problemas en el sistema de mando y controles y rajaduras en la cuaderna de fuerza número 18 de la aeronave CU-T1714."

There were also issues with the D-436 engines' temperatures over the last three months.

http://enelaire.mx/cubana-de-aviacion-d ... us-an-158/

It is rather ironic and sad that barely two weeks after Cubana had to ground the backbone of its domestic fleet and resort to chartering planes that this unfortunate accident happened.

I found extremely serious the part of that report saying "there is also evidence of mistakes in the design and manufacturing of this airframes like serious problems with the piloting and control system and cracks....". If this assertion is correct, and this aircraft type has design and manufacturing mistakes, then the problem is not limited to the Cubana's frames, but the entire An-158 fleet all over the world. It shoud be grounded worldwide.

Rgds.
G.

The AN-148/58 has had problems since day one. It is no secret that Rossiya dumped them a few months into service entry for similar reasons as Cubana; it is a piece of junk.

I believe the only airlines operating them are Air Koryo and Russia's Angara Airlines. Saratov Airlines suspended their use after the crash near Domodedovo and I am not certain whether or not they have resumed operations with the type. Other non airline users include the Russian Federation Air Force, the FSB (ex KGB), the Russian Ministry of Emergency Situations (EMERCOM), Rossiya's Special Flight Detachment and Antonov Design Bureau Airlines. Less than 50 were built,

Apprentice · Tue May 22, 2018 4:36 pm

Hi Gonzalo: soviet planes and spares, when received, was more on a political than economical trade. It was not and it is not”political correct” to speak loud against. For instance Yak -142 which Engines, D-36 (?) were submitted to a weekly boroscope check, till damaged compressor blades limits were reach, cause, if you do that inspections in Check 1, every 3 months +/-, As indicated, You have to remove eng some 2 months before, and with this rate of damages, no spares were available.

Now, in serious press: “El ingeniero Ernesto Rodríguez Martín, Inspector de Seguridad Operacional señala en un reporte parcial que “existen varios aspectos indefinidos en la actividad de esta Compañía (…) para asumir con suficiente seguridad, eficiencia y calidad el gran peso de nuestras operaciones”. Y en sus conclusiones presenta “como propuesta se tome el acuerdo de NO CONTRATAR bajo ningún concepto los servicios de esta Aerolínea”., Sorry, only in spanish but, basically that an engineer from safety department, recomended NO TO HIRE ANYMORE PLANES FROM THIS COMPANY, based on safety issues.....

Rgds

AR385 · Tue May 22, 2018 5:49 pm

It looks more and more like a flaps problem. Either not set correctly for T/O or not set at all.

TWA302 · Tue May 22, 2018 6:01 pm

dcajet wrote:
Mexico authorities have temporarily suspended Aerolineas Damojh DBA Global Airlines AOC while its operations are audited.

http://www.elmundo.es/internacional/201 ... b4808.html

Another story here about safety violations. From the article:
"The plane that crashed, a Boeing 737, was barred from Guyanese airspace last year after authorities discovered that its crew had been allowing dangerous overloading of luggage on flights to Cuba, Guyanese Civil Aviation Director Capt. Egbert Field told The Associated Press on Saturday."

Makes me wonder if besides PAX and their belongings, if they were carrying a large cargo load as well.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018/05/19/officials-say-the-mexican-company-whose-plane-crashed-in-havana-received-major-safety-complaints.html

Gonzalo · Tue May 22, 2018 6:35 pm

Thank you dcajet and Apprentice for your inputs and additional information Re: An-148.

AR385, you seem to have a hunch about the root cause of this crash. Would you mind to share with the rest of us the information that allows your assertion about the flaps? I know the LAPA crash was a consequence precisely of a flapless take off attempt, but I don't see how you can see anything similar here except the aircraft type and the sad result of the take off.
Rgds.
G.

AR385 · Tue May 22, 2018 6:50 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
Thank you dcajet and Apprentice for your inputs and additional information Re: An-148.

AR385, you seem to have a hunch about the root cause of this crash. Would you mind to share with the rest of us the information that allows your assertion about the flaps? I know the LAPA crash was a consequence precisely of a flapless take off attempt, but I don't see how you can see anything similar here except the aircraft type and the sad result of the take off.
Rgds.
G.

According to a professional witness, the plane left the ground but could not climb. Then the right wing dropped, and it slammed in the ground.

AR385 · Tue May 22, 2018 6:56 pm

AR385 wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
Thank you dcajet and Apprentice for your inputs and additional information Re: An-148.

AR385, you seem to have a hunch about the root cause of this crash. Would you mind to share with the rest of us the information that allows your assertion about the flaps? I know the LAPA crash was a consequence precisely of a flapless take off attempt, but I don't see how you can see anything similar here except the aircraft type and the sad result of the take off.
Rgds.
G.

According to a professional witness, the plane left the ground but could not climb. It just had the climb profile. Then the right wing dropped, and it slammed in the ground.

Aviano789 · Tue May 22, 2018 7:10 pm

AR385 wrote:
AR385 wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
Thank you dcajet and Apprentice for your inputs and additional information Re: An-148.

AR385, you seem to have a hunch about the root cause of this crash. Would you mind to share with the rest of us the information that allows your assertion about the flaps? I know the LAPA crash was a consequence precisely of a flapless take off attempt, but I don't see how you can see anything similar here except the aircraft type and the sad result of the take off.
Rgds.
G.

According to a professional witness, the plane left the ground but could not climb. It just had the climb profile. Then the right wing dropped, and it slammed in the ground.

No mention if Boeing the aircraft manufacture and US NTSB is heading down to Havana to spear-head the investigation.

Gonzalo · Tue May 22, 2018 7:15 pm

AR385 wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
Thank you dcajet and Apprentice for your inputs and additional information Re: An-148.

AR385, you seem to have a hunch about the root cause of this crash. Would you mind to share with the rest of us the information that allows your assertion about the flaps? I know the LAPA crash was a consequence precisely of a flapless take off attempt, but I don't see how you can see anything similar here except the aircraft type and the sad result of the take off.
Rgds.
G.

According to a professional witness, the plane left the ground but could not climb. Then the right wing dropped, and it slammed in the ground.

Hi AR385. Well the witness is certainly describing a scenario where the aircraft wasn’t configured for take off, but there are other situations where the behavior of the aircraft could be identical ( loss of one engine not managed properly by the crew, overweight, wind shear....the list isn’t short.
Didn’t hear anything about the FDR...did they find it?

TWA302 · Tue May 22, 2018 7:21 pm

Aviano789 wrote:
AR385 wrote:
AR385 wrote:

According to a professional witness, the plane left the ground but could not climb. It just had the climb profile. Then the right wing dropped, and it slammed in the ground.

No mention if Boeing the aircraft manufacture and US NTSB is heading down to Havana to spear-head the investigation.

This news report states that Boeing has been granted permission to assist in the investigation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBKv76YC4Q

WSJ also confirms. https://www.wsj.com/articles/cuban-authorities-identify-15-victims-of-fridays-deadly-plane-crash-1526839729

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