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enilria
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 8:24 pm

airbazar wrote:
enilria wrote:
T773ER wrote:
Delta is hosting a employee rally May 24th in Atlanta with Ed Bastian Stating there will be some announcements at the event, so perhaps we'll find out then...
bfitzflyer wrote:
Interesting article, although nothing specific. Seems like India NS from US might happen.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/14/delta-m ... yptr=yahoo

Absolutely nothing changed with the economics of any route as a result of the agreement with the UAE. Just read the agreement. Either these routes were good before and are good now, or the reverse. Feeding the Jet hubs makes sense, but the deal with Jet is unrelated to the deal with UAE or Qatar as they could have done that deal or a similar deal with another Indian carrier at any point.

I'll go even further and say that calling a "deal" is overreaching. Absolutely nothing changed other than the ME3 promising to open up the books even more than they had already done, which basically means DL and the rest of the U.S. carriers will have absolutely no reason to cry for when they find out that EK was never getting any subsidies. Then what? EK and the ME3 can still start any 5th freedom routes if they chose to do so.

Only Etihad promised to additionally open their books and EY is already basically out of the game. I expect they will eventually merge with EK. EK is not changing their current audit regimen as it already conformed.

You can see that Delta is already positioning itself to claim any new 5th Freedom routes are a violation of the deal, when the deal clearly does not say that. If EK were super-smart about this, they would wait till DL starts a route to feed Jet Airways and then announce another 5th Freedom route. Then Delta will apparently be forced to drop the newly added route because of the severe impact on India routes caused my EK adding a flight between Europe and the USA.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 8:32 pm

airbazar wrote:
Absolutely nothing changed other than the ME3 promising to open up the books even more than they had already done.


That will show how much Emirates Airline paid Emirates Flight Catering, Dubai Airports. dnata and Dubai ATF suppliers. Emirates Airline has to pay for terminal construction.

Delta can operate any number of India ULH flights profitably if it doesn't need pay airport fees,federal/state/city taxes, food and gas at home base and if FAA allows 3-person crew on ULH, just pay at remote stations and claim well run.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Tue May 15, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Sightseer
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 8:36 pm

Put me in the camp that thinks this is just a PR exercise, since on paper nothing has changed regarding the viability of US-Middle East/South Asia flights. But any expansion will still be good to see.

klm617 wrote:
Let's face it Delta is really not as successful as people think in Asia they are a distant 3rd as far as the US3 are concerned

By what measure?
 
mcogator
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 8:43 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
US-India is very long and low yielding. The ME3 and soon WOW in the market, the economics will be worse than the last time delta tried it. I just don't see delta making a ton of money in that sector.

Wow I think has almost endless potential on North america-india, delta I think has very little real potential to make money.

Exactly, and the pax don't pay for J ejther, even though they can afford it. My exwife is a CPA and a few of her clients made annual trips to India to see family. These clients are high net worth/income, ie a cardiologist making $800k/yr with $12 million in liquid asset, and they never, ever pay for J. They will always select the cheapest Y ticket, even though they're older and have the money to afford it. I'm sure the US3 are ok with leaving that market to the ME3.
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
stl07
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 9:19 pm

They aren't going to enter India, they have a new target to accuse who entered the market today. ....."How can they only charge 200 and add an additional stop in the Arctic- aha- its subsidized!!"....
 
stl07
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 9:21 pm

Sightseer wrote:
Put me in the camp that thinks this is just a PR exercise, since on paper nothing has changed regarding the viability of US-Middle East/South Asia flights. But any expansion will still be good to see.

klm617 wrote:
Let's face it Delta is really not as successful as people think in Asia they are a distant 3rd as far as the US3 are concerned

By what measure?

In his/her defense DL is dismal in the ME/Indian subcontinent, but so is AA
 
directorguy
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 9:41 pm

Is there still significant US military traffic in the Gulf+ Afghanistan?
A decade ago when DL had ATL-DXB US military ops were at a peak. Just wondering if there is still a genuine business case for a route like that. Dubai is a regional business hub and draws a lot of corporate traffic. How many Forbes 500 companies in Atlanta, Dallas, Austin etc do business in Dubai?
Also, what would stop DL from interlining with 9W at DXB as opposed to AMS or DEL? DXB is practically a 9W focus city, with several flights to multiple cites in India each day.
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 10:08 pm

klm617 wrote:
Let's see if Detroit gets some love or will it be snubbed yet again. Detroit India would be a good market for them. A350 is the perfect plane for Detroit India and the only Delta market left with no competition from the ME3 yet.

Almost positive it'll be JFK-BOM, though DTW-BOM would be a lovely surprise.
Hi, I'm TryToFlySomeday. A guy who likes to analyze airlines, and loves road trips & airplane trips. Founder of the Roadgeeking Section and Pakistan Aviation Threads.

American-born Pakistani based in ORD. Favorite cities: ORD / GRR / DTW
 
klm617
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 10:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
EddieDude wrote:
The tie-up with 9W (and KL-AF), together with this comment by the CEO makes me believe that we might see a BOM-JFK or DEL-JFK flight soon, either operated by DL itself with a 77L, or by 9W with a 77W. When is 9W supposed to start receiving the 789s? 2020? I recall that the order was first upgraded from the -8 to the -9 and then it was deferred.



I don't know why everyone keeps insisting that JFK would come first there is no premium traffic to be had there if anything they would go to ATL before JFK when they only have to contend with QR at JFK there are a multitude of completers leaving Delta with the junk yields or empty planes at the fares they charge.


Why? NYC is the largest air market in the country. It's the largest international air market in the country. ATL - adding 500 miles to what is already a ULH flight - doubt it. DTW? Hah ha ha - cut O&D by 90% - yeh, that's a great move. Metro Detroit doesn't even make the top 12 U.S. metro areas for ethnic Indian population.


If Delta made the right move instead of acting out of ego DTW-BOM or DEL is the only logical route to start 3 weekly. JFK has no yield for them and Atlanta they would be up against QR and they can't win there even with nonstop. The numbers on the internet of Indian population in US metro areas is at best 2 years old and maybe more. Also Indian automaker Mahindra is opening an assembly plant north of Detroit so why not get in on the ground floor. I know Delta loves to route everything over ATL but it has failed there and at JFK so why not give Detroit a shot with an A359.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 10:16 pm

directorguy wrote:
Is there still significant US military traffic in the Gulf+ Afghanistan?
A decade ago when DL had ATL-DXB US military ops were at a peak. Just wondering if there is still a genuine business case for a route like that. Dubai is a regional business hub and draws a lot of corporate traffic. How many Forbes 500 companies in Atlanta, Dallas, Austin etc do business in Dubai?
Also, what would stop DL from interlining with 9W at DXB as opposed to AMS or DEL? DXB is practically a 9W focus city, with several flights to multiple cites in India each day.



Why should Delta fly the extra distance when they can connect passengers at AMS and CDG. The real reason they ended ATL-DXB is because the contract from the government was awarded to someone else.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 10:17 pm

stl07 wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
Put me in the camp that thinks this is just a PR exercise, since on paper nothing has changed regarding the viability of US-Middle East/South Asia flights. But any expansion will still be good to see.

klm617 wrote:
Let's face it Delta is really not as successful as people think in Asia they are a distant 3rd as far as the US3 are concerned

By what measure?

In his/her defense DL is dismal in the ME/Indian subcontinent, but so is AA



Yes but at least AA has a better partner in Japan Airlines than Delta does in Korean.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 10:20 pm

Sightseer wrote:
Put me in the camp that thinks this is just a PR exercise, since on paper nothing has changed regarding the viability of US-Middle East/South Asia flights. But any expansion will still be good to see.

klm617 wrote:
Let's face it Delta is really not as successful as people think in Asia they are a distant 3rd as far as the US3 are concerned

By what measure?



One indication would be from the west coast they operate the smallest gauge possible not to mention they don't even sustain a nonstop from their second largest international hub the biggest city in the USA with the biggest city in Asia that says it all right there.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
iyerhari
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 10:37 pm

mcogator wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
US-India is very long and low yielding. The ME3 and soon WOW in the market, the economics will be worse than the last time delta tried it. I just don't see delta making a ton of money in that sector.

Wow I think has almost endless potential on North america-india, delta I think has very little real potential to make money.

Exactly, and the pax don't pay for J ejther, even though they can afford it. My exwife is a CPA and a few of her clients made annual trips to India to see family. These clients are high net worth/income, ie a cardiologist making $800k/yr with $12 million in liquid asset, and they never, ever pay for J. They will always select the cheapest Y ticket, even though they're older and have the money to afford it. I'm sure the US3 are ok with leaving that market to the ME3.

Multiple reasons IMO - they maybe making trips almost every year and sometimes multiple times in an year. There are also relations coming in from India to the US. For many Indians, traveling in J is not so much of consideration as being able to see family -- destination time is still the same if you are traveling in J or Y. They will travel on J unless somebody is paying for it. I have known of several of my relatives who travel in the same way you are mentioning. It is a mindset change - maybe you should check with the cardiologist next generation who maybe born and raised here to see how they travel.
 
Antarius
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 10:42 pm

klm617 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


I don't know why everyone keeps insisting that JFK would come first there is no premium traffic to be had there if anything they would go to ATL before JFK when they only have to contend with QR at JFK there are a multitude of completers leaving Delta with the junk yields or empty planes at the fares they charge.


Why? NYC is the largest air market in the country. It's the largest international air market in the country. ATL - adding 500 miles to what is already a ULH flight - doubt it. DTW? Hah ha ha - cut O&D by 90% - yeh, that's a great move. Metro Detroit doesn't even make the top 12 U.S. metro areas for ethnic Indian population.


If Delta made the right move instead of acting out of ego DTW-BOM or DEL is the only logical route to start 3 weekly. JFK has no yield for them and Atlanta they would be up against QR and they can't win there even with nonstop. The numbers on the internet of Indian population in US metro areas is at best 2 years old and maybe more. Also Indian automaker Mahindra is opening an assembly plant north of Detroit so why not get in on the ground floor. I know Delta loves to route everything over ATL but it has failed there and at JFK so why not give Detroit a shot with an A359.


Ahahaha. You think DL does fleet and route planning on the grounds of ego?

The DTW hard on for some is worse than the one ESPN has for LeBron James.
2018 : AUA | CLT | IAH | HOU | DFW | COS | DEN | CLL | ORD | PVG | PEK | PHX | OAK | SFO | SJC | PHL | YYC | STL | DTW | HNL | OGG | JFK | LGA
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 10:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
Put me in the camp that thinks this is just a PR exercise, since on paper nothing has changed regarding the viability of US-Middle East/South Asia flights. But any expansion will still be good to see.

klm617 wrote:
Let's face it Delta is really not as successful as people think in Asia they are a distant 3rd as far as the US3 are concerned

By what measure?



One indication would be from the west coast they operate the smallest gauge possible not to mention they don't even sustain a nonstop from their second largest international hub the biggest city in the USA with the biggest city in Asia that says it all right there.

I bet they could fill a couple dozen A380s everyday if those flights were from DTW.

You sound like a cult member sometimes. Even flat earthers would probably tell you to slow your roll.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 11:04 pm

DL DTW-India is 100% not happening. Like others have said, the fares on most US-India markets are very low.

Here'e s tell-tale example: Fares are cheaper to India that most of Europe.

DL DTW-AMS roundtrip 6/4-6/11, roundtrip in Y $1,547
DL DTW-AMS-BOM, BOM-CDG-DTW; roundtrip in Y $2,200
 
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DWC
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Tue May 15, 2018 11:04 pm

enilria wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
WOW Air has an introductory fare of $199 BOS-DEL ($398 r/t). :shock:

But, to be fair, WOW is subsidized by...(wait thinking of something, uhhhhh...) Icelandic North Sea oil money!!!! How about that? That sounds good.

LAX772LR wrote:
Yikes! :eek: Their fare didn't even show up, as I only looked 3days out. But yeah, even more to the point, if they're going to suppress yields like that.

WOW ! Everyone sheepishly zero-ed on the fare & failed to check that for that smoke screen you still have to buy yourself a seat, food, a luggage allowance & a long stayover in KEF unless you planned to hop to the Blue Lagoon & bathe in volcanic simmering waters while you wait in bliss for your connection... For a few dollars more you get a treat on TK or LX. And for more details :
https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/05/15/wow-air-delhi/
Last edited by DWC on Tue May 15, 2018 11:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 12:01 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL DTW-India is 100% not happening. Like others have said, the fares on most US-India markets are very low.

Here'e s tell-tale example: Fares are cheaper to India that most of Europe.

DL DTW-AMS roundtrip 6/4-6/11, roundtrip in Y $1,547
DL DTW-AMS-BOM, BOM-CDG-DTW; roundtrip in Y $2,200


Same dates on SkyTeam
ATL-AMS RT Y $1867
ATL-CDG RT Y $1804
ATL-CDG-BOM RT Y $1,405

So ATL-India is worse than DTW-India???
 
klm617
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 12:18 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL DTW-India is 100% not happening. Like others have said, the fares on most US-India markets are very low.

Here'e s tell-tale example: Fares are cheaper to India that most of Europe.

DL DTW-AMS roundtrip 6/4-6/11, roundtrip in Y $1,547
DL DTW-AMS-BOM, BOM-CDG-DTW; roundtrip in Y $2,200


Same dates on SkyTeam
ATL-AMS RT Y $1867
ATL-CDG RT Y $1804
ATL-CDG-BOM RT Y $1,405

So ATL-India is worse than DTW-India???


Yes so DTW-India gets better yields than ATL-India meaning it's a better choice. Also shows you the QR effect as Detroit has no ME3 carrier.
Last edited by klm617 on Wed May 16, 2018 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 12:20 am

questions wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Yes but at least AA has a better partner in Japan Airlines than Delta does in Korean.


Based on what? Why is AA/JL better than DL/KE?



Having a hub carrier based in HND and NRT is more valuable than a hub carrier based in Seoul
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
questions
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 12:22 am

klm617 wrote:
Yes but at least AA has a better partner in Japan Airlines than Delta does in Korean.


Based on what? Why is AA/JL better than DL/KE?
 
MAH4546
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 12:26 am

You can fill a plane from so many U.S. cities to India with ease - Atlanta, Miami, Los Angeles, Boston, Philadelphia and on and on. That doesn't mean a flight is happening. Yields suck and distance is too long. I don't think we'll see Delta re-enter India.
a.
 
klm617
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 12:55 am

MAH4546 wrote:
You can fill a plane from so many U.S. cities to India with ease - Atlanta, Miami, Los Angeles, Boston, Philadelphia and on and on. That doesn't mean a flight is happening. Yields suck and distance is too long. I don't think we'll see Delta re-enter India.



I agree 100% India is pretty much like the Philippines when it comes to yields
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:02 am

DWC wrote:
enilria wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
WOW Air has an introductory fare of $199 BOS-DEL ($398 r/t). :shock:

But, to be fair, WOW is subsidized by...(wait thinking of something, uhhhhh...) Icelandic North Sea oil money!!!! How about that? That sounds good.

LAX772LR wrote:
Yikes! :eek: Their fare didn't even show up, as I only looked 3days out. But yeah, even more to the point, if they're going to suppress yields like that.

WOW ! Everyone sheepishly zero-ed on the fare & failed to check that for that smoke screen you still have to buy yourself a seat, food, a luggage allowance & a long stayover in KEF unless you planned to hop to the Blue Lagoon & bathe in volcanic simmering waters while you wait in bliss for your connection... For a few dollars more you get a treat on TK or LX. And for more details :
https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/05/15/wow-air-delhi/


Yes but TK and LX don't serve my city. A better example would have been pricing flights out from STL or PIT. BOS is the closest point to KEF in the USA that WOW Air serves and has plenty of competition so again we can share data and examples to show what ever results we want.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:27 am

With regards to DTW-India, had NW stayed aloft and received the 787-8s, DTW-DEL/BOM could have been possibilities. However, an independent NWA would have likely built up SEA as a West Coast gateway with 787-8s. Good chance you would have seen SEA-SIN/SYD with 787-8s. SEA-DEL/BOM is actually shorter than DTW-DEL/BOM and has a larger market. So its possible NWA would have flown SEA-DEL/BOM instead of DTW-DEL/BOM. Yes, NWA was considering nonstop flights to India with 787-8 before the merger.
 
Sightseer
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:33 am

klm617 wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Let's face it Delta is really not as successful as people think in Asia they are a distant 3rd as far as the US3 are concerned

By what measure?



One indication would be from the west coast they operate the smallest gauge possible not to mention they don't even sustain a nonstop from their second largest international hub the biggest city in the USA with the biggest city in Asia that says it all right there.

Dear God. DL has seven daily flights from the West Coast to Asia, compared to AA's five. Neither carrier flies JFK-TYO. How does any of that put DL in third place to Asia, let alone a distant third?
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:37 am

And this thread has officially been ruined by the exact same poster that ruins any other DL thread.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:40 am

DWC wrote:
WOW ! Everyone sheepishly zero-ed on the fare & failed to check

Congratulations, you just described the exact type of person who'd fly that airline in the first place......
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:49 am

With WOW and the like starting India, JFK-BOM because even more important. There is no question that premium traffic exists between JFK and India (with BOM being a key destination). Being able to offer nonstop to BOM and then one stop to a ton of cities in India with 9W should allow DL/9W to charge a premium to their respective FFs. While there is no doubt the India VFR market is price sensitive (or rather used to cheap fares), India still has a lot of higher value pax. It’s sort of like China where US corporates help make US3 flights work inspire of cheap Chinese carrier flights.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:59 am

mcogator wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
US-India is very long and low yielding. The ME3 and soon WOW in the market, the economics will be worse than the last time delta tried it. I just don't see delta making a ton of money in that sector.

Wow I think has almost endless potential on North america-india, delta I think has very little real potential to make money.

Exactly, and the pax don't pay for J ejther, even though they can afford it. My exwife is a CPA and a few of her clients made annual trips to India to see family. These clients are high net worth/income, ie a cardiologist making $800k/yr with $12 million in liquid asset, and they never, ever pay for J. They will always select the cheapest Y ticket, even though they're older and have the money to afford it. I'm sure the US3 are ok with leaving that market to the ME3.


Sorry this is just not based in fact. Many of the high net worth Indians based in the US absolutely fly paid J to india and even more rich indians in india fly paid J to the us (they barely pay taxes on their income so trips can be lavish). In general, I would say those who have lived in the us for a long time buy J in a similar percentage as their american counterparts. Trips to India are long. It’s probably the number one mileage redemption for professional indians. Btw all my family and our relatives fly paid J or FFJ award to india. That said, we buy discount J (from travel agents or using our company’s discount fares)
 
Antarius
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:07 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
With WOW and the like starting India, JFK-BOM because even more important. There is no question that premium traffic exists between JFK and India (with BOM being a key destination). Being able to offer nonstop to BOM and then one stop to a ton of cities in India with 9W should allow DL/9W to charge a premium to their respective FFs. While there is no doubt the India VFR market is price sensitive (or rather used to cheap fares), India still has a lot of higher value pax. It’s sort of like China where US corporates help make US3 flights work inspire of cheap Chinese carrier flights.


There has been ample opportunity to do so and yet it has not materialized.

I mean, most airlines aren't stupid. If it was a glaring gold mine, it would have been filled.
2018 : AUA | CLT | IAH | HOU | DFW | COS | DEN | CLL | ORD | PVG | PEK | PHX | OAK | SFO | SJC | PHL | YYC | STL | DTW | HNL | OGG | JFK | LGA
 
dmstorm22
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:11 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
With WOW and the like starting India, JFK-BOM because even more important. There is no question that premium traffic exists between JFK and India (with BOM being a key destination). Being able to offer nonstop to BOM and then one stop to a ton of cities in India with 9W should allow DL/9W to charge a premium to their respective FFs. While there is no doubt the India VFR market is price sensitive (or rather used to cheap fares), India still has a lot of higher value pax. It’s sort of like China where US corporates help make US3 flights work inspire of cheap Chinese carrier flights.


NYC is probably the only route that could work, but I just can't see it. The only real connections taht have an inherent advantage going non-stop to BOM are tertiery cicties, as the ME3 fly to most secondary cities now (and even LH/BA fly to a few secondary cities like BLR and MAA).

As many have said, yields to India are awful. UA has made it work because they have tons of feed, enough corporate J passengers who pay high, and VFR that can close to fill the back of the plane every day. I also believe UA has gained decent cache in BOM and DEL to fly Indians the reverse on trips to the US.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:28 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL DTW-India is 100% not happening. Like others have said, the fares on most US-India markets are very low.

Here'e s tell-tale example: Fares are cheaper to India that most of Europe.

DL DTW-AMS roundtrip 6/4-6/11, roundtrip in Y $1,547
DL DTW-AMS-BOM, BOM-CDG-DTW; roundtrip in Y $2,200


I actually had my fares backwards:

DL DTW-AMS roundtrip 6/4-6/11, roundtrip in Y ~$2,200
DL DTW-AMS-BOM, BOM-CDG-DTW; roundtrip in Y $1,547

Hence the point, you can fly to BOM cheaper than AMS, even connecting in AMS on the same flights.
No way DL is adding US-India service nonstop, too long, too low yield.
 
blrsea
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:30 am

The new agreement with UAE was more about 5th freedom rights. Nothing changes on the connecting market through DXB to Indian subcontinent/Africa. If DL is really thinking about non-stops to India, it was probably in the works for a long time before this agreement. Nothing in the current agreement provides a fillip to that.

With fuel costs rising, I doubt DL is now interested in the ULH non-stops to India. If it crosses $80 per barrel as some have predicted, even AI and ME3 will come under pressure on their ULH flights. Maybe DL is looking at more code-share with other partners to India.
 
Deltran757
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:38 am

jbs2886 wrote:
And this thread has officially been ruined by the exact same poster that ruins any other DL thread.


Amen to that :roll:
To see the world... One plane at a time
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 3:11 am

Delta flew JFK-BOM and it was a dud. They even tried moving it to ATL and it failed there too.

I still say the yields are exceptionally low for how many miles and plane time they take up. Look at airfares and how tough the ME3 are on India from NA. They know the market and what people book, its a super super price sensitive route. Theres no money to be made, expenses are just too high and airfares too low on connections. Delta is just talking because they hate the ME3, they know the market is worse now then when they pulled out of India.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 3:16 am

They could make DXB, KWI, DEL, RUH or JED work. Might be tough competing with EK at DXB but EK doesn't have such an extensive network in North America.
 
777Mech
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 4:23 am

klm617 wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
Put me in the camp that thinks this is just a PR exercise, since on paper nothing has changed regarding the viability of US-Middle East/South Asia flights. But any expansion will still be good to see.

klm617 wrote:
Let's face it Delta is really not as successful as people think in Asia they are a distant 3rd as far as the US3 are concerned

By what measure?



One indication would be from the west coast they operate the smallest gauge possible not to mention they don't even sustain a nonstop from their second largest international hub the biggest city in the USA with the biggest city in Asia that says it all right there.


What aircraft operates LAX-HND/PVG and tell me if that's the smallest gauge possible.

If DL is doing so bad TPAC, maybe they should close down DTW. Make that airport look like the rest of that rundown city.
 
doug_or
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 4:33 am

jbs2886 wrote:
And this thread has officially been ruined by the exact same poster that ruins any other DL thread.


Click on his username and then select "foe". All posts will be blocked and you'll only see what he says when someone not blocked quotes his text.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 5:08 am

Jayafe wrote:
And get a top up bunch of A359s to support the move

Certainly wouldn't be surprised if they get a few 280T post-2020 A359s to replace the 77Ls as they age.

Personally have some glimmer of hope that they'd go for 778 instead, but high-MTOW A359 seems to have the inside track there.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
BOMFlyer
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 6:13 am

Are people forgetting that the A359 is much more fuel efficient than the 77Ls that Delta used to use for its India nonstops? The routes did not work back then, but they might work now because it's cheaper to operate. Also, operating nonstop from JFK to India can provide one-stop flights to smaller cities in the US that aren't served from AMS or CDG.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 10:55 am

BOMFlyer wrote:
Are people forgetting that the A359 is much more fuel efficient than the 77Ls that Delta used to use for its India nonstops? The routes did not work back then, but they might work now because it's cheaper to operate. Also, operating nonstop from JFK to India can provide one-stop flights to smaller cities in the US that aren't served from AMS or CDG.


CDG is connected to ~35 North American stations. How many domestic connections DL can offer from JFK? How many domestic connections 9W can offer from BOM/DEL.

A non-stop in reality ends up being two-stop, last mile on a nasty RJ from JFK. No match to a A330/A350 experience from CDG/AMS.

ME3 maxed out at 12 US stations. BA/AA serves probably 21 NA stations. SkyTeam has an advantage without wasting money and efforts on ULH flights.

JFK and ORD turned into sanctuary airports for state-owned subsidized carriers. They are dumping capacity. Expecting high yields in any class is a myth.
 
ThomasCook
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 11:48 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Absolutely nothing changed other than the ME3 promising to open up the books even more than they had already done.


That will show how much Emirates Airline paid Emirates Flight Catering, Dubai Airports. dnata and Dubai ATF suppliers. Emirates Airline has to pay for terminal construction.

Delta can operate any number of India ULH flights profitably if it doesn't need pay airport fees,federal/state/city taxes, food and gas at home base and if FAA allows 3-person crew on ULH, just pay at remote stations and claim well run.


You love to trade on lies and misinformation, don't you? All EK ULH sectors are operated with 4 crew - 2 augmented for a total of; 2 Captain's, 2 F/Os. For your reference, EK gave all of its crew a 5-week bonus and 5% flight pay and 5% base pay rise last week following these results. Clearly, they have no money and its all lies right?
 
lavalampluva
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 12:49 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
BOMFlyer wrote:
Are people forgetting that the A359 is much more fuel efficient than the 77Ls that Delta used to use for its India nonstops? The routes did not work back then, but they might work now because it's cheaper to operate. Also, operating nonstop from JFK to India can provide one-stop flights to smaller cities in the US that aren't served from AMS or CDG.


CDG is connected to ~35 North American stations. How many domestic connections DL can offer from JFK? How many domestic connections 9W can offer from BOM/DEL.

A non-stop in reality ends up being two-stop, last mile on a nasty RJ from JFK. No match to a A330/A350 experience from CDG/AMS.

ME3 maxed out at 12 US stations. BA/AA serves probably 21 NA stations. SkyTeam has an advantage without wasting money and efforts on ULH flights.

JFK and ORD turned into sanctuary airports for state-owned subsidized carriers. They are dumping capacity. Expecting high yields in any class is a myth.

But DL can offer opportunities to more cities via ATL/DTW/MSP than JFK. But JFK probably has a highest number of local pax who would be onboard.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:04 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
...
But DL can offer opportunities to more cities via ATL/DTW/MSP than JFK. But JFK probably has a highest number of local pax who would be onboard.


With entire US well connected to CDG/AMS, no single US hub can offer same level of connections/feed. Keep in mind US hubs are fragmented. Even SkyTeams European hubs are somewhat fragmented.

JFK has more capacity than its market. DL cannot offer anything new other than Premium O&D just to SkyTeam frequent flyers. Keep in mind UA already has non-stop service to DEL and BOM

Can DL match the floor set by CN3,TK,ME3 and AI, still achieve higher yields? Absolutely no.
 
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enilria
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:10 pm

klm617 wrote:
DWC wrote:
enilria wrote:
But, to be fair, WOW is subsidized by...(wait thinking of something, uhhhhh...) Icelandic North Sea oil money!!!! How about that? That sounds good.

LAX772LR wrote:
Yikes! :eek: Their fare didn't even show up, as I only looked 3days out. But yeah, even more to the point, if they're going to suppress yields like that.

WOW ! Everyone sheepishly zero-ed on the fare & failed to check that for that smoke screen you still have to buy yourself a seat, food, a luggage allowance & a long stayover in KEF unless you planned to hop to the Blue Lagoon & bathe in volcanic simmering waters while you wait in bliss for your connection... For a few dollars more you get a treat on TK or LX. And for more details :
https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/05/15/wow-air-delhi/


Yes but TK and LX don't serve my city. A better example would have been pricing flights out from STL or PIT. BOS is the closest point to KEF in the USA that WOW Air serves and has plenty of competition so again we can share data and examples to show what ever results we want.

Even with the fees it is still as cheap as a flight to the beach in peak season, and it is instead the other side of the earth. A good deal under any scenario. I get that people don't like the add on fees, but have you flown in Basic Economy? You can't even pay to get a seat assignment, and it still costs a lot more than this at the same seat pitch.
 
tphuang
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:20 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
With WOW and the like starting India, JFK-BOM because even more important. There is no question that premium traffic exists between JFK and India (with BOM being a key destination). Being able to offer nonstop to BOM and then one stop to a ton of cities in India with 9W should allow DL/9W to charge a premium to their respective FFs. While there is no doubt the India VFR market is price sensitive (or rather used to cheap fares), India still has a lot of higher value pax. It’s sort of like China where US corporates help make US3 flights work inspire of cheap Chinese carrier flights.

And that group flies me3. Ek has a huge reputation as a high quality premium carrier amongst India expats.

And us to china on us3 are huge money loosing pits.

Us to Asia market outside of maybe Tokyo, hk and Singapore are not going to be high yielding anytime soon.
 
IndyHoosier
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:35 am

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:22 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
And this thread has officially been ruined by the exact same poster that ruins any other DL thread.


Agreed. It is quite annoying.
 
ScrantonUSC
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:49 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:23 pm

Given Delta's track record on being very methodical, not taking risks, and putting profits above all else, why is every body assuming that Delta is bullshitting here? Does anybody actually think that Delta would restart a route(s) which they know will lose money just to save face to the very small percentage of people that actually followed their little charade against the ME3?
 
tphuang
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 1:23 pm

Also keep in mind that the wealthy Indian expats Are far more likely to live in jersey rather than queens and Brooklyn. They are going to fly out of Newark. THats why dl jfk to India flights don’t work.

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