EK will now reduce their 4 pilot ULR ops to 3 man, due pilot shortage.

I needed one more piece of evidence to be convinced by a regular poster EmiratesDriver & now I’m a believer

EK are now dancing with fire and are willing, to in many pilots view, trade safety for profit.

Not good...and in my view a huge hole in the Cheese block.

Virtually every pilot I’ve chatted to has now become quite concerned at the latest developments.

33 aircraft parked @ DWC & counting , multiple media reports of shortage, FLL & MCO frequency increases cancelled.

Watch this space and let’s hope it’s not a headline.

You reap what you sow. I've zero sympathy for them. Years of malpractice and mistreatment has created a toxic atmosphere that even a 5 week bonus can't cut though.

They'll need Euro/America/Australasian bases. It's the only way they'll get people to go there. Yes, it'll add complexity but rather planes be flying and making money with a slightly higher cost base than sitting rotting away.

Crew bases in LON, FRA, MAD, NYC, LAX, DFW, HKG, SYD would be interesting.

Has this been verified anywhere?

sevenair wrote:

You reap what you sow. I've zero sympathy for them. Years of malpractice and mistreatment has created a toxic atmosphere that even a 5 week bonus can't cut though.

They'll need Euro/America/Australasian bases. It's the only way they'll get people to go there. Yes, it'll add complexity but rather planes be flying and making money with a slightly higher cost base than sitting rotting away.

Foreign crew bases alone may not be enough. A good number of people (pilots included) end up in the GCC on the notions of a company SUV, villa, year round sunshine, domestic staff, and no income tax. Popping up a crew base alone gets you little to none of that and could come at a considerable cost to EK. Then there's the labour law aspects of things: pilots could potentially create a stink beyond the reach of the UAE authorities for any number of things. I don't think the "weight in proportion to height" requirement applies to EK pilots as it does to many bodies of labour in the GCC but needless to say that would NEVER fly in Europe, the US, or Australia.

YOWza

Hmmm, so somebody will do more than 8-hour duty with only one spare pilot during a 16- hour flight?

mercure1 wrote:

Crew bases in LON, FRA, MAD, NYC, LAX, DFW, HKG, SYD would be interesting.

With the ammount of planes they send to the London Area per day (at least 9 with STN launching) i think it would be quite possible to have a London crew base. It would make rostering interesting but like mentioned would keep planes flying.

I think a shared crew base between MAN, BHX, LHR and LGW would even work. BA pilots commute via Train, car and air from all areas of the country to LHR. Only problem is they would have to play by british pilot rules.

Arion640 wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

Crew bases in LON, FRA, MAD, NYC, LAX, DFW, HKG, SYD would be interesting.

With the ammount of planes they send to the London Area per day (at least 9 with STN launching) i think it would be quite possible to have a London crew base. It would make rostering interesting but like mentioned would keep planes flying.

I think a shared crew base between MAN, BHX, LHR and LGW would even work. BA pilots commute via Train, car and air from all areas of the country to LHR. Only problem is they would have to play by british pilot rules.

I think that last sentence is the big trouble here, BALPA would give EK some serious headache.

Don't worry worldranger, 170 cadets putting hours on SR22s like crazy. They will be ready in no time to put every bird in the air.

I don’t think crew bases outside of the UAE will ever happen, EK is not willing to “lose” control of its employees like that, and even if crew bases were opened abroad, without a hefty raise in pay it’ll never work.
EK should definitely think about paying better wages or the exodus will continue.

trent772 wrote:

I don’t think crew bases outside of the UAE will ever happen, EK is not willing to “lose” control of its employees like that, and even if crew bases were opened abroad, without a hefty raise in pay it’ll never work.
EK should definitely think about paying better wages or the exodus will continue.

I think it's beyond paying better wages. What they have done (if I understand correctly) is paid pilots very well, and given them all the perks any pilot could dream of. And yet that's not enough. Corporate culture is what people would give up money for, and EK has not had the best of reputation in terms of treating its employees. With the growth of Chinese airlines (with competitive wages) and improved finances and prospects elsewhere, people look for better workplace environments and respect over just $s. This is bound to catch up to any organization that takes their employees for granted (and god knows how much is written up about EK online.)

Arion640 wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

Crew bases in LON, FRA, MAD, NYC, LAX, DFW, HKG, SYD would be interesting.

With the ammount of planes they send to the London Area per day (at least 9 with STN launching) i think it would be quite possible to have a London crew base. It would make rostering interesting but like mentioned would keep planes flying.

I think a shared crew base between MAN, BHX, LHR and LGW would even work. BA pilots commute via Train, car and air from all areas of the country to LHR. Only problem is they would have to play by british pilot rules.

One of the advantages they have had is the strict rules and work conditions they have instilled on their employees based on their local employment laws that are favorable to them, something they may not be able to institute elsewhere.

33 aircraft parked? I thought it was 11?

berari wrote:

I think it's beyond paying better wages. What they have done (if I understand correctly) is paid pilots very well, and given them all the perks any pilot could dream of.

This was true about seven or ten years ago, EK was once the dream job for many pilots but in recent years prices for everything have risen (skyrocketed) in Dubai while wages have remained stagnant, the tax free life many signed up for is not so free anymore, a 5% VAT was recently introduced along with some other hidden fees and another 150% tariff was imposed on crews bringing alcohol from layovers so forget about bringing that bottle of french wine.
The great salary that EK once paid its pilots is no more and that coupled with some very aggressive rostering has eroded the workforce’s loyalty to the point where almost everybody has an escape plan, it’s no wonder why their attrition levels are where they are.

They will be hiring in Brazil and rumors say it will be their biggest hiring process ever...

sevenair wrote:

You reap what you sow. I've zero sympathy for them. Years of malpractice and mistreatment has created a toxic atmosphere that even a 5 week bonus can't cut though.

They'll need Euro/America/Australasian bases. It's the only way they'll get people to go there. Yes, it'll add complexity but rather planes be flying and making money with a slightly higher cost base than sitting rotting away.

Kind of like how I enjoyed the hate United was getting after the Dao incident. Years and years of abuse against the people who keep you in business does no favors toward your PR. People are willing to look past the employment issues of the ME3 because they treat the paying customer well.

andrefranca wrote:

They will be hiring in Brazil and rumors say it will be their biggest hiring process ever...

Will be interesting to see how many new joiners they can attract.

QuarkFly wrote:

Hmmm, so somebody will do more than 8-hour duty with only one spare pilot during a 16- hour flight?

Yup, totally in line with what every Euro legacy carrier has been doing for years! 4 was luxury, 3 is economic reality!

mercure1 wrote:

Crew bases in LON, FRA, MAD, NYC, LAX, DFW, HKG, SYD would be interesting.

LAX and DFW have just one flight per day - would those bases make sense there? For LAX, I wonder how many crew members + pilots are SoCal transplants living in Dubai.

One of my colleagues used to work there as an A380 instructor and was happy down there for 10 years until a family member got seriously ill and my colleague requested additional time off which they wouldn't give him. That's when he left. Indeed you reap what you sow.

787Driver wrote:

One of my colleagues used to work there as an A380 instructor and was happy down there for 10 years until a family member got seriously ill and my colleague requested additional time off which they wouldn't give him. That's when he left. Indeed you reap what you sow.

I've got a worse story, close friend of mine at EK had his mother pass away - requested a week off to head back home and attend and organize the funeral. Received an email from scheduling manager saying "Suck it up Princess you mother would be ashamed of you for being so rude to your employer" - this was recent and I have seen the email.

log0008 wrote:

787Driver wrote:

One of my colleagues used to work there as an A380 instructor and was happy down there for 10 years until a family member got seriously ill and my colleague requested additional time off which they wouldn't give him. That's when he left. Indeed you reap what you sow.

I've got a worse story, close friend of mine at EK had his mother pass away - requested a week off to head back home and attend and organize the funeral. Received an email from scheduling manager saying "Suck it up Princess you mother would be ashamed of you for being so rude to your employer" - this was recent and I have seen the email.

That is dreadful and definitely not the way to treat any staff - let alone a key staff member like a pilot.

StTim wrote:

log0008 wrote:

787Driver wrote:

One of my colleagues used to work there as an A380 instructor and was happy down there for 10 years until a family member got seriously ill and my colleague requested additional time off which they wouldn't give him. That's when he left. Indeed you reap what you sow.

I've got a worse story, close friend of mine at EK had his mother pass away - requested a week off to head back home and attend and organize the funeral. Received an email from scheduling manager saying "Suck it up Princess you mother would be ashamed of you for being so rude to your employer" - this was recent and I have seen the email.

That is dreadful and definitely not the way to treat any staff - let alone a key staff member like a pilot.

I have heard that the staffer was sacked but the pilot still resigned. I think part of the issue is that a number of EK's senior staff especially in HR have experience in the construction industry in Dubai where foreign workers - especially from India are treated shockingly

worldranger wrote:

EK will now reduce their 4 pilot ULR ops to 3 man, due pilot shortage.

I needed one more piece of evidence to be convinced by a regular poster EmiratesDriver & now I’m a believer

EK are now dancing with fire and are willing, to in many pilots view, trade safety for profit.

Not good...and in my view a huge hole in the Cheese block.

Virtually every pilot I’ve chatted to has now become quite concerned at the latest developments.

33 aircraft parked @ DWC & counting , multiple media reports of shortage, FLL & MCO frequency increases cancelled.

Watch this space and let’s hope it’s not a headline.

To say I'm annoyed at the moment, is an understatement at this latest "enhancement"

I will also add that many of the options spoken about on this thread regarding basings, commuting rosters and reverse rostering have been presented to upper management over the years, they have been shown to be more sustainable and either 0 cost or cheaper, in every instance they have been rejected out of hand due to the prevailing culture and mindset of present management.
The mantra of control, paranoia and dogma is strong within the ME culture, it now appears that in EKs' case it is preferable to deal with the lack of pilots by reducing safety margins and pushing pilots harder rather than accepting that mistakes have been made and making earnest and transparent efforts to rectify the situation.
The bigger picture here is the continued policy of localisation where UAE nationals are being placed in positions of responsibility with little or no experience, poor work ethics and of course an unaccountable mindest where mistakes and oversights are ignored, covered up or deflected to another non-national employee.
All of this continues to erode the experience of being an EK employee, pilots in particular have made significant concessions along the way, this week 12 of them decided that enough is enough and have issued resignations.

Interestingly 2017-18 PR spending went up, the single useless expenditure not yielding any results, but not able to keep crew happy.

worldranger wrote:

33 aircraft parked @ DWC & counting

33?!

Someone posted the planned parking numbers and I see on my screenshot that May was supposed to be 20 airplanes.

If it's really 33 and counting, the poop has hit the fan big time.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Interestingly 2017-18 PR spending went up, the single useless expenditure not yielding any results, but not able to keep crew happy.

as always, but anyway...….. as did profits by a considerable margin, so the PR must be archiving something!

cougar15 wrote:

...as did profits by a considerable margin...

Trump says "no collusion, trust me" five times a day, nobody does. EK shows profits every year, along with PR claims to trust them because reports are audited by a brand name auditor. Both are in the same boat.

so the PR must be archiving something!

Brand value went down by 12%, even bloggers (who generally write good things for free food) are writing bad things. It appears even their social media team based in some third world country.

What is this thread actually about? Let's put the title aside. That's what got me interested. But the more I read the more I think it's in danger of becoming a vent machine.

A few more facts would be helpful. Do we know precisely the parameters of the announcement? For example, is it really 3 pilots for routes like DXB-AKL which can have a sector time of 17+ hours? Or is it a re alignment of some routes to within margins acceptable to many other 4* and 5*airlines? I think it would be helpful to see a little more in-depth analysis before we get our proverbial knickers in a tangle.

NZ321 wrote:

What is this thread actually about? Let's put the title aside. That's what got me interested. But the more I read the more I think it's in danger of becoming a vent machine.

A few more facts would be helpful. Do we know precisely the parameters of the announcement? For example, is it really 3 pilots for routes like DXB-AKL which can have a sector time of 17+ hours? Or is it a re alignment of some routes to within margins acceptable to many other 4* and 5*airlines? I think it would be helpful to see a little more in-depth analysis before we get our proverbial knickers in a tangle.

Alleged rumor suggests the airline got approval from regulator to go with 3-person flight crew to JFK, BOS,SYD,MEL,GIG and GRU from July '18.

This has nothing to SkyTrax stars, it is a safety and lack of regulatory oversight issue.

Safety and lack of regulatory oversight according to? Where does this "rumour" come from?

EK operates under Dubai CAA, and therefore have to comply with Dubai rules so if Dubai says they can operate long flights with three pilots they can.
Does amybody know if Dubai has adopted the whole EASA package as the basis for their own rules? If so EK has to operate to the same rules as their main competitors

NZ321 wrote:

What is this thread actually about? Let's put the title aside. That's what got me interested. But the more I read the more I think it's in danger of becoming a vent machine.

A few more facts would be helpful. Do we know precisely the parameters of the announcement? For example, is it really 3 pilots for routes like DXB-AKL which can have a sector time of 17+ hours? Or is it a re alignment of some routes to within margins acceptable to many other 4* and 5*airlines? I think it would be helpful to see a little more in-depth analysis before we get our proverbial knickers in a tangle.

SYD 414/415
MEL 408/409
JFK 201/202
EWR 223/224
BOS 237/238
GIG 247/248
GRU261/262

All confirmed now 3man.

I’d be interested to know if any other carriers operate these sector lengths with 3man crew.

emiratesdriver wrote:

NZ321 wrote:

What is this thread actually about? Let's put the title aside. That's what got me interested. But the more I read the more I think it's in danger of becoming a vent machine.

A few more facts would be helpful. Do we know precisely the parameters of the announcement? For example, is it really 3 pilots for routes like DXB-AKL which can have a sector time of 17+ hours? Or is it a re alignment of some routes to within margins acceptable to many other 4* and 5*airlines? I think it would be helpful to see a little more in-depth analysis before we get our proverbial knickers in a tangle.

“From 1 July the following seven pairings will be operated with a flight crew complement of 3:
SYD 414/415
MEL 408/409
JFK 201/202
EWR 223/224
BOS 237/238
GIG 247/248
GRU 261/262”

Straight off the Flight Ops update as of yesterday, it’s no rumour, it’s fact, it is also in my opinion a significant erosion of safety.
The reason this is being highlighted is that whilst there are a lot of EK fanboys on here, a great many have no clue as to what is going on behind the scenes.
I wonder how many passengers will be comfortable with 3 crew operating operating a 14 hr sector with a 2.30am takeoff, arriving at 10.30pm, having 26hrs rest and operating a 15 hr sector back with a 4am wake up after most likely being unable to achieve more than 8 hrs rest in those preceding 26. That would be EK 414/415.
Doing all this as part of a 100 hr flying month with a mix of east and west flying, one word, dangerous.

EK operates under the GCAA not Dubai anything.. Dubai has an Airport authority ( DAA)

14-15 hour sectors with 3 pilot means that each pilot is working 10 hours at the commands and each getting 4-5 hours of rest within a 15 hour sector.
Add in transfers to and from hotel and home and you're basically going to get only 4-5 hours of rest within the 24 hours between leaving home and checking into a hotel.
You do this 7 times a month with trainings scheduled in between and hopefully you are sleeping right up to the moment that you are leaving to the airport.
Welcome to modern day slavery. For young lads in their 20`s that's survivable. For old farts in their 40`s or older, that's suicide.
If you accept that, you are idiots. You won't make it to retirement age. If not in an accident, you'll die from a heart attack or cancer.
If you accept this, you are accomplices to the safety issue. When I didn't like the safety culture within the airline worked for, I quit and changed sectors. Now making more than what I would have made in aviation, without the hassle of juggling safety considerations together with financial considerations.

emiratesdriver wrote:

emiratesdriver wrote:

NZ321 wrote:

What is this thread actually about? Let's put the title aside. That's what got me interested. But the more I read the more I think it's in danger of becoming a vent machine.

A few more facts would be helpful. Do we know precisely the parameters of the announcement? For example, is it really 3 pilots for routes like DXB-AKL which can have a sector time of 17+ hours? Or is it a re alignment of some routes to within margins acceptable to many other 4* and 5*airlines? I think it would be helpful to see a little more in-depth analysis before we get our proverbial knickers in a tangle.

“From 1 July the following seven pairings will be operated with a flight crew complement of 3:
SYD 414/415
MEL 408/409
JFK 201/202
EWR 223/224
BOS 237/238
GIG 247/248
GRU 261/262”

Straight off the Flight Ops update as of yesterday, it’s no rumour, it’s fact, it is also in my opinion a significant erosion of safety.
The reason this is being highlighted is that whilst there are a lot of EK fanboys on here, a great many have no clue as to what is going on behind the scenes.
I wonder how many passengers will be comfortable with 3 crew operating operating a 14 hr sector with a 2.30am takeoff, arriving at 10.30pm, having 26hrs rest and operating a 15 hr sector back with a 4am wake up after most likely being unable to achieve more than 8 hrs rest in those preceding 26. That would be EK 414/415.
Doing all this as part of a 100 hr flying month with a mix of east and west flying, one word, dangerous.

That looks like the big one will be going down one day, very scary. When you factor in time changes, dust storms in DXB, heavy air traffic in SYD or the NYC area with this kind of fatigue it seems only a matter of time.I think I will pay a little more and avoid the Gulf.

Fatbus wrote:

EK operates under the GCAA not Dubai anything..

PR will remind you that GCAA has the highest ICAO USOAP score in the world. UAE almost bagged ICAO chairperson position.

So keep singing "Everything is awesome" until "Nearer My God to Thee"

Trending

https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com ... T+Facebook

mercure1 wrote:

Crew bases in LON, FRA, MAD, NYC, LAX, DFW, HKG, SYD would be interesting.

Yepp, I'd love to see AAR dealing with VC

JFK low on approach close call. Moscow low on approach close call. It’s just a matter of time. When you scratch a lions balls with a short stick........

emiratesdriver wrote:

emiratesdriver wrote:

NZ321 wrote:

What is this thread actually about? Let's put the title aside. That's what got me interested. But the more I read the more I think it's in danger of becoming a vent machine.

A few more facts would be helpful. Do we know precisely the parameters of the announcement? For example, is it really 3 pilots for routes like DXB-AKL which can have a sector time of 17+ hours? Or is it a re alignment of some routes to within margins acceptable to many other 4* and 5*airlines? I think it would be helpful to see a little more in-depth analysis before we get our proverbial knickers in a tangle.

“From 1 July the following seven pairings will be operated with a flight crew complement of 3:
SYD 414/415
MEL 408/409
JFK 201/202
EWR 223/224
BOS 237/238
GIG 247/248
GRU 261/262”

Straight off the Flight Ops update as of yesterday, it’s no rumour, it’s fact, it is also in my opinion a significant erosion of safety.
The reason this is being highlighted is that whilst there are a lot of EK fanboys on here, a great many have no clue as to what is going on behind the scenes.
I wonder how many passengers will be comfortable with 3 crew operating operating a 14 hr sector with a 2.30am takeoff, arriving at 10.30pm, having 26hrs rest and operating a 15 hr sector back with a 4am wake up after most likely being unable to achieve more than 8 hrs rest in those preceding 26. That would be EK 414/415.
Doing all this as part of a 100 hr flying month with a mix of east and west flying, one word, dangerous.

And that's only the trial period. More to come..... And VORSY is no option.

Out of interest why are EK408/409 and EK414/415 going to three crew but EK406/407, EK412/413, EK416/417 and EK434/435 staying as four crew?

To be clear I am not in favour of these routes becoming three crew operations, but am confused about the lack of consistency.

EK412 needs a 4-man crew because two will continue onto the CHC sector the next day.

log0008 wrote:

787Driver wrote:

One of my colleagues used to work there as an A380 instructor and was happy down there for 10 years until a family member got seriously ill and my colleague requested additional time off which they wouldn't give him. That's when he left. Indeed you reap what you sow.

I've got a worse story, close friend of mine at EK had his mother pass away - requested a week off to head back home and attend and organize the funeral. Received an email from scheduling manager saying "Suck it up Princess you mother would be ashamed of you for being so rude to your employer" - this was recent and I have seen the email.

Would be funny if all foreign pilots quit EK at the same time, or if all foreign workers left the UAE. We know what the result would be. I bet the mothers of the rulers there would be so proud of their tough children. For a country that depends on foreign workers, to do both the skilled work that their nationals can't do and the unskilled work that they don't want to do, they sure treat their workforce interestingly. As others pointed out, will be interesting to see how the growth of aviation in other areas affects technical staff retention at airlines like EK.

most guys I know are filling the two buckets ! Which ever one fills the first , fir me it was the money one! 16 years ago great job great location , now horrible both !

This is a BIG deal.

You don't cut corners by directly deducting sleep from pilots in long haul operations and expect things to just work out.

If this is how emirates is going to run things, they have no place in the business.

Running an operation on hope & coffee isn't how it's done, no matter how badly they are obviously struggling these days, with 33+ jets apparently now parked due to their self-inflicted pilot staffing crisis.

Ridiculous garbage operation asking for problems (and they've already had plenty).

Just curious what’s the pilot numbers for similar sectors with EY? Few times I’ve seen them in SYD airport I only noticed three pilots.

Are there other airlines around the world flying long sectors with 3 pilots ?

cougar15 wrote:

QuarkFly wrote:

Hmmm, so somebody will do more than 8-hour duty with only one spare pilot during a 16- hour flight?

Yup, totally in line with what every Euro legacy carrier has been doing for years! 4 was luxury, 3 is economic reality!

Yeah, this has been happening forever for Euro and, I think, US carriers.

What is the difference, why is it outrageous of ME carriers but not the others? Are EK sectors longer than what AA, BA, AF, etc have? At least they’ve got modern equipment (as do most Euro legacies, of course...).

Bad policies and maltreatment of staff is, of course, unforgiveable, and I hope ppl working there will demand their rights or leave. If the stories here truelly are just the tip of the iceberg, as usually happens, I smell more trbl ahead for EK. Pilot market has turned around quick, what used to be a moderate surplus has now become a shortage. And the aviation press has been sounding warning signs to the effect that candidates are not in abundance any more. Surprise, surprise, a profession in aviation is no longer as lucrative as it used to be.

I wonder why....

777Jet wrote:

For a country that depends on foreign workers, to do both the skilled work that their nationals can't do and the unskilled work that they don't want to do, they sure treat their workforce interestingly.

As long as there is enough people attracted by "fabulous & tax-free lifestyle" in Dubai and don't want to see the medieval mentality running the system and enough passengers fooled by Skytrax stars, there's no need to change anything.