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Mortyman
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EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 4:36 pm

EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker announced that the bloc plans to kickstart a 1996 law that would prohibit European companies for complying with US sanctions on Iran.


European Union Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker announced Thursday that the bloc plans to reactivate a law that would seek to block European companies from complying with any sanctions the US would reintroduce against Iran.

- In Thursday's announcement, Juncker said: "As the European Commission we have the duty to protect European companies. We now need to act and this is why we are launching the process of to activate the 'blocking statute' from 1996."

- Juncker said that the law would be launched Friday morning at 10:30 a.m. local time (0700 GMT).

- He added that European leaders "also decided to allow the European Investment Bank to facilitate European companies' investment in Iran" and said the Commission would continue to cooperate with Iran.


http://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-reactivate-b ... a-43826992
 
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KICT
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 4:45 pm

Good.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 4:56 pm

KICT wrote:
Good.

Yes....but how will it work in practice? Abide by the sanctions and the EU will punish you. Don't abide by them and the US will punish you. Seems that many companies will end up between a rock and a hard place.
 
mildaiv
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 4:58 pm

This will not afect Airbus. As it have parts manufactured in the USA, it is USA right to block export to Iran. It afect firms, that follow US laws on EU soil. Ie firm that block exporting goods manufactured outside US to Iran.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 5:18 pm

Hardly helps Airbus, as US components still cant be exported to Iran.

Its more for European companies to continue doing their limited biz in Iran as they did previously during sanction periods. Though obviously companies will have to weigh if its even worth it with potential subsequent loss of access to US markets in return.
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gatibosgru
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 5:51 pm

Sad it has to come to this.
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Revelation
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 5:56 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran ... SKCN1II17K says:

The EU’s so-called blocking statute bans any EU company from complying with U.S. sanctions and does not recognize any court rulings that enforce American penalties.

But it has never been used and is seen by European governments more as a political weapon than a regulation because its rules are vague and difficult to enforce, serving mainly as a warning to the United States.

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Jayafe
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 6:21 pm

And so it begins :weightlifter:
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 6:39 pm

Total SA depends on American banks so they are pulling out of Iran.


That is how it will work in spite of the EU
Last edited by WaywardMemphian on Thu May 17, 2018 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 6:42 pm

Total SA depends on American banks so they are pulling out of Iran.


That is how it will work in spite of the EU.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 6:47 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
KICT wrote:
Good.

Yes....but how will it work in practice? Abide by the sanctions and the EU will punish you. Don't abide by them and the US will punish you. Seems that many companies will end up between a rock and a hard place.


That might be the point, to push the USA against a wall. I have to wonder if overflight to TLV might also be held in the balance, which could collapse LY.
 
olle
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 7:47 pm

EU also agreed to financing for companies exporting to Iran. I see many A380 seconf hand going to Iran.
 
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 7:50 pm

olle wrote:
EU also agreed to financing for companies exporting to Iran. I see many A380 seconf hand going to Iran.

IR didn’t even want the A380 new saying they were not ready for a plane that size yet, and that their initial inclusion in the LOI/MOU/whatever was because of politics. I don’t think 2nd hand ones would be their first choice of planes. It would be A320/A330s mostly.
 
727200
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 7:54 pm

Not going to be easy to get parts or even planes for the AB equipment. Limited banking and financing is going to put a major crimp in Iran's life style.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:04 pm

727200 wrote:
Not going to be easy to get parts or even planes for the AB equipment. Limited banking and financing is going to put a major crimp in Iran's life style.

But that is the point....your comment is from a US point of view. Europe, too, has banks that can give credit to Iran... :roll:
And if US companies stop supplying parts to Airbus, European companies would be forced to stop supplying parts to Boeing. And both sides lose. This is why this whole thing is such brainless a manoeuvre...
Last edited by MalevTU134 on Thu May 17, 2018 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:08 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Not going to be easy to get parts or even planes for the AB equipment. Limited banking and financing is going to put a major crimp in Iran's life style.

But that is the point....your comment is from a US point if view. Europe, too, has banks that can give credit to Iran... :roll:
And if US companies stop supplying parts to Airbus, European companies would be forced to stop supplying parts to Boeing. And both sides lose. This is why this whole thing is such a brainless a manoeuvre...

But the EU can’t stop the US from preventing EU banks and companies that do business with Iran from doing business with the US. That is why the gesture is seen more as symbolic instead of something real and easy to enforce.

EU companies may have to decide between doing business in Iran or doing business in the US. Many will choose the US even if the EU backs them in business with Iran. The EU can’t force private companies to work with Iran.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:29 pm

Polot wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Not going to be easy to get parts or even planes for the AB equipment. Limited banking and financing is going to put a major crimp in Iran's life style.

But that is the point....your comment is from a US point if view. Europe, too, has banks that can give credit to Iran... :roll:
And if US companies stop supplying parts to Airbus, European companies would be forced to stop supplying parts to Boeing. And both sides lose. This is why this whole thing is such a brainless a manoeuvre...

But the EU can’t stop the US from preventing EU banks and companies that do business with Iran from doing business with the US. That is why the gesture is seen more as symbolic instead of something real and easy to enforce.

EU companies may have to decide between doing business in Iran or doing business in the US. Many will choose the US even if the EU backs them in business with Iran. The EU can’t force private companies to work with Iran.

I guess my point was that if the US starts to sanction EU banks (to use your example, but this reasoning is valid for any kind of business) for no good reason (from a EU point of view), then the EU will of course retaliate against US banks with the same coin, leading to a trade war. So both sides lose.
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:41 pm

Well since apparently Trump sees himself as a deal maker it'll be interesting to see what the eventual deal (fudge, bodge, whatever you want to call it) turns out to be. :mischievous:
 
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Loew
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:42 pm

You can read the "blocking statute" here:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 71:EN:HTML

Here are few interesting bits:

This Regulation provides protection against and counteracts the effects of the extra-territorial application of the laws specified in the Annex of this Regulation, including regulations and other legislative instruments, and of actions based thereon or resulting therefrom, where such application affects the interests of persons, referred to in Article 11, engaging in international trade and/or the movement of capital and related commercial activities between the Community and third countries.

No person referred to in Article 11 shall comply, whether directly or through a subsidiary or other intermediary person, actively or by deliberate omission, with any requirement or prohibition, including requests of foreign courts, based on or resulting, directly or indirectly, from the laws specified in the Annex or from actions based thereon or resulting therefrom.

Any person referred to in Article 11, who is engaging in an activity referred to in Article 1 shall be entitled to recover any damages, including legal costs, caused to that person by the application of the laws specified in the Annex or by actions based thereon or resulting therefrom. Such recovery may be obtained from the natural or legal person or any other entity causing the damages or from any person acting on its behalf or intermediary.

Each Member State shall determine the sanctions to be imposed in the event of breach of any relevant provisions of this Regulation. Such sanctions must be effective, proportional and dissuasive.

We are in for some interesting times...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:43 pm

Interesting and strong message to the Trump administration. We will see how America will react.
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mercure1
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:44 pm

Our EU lawmakers can make whatever declarations they desire, but does not stop fact that neither US parts can be exported to Iran, nor that private business will have to choose doing business with Iran or the US. For most its not a choice at all.

MalevTU134 wrote:
I guess my point was that if the US starts to sanction EU banks (to use your example, but this reasoning is valid for any kind of business) for no good reason (from a EU point of view), then the EU will of course retaliate against US banks with the same coin, leading to a trade war. So both sides lose.


Europe is not going to fall on a sword just to do business with Iran, even to score a political point.

At the end of the day, US is countless times more important than Iran.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:49 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Polot wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
But that is the point....your comment is from a US point if view. Europe, too, has banks that can give credit to Iran... :roll:
And if US companies stop supplying parts to Airbus, European companies would be forced to stop supplying parts to Boeing. And both sides lose. This is why this whole thing is such a brainless a manoeuvre...

But the EU can’t stop the US from preventing EU banks and companies that do business with Iran from doing business with the US. That is why the gesture is seen more as symbolic instead of something real and easy to enforce.

EU companies may have to decide between doing business in Iran or doing business in the US. Many will choose the US even if the EU backs them in business with Iran. The EU can’t force private companies to work with Iran.

I guess my point was that if the US starts to sanction EU banks (to use your example, but this reasoning is valid for any kind of business) for no good reason (from a EU point of view), then the EU will of course retaliate against US banks with the same coin, leading to a trade war. So both sides lose.


Except that U.S. banks wouldn't be violating any European sanctions outside of this "blocking" statute, and the EU was part of the original Iran sanctions regime before the nuclear deal, so it wouldn't make much sense and there certainly wouldn't be any gain from retaliating againstU.S. banks.. The U.S. is dominant in global investment banking, EU investments in the U.S. are larger than their investments in all of Asia combined, and the EU and US are responsible for half of global GDP. The EU isn't going to burn down relationships with U.S. banks simply over Iran. There is a reason why this statute wasn't meaningfully exercised before, it isn't worth it for EU business.
Last edited by WkndWanderer on Thu May 17, 2018 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Blerg
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:53 pm

Maybe this is a warning to the US to not block the sale of Airbus to Iran.

It was also reported that the EU will drop the Dollar in favor of the Euro when buying Iranian oil.
 
YIMBY
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:53 pm

mildaiv wrote:
This will not afect Airbus. As it have parts manufactured in the USA, it is USA right to block export to Iran. It afect firms, that follow US laws on EU soil. Ie firm that block exporting goods manufactured outside US to Iran.


EU said that they will retaliate if US puts any sanctions to European companies: https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-to-launch-law-for-blocking-iran-sanctions-on-friday/. They do not say explicitly, but certainly Airbus is the darling of the governments.

Every European newspaper that I read (surely I am biased to read certain newspapers) touts how Trump has humiliated May, Macron, Merkel an Mogherini, see e.g. the Guardian article quoted previously. Cartoons are showing Trump stepping over European leaders (Politico seems to make a nice compilation every Saturday). If they do not retaliate, they lose their faces, and next elections. Words like vassal and lackey have already been used.

May has the most sensitive case, as the British people have voted for their 'independence' and they just cannot take orders from Trump when they just have refused to take rules from EU. Merkel is probably most angry and Macron has most to lose.

I do not think anyone wants escalation, being at the verge of a trade war, but it is now up to the US to retreat. I guess that Trump just keeps symbolically his promise to terminate the agreement and sanctions American companies doing direct trade with Iran but refrains from putting any sanction to European companies or American companies selling components to European companies.

In the best case Airbus continues business as usual, in the worst case neither Airbus nor Boeing can continue. I am not sure if there is any case in the middle.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 8:55 pm

So we don't like China, EU, Japan, South Korea, Pakistan, Iran, Mexico, and Canada, at the point of picking a fight with Great Britain. And they are all going to help us with North Korea.
Last edited by frmrCapCadet on Thu May 17, 2018 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Blerg
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 9:01 pm

Washington just keeps on adding more oil to the fire.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... e-proceeds
 
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Jayafe
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 9:22 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
...so it wouldn't make much sense and there certainly wouldn't be any gain from retaliating againstU.S. banks.. The U.S. is dominant in global investment banking, EU investments in the U.S. are larger than their investments in all of Asia combined, and the EU and US are responsible for half of global GDP. The EU isn't going to burn down relationships with U.S. banks simply over Iran. There is a reason why this statute wasn't meaningfully exercised before, it isn't worth it for EU business.


And that's how extortion is defined.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
So we don't like China, EU, Japan, South Korea, Pakistan, Iran, Mexico, and Canada, at the point of picking a fight with Great Britain. And they are all going to help us with North Korea.


The US doesn't need help with NK, everything seems to be quite under control in the race for the noble price:

Trump's warning to Kim Jong-un: make a deal or suffer same fate as Gaddafi
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... un-gaddafi
 
SC430
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 9:39 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Our EU lawmakers can make whatever declarations they desire, but does not stop fact that neither US parts can be exported to Iran, nor that private business will have to choose doing business with Iran or the US. For most its not a choice at all.

MalevTU134 wrote:
I guess my point was that if the US starts to sanction EU banks (to use your example, but this reasoning is valid for any kind of business) for no good reason (from a EU point of view), then the EU will of course retaliate against US banks with the same coin, leading to a trade war. So both sides lose.


Europe is not going to fall on a sword just to do business with Iran, even to score a political point.

At the end of the day, US is countless times more important than Iran.


Well said. With 7,000 + planes in backlog Airbus does not need to get in a fight defending a half baked order to Iran. Why risk having any supply interruptions when they need to increase deliveries. Trump may have started it but there is every opportunity for the Euros to make a mountain out of a molehill - they should try not to. If war occurs between Israel and Iran those new Airbus's will be cannon fodder for Israeli pilots.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 9:43 pm

Jayafe wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
...so it wouldn't make much sense and there certainly wouldn't be any gain from retaliating againstU.S. banks.. The U.S. is dominant in global investment banking, EU investments in the U.S. are larger than their investments in all of Asia combined, and the EU and US are responsible for half of global GDP. The EU isn't going to burn down relationships with U.S. banks simply over Iran. There is a reason why this statute wasn't meaningfully exercised before, it isn't worth it for EU business.


And that's how extortion is defined.



It isn't extortion, it's the rational decision to be made as a result of decades of trade flows between the U.S. and Europe and the development of the global banking sector. If you're acting in your best interests, you aren't going to burn down your own house and farm just so that you can go live in a new garden shed with a couple dandelions.
 
SelseyBill
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 9:56 pm

Polot wrote:
EU companies may have to decide between doing business in Iran or doing business in the US. Many will choose the US even if the EU backs them in business with Iran. The EU can’t force private companies to work with Iran.


.....so this presumably this applies to aviation services too then ?

Will BA for example have choose between flying to Tehran or two-dozen airports in the USA ?

Will BA get sanctioned for selling Tehran-LAX via LHR ?

Looks similar to the deal years ago where European carriers had separate 'companies' flying to Taiwan because China didn't like anyone doing business with Taipei.......
 
mjoelnir
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 10:08 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
...so it wouldn't make much sense and there certainly wouldn't be any gain from retaliating againstU.S. banks.. The U.S. is dominant in global investment banking, EU investments in the U.S. are larger than their investments in all of Asia combined, and the EU and US are responsible for half of global GDP. The EU isn't going to burn down relationships with U.S. banks simply over Iran. There is a reason why this statute wasn't meaningfully exercised before, it isn't worth it for EU business.


And that's how extortion is defined.



It isn't extortion, it's the rational decision to be made as a result of decades of trade flows between the U.S. and Europe and the development of the global banking sector. If you're acting in your best interests, you aren't going to burn down your own house and farm just so that you can go live in a new garden shed with a couple dandelions.


But you accept that the US is burning down the house.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 10:32 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
Jayafe wrote:

And that's how extortion is defined.



It isn't extortion, it's the rational decision to be made as a result of decades of trade flows between the U.S. and Europe and the development of the global banking sector. If you're acting in your best interests, you aren't going to burn down your own house and farm just so that you can go live in a new garden shed with a couple dandelions.


But you accept that the US is burning down the house.


The "you wouldn't burn down your house and farm to live in a garden shed with dandelions" comparison was in reference to the options that established EU businesses will be faced with in the event of reimposed US sanctions on Iran, not about Trump's decision to blow up the deal. EU businesses aren't going to jeopardize their relationships with the U.S. over Iran, it wouldn't even be close to worth it. Like mercure1 said, when it comes to preserving relationships, "At the end of the day, US is countless times more important than Iran." The Trump administration of course has initiated this whole ball of mess, created this wedge in the first place, dinged U.S. global credibility, and probably fecklessly accelerated the likelihood Iran develops a nuclear weapon in the next 10-15 year period which the deal had previously staved off. In that sense then yes, the U.S. certainly lit the farm on fire, but unfortunately we've already been doing that in a variety of areas in an incoherent series of fits, starts, and reversals for the past 14 months now.
 
Etheereal
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 10:42 pm

SC430 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Our EU lawmakers can make whatever declarations they desire, but does not stop fact that neither US parts can be exported to Iran, nor that private business will have to choose doing business with Iran or the US. For most its not a choice at all.

MalevTU134 wrote:
I guess my point was that if the US starts to sanction EU banks (to use your example, but this reasoning is valid for any kind of business) for no good reason (from a EU point of view), then the EU will of course retaliate against US banks with the same coin, leading to a trade war. So both sides lose.


Europe is not going to fall on a sword just to do business with Iran, even to score a political point.

At the end of the day, US is countless times more important than Iran.


Well said. With 7,000 + planes in backlog Airbus does not need to get in a fight defending a half baked order to Iran. Why risk having any supply interruptions when they need to increase deliveries. Trump may have started it but there is every opportunity for the Euros to make a mountain out of a molehill - they should try not to. If war occurs between Israel and Iran those new Airbus's will be cannon fodder for Israeli pilots.

Well that wouldnt surprise me.
 
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Aesma
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 10:55 pm

Another farm that is lit up is the new impetus to diminish those ties to the US you just described. Is there still a good reason why so many things are denominated in dollars ? Why should US banks be so involved in EU economies if EU banks are screwed by the US every chance they get (last time was over Iran, too) ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Ruscoe
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 11:17 pm

There is no morality in international politics.

Ruscoe
 
bob75013
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 11:41 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
[... and probably fecklessly accelerated the likelihood Iran develops a nuclear weapon in the next 10-15 year period which the deal had previously staved off. .


The original Iran deal went into effect in 2015. It was a 10 year deal that allows Iran to restart it's nuclear program in 7 years. That's Trump's objection. He want's a permanent ban.
 
seb146
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 11:44 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Europe is not going to fall on a sword just to do business with Iran, even to score a political point.

At the end of the day, US is countless times more important than Iran.


Sanctions will go to not only EU but China and Russia because all will be doing business with Iran. It looks like the United States will be left behind and the rest of the world will be trading amongst themselves because Obama needs to be erased from history. It is the simple truth behind what MAGA and "take back my country" mean. Jobs going to China (tRump did this himself) and EU and Russia. But, somehow, that makes America great???
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
seb146
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 11:45 pm

bob75013 wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
[... and probably fecklessly accelerated the likelihood Iran develops a nuclear weapon in the next 10-15 year period which the deal had previously staved off. .


The original Iran deal went into effect in 2015. It was a 10 year deal that allows Iran to restart it's nuclear program in 7 years. That's Trump's objection. He want's a permanent ban.


So why cancel the deal altogether? Why not just go to the other signers of the treaty and renegotiate? Also, why are Saudi Arabia and Israel and Pakistan and India allowed to have nukes but Iran is not?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
bob75013
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 11:51 pm

seb146 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
[... and probably fecklessly accelerated the likelihood Iran develops a nuclear weapon in the next 10-15 year period which the deal had previously staved off. .


The original Iran deal went into effect in 2015. It was a 10 year deal that allows Iran to restart it's nuclear program in 7 years. That's Trump's objection. He want's a permanent ban.


So why cancel the deal altogether? Why not just go to the other signers of the treaty and renegotiate? Also, why are Saudi Arabia and Israel and Pakistan and India allowed to have nukes but Iran is not?


Answer: because Iran has no reason to negotiate for 7+ years or maybe ever. It's got it's money. It's got it's trade. Why should it negotiate? Because it want's to play nice?. Now potentially, it has nothing, and a reason to negotiate..
 
bob75013
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Thu May 17, 2018 11:58 pm

seb146 wrote:
[ Also, why are Saudi Arabia and Israel and Pakistan and India allowed to have nukes but Iran is not?


Well Saudi Arabia has said it will get nukes if Iran gets them. It doesn't have them yet.

The fact of the matter is that the more countries that get nukes, the more likely the world will find one of them crazy enough to actually fire off one of those suckers.
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 211
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Fri May 18, 2018 12:00 am

bob75013 wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
[... and probably fecklessly accelerated the likelihood Iran develops a nuclear weapon in the next 10-15 year period which the deal had previously staved off. .


The original Iran deal went into effect in 2015. It was a 10 year deal that allows Iran to restart it's nuclear program in 7 years. That's Trump's objection. He want's a permanent ban.


The deal restricted the Iranian's ability to have any meaningful amount of weapons grade uranium for 15 years, and limited their abilities to enrich any uranium at all for 10 years. Of course Trump wants a permanent ban, from a "want" standpoint every major western power wanted a permanent ban in an ideal world and had for years. The problem was that if the west didn't want Iran to have nuclear weapons in the near term, which was rapidly approaching on the horizon, it was either going to have to come up with some agreement that prevented that in exchange for incentivizing the Iranians to do so, or the west was going to have to engage in military action to prevent it, and there wasn't sufficient political, financial, or popular support for the latter. In spite of its trade offs for all sides, the JCPA at least had prevented an imminent nuclear Iran or a war to prevent it for at least a decade+ and is now having the teeth pulled out of it, but now the stifling international sanctions regiment that had taken five years to put together with global partners and was the leverage to force the Iranians to the table in the first place has fractured. It's all well and good to say you want a permanent ban, sounds great, but to scrap what you already have with no viable plan, drive a wedge between the US and it's closest allies, and elevate the Russian oil industry by restricting the viability of Iranian oil in the global market, does nothing to further that goal. The U.S. has less leverage now than it did when the JCPA was negotiated and has an even less attractive set of dwindling options than it did before if the Iranians decide scrap their own commitments under the agreement.
 
seb146
Posts: 17528
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Fri May 18, 2018 12:19 am

bob75013 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
[ Also, why are Saudi Arabia and Israel and Pakistan and India allowed to have nukes but Iran is not?


Well Saudi Arabia has said it will get nukes if Iran gets them. It doesn't have them yet.

The fact of the matter is that the more countries that get nukes, the more likely the world will find one of them crazy enough to actually fire off one of those suckers.


I would bet it is not a legitimate country who uses nukes again, but some loosely organized group of people, like al-Qaida or ISIS. There are enough desperate and rogue nations out there willing to get money at any costs.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Jayafe
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Fri May 18, 2018 12:54 am

seb146 wrote:
...I would bet it is not a legitimate country who uses nukes again... There are enough desperate and rogue nations out there willing to get money at any costs.


You mean the terrorist organisation also known as israel?
 
anrec80
Posts: 946
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Fri May 18, 2018 1:48 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
So we don't like China, EU, Japan, South Korea, Pakistan, Iran, Mexico, and Canada, at the point of picking a fight with Great Britain. And they are all going to help us with North Korea.


Let’s better see whom the USA hasn’t picked a fight yet.
 
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zkojq
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Fri May 18, 2018 4:10 am

Polot wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Not going to be easy to get parts or even planes for the AB equipment. Limited banking and financing is going to put a major crimp in Iran's life style.

But that is the point....your comment is from a US point if view. Europe, too, has banks that can give credit to Iran... :roll:
And if US companies stop supplying parts to Airbus, European companies would be forced to stop supplying parts to Boeing. And both sides lose. This is why this whole thing is such a brainless a manoeuvre...

But the EU can’t stop the US from preventing EU banks and companies that do business with Iran from doing business with the US. That is why the gesture is seen more as symbolic instead of something real and easy to enforce.

EU companies may have to decide between doing business in Iran or doing business in the US. Many will choose the US even if the EU backs them in business with Iran. The EU can’t force private companies to work with Iran.


Not all EU banks to business in the US....

MalevTU134 wrote:
I guess my point was that if the US starts to sanction EU banks (to use your example, but this reasoning is valid for any kind of business) for no good reason (from a EU point of view), then the EU will of course retaliate against US banks with the same coin, leading to a trade war. So both sides lose

:checkmark: Exactly. It's an unfortunate situation to be in, but the EU can't let this US challenge to their sovereignty go unrebuffed.

Blerg wrote:
It was also reported that the EU will drop the Dollar in favor of the Euro when buying Iranian oil.

Excellent. It is great that such moves are being done to support the Euro. When the Dollar Supremacy ends, hopefully the EU will have done enough to ensure that the Euro takes its place.

YIMBY wrote:
May has the most sensitive case, as the British people have voted for their 'independence' and they just cannot take orders from Trump when they just have refused to take rules from EU. Merkel is probably most angry and Macron has most to lose.


Wasn't the US going to make a free trade deal with the UK inorder to try and snub the EU, with the UK being willing to accept nearly any terms so that they can try and prove that they "dont need" the EU? That all seems to have gone quiet lately....

Blerg wrote:
Washington just keeps on adding more oil to the fire.


Very curious. Didn't Trump refuse to sign a round of Russia sanctions that were specifically aimed at targeting companies involved in the construction and financing of Nord Stream 2? Personally I'm strongly against Nord Stream 2 as it makes for far too much dependence on Russia and is a big source of hard currency for them. Better to make a big natural gas terminus at one of the ports like Lativia (?) did, so that Natural Gas can be purchased from Norway, the US, Qatar, Australia, Russia or whoever would give the best prices. It means that whenever Russia starts getting belligerent, Europe can source their Natural Gas needs elsewhere.
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seahawk
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Fri May 18, 2018 5:00 am

So Europe has again joined the axis of evil. Time to sanction them just like Iran. #MAGA
 
seb146
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Fri May 18, 2018 5:25 am

seahawk wrote:
So Europe has again joined the axis of evil. Time to sanction them just like Iran. #MAGA


So the rest of the world turns their backs on the United States, jobs leave, economy tanks.... Sounds about right for this "businessman"
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seahawk
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Fri May 18, 2018 5:36 am

seb146 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So Europe has again joined the axis of evil. Time to sanction them just like Iran. #MAGA


So the rest of the world turns their backs on the United States, jobs leave, economy tanks.... Sounds about right for this "businessman"


You just need to create enough hate, that such things won´t matter. And nobody is better at creating hate than Trump.
 
seb146
Posts: 17528
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Fri May 18, 2018 5:56 am

seahawk wrote:
seb146 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So Europe has again joined the axis of evil. Time to sanction them just like Iran. #MAGA


So the rest of the world turns their backs on the United States, jobs leave, economy tanks.... Sounds about right for this "businessman"


You just need to create enough hate, that such things won´t matter. And nobody is better at creating hate than Trump.


And those of us who have mortgages and health care bills and like to eat pay the price. But, thank God (the white, English speaking, blue eye, blond hair one) that China's ZTE will be creating jobs there. #MCGA
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8391
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Re: EU to reactivate 'blocking statute' against US sanctions on Iran for European firms

Fri May 18, 2018 6:00 am

WaywardMemphian wrote:
Total SA depends on American banks so they are pulling out of Iran.

That is how it will work in spite of the EU


The EU could however just decide that banks refusing to do Iran transactions are not eligible on the SWIFT network. The US may be able to stop EU banks from doing Iran transactions, but the EU can stop US banks pretty much from doing all transactions. Of course that would be a pretty nuclear option.

olle wrote:
EU also agreed to financing for companies exporting to Iran. I see many A380 seconf hand going to Iran.


They can also just use the European Investment bank to do the transactions via shadow accounts. Since that bank doesn´t have US branches, it is completely out of reach.
They can rescind the bilateral agreement on FATCA and offer the same transaction service to US citizens and customers.

Polot wrote:
The EU can’t force private companies to work with Iran.


The EU, just as any government entity, can force private companies to comply with the law. The law is, that implementing unilateral US sanctions is illegal. You can not force companies to start new business with Iran, but you can force companies to execute all ongoing projects to their conclusion. With this statute on the books, companies following US law are subject to damages and can be sued by their Iranian customers. There will be plenty of small and midsized companies that have a higher stake in their Iran business that profits from their US business.

mercure1 wrote:
Our EU lawmakers can make whatever declarations they desire, but does not stop fact that neither US parts can be exported to Iran, nor that private business will have to choose doing business with Iran or the US. For most its not a choice at all.

MalevTU134 wrote:
Europe is not going to fall on a sword just to do business with Iran, even to score a political point.

At the end of the day, US is countless times more important than Iran.


The "political point" is who gets to decide who a nations companies can and can´t do business with.
Attempting to limit economic freedom historically often enough served as a casus belli. Nation states have literally fallen on swords over and over and over again to make that point.

A trade war is a piece of cake compared to that and most importantly, those are won, without fail, by the side that has the bigger economy to back them up.
Compared to the economic power of the law abiding nations on the right side of this deal, the US clearly has the much smaller economy.

Trump is executing Putins plan to do as much long term damage to the US as possible flawlessly.

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Thomas
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