Flybe to retire ERJ 195

Boair · Wed May 16, 2018 7:30 pm

Flybe will retire their fleet of 9 ERJ 195 by April 2020:
http://atwonline.com/airframes/flybe-co ... 5-aircraft

lightsaber · Wed May 16, 2018 7:37 pm

Meh... Shrinking. Receiving four more E1-175s, so still an ejet opperator.

They weren't able to make a business case with the E-195s. Adapt and move on.

Lightsaber

leghorn · Wed May 16, 2018 7:51 pm

I don't know how they are supposed to negotiate good prices on a Q400 when they openly declare that the Q400 is the only plane they are interested in.

Armodeen · Wed May 16, 2018 7:57 pm

Not the first time they announced they will get rid of them.

BR715 · Wed May 16, 2018 8:20 pm

Will this include the two E195 currently leased to Stobart Air? Shame to see them go, BE's livery looks awesome on the Embraers.

JobsaGoodun · Wed May 16, 2018 8:38 pm

leghorn wrote:
I don't know how they are supposed to negotiate good prices on a Q400 when they openly declare that the Q400 is the only plane they are interested in.

Flybe have stated that they've no intention to submit a new aircraft order so I guess this isn't too important, and given that Flybe are one of the few supporters of the DH4, current lessors will likely think carefully before attempting to play hardball with Flybe in negotiations over lease extensions.

kaitak · Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 pm

What happened with the ex-Republic Q400s; they seem to have stopped at 'PRPO; I thought they had more coming than that?

JannEejit · Wed May 16, 2018 9:05 pm

The latest chapter in the Flybe book of 'What Shall We Try Next ?'

leghorn · Wed May 16, 2018 9:27 pm

JobsaGoodun wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I don't know how they are supposed to negotiate good prices on a Q400 when they openly declare that the Q400 is the only plane they are interested in.

Flybe have stated that they've no intention to submit a new aircraft order so I guess this isn't too important, and given that Flybe are one of the few supporters of the DH4, current lessors will likely think carefully before attempting to play hardball with Flybe in negotiations over lease extensions.

Their Q400 fleet age is 10 years on average. They need young/new planes.

Jerry123 · Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm

leghorn wrote:
JobsaGoodun wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I don't know how they are supposed to negotiate good prices on a Q400 when they openly declare that the Q400 is the only plane they are interested in.

Flybe have stated that they've no intention to submit a new aircraft order so I guess this isn't too important, and given that Flybe are one of the few supporters of the DH4, current lessors will likely think carefully before attempting to play hardball with Flybe in negotiations over lease extensions.

Their Q400 fleet age is 10 years on average. They need young/new planes.

Why do they? They can get another 5 years out of them and then look to start replacing them.

TC957 · Wed May 16, 2018 9:45 pm

Was only a few years ago that they ordered up to 70 E175's and talked about 70 more as purchase options with a network of regional hubs throughout Europe. Guess reality set in with their new management.

leghorn · Wed May 16, 2018 10:23 pm

Jerry123 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
JobsaGoodun wrote:

Flybe have stated that they've no intention to submit a new aircraft order so I guess this isn't too important, and given that Flybe are one of the few supporters of the DH4, current lessors will likely think carefully before attempting to play hardball with Flybe in negotiations over lease extensions.

Their Q400 fleet age is 10 years on average. They need young/new planes.

Why do they? They can get another 5 years out of them and then look to start replacing them.

B'cos of the huge amounts they spend on maintenance see https://www.ft.com/content/36f59754-b7a ... 38efb69ba6 and b'cos... https://cdn-03.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/i ... nds001.jpg

leleko747 · Wed May 16, 2018 10:28 pm

Boair wrote:
Flybe will retire their fleet of 9 ERJ 195 by April 2020:
http://atwonline.com/airframes/flybe-co ... 5-aircraft

2018 and people still call E-Jets as ERJs? :confused:

tomkell92 · Wed May 16, 2018 11:03 pm

leleko747 wrote:
Boair wrote:
Flybe will retire their fleet of 9 ERJ 195 by April 2020:
http://atwonline.com/airframes/flybe-co ... 5-aircraft

2018 and people still call E-Jets as ERJs?

Probably because they're officially known and certified as ERJ'S :lol:

Look at the certificates or type rating documents for the Embraers and you'll see why. Even fleet websites display them as ERJ's.

PlymSpotter · Wed May 16, 2018 11:12 pm

Wow, what a screw up that order was. BE have been trying to get out of their 12 year leases since the turn of the decade, and only succeeded in offloading 5 of the type. They even parked the fleet at a lease cost of £265k per frame a month, before giving up on selling them and deciding it was marginally better to fly them, even if it was still likely to be loss making. And now it only ends for them when the leases finally expire.

Armodeen wrote:
Not the first time they announced they will get rid of them.

They've been trying for years, but nobody was interested due to the unfavourable lease terms.

TC957 wrote:
Was only a few years ago that they ordered up to 70 E175's and talked about 70 more as purchase options with a network of regional hubs throughout Europe. Guess reality set in with their new management.

Reality set in with the old management when they couldn't raise financing to begin accepting the very first aircraft. In the end a deal was done with Brazil's new Exim bank, but it still wasn't sustainable for BE and nor was the huge order. The then new management (now old) also didn't have a clue... literally.

leleko747 · Thu May 17, 2018 12:08 am

tomkell92 wrote:
Probably because they're officially known and certified as ERJ'S

Look at the certificates or type rating documents for the Embraers and you'll see why. Even fleet websites display them as ERJ's.

Certified... yes
Known... no, not since early 2000s.

The certification type remains actually as ERJ-170-100/200 (200 = 175) and ERJ-190-100/200 (200 = 195).
However, Embraer have gotten rid of the RJ label for the E-Jets since the early 2000s. These jets have enough range and capacity to fly some short-medium haul routes, longer than regional services. Heck, Azul have flights with them which are over 3 hours. You won't find Embraer labelling them as ERJ family, these are now restricted to ERJ-135/140/145 jets.
Probably the certification type didn't change just for bureaucratic reasons.

ANyway, i'm already hijacking the thread.

oldannyboy · Thu May 17, 2018 9:55 am

leghorn wrote:
I don't know how they are supposed to negotiate good prices on a Q400 when they openly declare that the Q400 is the only plane they are interested in.

Because customers for the Q400 are not exactly queuing up at Mirabel so I suppose BBD is happy and grateful of the fruitful relationship....

leghorn · Thu May 17, 2018 10:14 am

oldannyboy wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I don't know how they are supposed to negotiate good prices on a Q400 when they openly declare that the Q400 is the only plane they are interested in.

Because customers for the Q400 are not exactly queuing up at Mirabel so I suppose BBD is happy and grateful of the fruitful relationship....

That's not how it works. There is no reward for loyalty in business.

CRJ900 · Thu May 17, 2018 10:15 am

I would have thought Flybe could fill the E195 on always-busy routes to Spain and such... what are the likely fate for these aircraft?

I assume Flybe has looked at the Q400HighDensity as a possible replacement for older Q400 - with 82-86 seats (compared to 78 seats now) they get extra capacity within the same fleet.

leghorn · Thu May 17, 2018 10:23 am

CRJ900 wrote:
I assume Flybe has looked at the Q400HighDensity as a possible replacement for older Q400 - with 82-86 seats (compared to 78 seats now) they get extra capacity within the same fleet.

They can state they are committed to Q400 when they have placed an order with additional options to handle future growth at a price per unit which is satisfactory to them, not before they make an order at some unspecified time in the future.

I have selected my next car which I will order later in the year. The salesman has been very cocky because I've ordered two cars from him in succession so he fully expects me to buy from him again. I made a point of telling him I was offered an extra 7% discount on a competitor product with no delivery charges.

FlyBE have signalled to Bombardier that they will buy Bombardier planes and competition from other manufacturers will have no bearing on their decision.

CarbonFibre · Thu May 17, 2018 10:33 am

Knowing flybe they'll probably change their mind and order some more at Farnborough.

oldannyboy · Thu May 17, 2018 10:56 am

leghorn wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I don't know how they are supposed to negotiate good prices on a Q400 when they openly declare that the Q400 is the only plane they are interested in.

Because customers for the Q400 are not exactly queuing up at Mirabel so I suppose BBD is happy and grateful of the fruitful relationship....

That's not how it works. There is no reward for loyalty in business.

Well, actually no. Not always at least. I do beg to differ. There are still some decent human beings now and again who still believe in a mutually beneficial rapport with an established customer and will do all they can to accommodate them.

leghorn · Thu May 17, 2018 10:59 am

I repeat that there is no reward for loyalty outside a contract.
Which "decent" human beings are you talking about? There has been a game of musical chairs going on in the upper management positions of both FlyBE and Bombardier. Do you expect the next person to occupy a role to embody the uncertain qualities which you classify as "decent".

skipness1E · Thu May 17, 2018 1:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Meh... Shrinking. Receiving four more E1-175s, so still an ejet opperator.

They weren't able to make a business case with the E-195s. Adapt and move on.

Lightsaber

There was precious little business case for JETS for flybe

Beatyair · Fri May 18, 2018 6:14 am

Everyone is deposing of the ERJ-190/195’s. It is going to be hard to sell the latest model with the previous model not doing well. There sweet spot in this narrow tube is the 75 - 80 passenger model.

Beatyair · Fri May 18, 2018 6:15 am

Everyone is deposing of the ERJ-190/195’s. It is going to be hard to sell the latest model with the previous model not doing well. There sweet spot in this narrow tube is the 75 - 80 passenger model.

tallis · Fri May 18, 2018 7:14 am

Beatyair wrote:
Everyone is deposing of the ERJ-190/195’s.

That’s not quite true - BACF just took delivery of their 16th 190 which is on a four year lease, and Stobart have expanded their fleet (albeit as part of a ludicrously complicated relationship with Flybe) over the last year. It’s still a very capable aircraft and in demand at some carriers.

stratocruiser · Fri May 18, 2018 9:51 am

tallis wrote:
Beatyair wrote:
Everyone is deposing of the ERJ-190/195’s.

That’s not quite true - BACF just took delivery of their 16th 190 which is on a four year lease, and Stobart have expanded their fleet (albeit as part of a ludicrously complicated relationship with Flybe) over the last year. It’s still a very capable aircraft and in demand at some carriers.

When I saw that Stobart were adding some Flybe ERJs to their operation, I did wonder whether they might at some stage expand their operation with Aer Lingus to utilise some ERJs to open some additional EI routes to Continental Europe. But I guess that is unlikely to happen now.

VSMUT · Fri May 18, 2018 10:35 am

Beatyair wrote:
Everyone is deposing of the ERJ-190/195’s. It is going to be hard to sell the latest model with the previous model not doing well. There sweet spot in this narrow tube is the 75 - 80 passenger model.

No, everyone is not deposing of the E-190 and E-195. US operators got rid of them due to union related issues. In the rest of the world it is still very popular, and despite being an ageing type, more airlines are still adding them than there are ones getting rid of them. In Europe, the E-170 and E-175 have been the least popular of this family, with airlines ridding themselves of these much quicker than the bigger ones.

Amiga500 · Fri May 18, 2018 10:39 am

leghorn wrote:
FlyBE have signalled to Bombardier that they will buy Bombardier planes and competition from other manufacturers will have no bearing on their decision.

If BBD's choices are close the Q400 line or sell a few aircaft to flybe at marginal profit (or zero build profit with their money made later on in support) then its a no brainer to sell the aircraft. Otherwise they will just ring ATR.

Do you think Tim Clark is being price gouged by Airbus for the A380?

leghorn · Fri May 18, 2018 3:29 pm

I still don't think they did their negotiating position one iota of good by making that public statement.

I wonder will they manage to reduce their crew numbers by natural wastage as they are reducing their fleet to only 70 planes ; 18 percent reduction.

Dominion301 · Fri May 18, 2018 3:38 pm

JobsaGoodun wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I don't know how they are supposed to negotiate good prices on a Q400 when they openly declare that the Q400 is the only plane they are interested in.

Flybe have stated that they've no intention to submit a new aircraft order so I guess this isn't too important, and given that Flybe are one of the few supporters of the DH4, current lessors will likely think carefully before attempting to play hardball with Flybe in negotiations over lease extensions.

Few supporters of the DH4? There's at least 50 operators of them worldwide.

Jerry123 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
JobsaGoodun wrote:

Flybe have stated that they've no intention to submit a new aircraft order so I guess this isn't too important, and given that Flybe are one of the few supporters of the DH4, current lessors will likely think carefully before attempting to play hardball with Flybe in negotiations over lease extensions.

Their Q400 fleet age is 10 years on average. They need young/new planes.

Why do they? They can get another 5 years out of them and then look to start replacing them.

Dash 8s are built like tanks. They'll last another 20 years easily. The 'classic' DH3s with the life extension programme will last until they're 50.

Jerry123 · Fri May 18, 2018 5:00 pm

Beatyair wrote:
Everyone is deposing of the ERJ-190/195’s. It is going to be hard to sell the latest model with the previous model not doing well. There sweet spot in this narrow tube is the 75 - 80 passenger model.

In Europe there are 20 operators of the E190/195 model and 10 of the E170/175 model and a few airlines like KLM Cityhopper and Flybe have both types. Flybe are getting rid of theirs because the leases are too high and in their network there are only a few airports where they can fill them and only on certain routes at CWL for instance where there is 2 based generally they only get filled up on Faro Rome and at Verona. The E175 and Q400 are much better suited for Flybe's operations.

leghorn · Fri May 18, 2018 6:27 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
JobsaGoodun wrote:
Dash 8s are built like tanks. They'll last another 20 years easily. The 'classic' DH3s with the life extension programme will last until they're 50.

I direct you back to viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1394319#p20410033
Maintenance costs are high.
A mostly one type fleet will make FlyBE more attractive to a potential acquirer.

EMBSPBR · Sat May 19, 2018 5:29 pm

Beatyair wrote:
Everyone is deposing of the ERJ-190/195’s. It is going to be hard to sell the latest model with the previous model not doing well.

Not true.
I love it when people make personal assumptions without real facts to support them.

Of the total of 748 E190 / 195 produced since 2004, 685 are still in operation, or 92% of the total.
Many of the first aircraft produced are still in operation and many of these are still being relocated to new operators.

Another indication that for those second-hand aircraft there is an excellent market (would a leasing company buy this portfolio if there was no market for it? No, of course not):

Source: http: //atwonline.com/leasing/nordic-aviation-capital-acquires-aldus-aviation-s-e-jet-portfolio? NL = ATW-04 & cl = article_7 & utm_rid = CPEN1000000274794 & utm_campaign = 14915 & utm_medium = email & elq2 = 6848d3a36496432b8785a9358c4b5bc6

"Nordic Aviation Capital acquires Aldus Aviation’s E-Jet portfolio"

Excerpts:

Danish regional aircraft lessor Nordic Aviation Capital (NAC) has acquired all the aircraft owned by Aldus Aviation Fund (AAF), comprising 29 Embraer E-Jets.

NAC has managed the 29 aircraft since 2016, but on May 17 the company said it had acquired AAF’s portfolio.

The aircraft are currently leased to nine airlines, including Air France subsidiary HOP!, UK regional Flybe and Royal Air Maroc.

GCT64 · Sat May 19, 2018 5:38 pm

I'm not an expert on the aftermarket for E195s, but here's the current status of the previous departures from the Flybe fleet (all of which initially went to other operators):

1 in service (with 6W)
1 being prepared for service (with 6W)
1 x stored MST
1 x stored CFE
1 x runway overrun KOE (w/o??)

lightsaber · Sat May 19, 2018 6:02 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
Beatyair wrote:
Everyone is deposing of the ERJ-190/195’s. It is going to be hard to sell the latest model with the previous model not doing well.

Not true.
I love it when people make personal assumptions without real facts to support them.

Of the total of 748 E190 / 195 produced since 2004, 685 are still in operation, or 92% of the total.
Many of the first aircraft produced are still in operation and many of these are still being relocated to new operators.

Another indication that for those second-hand aircraft there is an excellent market (would a leasing company buy this portfolio if there was no market for it? No, of course not):

Source: http: //atwonline.com/leasing/nordic-aviation-capital-acquires-aldus-aviation-s-e-jet-portfolio? NL = ATW-04 & cl = article_7 & utm_rid = CPEN1000000274794 & utm_campaign = 14915 & utm_medium = email & elq2 = 6848d3a36496432b8785a9358c4b5bc6

"Nordic Aviation Capital acquires Aldus Aviation’s E-Jet portfolio"

Excerpts:

Danish regional aircraft lessor Nordic Aviation Capital (NAC) has acquired all the aircraft owned by Aldus Aviation Fund (AAF), comprising 29 Embraer E-Jets.

NAC has managed the 29 aircraft since 2016, but on May 17 the company said it had acquired AAF’s portfolio.

The aircraft are currently leased to nine airlines, including Air France subsidiary HOP!, UK regional Flybe and Royal Air Maroc.

Errr... Actually, 8% of a < 14 year old fleet not operating implies a poor secondary market. E-jets have value, the question is at what price. Unfortunately, by today's standards, the CF-34-10 burns too much fuel. That means the frames need to be flown during times of higher RASK (lower utilization). Lower utilization means lower capital costs... Or lower resale values.

As a passenger, I love the E-jets, but often I do not take enough time to select the plane.

I do disagree on used E-190/195 significantly impacting the new market. The reality is the E2s are far better for high utilization duty. There is simply no way to profitably operate E1s at the impressive duty we see with E2s. The E2s also reduce the maintenance bill enough.

The reality is the E1s are doomed to go to low utilization duty earlier. Eh... I cannot get excited about basic economics playing out.

Lightsaber

Dominion301 · Sat May 19, 2018 8:03 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
Beatyair wrote:
Everyone is deposing of the ERJ-190/195’s. It is going to be hard to sell the latest model with the previous model not doing well.

Not true.
I love it when people make personal assumptions without real facts to support them.

Of the total of 748 E190 / 195 produced since 2004, 685 are still in operation, or 92% of the total.
Many of the first aircraft produced are still in operation and many of these are still being relocated to new operators.

Another indication that for those second-hand aircraft there is an excellent market (would a leasing company buy this portfolio if there was no market for it? No, of course not):

Source: http: //atwonline.com/leasing/nordic-aviation-capital-acquires-aldus-aviation-s-e-jet-portfolio? NL = ATW-04 & cl = article_7 & utm_rid = CPEN1000000274794 & utm_campaign = 14915 & utm_medium = email & elq2 = 6848d3a36496432b8785a9358c4b5bc6

"Nordic Aviation Capital acquires Aldus Aviation’s E-Jet portfolio"

Excerpts:

Danish regional aircraft lessor Nordic Aviation Capital (NAC) has acquired all the aircraft owned by Aldus Aviation Fund (AAF), comprising 29 Embraer E-Jets.

NAC has managed the 29 aircraft since 2016, but on May 17 the company said it had acquired AAF’s portfolio.

The aircraft are currently leased to nine airlines, including Air France subsidiary HOP!, UK regional Flybe and Royal Air Maroc.

There’s been 748 E90/95 built? Wow! Given the enormous number of E75s built, I always thought the E90/95 count was lower than that.

BAWLGW · Sat May 19, 2018 8:17 pm

BA CITYFLYER might be interested in taking them off their hands?

opticalilyushin · Sat May 19, 2018 9:58 pm

BAWLGW wrote:
BA CITYFLYER might be interested in taking them off their hands?

If they did it wont be for LCY, the 195 isn't certified

PlymSpotter · Sat May 19, 2018 10:30 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
BAWLGW wrote:
BA CITYFLYER might be interested in taking them off their hands?

If they did it wont be for LCY, the 195 isn't certified

Which is more than BE senior management could comprehend back then. Even claimed that the ATR 72 couldn't use LCY. No wonder BE are in such a bad shape.

opticalilyushin · Sun May 20, 2018 8:07 am

As mentioned by Lightsaber earlier fuel burn is also an issue. The 195 might be a capable aircraft but when it uses almost as much fuel as the much heavier A319 there is a problem

BAWLGW · Sun May 20, 2018 9:07 am

opticalilyushin wrote:
BAWLGW wrote:
BA CITYFLYER might be interested in taking them off their hands?

If they did it wont be for LCY, the 195 isn't certified

They could use them to add capacity at STN and MAN.

Andy33 · Sun May 20, 2018 9:41 am

BAWLGW wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
BAWLGW wrote:
BA CITYFLYER might be interested in taking them off their hands?

If they did it wont be for LCY, the 195 isn't certified

They could use them to add capacity at STN and MAN.

Well they could, except that there are no aircraft or crews based at either - STN and MAN flights use LCY aircraft that would otherwise be idle because of lower weekend business demand and most importantly the weekend curfew at LCY. Whether the STN and MAN routes would be viable if they had to bear the whole weekly cost of aircraft and crew only BA knows. BA are still adding second hand E190s to the LCY fleet, another one arrived this week.

David_itl · Sun May 20, 2018 9:43 am

But that would mean making them full time bases. BA had the chance at MAN but chose to raise the white flag of surrender and the airport's evolved and moved on big style with the lack of them. Not too sure what BA could now bring to the table as prime slots are scarce unless the circle is turned and Flybe is taken under BACF's wings. Which in turn then throws up feeding a Level-style operation for limited long-haul (assuming BA doesn't do their party trick of premium flyers "encouraged" to route MAN-LHR-elsewhere)

716131 · Sun May 20, 2018 1:49 pm

Wow, how but some interest who will take former Flybe E95 was possibly to be LOT Polish Airlines. There are only 9 remaining in fleet and they are the 2007 and 2008 airframe (G-FBEF-FBEN) but the 5 2006 models are already solded to another airlines.

Jerry123 · Sun May 20, 2018 2:25 pm

leghorn wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
JobsaGoodun wrote:
Dash 8s are built like tanks. They'll last another 20 years easily. The 'classic' DH3s with the life extension programme will last until they're 50.

I direct you back to viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1394319#p20410033
Maintenance costs are high.
A mostly one type fleet will make FlyBE more attractive to a potential acquirer.

They have 2 fleet types once the E195s go they'll have aircraft perfectly suited to their operations.

PlymSpotter · Sun May 20, 2018 8:34 pm

Jerry123 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

I direct you back to viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1394319#p20410033
Maintenance costs are high.
A mostly one type fleet will make FlyBE more attractive to a potential acquirer.

They have 2 fleet types once the E195s go they'll have aircraft perfectly suited to their operations.

I disagree - the ATR 72 would be the perfect aircraft, especially when paired with the ERJ 175. Such issues with the current fleet are well known within BE too, but they are not in a financial position to re-fleet.

Jerry123 · Sun May 20, 2018 8:47 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
Jerry123 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I direct you back to viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1394319#p20410033
Maintenance costs are high.
A mostly one type fleet will make FlyBE more attractive to a potential acquirer.

They have 2 fleet types once the E195s go they'll have aircraft perfectly suited to their operations.

I disagree - the ATR 72 would be the perfect aircraft, especially when paired with the ERJ 175. Such issues with the current fleet are well known within BE too, but they are not in a financial position to re-fleet.

The ATR 72 is too slow. The Q400 is much faster for their needs and i also believe they have longer range as well. Flybe don't need to refleet at the moment though in 5 years time they probably could look at it. At the moment they just need to concentrate on what they are good at.

leghorn · Sun May 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Jerry123 wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
Jerry123 wrote:
The ATR 72 is too slow. The Q400 is much faster for their needs and i also believe they have longer range as well.

Imagine switching to ATR72 with all your pilots rated for Q400.
Q400 is good enough to reach in to middle europe from UK.
Q400 straddles turboprop to regional jet divide better than an ATR72
Q400 potentially holds more paying passengers.
If only they could afford young or new Q400s.

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