oksman
Topic Author
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:33 pm

LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 12:25 am

Last week I flown GRU-JNB on JJ (now LA) and something came to my attention. The flight took a northeastern route until the middle of the Atlantic Ocean crossing, than headed southeast, which surprised me since the most logical route initially would be east/southeast. On the return flight today the flight took the some path, and the only explanation I could imagine is that since it is flown by a 763 there are ETOPS 180 restrictions applying. That doesn't happen on the SA flights, which are flown by 332 and take a much more southern route. The result is that on both ways the LA flight takes about 2 hours more than SA flights.
So, is LA flying the right aircraft? Wouldn't it make more sense to use an aircraft that can make a shorter route even if you can't fill all the seats? Their 763 seat 217 pax, while the 788 has about 30 more seats and A359 has 100 more, but how can it be possible to burn fuel unnecessarily for about 2 hours on every flight on the route?
Seems to me that since the merger the airline is quite "confused" regarding fleet planning, since it has to deal with two very different fleet plans and turn those into one.
I realize they are facing 787 problems, but they have recently leased 4 359's to Qatar and constantly change the equipment on European routes. Looks like they are having a hard time to figure an appropriated fleet recently. Is the 763 the right aircraft for them?

Thoughts?
 
strfyr51
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 12:32 am

They're flying within the ETOPS limits they have . Do the 3332's have a 240 min ETOPS limit??
 
jupiter2
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Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 12:57 am

LAN has had the 763 for 30 years and you're questioning if it's the right aircraft for them ? I'd leave it to them to work out the numbers, but if it was a real problem they wouldn't be doing it.

As for the aircraft changes, many airlines seasonally adjust capacity and therefore aircraft use, LA are no different in that regard, be it the 763, 787, 77W, or the 350. Try keeping track of what ET use and when.
 
Antarius
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Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 1:03 am

LATAM also has major issues with the 787 and its engines. So their fleet plan isnt really going according to plan
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geoshina
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Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 2:05 am

Oksman
You are right, JJ have always operated the JNB-GRU route with the 767 and it really takes this northern route which adds 2 hours flying time.
In a way the 767 has enabled JJ to open some routes such as FCO, BOS, seasonal LAS, BCN and JNB.
It's also the smallest widebody in JJ fleet.
I think the A350 is too much of plane for these new routes, the same as the B773ER. The 787 would do well, but I guess the guys have already explained that LA does not have spare 787 to do this route.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2732
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 2:19 am

oksman wrote:
The flight took a northeastern route until the middle of the Atlantic Ocean crossing, than headed southeast, which surprised me since the most logical route initially would be east/southeast. On the return flight today the flight took the some path

It's quite strange. I flew SA JNB-GRU in April 2015 and the attached caption from my personal screen looks the logical path.
By the way, my plane was an Airbus 340-300.

Image

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
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Stitch
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 2:21 am

strfyr51 wrote:
They're flying within the ETOPS limits they have . Do the 3332's have a 240 min ETOPS limit??


Yes they do.

SJOtoLIR wrote:
It's quite strange. I flew SA JNB-GRU in April 2015 and the attached caption from my personal screen looks the logical path. By the way, my plane was an Airbus 340-300.


According to a post by T54A in this thread from 10 months ago, compared to the A343 for the same day the A332 routed slightly north (39 deg S vs 41S) to keep within the 240 min rule. Flying time was 11min longer (and burn was 5000kg less).
 
vorellanaj
Posts: 18
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Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 4:24 am

The worst LA mismanagement was early retirement to desert for 4 owned A340 fleet. 5th arrived used and it was a leased aircraft.

Never trust important routes only with a new technology model and engine. Examples are BA, JL and NH having another equal models to make substitutions (77E and 763W also in JL-NH case). I remember the Nippon carriers flew with 77E for temporarily substitution when 787 fleets were grounded due battery troubles.
The aviation world will be bored if only twins fly with commercial passengers. I love 747s
 
oksman
Topic Author
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:33 pm

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 7:37 am

jupiter2 wrote:
LAN has had the 763 for 30 years and you're questioning if it's the right aircraft for them ? I'd leave it to them to work out the numbers, but if it was a real problem they wouldn't be doing it.


You are right, but LAN is not flying the 767 anymore. TAM is flying their 767s. I referred to them all as LA because since last friday JJ flights simply doesn't exist anymore, they are all LA now. Seems to me that if it was the right aircraft for them they would have kept them instead of keeping the new 787's and transferring 767's to JJ and retiring the A330. This seems to have occurred because the A330's were leased and 767's are owned and quite new. What I think doesn't make sense is using the 767 on routes it doesn't seems suited to.

Stitch wrote:
According to a post by T54A in this thread from 10 months ago, compared to the A343 for the same day the A332 routed slightly north (39 deg S vs 41S) to keep within the 240 min rule. Flying time was 11min longer (and burn was 5000kg less).


Is it possible to estimate how much fuel LA is spending more than SA on than route on a daily basis?

SJOtoLIR wrote:
It's quite strange. I flew SA JNB-GRU in April 2015 and the attached caption from my personal screen looks the logical path.
By the way, my plane was an Airbus 340-300.


A340's don't have ETOPS restrictions

vorellanaj wrote:
The worst LA mismanagement was early retirement to desert for 4 owned A340 fleet. 5th arrived used and it was a leased aircraft.


Couldn't those come back from the desert if needed or were they scrapped?



On a side note, inbound no JNB there were 8 J seats blocked out of 30, and some passengers had to be downgraded to coach. 4 for crew rest and other 4 due to seat malfunctioning. One might wonder how economical it is to have almost 30% of your business class seats blocked when you have a fully booked flight. Seems that the company is wasting big money that could be saved if it was maybe better managed, but on the other hand it keeps increasing fees that clients have to pay other than airfares. For example, they are charging 100 USD for anything that is oversized even if it's not overweight.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 8:18 am

Although all LATAM Flights are now LA (JJ no longer used) the split between Brazil and Chile does still exist. All B787s are on Chile's Fleet while the A350s will only be on Brazil's Fleet. The B777s from Brazil will be retired/transferred to Chile (see other blogs on the subject). The B763s will come to Brazil's fleet and will serve them for a while.
The issue they have is the B787s engine problems which is somehow playing with their fleet plans. Once those get resolved, Chile might operate a full B787 long haul fleet and Brazil will end up with a full long haul A350. This is to come and the only likely adjustments are the B777s and B767s which will remain until they are deemed too old.
GRU-JNB is a Brazil managed route. I agree that the A350 is too much aircraft for it but it may not be in future if they manage to attract more customers. For now, the only aircraft that Brazil has as an alternative is the B763 (do not expect B787s for Brazil anytime further - neither, it seems, new B777s). I do not see they bringing back the A340s so either they manage to increase demand and up gauge to A350s or this route may not survive as it is (e.g. be cancelled and/or extend that to Chile and transfer it to the Chilean Arm so that B787s may take over).

As such, I can say that they do NOT mismanage their fleet - it is quite a neat process actually and the only problem they have are the B787s engine issues.

As for the A350s still in Qatar, well, either they are getting quite good money for them and/or waiting for some routes on their (Brazilian) network which can warrant them. Also, with the incoming transfer of their B777s from Brazil to Chile (or their return to lessor/sale), those will come back.

Problem for Brazil is that on certain routes (GRU-LHR, for example) they are simply not able to cope although they have about 4 A350-1000s on order...
 
geoshina
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:18 pm

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 9:00 am

JJ flights will continue to/from USA.

If I am not mistaken, the 77W and 767 will be retrofitted with new seats.
 
vorellanaj
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:34 pm

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Mon May 14, 2018 10:40 am

oksman wrote:

Couldn't those come back from the desert if needed or were they scrapped?


No, those aircraft can't return to service. 3 of them (CC-CQA , C and F) were scrapped in SFB. And CC-CQE is stored in Marana, and it's stripped for parts.
The aviation world will be bored if only twins fly with commercial passengers. I love 747s
 
grjplanes
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:52 am

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Wed May 16, 2018 7:10 pm

Can we say that this route is operating above expectations for LA/JJ so far? Since launched SA have decreased from 11 to 7 weekly...while LATAM increased from 3 to 5 weekly (initially suppose to increase only seasonally, but now year-round?)
 
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XAM2175
Posts: 855
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Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Wed May 16, 2018 9:02 pm

oksman wrote:
A340's don't have ETOPS restrictions


They do, actually. The exact specifics vary by jurisdiction, but generally all flights beyond 180 minutes of a suitable diversion airport now or will soon require the aircraft to meet certain safety standards (mainly related to fire containment and suppression capabilities) regardless of the number of engines.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Wed May 16, 2018 9:26 pm

On the 343s, I believe they are scrapped or derelict (except for the one returned to Airbus and then leased to SAS).
 
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seabosdca
Posts: 5470
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Wed May 16, 2018 10:05 pm

LATAM has been juggling equipment systemwide since the magnitude of the Trent 1000 (787) troubles became clear.

I doubt that flying a 767-300ER under ETOPS 180 on this route is the desired long-term solution. Maybe LATAM Brasil might have a few 787s if the 787 fleet were at full strength, or maybe they're just waiting for the remaining A350-900 deliveries.
 
dcajet
Posts: 2299
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Wed May 16, 2018 10:36 pm

oksman wrote:
You are right, but LAN is not flying the 767 anymore.


LATAM Chile's goodbye from the 767 turned out to be short lived as they are back to flying them in the Americas, replacing some of the 787 flying. SCL-EZE and SCL-GRU are some of the routes they are being deployed on ex-SCL.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
berari
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Thu May 17, 2018 12:04 am

For those wondering, here's a good comparison:

LA's GRU-JNB flight on May 15: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#1163b638
- Flight time: 9:58

SA's GRU-JNB flight on May 15: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#1163b423
- Flight time: 8:17



LA's JNB-GRU flight on May 15: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#116211c2
- Flight time: 10:43


SA's JNB-GRU flight on May 15: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#116216e8
- Flight time: 9:43
 
berari
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Thu May 17, 2018 12:07 am

grjplanes wrote:
Can we say that this route is operating above expectations for LA/JJ so far? Since launched SA have decreased from 11 to 7 weekly...while LATAM increased from 3 to 5 weekly (initially suppose to increase only seasonally, but now year-round?)


I think they codeshare on eachothers' flights, so looks balanced. Also probably a better setup for SA given its financial woes.
 
thgsr08
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Thu May 17, 2018 2:52 am

seabosdca wrote:
LATAM has been juggling equipment systemwide since the magnitude of the Trent 1000 (787) troubles became clear.

I doubt that flying a 767-300ER under ETOPS 180 on this route is the desired long-term solution. Maybe LATAM Brasil might have a few 787s if the 787 fleet were at full strength, or maybe they're just waiting for the remaining A350-900 deliveries.


LATAM Brasil WILL NOT operate 787s.
B787-8/9 belong to LATAM Chile.

ANAC says that only Brazilian crew - or brazilian citizen - can operate for a Brazilian Airline, doesn't matter which aircraft or country of registration.
I don't believe JJ is paying 787's pilots in case of a casuality, so no, LATAM BR WILL NOT operate 787s.
:checkeredflag:
 
thgsr08
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Thu May 17, 2018 3:03 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Although all LATAM Flights are now LA (JJ no longer used) the split between Brazil and Chile does still exist. All B787s are on Chile's Fleet while the A350s will only be on Brazil's Fleet. The B777s from Brazil will be retired/transferred to Chile (see other blogs on the subject). The B763s will come to Brazil's fleet and will serve them for a while.
The issue they have is the B787s engine problems which is somehow playing with their fleet plans. Once those get resolved, Chile might operate a full B787 long haul fleet and Brazil will end up with a full long haul A350. This is to come and the only likely adjustments are the B777s and B767s which will remain until they are deemed too old.
GRU-JNB is a Brazil managed route. I agree that the A350 is too much aircraft for it but it may not be in future if they manage to attract more customers. For now, the only aircraft that Brazil has as an alternative is the B763 (do not expect B787s for Brazil anytime further - neither, it seems, new B777s). I do not see they bringing back the A340s so either they manage to increase demand and up gauge to A350s or this route may not survive as it is (e.g. be cancelled and/or extend that to Chile and transfer it to the Chilean Arm so that B787s may take over).

As such, I can say that they do NOT mismanage their fleet - it is quite a neat process actually and the only problem they have are the B787s engine issues.

As for the A350s still in Qatar, well, either they are getting quite good money for them and/or waiting for some routes on their (Brazilian) network which can warrant them. Also, with the incoming transfer of their B777s from Brazil to Chile (or their return to lessor/sale), those will come back.

Problem for Brazil is that on certain routes (GRU-LHR, for example) they are simply not able to cope although they have about 4 A350-1000s on order...


LATAM BR is not tranfering any 77W to the Chilean base. Actually this was a gossip that was proved wrong after an 772 ex- SIA/VIM (https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... s/6R7Mhnqd) landed at GIG for maintenance and then go to LATAM CL fleet, probably to cover Australasias routes. If i'm not mistaken, there's another one to come along.
Now about the 767s, they don't need to be transfered to operate, under the ANAC law. The only requirement is to be operated by Brazilian crew, and actually there's a few covering fligths from REC, SSA, GIG and BEL, all of them with chilean registrations.
:checkeredflag:
 
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juliuswong
Posts: 564
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Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Thu May 17, 2018 3:45 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
On the 343s, I believe they are scrapped or derelict (except for the one returned to Airbus and then leased to SAS).

CC-CQA MSN 359 Scrapped at SFB 2015
CC-CQC MSN 363 Scrapped at SFB 2015
CC-CQE MSN 429 Stored at SFB 2013
CC-CQF MSN 449 Scrapped at SFB 2015
CC-CQG MSN 167 Currently active as LN-RKP SAS Scandinavian Airlines.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
Jomar777
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Thu May 17, 2018 5:06 pm

thgsr08 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Although all LATAM Flights are now LA (JJ no longer used) the split between Brazil and Chile does still exist. All B787s are on Chile's Fleet while the A350s will only be on Brazil's Fleet. The B777s from Brazil will be retired/transferred to Chile (see other blogs on the subject). The B763s will come to Brazil's fleet and will serve them for a while.
The issue they have is the B787s engine problems which is somehow playing with their fleet plans. Once those get resolved, Chile might operate a full B787 long haul fleet and Brazil will end up with a full long haul A350. This is to come and the only likely adjustments are the B777s and B767s which will remain until they are deemed too old.
GRU-JNB is a Brazil managed route. I agree that the A350 is too much aircraft for it but it may not be in future if they manage to attract more customers. For now, the only aircraft that Brazil has as an alternative is the B763 (do not expect B787s for Brazil anytime further - neither, it seems, new B777s). I do not see they bringing back the A340s so either they manage to increase demand and up gauge to A350s or this route may not survive as it is (e.g. be cancelled and/or extend that to Chile and transfer it to the Chilean Arm so that B787s may take over).

As such, I can say that they do NOT mismanage their fleet - it is quite a neat process actually and the only problem they have are the B787s engine issues.

As for the A350s still in Qatar, well, either they are getting quite good money for them and/or waiting for some routes on their (Brazilian) network which can warrant them. Also, with the incoming transfer of their B777s from Brazil to Chile (or their return to lessor/sale), those will come back.

Problem for Brazil is that on certain routes (GRU-LHR, for example) they are simply not able to cope although they have about 4 A350-1000s on order...


LATAM BR is not tranfering any 77W to the Chilean base. Actually this was a gossip that was proved wrong after an 772 ex- SIA/VIM (https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... s/6R7Mhnqd) landed at GIG for maintenance and then go to LATAM CL fleet, probably to cover Australasias routes. If i'm not mistaken, there's another one to come along.
Now about the 767s, they don't need to be transfered to operate, under the ANAC law. The only requirement is to be operated by Brazilian crew, and actually there's a few covering fligths from REC, SSA, GIG and BEL, all of them with chilean registrations.


OK. Thanks for the clarification. I guess that this means that they will be leaving the fleet as and when more A359s and the A350-1000s start coming then...
 
C010T3
Posts: 1858
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

Re: LATAM fleet mismanagement

Thu May 17, 2018 5:10 pm

JJ hasn‘t been taking all 350 that Airbus is delivering.

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