FSDan
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:00 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
CDG is connected to ~35 North American stations. How many domestic connections DL can offer from JFK? How many domestic connections 9W can offer from BOM/DEL.

A non-stop in reality ends up being two-stop, last mile on a nasty RJ from JFK. No match to a A330/A350 experience from CDG/AMS.


North American markets served by DL from JFK this summer that don't have a SkyTeam connection to either CDG or AMS:
SJC, SAN, LAS, PHX, DEN, SAT, AUS, DFW, MSY, CLE, CMH, BNA, FLL, PBI, TPA, JAX, SAV, CHS, CLT, RIC, ORF, DCA, BWI, PHL, BUF, ROC, SYR, BTV, PWM, BGR, BDA, NAS, PLS, MBJ, STI, SJU, STT, SKB, GND.

Obviously the ability for people to connect from these markets to a potential JFK-India route would depend on flight timings, but this is a pretty decent list of markets (some quite large) that would gain new connectivity to India on SkyTeam with a potential new JFK-India service.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 440
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:29 pm

tphuang wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
With WOW and the like starting India, JFK-BOM because even more important. There is no question that premium traffic exists between JFK and India (with BOM being a key destination). Being able to offer nonstop to BOM and then one stop to a ton of cities in India with 9W should allow DL/9W to charge a premium to their respective FFs. While there is no doubt the India VFR market is price sensitive (or rather used to cheap fares), India still has a lot of higher value pax. It’s sort of like China where US corporates help make US3 flights work inspire of cheap Chinese carrier flights.

And that group flies me3. Ek has a huge reputation as a high quality premium carrier amongst India expats.

And us to china on us3 are huge money loosing pits.

Us to Asia market outside of maybe Tokyo, hk and Singapore are not going to be high yielding anytime soon.


I am sort of amazed that people think the US-India market is so homogenous of just low price VFR. While VFR is definitely a good chunk of the traffic, there is much more to India-US traffic than just that. Also India-US has pretty high traffic volumes (agreed not US-France but more than US-Israel I believe). Look the ME3 do absolutely NOTHING for DL and 9W frequent fliers. On the US side, there are plenty of professional Indians who travel for work and are aligned with an alliance. Same goes on the BOM side. BOM is well suited for the nonstop because on both the JFK and BOM end you have big corporations (read bankers, tech, conglomerates), rich people and VFR who have reached a stage in their life when paying for comfort of a nonstop is worth it. I get that people all know some Indian America who told them they saved $300 so they flew via Kuwait or something. Here's a shocker - there are many Indian-Americans, especially those that immigrated in the 60's and 70's, who do not want to fly via the Gulf. They do not want to land at 3am and make their families have to pick them up in the middle of the night. There are also plenty of people traveling to their smaller home towns. These people also want to land at a reasonable time so that they can connect or drive to their home towns in daylight. I don't believe the issue with JFK-BOM is yield (because J will do just fine), it's the transatlantic JV. The US3 and the EU airlines need India traffic to help keep US-EU frequencies going (especially in non peak times). That need has always outweighed the need to actually serve the US-India market properly. That is where AI and the ME3 exploited. Any way let's see what DL announces. Could be nothing or could be JFK-BOM on 9W metal (which is what I think it will be) I would guess timings will be like a 3:30pm departure form JFK (rather than 7pm) with 4pm BOM arrival (rather than 1am) and a 10pm departure from BOM (rather than 3am) with a 5am arrival in JFK (rather than noon). These are the timings that some people going to India prefer.
 
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spinotter
Posts: 211
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:30 pm

IndyHoosier wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
And this thread has officially been ruined by the exact same poster that ruins any other DL thread.


Agreed. It is quite annoying.


I don't understand how a thread can be ruined by a poster. If you disagree, all the better marshaling of argumentation, facts, claims, and counterclaims. We will see what if any new routes to the Mideast and India Delta inaugurates in the near future. I am somewhat skeptical myself about DL metal to these places. But I am ready to be happily surprised!
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:34 pm

spinotter wrote:
IndyHoosier wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
And this thread has officially been ruined by the exact same poster that ruins any other DL thread.


Agreed. It is quite annoying.


I don't understand how a thread can be ruined by a poster. If you disagree, all the better marshaling of argumentation, facts, claims, and counterclaims. We will see what if any new routes to the Mideast and India Delta inaugurates in the near future. I am somewhat skeptical myself about DL metal to these places. But I am ready to be happily surprised!


How? By a poster constantly posting nonsense, requiring more people to respond. I then unsubscribe from the thread because I don't want alerts on it. Further, if you don't know this posters history, as many people do given by the responses, then you don't understand how this is a consistent problem.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:44 pm

WOW just lanuched a $199 each way fare sale to New Dehli from North America! The flight is timed to connect to almost all of their cities. WOW comfy Seats are also on sale at very affordable prices if you want more space.
 
tphuang
Posts: 1942
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:47 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
With WOW and the like starting India, JFK-BOM because even more important. There is no question that premium traffic exists between JFK and India (with BOM being a key destination). Being able to offer nonstop to BOM and then one stop to a ton of cities in India with 9W should allow DL/9W to charge a premium to their respective FFs. While there is no doubt the India VFR market is price sensitive (or rather used to cheap fares), India still has a lot of higher value pax. It’s sort of like China where US corporates help make US3 flights work inspire of cheap Chinese carrier flights.

And that group flies me3. Ek has a huge reputation as a high quality premium carrier amongst India expats.

And us to china on us3 are huge money loosing pits.

Us to Asia market outside of maybe Tokyo, hk and Singapore are not going to be high yielding anytime soon.


I am sort of amazed that people think the US-India market is so homogenous of just low price VFR. While VFR is definitely a good chunk of the traffic, there is much more to India-US traffic than just that. Also India-US has pretty high traffic volumes (agreed not US-France but more than US-Israel I believe). Look the ME3 do absolutely NOTHING for DL and 9W frequent fliers. On the US side, there are plenty of professional Indians who travel for work and are aligned with an alliance. Same goes on the BOM side. BOM is well suited for the nonstop because on both the JFK and BOM end you have big corporations (read bankers, tech, conglomerates), rich people and VFR who have reached a stage in their life when paying for comfort of a nonstop is worth it. I get that people all know some Indian America who told them they saved $300 so they flew via Kuwait or something. Here's a shocker - there are many Indian-Americans, especially those that immigrated in the 60's and 70's, who do not want to fly via the Gulf. They do not want to land at 3am and make their families have to pick them up in the middle of the night. There are also plenty of people traveling to their smaller home towns. These people also want to land at a reasonable time so that they can connect or drive to their home towns in daylight. I don't believe the issue with JFK-BOM is yield (because J will do just fine), it's the transatlantic JV. The US3 and the EU airlines need India traffic to help keep US-EU frequencies going (especially in non peak times). That need has always outweighed the need to actually serve the US-India market properly. That is where AI and the ME3 exploited. Any way let's see what DL announces. Could be nothing or could be JFK-BOM on 9W metal (which is what I think it will be) I would guess timings will be like a 3:30pm departure form JFK (rather than 7pm) with 4pm BOM arrival (rather than 1am) and a 10pm departure from BOM (rather than 3am) with a 5am arrival in JFK (rather than noon). These are the timings that some people going to India prefer.

Yes, they have money now. So they fly ek. And those that live in Jersey will fly out of ewr or even phl.

Ek has an extremely great product catered to Indian tastes and has built loyalty in the Indian community. They don’t just win on price. All of my earning Indian colleagues fly ek back to India.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:50 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
...
I am sort of amazed that people think the US-India market is so homogenous of just low price VFR...


I admire your continued effort to educate a.net. You should realize a.net cannot comprehend the fact that a non-alcoholic, vegetarian Indian granny with limited spoken English can afford business class.
 
tphuang
Posts: 1942
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 2:54 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
...
I am sort of amazed that people think the US-India market is so homogenous of just low price VFR...


I admire your continued effort to educate a.net. You should realize a.net cannot comprehend the fact that a non-alcoholic, vegetarian Indian granny with limited spoken English can afford business class.

Which they can buy on EK. And if they are really stuck up, they can enjoy their time in the second deck of A380 and not even have to look at those flying in coach class.
 
klm617
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 3:29 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
...
I am sort of amazed that people think the US-India market is so homogenous of just low price VFR...


I admire your continued effort to educate a.net. You should realize a.net cannot comprehend the fact that a non-alcoholic, vegetarian Indian granny with limited spoken English can afford business class.


There are a lot of things that a.net can't grasp I assure you.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5357
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 3:50 pm

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
...
I am sort of amazed that people think the US-India market is so homogenous of just low price VFR...


I admire your continued effort to educate a.net. You should realize a.net cannot comprehend the fact that a non-alcoholic, vegetarian Indian granny with limited spoken English can afford business class.


There are a lot of things that a.net can't grasp I assure you.


Excuse me? Are you implying that you educate people who are clearly more informed?
Next flight: IAH-UIO-IAH on UA in Y
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 4:05 pm

ScrantonUSC wrote:
Given Delta's track record on being very methodical, not taking risks, and putting profits above all else, why is every body assuming that Delta is bullshitting here? Does anybody actually think that Delta would restart a route(s) which they know will lose money just to save face to the very small percentage of people that actually followed their little charade against the ME3?

Well, no... which is why so many people are saying that they don't believe a nonstop will start any time soon if ever.


spinotter wrote:
I don't understand how a thread can be ruined by a poster. If you disagree, all the better marshaling of argumentation, facts, claims, and counterclaims.

That's predicated on the assumption that the person in question deals in fact... or even in reality.
It's been shown that that's not the case.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
flyfresno
Posts: 611
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 4:05 pm

FSDan wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
CDG is connected to ~35 North American stations. How many domestic connections DL can offer from JFK? How many domestic connections 9W can offer from BOM/DEL.

A non-stop in reality ends up being two-stop, last mile on a nasty RJ from JFK. No match to a A330/A350 experience from CDG/AMS.


North American markets served by DL from JFK this summer that don't have a SkyTeam connection to either CDG or AMS:
SJC, SAN, LAS, PHX, DEN, SAT, AUS, DFW, MSY, CLE, CMH, BNA, FLL, PBI, TPA, JAX, SAV, CHS, CLT, RIC, ORF, DCA, BWI, PHL, BUF, ROC, SYR, BTV, PWM, BGR, BDA, NAS, PLS, MBJ, STI, SJU, STT, SKB, GND.

Obviously the ability for people to connect from these markets to a potential JFK-India route would depend on flight timings, but this is a pretty decent list of markets (some quite large) that would gain new connectivity to India on SkyTeam with a potential new JFK-India service.


You can basicalky pull most of the caribbean leisure markets off that list in so far as India is concerned though, I would imagine there wouldn’t be more than 1 or 2 pax combined between them per flight to India, if that...
 
subramak1
Posts: 129
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 4:50 pm

mcogator wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
US-India is very long and low yielding. The ME3 and soon WOW in the market, the economics will be worse than the last time delta tried it. I just don't see delta making a ton of money in that sector.

Wow I think has almost endless potential on North america-india, delta I think has very little real potential to make money.

Exactly, and the pax don't pay for J ejther, even though they can afford it. My exwife is a CPA and a few of her clients made annual trips to India to see family. These clients are high net worth/income, ie a cardiologist making $800k/yr with $12 million in liquid asset, and they never, ever pay for J. They will always select the cheapest Y ticket, even though they're older and have the money to afford it. I'm sure the US3 are ok with leaving that market to the ME3.


While that is one anecdote, my observation on BA flight from HYD to LHR in 2016 was quite different. The business class was mostly with Indian families travelling back to states except for 1 or 2 non Indians on the flight.

BA is not liberal with award tickets but does offer many $ 3K round trips in J class to India. Cathay does the same with $ 4 k round trips to India from SFO / ORD/ LAX.

BA is supposed to be full in F class out of Bom/ Del and so is LH.

I think DL can offer a non stop service to DEL from JFK or ATL and should have a profitable addition to its network or get Jet to operate a service from BOM/DEL to JFK.

I am basing on the size of Indian economy today as compared to 10 years ago.

The size of the Indian economy, it is $ 2.5 trillion at the latest count and in PPP is around $ 10 trillion. The senior executives of Private sector and MNC companies in India travel in business class today which was not the case 10 years ago when they would have been lucky to be in W class.

There are over 250 publicly listed companies with a revenue of over $ 1 billion. The number of private companies and Indian operations of multinationals would double that number. This is not as big as US or China , but would probably be close to UK in terms of business traffic. Granted India does not have the a financial center the size of even Hong Kong but the economy is sizable now to support a strong J class traffic out of BOM/DEL/ BLR and to some extend MAA( due to the manufacturing base).

Subu
 
subramak1
Posts: 129
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 4:55 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
With WOW and the like starting India, JFK-BOM because even more important. There is no question that premium traffic exists between JFK and India (with BOM being a key destination). Being able to offer nonstop to BOM and then one stop to a ton of cities in India with 9W should allow DL/9W to charge a premium to their respective FFs. While there is no doubt the India VFR market is price sensitive (or rather used to cheap fares), India still has a lot of higher value pax. It’s sort of like China where US corporates help make US3 flights work inspire of cheap Chinese carrier flights.

And that group flies me3. Ek has a huge reputation as a high quality premium carrier amongst India expats.

And us to china on us3 are huge money loosing pits.

Us to Asia market outside of maybe Tokyo, hk and Singapore are not going to be high yielding anytime soon.


I am sort of amazed that people think the US-India market is so homogenous of just low price VFR. While VFR is definitely a good chunk of the traffic, there is much more to India-US traffic than just that. Also India-US has pretty high traffic volumes (agreed not US-France but more than US-Israel I believe). Look the ME3 do absolutely NOTHING for DL and 9W frequent fliers. On the US side, there are plenty of professional Indians who travel for work and are aligned with an alliance. Same goes on the BOM side. BOM is well suited for the nonstop because on both the JFK and BOM end you have big corporations (read bankers, tech, conglomerates), rich people and VFR who have reached a stage in their life when paying for comfort of a nonstop is worth it. I get that people all know some Indian America who told them they saved $300 so they flew via Kuwait or something. Here's a shocker - there are many Indian-Americans, especially those that immigrated in the 60's and 70's, who do not want to fly via the Gulf. They do not want to land at 3am and make their families have to pick them up in the middle of the night. There are also plenty of people traveling to their smaller home towns. These people also want to land at a reasonable time so that they can connect or drive to their home towns in daylight. I don't believe the issue with JFK-BOM is yield (because J will do just fine), it's the transatlantic JV. The US3 and the EU airlines need India traffic to help keep US-EU frequencies going (especially in non peak times). That need has always outweighed the need to actually serve the US-India market properly. That is where AI and the ME3 exploited. Any way let's see what DL announces. Could be nothing or could be JFK-BOM on 9W metal (which is what I think it will be) I would guess timings will be like a 3:30pm departure form JFK (rather than 7pm) with 4pm BOM arrival (rather than 1am) and a 10pm departure from BOM (rather than 3am) with a 5am arrival in JFK (rather than noon). These are the timings that some people going to India prefer.


Exactly - and India VFR traffic is more high income than people realize

Subu
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 4033
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 5:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
BOMFlyer wrote:
Are people forgetting that the A359 is much more fuel efficient than the 77Ls that Delta used to use for its India nonstops? The routes did not work back then, but they might work now because it's cheaper to operate. Also, operating nonstop from JFK to India can provide one-stop flights to smaller cities in the US that aren't served from AMS or CDG.


CDG is connected to ~35 North American stations.


I see your point but I don't get anything like 35 destinations non-stop to CDG (looking at an AF route map). I don't think one should include Caribbean destinations but even then I couldn't get more than 22. Can you fill us in?

As for dissing JFK, lots of major U.S. airports get DL mainline to JFK.
 
klm617
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 5:15 pm

spinotter wrote:
IndyHoosier wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
And this thread has officially been ruined by the exact same poster that ruins any other DL thread.


Agreed. It is quite annoying.


I don't understand how a thread can be ruined by a poster. If you disagree, all the better marshaling of argumentation, facts, claims, and counterclaims. We will see what if any new routes to the Mideast and India Delta inaugurates in the near future. I am somewhat skeptical myself about DL metal to these places. But I am ready to be happily surprised!



Yes I agree that would be the mature way to deal with it.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 4033
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 5:15 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
BOMFlyer wrote:
Are people forgetting that the A359 is much more fuel efficient than the 77Ls that Delta used to use for its India nonstops? The routes did not work back then, but they might work now because it's cheaper to operate. Also, operating nonstop from JFK to India can provide one-stop flights to smaller cities in the US that aren't served from AMS or CDG.


CDG is connected to ~35 North American stations.


I see your point but I don't get anything like 35 destinations non-stop to CDG (looking at an AF + DL route maps). I don't think one should include Caribbean destinations but even then I couldn't get near 35.Can you fill us in?

As for dissing JFK, lots of major U.S. airports get DL mainline to JFK.
 
aircal62
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 2:08 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 5:39 pm

Why is everyone focusing on India, there are other routes which may be announced. I do not see DL returning to India soon, I do see other routes however
 
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flymco753
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 5:45 pm

aircal62 wrote:
Why is everyone focusing on India, there are other routes which may be announced. I do not see DL returning to India soon, I do see other routes however
ATL-DXB. Perhaps JFK/ATL-IST?
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
twicearound
Posts: 58
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Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 5:55 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
DL used to have a flight from the US to BOM via AMS.

They have a lot more exposure to India than that.

DL has flown its own metal on FRA-BOM, CDG-BOM, CDG-MAA, JFK-BOM, ATL-BOM, and AMS-BOM.

...all having operated during the '00s or beyond.


Not to mention all the NWA India flying done pre-merger which all falls under the DL umbrella now
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6078
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 6:05 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
BOMFlyer wrote:
Are people forgetting that the A359 is much more fuel efficient than the 77Ls that Delta used to use for its India nonstops? The routes did not work back then, but they might work now because it's cheaper to operate. Also, operating nonstop from JFK to India can provide one-stop flights to smaller cities in the US that aren't served from AMS or CDG.


CDG is connected to ~35 North American stations.


I see your point but I don't get anything like 35 destinations non-stop to CDG (looking at an AF route map). I don't think one should include Caribbean destinations but even then I couldn't get more than 22. Can you fill us in?

As for dissing JFK, lots of major U.S. airports get DL mainline to JFK.


Supposed to say CDG/AMS/LHR.

There is no dissing JFK, a JFK-India non-stop probably serves NYC area Delta Medallions. All major airport are well covered, there is no need to connect thru JFK.

Also, Delta no way can compete or command high-yields with $400 WOW, $500 Chinese, $700 Turkish and $800 ME3/AI fares.
 
Antarius
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 6:11 pm

subramak1 wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:
And that group flies me3. Ek has a huge reputation as a high quality premium carrier amongst India expats.

And us to china on us3 are huge money loosing pits.

Us to Asia market outside of maybe Tokyo, hk and Singapore are not going to be high yielding anytime soon.


I am sort of amazed that people think the US-India market is so homogenous of just low price VFR. While VFR is definitely a good chunk of the traffic, there is much more to India-US traffic than just that. Also India-US has pretty high traffic volumes (agreed not US-France but more than US-Israel I believe). Look the ME3 do absolutely NOTHING for DL and 9W frequent fliers. On the US side, there are plenty of professional Indians who travel for work and are aligned with an alliance. Same goes on the BOM side. BOM is well suited for the nonstop because on both the JFK and BOM end you have big corporations (read bankers, tech, conglomerates), rich people and VFR who have reached a stage in their life when paying for comfort of a nonstop is worth it. I get that people all know some Indian America who told them they saved $300 so they flew via Kuwait or something. Here's a shocker - there are many Indian-Americans, especially those that immigrated in the 60's and 70's, who do not want to fly via the Gulf. They do not want to land at 3am and make their families have to pick them up in the middle of the night. There are also plenty of people traveling to their smaller home towns. These people also want to land at a reasonable time so that they can connect or drive to their home towns in daylight. I don't believe the issue with JFK-BOM is yield (because J will do just fine), it's the transatlantic JV. The US3 and the EU airlines need India traffic to help keep US-EU frequencies going (especially in non peak times). That need has always outweighed the need to actually serve the US-India market properly. That is where AI and the ME3 exploited. Any way let's see what DL announces. Could be nothing or could be JFK-BOM on 9W metal (which is what I think it will be) I would guess timings will be like a 3:30pm departure form JFK (rather than 7pm) with 4pm BOM arrival (rather than 1am) and a 10pm departure from BOM (rather than 3am) with a 5am arrival in JFK (rather than noon). These are the timings that some people going to India prefer.


Exactly - and India VFR traffic is more high income than people realize

Subu


Yet the non stops are and have been limited.

Either DL is not smart about routes and making money (their profits say otherwise) or the market isnt the gold mine it is professed to be nonstop.

Occams Razor indicates the former.
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6078
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 6:32 pm

Antarius wrote:
Yet the non stops are and have been limited.

Either DL is not smart about routes and making money (their profits say otherwise) or the market isnt the gold mine it is professed to be nonstop.

Occams Razor indicates the former.


Not that simple. You have to look at cost side along with price pressure from competition.

Here are few differentiating cost factors
JFK-BOM is ~2 hrs more flying than JFK-DXB. That adds lot of dead weight and fuel burn.
Rostering 2 set unionized crew under FAA/FDTL costs a lot more than 3 person non-union crew under GCAA rules. (someone is going to back to 3-person, check latest comments)
Overflight restrictions specific to US carriers
JFK will not offer any incentives to Delta.
NY City, NY State and USA are not tax free regimes.
 
Antarius
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 6:43 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Yet the non stops are and have been limited.

Either DL is not smart about routes and making money (their profits say otherwise) or the market isnt the gold mine it is professed to be nonstop.

Occams Razor indicates the former.


Not that simple. You have to look at cost side along with price pressure from competition.

Here are few differentiating cost factors
JFK-BOM is ~2 hrs more flying than JFK-DXB. That adds lot of dead weight and fuel burn.
Rostering 2 set unionized crew under FAA/FDTL costs a lot more than 3 person non-union crew under GCAA rules. (someone is going to back to 3-person, check latest comments)
Overflight restrictions specific to US carriers
JFK will not offer any incentives to Delta.
NY City, NY State and USA are not tax free regimes.


Of course we have to look at the competition. The point being made above is that the yields aren't high enough to justify that extra distance for a ULH.

If the yields were good enough, then we would see a flurry of action despite the one stops.
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
msycajun
Posts: 867
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:13 am

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 6:55 pm

It seems to me that DL would make more money adding more routes to CDG/AMS from mid-sized metros rather than flying from the US to the Middle East/India. They would better be able to command a premium fare and get big incentive bucks and revenue guarantees. That would also open up way more one-stop itineraries than an ULH to JFK. They have a track record of cornering smaller markets rather than duking it out in low-fare highly competitive markets - see RDU, CVG, IND, PDX. And lately they have been lagging behind BA, DY, DE, and the Icelandic carriers.
 
ASA
Posts: 1046
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:12 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 7:05 pm

Just returned from BOS-DXB-DAC on EK ... and a separate DAC-DEL-CCU-DAC on 9W, which is a DL partner.

The BOS-DXB segments on both directions were overwhelmingly (80%+) people visiting to/from India.
They are sending families, students, workers, and some I believe, are tourists. (ALL PUNS INTENDED :biggrin:)

Wondering if DL could preempt others into a BOS-India flight (in joint venture with 9W perhaps)?
They are very focused on expanding the BOS footprint and this would be a new one for them ...
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 7:41 pm

tphuang wrote:
Also keep in mind that the wealthy Indian expats Are far more likely to live in jersey rather than queens and Brooklyn. They are going to fly out of Newark. THats why dl jfk to India flights don’t work.


Same wealthy Indians often will go to JFK to fly one-stop. Remember until very recently all ME3 ops were based in JFK (leave aside old EK/QR flights to EWR in the 00s).

I agree that there are more 'wealthy' Indians in NJ, and UA is able to capture the market, but I don't think that is the only difference as to why UA seemingly has able to make it work and DL did not/is not.

Of course, we aren't sure how well UAs EWR-BOM/DEL routes are doing, but anecdotally it has done well, and has had uninterrupted service for years now.
 
jfern022
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 7:55 pm

tphuang wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
With WOW and the like starting India, JFK-BOM because even more important. There is no question that premium traffic exists between JFK and India (with BOM being a key destination). Being able to offer nonstop to BOM and then one stop to a ton of cities in India with 9W should allow DL/9W to charge a premium to their respective FFs. While there is no doubt the India VFR market is price sensitive (or rather used to cheap fares), India still has a lot of higher value pax. It’s sort of like China where US corporates help make US3 flights work inspire of cheap Chinese carrier flights.

And that group flies me3. Ek has a huge reputation as a high quality premium carrier amongst India expats.

And us to china on us3 are huge money loosing pits.

Us to Asia market outside of maybe Tokyo, hk and Singapore are not going to be high yielding anytime soon.


Do you have the financials on those Asia routes? You work for one of the carriers? Or are you just speculating silliness like everyone else on this board?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 4033
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 7:56 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

CDG is connected to ~35 North American stations.


I see your point but I don't get anything like 35 destinations non-stop to CDG (looking at an AF route map). I don't think one should include Caribbean destinations but even then I couldn't get more than 22. Can you fill us in?

As for dissing JFK, lots of major U.S. airports get DL mainline to JFK.


Supposed to say CDG/AMS/LHR.

There is no dissing JFK, a JFK-India non-stop probably serves NYC area Delta Medallions. All major airport are well covered, there is no need to connect thru JFK.

Also, Delta no way can compete or command high-yields with $400 WOW, $500 Chinese, $700 Turkish and $800 ME3/AI fares.


I still don't think there are 35 unique origins in North America to CDG/AMS/LHR (unless you include Caribbean, which seems fairly irrelevant for travel to India).

I understand where you're going with this (compare one-stops to one-stops), but the scissor hub solution isn't great for NYC travelers. It's the biggest international market. I expect it's the biggest market USA-India, although if the data gurus want to correct me, have at it.

If anyone really likes the scissor hub idea, Jet Airways shouldn't start flying to MAN -- it should be adding new India origins to CDG or AMS or LHR. That will leverage one-stop service to DL/AF/KL or VS destinations in NA if timed right.
 
jfern022
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 7:57 pm

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
...
I am sort of amazed that people think the US-India market is so homogenous of just low price VFR...


I admire your continued effort to educate a.net. You should realize a.net cannot comprehend the fact that a non-alcoholic, vegetarian Indian granny with limited spoken English can afford business class.


There are a lot of things that a.net can't grasp I assure you.


Yeah, like the whole aviation world does not revolve around Detroit. Even if you are just trolling, it makes you look very childish and immature.
 
User avatar
NickolayAv
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:44 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 8:21 pm

ASA wrote:
Just returned from BOS-DXB-DAC on EK ... and a separate DAC-DEL-CCU-DAC on 9W, which is a DL partner.

The BOS-DXB segments on both directions were overwhelmingly (80%+) people visiting to/from India.
They are sending families, students, workers, and some I believe, are tourists. (ALL PUNS INTENDED :biggrin:)

Wondering if DL could preempt others into a BOS-India flight (in joint venture with 9W perhaps)?
They are very focused on expanding the BOS footprint and this would be a new one for them ...

Not likely. They would need to operate the departure and arrival from Terminal E, because Terminal A doesn't have gates for 77L or A350 (I assume DL would have to use one of them on the route). Additionally, they need would need to price them very low, to compete with 2 gulf carriers. A lot of people do prefer direct flights over one-stop options, but I just don't think that DL would be able to keep prices that low on the flight and make it economically viable. Would love to be proven wrong though.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6078
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 8:45 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
I still don't think there are 35 unique origins in North America to CDG/AMS/LHR (unless you include Caribbean, which seems fairly irrelevant for travel to India).


Here is the list, bit old from when DL got into bed with 9W.

Atlanta, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
Austin, DLAMS
Boston, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
Charlotte, DLAMS
Chicago, DLCDG
Cincinnati, DLCDG
Columbus, DLAMS
Detroit, DLCDG,AF,KL,DLLHR
Denver, DLAMS
Houston, AF
Los Angeles AF
Las Vegas, DLAMS
Miami, AF,KL
Minneapolis, DLCDG,KL,,DLLHR
Newark, DLCDG
New York, DLCDG, AF,DLLHR
Orlando, DLAMS
Pittsburgh, DLCDG
Philadelphia, DLCDG,DLLHR
Phoenix, DLAMS
Portland, KL,DLLHR
Raleigh-Durham, DLCDG
Salt Lake City DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
San Diego, DLAMS
San Francisco, AF
Seattle, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
St. Louis, DLAMS
Tampa, DLAMS
Washington AF
Calgary KL
Edmonton KL
Vancouver AF
Montreal AF
Mexico City AF,KL

Looking at this list and the fact that DL literally showing ropes to 9W on network planning, it just need to ramp-up feed from India to EU SkyTeam hubs. Every Indian station gives access up to 22 NA stations.

With WOW's entry it is even more urgent. There is absolutely no need to burn fuel and cash on ULH.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5240
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 9:03 pm

spinotter wrote:
IndyHoosier wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
And this thread has officially been ruined by the exact same poster that ruins any other DL thread.


Agreed. It is quite annoying.


I don't understand how a thread can be ruined by a poster. If you disagree, all the better marshaling of argumentation, facts, claims, and counterclaims. We will see what if any new routes to the Mideast and India Delta inaugurates in the near future. I am somewhat skeptical myself about DL metal to these places. But I am ready to be happily surprised!

except facts don't work with klm617. That's the problem
Example below, Delta is larger than American to Asia. The numbers have been posted several times over, put klm617 continues to repeat false information.

He and IPfreely are consistently doing, consistently ruining threads and not a single thing is done about it. Anet now inbraces trolling when in the good old days they would have been banned a long time ago.
That's why a lot of quality posters have left or hardly post anymore.


klm617 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
I find it interesting that DL can make East Asia work (China, Japan, S. Korea, Singapore, Philippines) but not South Asia (India). I heard that East Asia yields are higher than South Asia too. Is that true!?



Let's face it Delta is really not as successful as people think in Asia they are a distant 3rd as far as the US3 are concerned

Once again, for 7th billion time, this is false. Delta is larger to Asia then American is.
 
panamair
Posts: 3976
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 9:08 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
I still don't think there are 35 unique origins in North America to CDG/AMS/LHR (unless you include Caribbean, which seems fairly irrelevant for travel to India).


Here is the list, bit old from when DL got into bed with 9W.

Atlanta, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
Austin, DLAMS
Boston, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
Charlotte, DLAMS
Chicago, DLCDG
Cincinnati, DLCDG
Columbus, DLAMS
Detroit, DLCDG,AF,KL,DLLHR
Denver, DLAMS
Houston, AF
Los Angeles AF
Las Vegas, DLAMS
Miami, AF,KL
Minneapolis, DLCDG,KL,,DLLHR
Newark, DLCDG
New York, DLCDG, AF,DLLHR
Orlando, DLAMS
Pittsburgh, DLCDG
Philadelphia, DLCDG,DLLHR
Phoenix, DLAMS
Portland, KL,DLLHR
Raleigh-Durham, DLCDG
Salt Lake City DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
San Diego, DLAMS
San Francisco, AF
Seattle, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
St. Louis, DLAMS
Tampa, DLAMS
Washington AF
Calgary KL
Edmonton KL
Vancouver AF
Montreal AF
Mexico City AF,KL

Looking at this list and the fact that DL literally showing ropes to 9W on network planning, it just need to ramp-up feed from India to EU SkyTeam hubs. Every Indian station gives access up to 22 NA stations.

With WOW's entry it is even more urgent. There is absolutely no need to burn fuel and cash on ULH.


That list above includes many cities that do not or soon will not have DL/AF/KL non stops to AMS/CDG or LHR: TPA, STL, AUS, CLT, CMH, DEN, SAN, PHX, PHL, LAS, EWR. Overall JFK will offer one-stop connections from India to 45-50 US/Canada destinations.
 
Sightseer
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 9:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
I still don't think there are 35 unique origins in North America to CDG/AMS/LHR (unless you include Caribbean, which seems fairly irrelevant for travel to India).


Here is the list, bit old from when DL got into bed with 9W.

Atlanta, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
Austin, DLAMS
Boston, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
Charlotte, DLAMS
Chicago, DLCDG
Cincinnati, DLCDG
Columbus, DLAMS
Detroit, DLCDG,AF,KL,DLLHR
Denver, DLAMS
Houston, AF
Los Angeles AF
Las Vegas, DLAMS
Miami, AF,KL
Minneapolis, DLCDG,KL,,DLLHR
Newark, DLCDG
New York, DLCDG, AF,DLLHR
Orlando, DLAMS
Pittsburgh, DLCDG
Philadelphia, DLCDG,DLLHR
Phoenix, DLAMS
Portland, KL,DLLHR
Raleigh-Durham, DLCDG
Salt Lake City DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
San Diego, DLAMS
San Francisco, AF
Seattle, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
St. Louis, DLAMS
Tampa, DLAMS
Washington AF
Calgary KL
Edmonton KL
Vancouver AF
Montreal AF
Mexico City AF,KL

I don't know where you found that list, but it's quite inaccurate. There is no Skyteam or VS trans-Atlantic service from AUS, CLT, CMH, DEN, PHL, PHX, SAN, STL, or TPA.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 789
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 10:41 pm

Sightseer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
I still don't think there are 35 unique origins in North America to CDG/AMS/LHR (unless you include Caribbean, which seems fairly irrelevant for travel to India).


Here is the list, bit old from when DL got into bed with 9W.

Atlanta, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
Austin, DLAMS
Boston, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
Charlotte, DLAMS
Chicago, DLCDG
Cincinnati, DLCDG
Columbus, DLAMS
Detroit, DLCDG,AF,KL,DLLHR
Denver, DLAMS
Houston, AF
Los Angeles AF
Las Vegas, DLAMS
Miami, AF,KL
Minneapolis, DLCDG,KL,,DLLHR
Newark, DLCDG
New York, DLCDG, AF,DLLHR
Orlando, DLAMS
Pittsburgh, DLCDG
Philadelphia, DLCDG,DLLHR
Phoenix, DLAMS
Portland, KL,DLLHR
Raleigh-Durham, DLCDG
Salt Lake City DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
San Diego, DLAMS
San Francisco, AF
Seattle, DLCDG,KL,DLLHR
St. Louis, DLAMS
Tampa, DLAMS
Washington AF
Calgary KL
Edmonton KL
Vancouver AF
Montreal AF
Mexico City AF,KL

I don't know where you found that list, but it's quite inaccurate. There is no Skyteam or VS trans-Atlantic service from AUS, CLT, CMH, DEN, PHL, PHX, SAN, STL, or TPA.

Side note, but a few years ago if I recall correcetly DL was going to have a TATL from STL to AMS but plans through
 
ThomasCook
Posts: 706
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:43 am

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 10:54 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Yet the non stops are and have been limited.

Either DL is not smart about routes and making money (their profits say otherwise) or the market isnt the gold mine it is professed to be nonstop.

Occams Razor indicates the former.


Not that simple. You have to look at cost side along with price pressure from competition.

Here are few differentiating cost factors
JFK-BOM is ~2 hrs more flying than JFK-DXB. That adds lot of dead weight and fuel burn.
Rostering 2 set unionized crew under FAA/FDTL costs a lot more than 3 person non-union crew under GCAA rules. (someone is going to back to 3-person, check latest comments)
Overflight restrictions specific to US carriers
JFK will not offer any incentives to Delta.
NY City, NY State and USA are not tax free regimes.


Again with lies. As I pointed out but you conveniently ignored, EK operated all ULR flights with 4 flight crew, 2 augmented, for a total of 2 Captains and 2 F/Os. Stop making your own version of the truth up. Want more proof, look to the GCAA itself, paragraph 7.4.1;

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/epublication/admin/Publication%20History/Civil%20Aviation%20Advisory%20Publication%20(CAAP)/CAAP%2014%20ULR.pdf
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 11:08 pm

tphuang wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
...
I am sort of amazed that people think the US-India market is so homogenous of just low price VFR...


I admire your continued effort to educate a.net. You should realize a.net cannot comprehend the fact that a non-alcoholic, vegetarian Indian granny with limited spoken English can afford business class.

Which they can buy on EK. And if they are really stuck up, they can enjoy their time in the second deck of A380 and not even have to look at those flying in coach class.


EK does nothing for DL & 9W FF. Plus many US based Indians do not value transiting through the ME (esp BOM travelers). We don’t shop at airports (we are Americans in that sense) and are happy buying our scotch bottles for gifts at BOM duty free. You have to remember BOM has always had good connectivity for flights to EU/US. The BOM crowd has had the luxury of choice as well as the income to make choices (again not all but a larger chunk than probably any other Indian city). If DL wants to take on the ME3, they have to provide alternatives to the ME3. A JFK-BOM nonstop hurts the ME3 because a subset of poeple will want the convenience of the one stop and/or want to fly a DL associated airline for FF miles. AI hurt EK not on price but on the nonstop convenience and UA FF miles. DL or 9W will do the same on JFK-BOM. Also the DL elite needing to go from JFK to MAA may also switch to the JFK-BOM-MAA routing because the arrival time into MAA is better or they don’t want to connect in Europe at what is basically 2am NYC time. Unless you have flown to India via EU and then flow nonstop to India you can’t really compare. AI has help spread the word of how nice the nonstop can be. It’s up to DL/9W to take it to the next level with proper service and FF rewards. That is how you compete. To those who say cede Inida to the ME3 because its low yield, I point to the ME3 who basically built an empire on so called low yield India traffic (BOM usually gets premium configured aircraft from most operators as well).
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6078
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Wed May 16, 2018 11:50 pm

ThomasCook wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Rostering 2 set unionized crew under FAA/FDTL costs a lot more than 3 person non-union crew under GCAA rules. (someone is going to back to 3-person, check latest comments)


Again with lies. As I pointed out but you conveniently ignored, EK operated all ULR flights with 4 flight crew, 2 augmented, for a total of 2 Captains and 2 F/Os. Stop making your own version of the truth up. Want more proof, look to the GCAA itself, paragraph 7.4.1;


See highlighted text. GCAA works for airlines. ORD(and one more US station) used to be a 3-person FC. TRV and MAA used to be turn around flights almost a month before EK521 operational incident. Dry fruit forum is ripe with comments about going back to 3-person FC.

Reuters reporting even cabin crew shortage and rostering two less CC per flight.

Ops induced flight crew discretion is very common in sandpit, United got pulled up by FAA just for few instances of flight crew discretion based on union complaints.

Point I am trying to make, Delta cannot pull all these gimmicks with FAA and unions watching them. That is the reality of living in civilized world.
 
tphuang
Posts: 1942
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 12:48 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

I admire your continued effort to educate a.net. You should realize a.net cannot comprehend the fact that a non-alcoholic, vegetarian Indian granny with limited spoken English can afford business class.

Which they can buy on EK. And if they are really stuck up, they can enjoy their time in the second deck of A380 and not even have to look at those flying in coach class.


EK does nothing for DL & 9W FF. Plus many US based Indians do not value transiting through the ME (esp BOM travelers). We don’t shop at airports (we are Americans in that sense) and are happy buying our scotch bottles for gifts at BOM duty free. You have to remember BOM has always had good connectivity for flights to EU/US. The BOM crowd has had the luxury of choice as well as the income to make choices (again not all but a larger chunk than probably any other Indian city). If DL wants to take on the ME3, they have to provide alternatives to the ME3. A JFK-BOM nonstop hurts the ME3 because a subset of poeple will want the convenience of the one stop and/or want to fly a DL associated airline for FF miles. AI hurt EK not on price but on the nonstop convenience and UA FF miles. DL or 9W will do the same on JFK-BOM. Also the DL elite needing to go from JFK to MAA may also switch to the JFK-BOM-MAA routing because the arrival time into MAA is better or they don’t want to connect in Europe at what is basically 2am NYC time. Unless you have flown to India via EU and then flow nonstop to India you can’t really compare. AI has help spread the word of how nice the nonstop can be. It’s up to DL/9W to take it to the next level with proper service and FF rewards. That is how you compete. To those who say cede Inida to the ME3 because its low yield, I point to the ME3 who basically built an empire on so called low yield India traffic (BOM usually gets premium configured aircraft from most operators as well).


Yet, the vast majority of NYC Indians I know fly ME3 when they go visit India and so do their parents when they come for visits. These are definitely not the low yielding traffic. They all have high paying jobs in NYC and from wealthy Indian families. They pick EK because it has much better service catered to Indian taste. As for non-stop vs one-stop, the majority of Indian expats don't live in mumbai. They live all across India and EK flies to a lot of those cities. So it will be one-stop for the greater majority of people. If you are going home for a visit, would you rather spend your transiting time in the EK lounge at Dubai or 9W lounge in BOM?

Also if you actually live here, you would know that a large chunk (maybe even the majority) of Indian Americans and expats that have high paying wall street jobs live in Jersey rather than Manhattan or Brooklyn. Do you think those people are going to do the 3 hour drive to JFK to fly DL? Up until know, EK hasn't been flying into EWR and all that traffic is captured by AI and UA.
 
Atlwarrior
Posts: 291
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:42 am

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 12:59 am

I definitely could see an Atlanta to India flight. Atlanta’s northern India population is booming and Alpharetta have a large IT community.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2057
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 3:27 am

msycajun wrote:
They have a track record of cornering smaller markets rather than duking it out in low-fare highly competitive markets - see RDU, CVG, IND, PDX.


Delta has less than 50% market share at all of these airports --

CVG 45%
RDU 31%
IND 22%
PDX 11%

That's not what most people would call "cornering the market".
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 3:33 am

tphuang wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Which they can buy on EK. And if they are really stuck up, they can enjoy their time in the second deck of A380 and not even have to look at those flying in coach class.


EK does nothing for DL & 9W FF. Plus many US based Indians do not value transiting through the ME (esp BOM travelers). We don’t shop at airports (we are Americans in that sense) and are happy buying our scotch bottles for gifts at BOM duty free. You have to remember BOM has always had good connectivity for flights to EU/US. The BOM crowd has had the luxury of choice as well as the income to make choices (again not all but a larger chunk than probably any other Indian city). If DL wants to take on the ME3, they have to provide alternatives to the ME3. A JFK-BOM nonstop hurts the ME3 because a subset of poeple will want the convenience of the one stop and/or want to fly a DL associated airline for FF miles. AI hurt EK not on price but on the nonstop convenience and UA FF miles. DL or 9W will do the same on JFK-BOM. Also the DL elite needing to go from JFK to MAA may also switch to the JFK-BOM-MAA routing because the arrival time into MAA is better or they don’t want to connect in Europe at what is basically 2am NYC time. Unless you have flown to India via EU and then flow nonstop to India you can’t really compare. AI has help spread the word of how nice the nonstop can be. It’s up to DL/9W to take it to the next level with proper service and FF rewards. That is how you compete. To those who say cede Inida to the ME3 because its low yield, I point to the ME3 who basically built an empire on so called low yield India traffic (BOM usually gets premium configured aircraft from most operators as well).


Yet, the vast majority of NYC Indians I know fly ME3 when they go visit India and so do their parents when they come for visits. These are definitely not the low yielding traffic. They all have high paying jobs in NYC and from wealthy Indian families. They pick EK because it has much better service catered to Indian taste. As for non-stop vs one-stop, the majority of Indian expats don't live in mumbai. They live all across India and EK flies to a lot of those cities. So it will be one-stop for the greater majority of people. If you are going home for a visit, would you rather spend your transiting time in the EK lounge at Dubai or 9W lounge in BOM?

Also if you actually live here, you would know that a large chunk (maybe even the majority) of Indian Americans and expats that have high paying wall street jobs live in Jersey rather than Manhattan or Brooklyn. Do you think those people are going to do the 3 hour drive to JFK to fly DL? Up until know, EK hasn't been flying into EWR and all that traffic is captured by AI and UA.


Do you work for EK? Yes, I live in Manhattan and my family is from BOM originally. Been going back every year / other year my whole life. You are being myopically focused on the “people you know” - fyi that is never the way you do a research sample . No one is denying that some Indians like ME3. “Some” still leaves “many others” for other airlines. Yes the NJ Indians will fly through EWR and yes there are more recent immigrants in NJ. That said, JFK still serves a very large Indian population and includes a lot of business traffic (both indian and non indian). The DL/9W nonstop flight is about business traffic not recent immigrants flying back to India. It’s about FF who will pay a premium to stay in an alliance (EK’s frequent flyer program doesn’t get you any perks while flying on business in the US). It’s about JFK-BOM O&D primarily (which is sizable) and then connections (especially connections to cities the others can’t easily be provide when you land at 2am). Any way, I’m now saying the same things from my previous posts. At this point I’m fine with you believing everyone flies EK and loves the ME3. At least you now know one Indian-American who almost never flies the ME3, likes Delta and 9W, pays a reasonable premium to stay within DL FF program and flies J to India. Final thought - if AI, with it’s crappy service and hard product, can hurt the ME3 with its nonstop flights, buckle up if DL/9W starts JFK-BOM. Even if DL doesn’t make a ton of money, they will rob the ME3 of “some” of the premium US origin traffic which will hurt. Peace.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 3:43 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

Final thought - if AI, with it’s crappy service and hard product, can hurt the ME3 with its nonstop flights, buckle up if DL/9W starts JFK-BOM. Even if DL doesn’t make a ton of money, they will rob the ME3 of “some” of the premium US origin traffic which will hurt. Peace.


Maybe DL's threshold for starting a route is higher than 'doesn't make a ton of money' and 'rob ME3'.

They didn't cancel the route in 2009 because of teh ME3. If JFK-BOM had such an obvious business case, it would have been restarted already.
 
winginit
Posts: 1583
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 3:45 am

flymco753 wrote:
aircal62 wrote:
Why is everyone focusing on India, there are other routes which may be announced. I do not see DL returning to India soon, I do see other routes however
ATL-DXB. Perhaps JFK/ATL-IST?


If a new route is to be announced in the near future "as a result of this agreement", I strongly suspect it'll be ATL-DXB.

arabianBusiness is already reporting as much, although I'd view that reporting with some skepticism.
 
Antarius
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 4:15 am

dmstorm22 wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:


Maybe DL's threshold for starting a route is higher than 'doesn't make a ton of money' and 'rob ME3'.

They didn't cancel the route in 2009 because of teh ME3. If JFK-BOM had such an obvious business case, it would have been restarted already.


This.

Everything turns into an emotional knee jerk thing. Pride has nothing to do with route planning, especially for non state run carriers. DL isnt into a measuring contest with AI for example.
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
dtwpilot225
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:31 am

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 4:22 am

I know it won’t happen but how about dtw-Dxb on the 350?
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5357
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 4:40 am

Atlwarrior wrote:
I definitely could see an Atlanta to India flight. Atlanta’s northern India population is booming and Alpharetta have a large IT community.


Tried and failed already before the ME3 were that big in the US market.
Next flight: IAH-UIO-IAH on UA in Y
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6078
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 10:45 am

panamair wrote:
...That list above includes many cities that do not or soon will not have DL/AF/KL non stops to AMS/CDG or LHR: TPA, STL, AUS, CLT, CMH, DEN, SAN, PHX, PHL, LAS, EWR. Overall JFK will offer one-stop connections from India to 45-50 US/Canada destinations.

Sightseer wrote:
...I don't know where you found that list, but it's quite inaccurate. There is no Skyteam or VS trans-Atlantic service from AUS, CLT, CMH, DEN, PHL, PHX, SAN, STL, or TPA.


Thanks for correcting me. I now remember it was corrected by someone else when I posted few months back and I edited the list, somehow still have the old version.

If DL wants to do JFK-BOM, a reborn 788 is a better frame than A350. May be DL can get back on the Dreamwagon, now that Boeing is planning to implement 789 enhancement of 788.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Thu May 17, 2018 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tphuang
Posts: 1942
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: DL to add new routes after agreement with ME3

Thu May 17, 2018 10:47 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

EK does nothing for DL & 9W FF. Plus many US based Indians do not value transiting through the ME (esp BOM travelers). We don’t shop at airports (we are Americans in that sense) and are happy buying our scotch bottles for gifts at BOM duty free. You have to remember BOM has always had good connectivity for flights to EU/US. The BOM crowd has had the luxury of choice as well as the income to make choices (again not all but a larger chunk than probably any other Indian city). If DL wants to take on the ME3, they have to provide alternatives to the ME3. A JFK-BOM nonstop hurts the ME3 because a subset of poeple will want the convenience of the one stop and/or want to fly a DL associated airline for FF miles. AI hurt EK not on price but on the nonstop convenience and UA FF miles. DL or 9W will do the same on JFK-BOM. Also the DL elite needing to go from JFK to MAA may also switch to the JFK-BOM-MAA routing because the arrival time into MAA is better or they don’t want to connect in Europe at what is basically 2am NYC time. Unless you have flown to India via EU and then flow nonstop to India you can’t really compare. AI has help spread the word of how nice the nonstop can be. It’s up to DL/9W to take it to the next level with proper service and FF rewards. That is how you compete. To those who say cede Inida to the ME3 because its low yield, I point to the ME3 who basically built an empire on so called low yield India traffic (BOM usually gets premium configured aircraft from most operators as well).


Yet, the vast majority of NYC Indians I know fly ME3 when they go visit India and so do their parents when they come for visits. These are definitely not the low yielding traffic. They all have high paying jobs in NYC and from wealthy Indian families. They pick EK because it has much better service catered to Indian taste. As for non-stop vs one-stop, the majority of Indian expats don't live in mumbai. They live all across India and EK flies to a lot of those cities. So it will be one-stop for the greater majority of people. If you are going home for a visit, would you rather spend your transiting time in the EK lounge at Dubai or 9W lounge in BOM?

Also if you actually live here, you would know that a large chunk (maybe even the majority) of Indian Americans and expats that have high paying wall street jobs live in Jersey rather than Manhattan or Brooklyn. Do you think those people are going to do the 3 hour drive to JFK to fly DL? Up until know, EK hasn't been flying into EWR and all that traffic is captured by AI and UA.


Do you work for EK? Yes, I live in Manhattan and my family is from BOM originally. Been going back every year / other year my whole life. You are being myopically focused on the “people you know” - fyi that is never the way you do a research sample . No one is denying that some Indians like ME3. “Some” still leaves “many others” for other airlines. Yes the NJ Indians will fly through EWR and yes there are more recent immigrants in NJ. That said, JFK still serves a very large Indian population and includes a lot of business traffic (both indian and non indian). The DL/9W nonstop flight is about business traffic not recent immigrants flying back to India. It’s about FF who will pay a premium to stay in an alliance (EK’s frequent flyer program doesn’t get you any perks while flying on business in the US). It’s about JFK-BOM O&D primarily (which is sizable) and then connections (especially connections to cities the others can’t easily be provide when you land at 2am). Any way, I’m now saying the same things from my previous posts. At this point I’m fine with you believing everyone flies EK and loves the ME3. At least you now know one Indian-American who almost never flies the ME3, likes Delta and 9W, pays a reasonable premium to stay within DL FF program and flies J to India. Final thought - if AI, with it’s crappy service and hard product, can hurt the ME3 with its nonstop flights, buckle up if DL/9W starts JFK-BOM. Even if DL doesn’t make a ton of money, they will rob the ME3 of “some” of the premium US origin traffic which will hurt. Peace.


i'm willing to bet JFK-BOM is a lot smaller than EWR-BOM and much smaller than JFK/EWR to rest of India. You seem to be stuck on this ff loyalty thing, when the vast majority of public that fly, even for business are agnostic to flying on one airline. This might be a shock to people on a.net who are legacy worshippers, but having a lot of choices in new york + advent of Chase Ultimate Rewards and other program mean we can fly many different airlines to go to where we need to go. There is also no indication that DL/9W can charge a premium if they launched such a service if there is already loyalty to ME3 or if they live in New Jersey or even lower Manhattan where EWR is far more convenient.

So if DL's goal is to use a valuable A350 and loose money to make a point with no end game, they can certainly go ahead with that.

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