If they will lie about that, what else?

Can them overnight.

According to the article, a stay order has been issued to allow crew to continue their work. While holding fake degrees is very concerning, if they can fly the plane in line with all regulations and standards, I don't see the problem.

https://timesofislamabad.com/11-May-201 ... ium=direct

While holding fake degrees is very concerning, if they can fly the plane in line with all regulations and standards, I don't see the problem.

Seriously?!!

So as long as they can fly the plane ‘in line with regulations’ it doesn’t matter? So basically anyone should be able to turn up at any airline with fake documents, and that be ok?

Thanks God their are not brain surgeons... Oh wait!!

The concern for me is where does such an individual draw the line with their background, what is real about their previous flying experience, and the logbooks used to obtain a licence.

If this is not a reason to block an airline for flying to their international destinations, this is one of them. Of course, don't know if any of the pilots/crew usually fly the international routes.

There’s an even deeper issue in terms of management for this airline.

What this suggests this to me is much more than just fake employees -- it tells a lot about the possible existence of culture of corruption in the entire airline industry of Pakistan, beginning from the regulators who provide licenses to the airlines which recruit them, which is very concerning.
If authorities really don't find fake employees an issue, and are waiting for some incident to happen first, then that doesn't make the things better in any way.

And who knows these are fake employees, there could be fake and untrained security or maintenance agencies and just about everything else

neomax wrote:

If they can fly the plane in line with all regulations and standards, I don't see the problem.

https://timesofislamabad.com/11-May-201 ... ium=direct

But they aren't, they are flying fine until they have a mishap to which they have no training and then we all know the rest of the story... Remember the 2008 Mexico City Learjet crash?

You know, you can also run the red light and it's ok, but one day you will either crash or a cop will catch you, fortunately they were caught before any harm was done to the passengers.

Viper911

User001 wrote:

While holding fake degrees is very concerning, if they can fly the plane in line with all regulations and standards, I don't see the problem.

Seriously?!!

So as long as they can fly the plane ‘in line with regulations’ it doesn’t matter? So basically anyone should be able to turn up at any airline with fake documents, and that be ok?

Exactly, !!! The fact that someone thinks it's ok as long as they can fly the plane is absolutely incredulous. If those responsible are prepared to go to such levels of deceit, whst else are they prepared to do or lie about. It is fundamental dishonesty plain and simple. Saying it's ok if they can fly the plane is, unfortunately, endemic of our modern society where far too many people develop a dillusional sense of self entitlement and are no longer prepared to work hard for their goals, and seem to blame others rather than accept responsibility for their own actions..

zeke wrote:

The concern for me is where does such an individual draw the line with their background, what is real about their previous flying experience, and the logbooks used to obtain a licence.

That sums it up. The person's must be fired.

They should be allowed to pay for auditing of the logs and licenses to keep what is valid. But go fly for someone else.

I had a coworker fired as she was able to sneak in a few classes she never took to save a semester of tuition (degree was awarded). But a B+ from a professor that gave A, A-, B, and B- was a give away. One call for a reference to the professor resulted in an audit that removed 12 credits from the transcript. The every 5 year audit of degrees showed no degree and that was cause to be locked out of a building. Technically not fired, it is job abandonment.

If a pilot lied, revoke flight deck privileges and dismiss for job abandonment.

Lightsaber

This (rule of law, civic institutions, credentialing) is why western, or at least, highly developed country, (ideally both), airlines are safer.

In a society where anything goes, kinda anything goes.

This happens everywhere. Why is anyone surprised?

MaksFly wrote:

This happens everywhere. Why is anyone surprised?

Everywhere?

Where is everywhere?

The article said that 24 pilots out of 319 that have been vetted so far of the total seniority list of 451, have fake degrees.

24 of 319 = 7.5%

Company-wide, the number was (24+67) of 1,972 employees.

91 of 1,972 = 4.6%

I don't know where you're from but let's use a US legacy carrier as an example. The big three have approximately 15,000 pilots each.

If the proportions were the same, and your assertion that this "happens everywhere" is true, then you propose that each of the US legacy carriers might have over a thousand pilots with fake degrees?

What on earth?

These percentages are not normal.

A handful of employees of any group out of thousands lying about their credentials is one thing.

But to average more than 1 out of 20 employees companywide having a false academic record is not something that happens everywhere.

It must be a cultural thing.

Just to clarify, by "degrees" - what do they mean? Their flight school training? If that's the case, it is truly shocking.

Is there a call for an ICAO audit of Pakistan to see whether or not a downgrade is warranted?

JetBuddy wrote:

Just to clarify, by "degrees" - what do they mean? Their flight school training? If that's the case, it is truly shocking.

Or do they mean lying about having a degree? Or did they purchase a degree from a fake university? Pakistan has had issues with diploma mills:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Brits.html

This makes me wonder if the goat the slaughtered to ward off evil was even a real goat

This has been a common problem even in the USA in many job areas and are good, legal cause for immediate firing by employers. Usually it is over lying in their job applications. I know from my work in the legal field and general knowledge of cops, lawyers, business executives all fired due to educational credential fraud.
There are 'degree mills' that issued phony degrees (Bachelors, Masters) for a price. These mills often used names similar to smaller existing private colleges, often they are caught, shut down (think of 'Trump University') for fraud and some like ITT and 'trade' schools over student loan fraud. Then there are those that say they got a degree from a school they went to but didn't get a degree or inflated grades. Sadly that has been too common for too long with competition for goo paying jobs. Many times more recent employers will do checks of educational credentials that were not done in by past employers, figuring they didn't do them.
Sometimes the people get caught, as likely here, as part of promotions or a new job with security sensitive issues that cause a more through investigation of educational credentials. Also, employers can check websites and do Google checks, see if the school they went to was a mill or legit, to verify if someone has phony resumes or lied on a job application.

JetBuddy wrote:

Just to clarify, by "degrees" - what do they mean? Their flight school training? If that's the case, it is truly shocking.

That's what I was wondering, too. If they claimed to have a degree in something unrelated to flying just to make their resume look better, but their flight school training is valid then that's one thing. But if they lied about their actual flight training, that's a much bigger deal.

Yflyer wrote:

JetBuddy wrote:

Just to clarify, by "degrees" - what do they mean? Their flight school training? If that's the case, it is truly shocking.

That's what I was wondering, too. If they claimed to have a degree in something unrelated to flying just to make their resume look better, but their flight school training is valid then that's one thing. But if they lied about their actual flight training, that's a much bigger deal.

Flying credentials are fine. CAA verified that. Degrees were found fake that were submitted at the time of induction into the Airline.

Ammad wrote:

Yflyer wrote:

JetBuddy wrote:

Just to clarify, by "degrees" - what do they mean? Their flight school training? If that's the case, it is truly shocking.

That's what I was wondering, too. If they claimed to have a degree in something unrelated to flying just to make their resume look better, but their flight school training is valid then that's one thing. But if they lied about their actual flight training, that's a much bigger deal.

Flying credentials are fine. CAA verified that. Degrees were found fake that were submitted at the time of induction into the Airline.

But it's fraud and they should be fired on the spot.

goboeing wrote:

MaksFly wrote:

This happens everywhere. Why is anyone surprised?

Everywhere?

Where is everywhere?

The article said that 24 pilots out of 319 that have been vetted so far of the total seniority list of 451, have fake degrees.

24 of 319 = 7.5%

Company-wide, the number was (24+67) of 1,972 employees.

91 of 1,972 = 4.6%

I don't know where you're from but let's use a US legacy carrier as an example. The big three have approximately 15,000 pilots each.

If the proportions were the same, and your assertion that this "happens everywhere" is true, then you propose that each of the US legacy carriers might have over a thousand pilots with fake degrees?

What on earth?

These percentages are not normal.

A handful of employees of any group out of thousands lying about their credentials is one thing.

But to average more than 1 out of 20 employees companywide having a false academic record is not something that happens everywhere.

It must be a cultural thing.

Not sure why Article mention just 1972 employees, total number of employees are more than 15,000.

klm617 wrote:

Ammad wrote:

Yflyer wrote:

That's what I was wondering, too. If they claimed to have a degree in something unrelated to flying just to make their resume look better, but their flight school training is valid then that's one thing. But if they lied about their actual flight training, that's a much bigger deal.

Flying credentials are fine. CAA verified that. Degrees were found fake that were submitted at the time of induction into the Airline.

But it's fraud and they should be fired on the spot.

Correct. They shouldn't be allowed to hide behind stay order.

neomax wrote:

According to the article, a stay order has been issued to allow crew to continue their work. While holding fake degrees is very concerning, if they can fly the plane in line with all regulations and standards, I don't see the problem.

https://timesofislamabad.com/11-May-201 ... ium=direct

I see no reason that a doctor should have to graduate from medical school if he/she can do the job without a degree.

You may be happy with a plumber operating on you, most would not.

User001 wrote:

While holding fake degrees is very concerning, if they can fly the plane in line with all regulations and standards, I don't see the problem.

Seriously?!!

So as long as they can fly the plane ‘in line with regulations’ it doesn’t matter? So basically anyone should be able to turn up at any airline with fake documents, and that be ok?

Are you telling me that my cat did not rightfully earn his MBA?

Ammad wrote:

Yflyer wrote:

JetBuddy wrote:

Just to clarify, by "degrees" - what do they mean? Their flight school training? If that's the case, it is truly shocking.

That's what I was wondering, too. If they claimed to have a degree in something unrelated to flying just to make their resume look better, but their flight school training is valid then that's one thing. But if they lied about their actual flight training, that's a much bigger deal.

Flying credentials are fine. CAA verified that. Degrees were found fake that were submitted at the time of induction into the Airline.

This is what I read in the report as well. Degrees were fake but flight training was legally certified and in good standing. This pretty much sums up the problem in the western world where people spend thousands of dollars to get a degree where in other places you do the actual flight training needed for the job instead of wasting huge amounts of time and money just to get a degree that doesn’t even cover the skills needed for the job. The degrees might be fake but there is not an iota of evidence to suggest that the pilots are any less qualified than any other pilots. People here are getting outraged for no reason just because it’s not in line with “western standards.” Not every place has the same rules, and I know a lot of PK pilots who are just as qualified as any western pilot having flown with the Air Force and the reason for cutting corners rarely has anything to do with malpractice. Often times, it’s as simple as the fact that not everyone has the money to burn on a degree they know is useless, but people still need a job. If they’re certified to do it safely, I trust them degree or no degree.

So now pilots decide what training they need.

Count me out of flying with them.

bennett123 wrote:

So now pilots decide what training they need.

Count me out of flying with them.

Although I'm not condoning what has been done, there could be plenty of non-aviation degrees that could have been faked. Nothing to do with training. It could be University bachelor degrees that some employees added just to get ahead of the masses in obtaining an interview (I'm not condoning this). Doesn't necessarily mean they are any less trained for pilot roles than any European carrier which don't require bachelor degrees.

Fraud, yes. Should they be fired? I believe so. Is flying with them any less safe? Not necessarily (without knowing any more details).

bennett123 wrote:

You may be happy with a plumber operating on you, most would not.

That's not really a valid analogy, though. From how I understand the OP, it's more like your doctor graduated medical school and obtained the proper licenses, but he claimed he also had a BA in art history that he didn't really have.

Yflyer wrote:

JetBuddy wrote:

Just to clarify, by "degrees" - what do they mean? Their flight school training? If that's the case, it is truly shocking.

That's what I was wondering, too. If they claimed to have a degree in something unrelated to flying just to make their resume look better, but their flight school training is valid then that's one thing. But if they lied about their actual flight training, that's a much bigger deal.

Exactly. But even if it's not their flying credentials, we are talking about serious character issues and they probably should be fired anyway.

The airline is now in a bind. They have paid to train these pilots and probably can't replace them right away, but at the same time keeping them is not just condoning fraud/corruption, it's giving out an horrible image to the world.

This is common in third world country, but yes it make you wonder the amount of corruption in Pakistani institutions, as well as other countries similar to Pakistan issue, including India.

You shouldn’t need a degree to fly an airplane. It’s a skill not rocket surgery.

Ammad wrote:

Flying credentials are fine. CAA verified that. Degrees were found fake that were submitted at the time of induction into the Airline.

I am not comfortable with that, I know of airlines looking to employ people from some geographic areas where there seems to be systemic issues with the way licences are issued and experience obtained. For example people logging time they were on an aircraft as a passenger.

32andBelow wrote:

You shouldn’t need a degree to fly an airplane. It’s a skill not rocket surgery.

The role of a pilot involves more than the skill of flying, there is constant adult learning involved where people need to know how to learn and remember new material because their life, and their passengers lives depend on it.

You also need to have the ability to think critically in a time critical situations about the information that is presented. And be able to use their knowledge to reject unsafe information, for example ATC climbing you into another aircraft, turning you towards terrain, published charts with errors, errors in NOTAMs.

What the major of the degree is somewhat irrelivent, someone with a college degree should be able to be given an aircraft CBT and FCOM and told learn that in a week, then you will have an exam, pass mark is 85%. Spoon feeding like at school does not exist in the workplace.

It's wrong to lie, but why do cabin crew need to have degrees?

neomax wrote:

According to the article, a stay order has been issued to allow crew to continue their work. While holding fake degrees is very concerning, if they can fly the plane in line with all regulations and standards, I don't see the problem.

https://timesofislamabad.com/11-May-201 ... ium=direct

How about integrity?

First reply on this forum, but been reading this everyday for years. Holding the fake degrees is an obvious integrity issue but the qualifications that really matter for safety (such as ATPL) are not degrees. The pilots should be disciplined but in terms of safety, there is no danger if the pilot really has that art history degree or not. The main reason people obtain these degree is as fake boosters for their CV. What would be MUCH more concerning is if people in the maintenance department have fake engineering degrees, especially since this is a field where most of the knowledge is obtained from following the work of your colleagues and errors are not as obvious to the general public or other employees as they would be for a pilot not knowing how to fly the plane.

This airline really needs to shut down now with all the crap its done.

All this "third world" stuff is a bit predictable. Frank Abagnale anyone?

zeke wrote:

Ammad wrote:

Flying credentials are fine. CAA verified that. Degrees were found fake that were submitted at the time of induction into the Airline.

I am not comfortable with that, I know of airlines looking to employ people from some geographic areas where there seems to be systemic issues with the way licences are issued and experience obtained. For example people logging time they were on an aircraft as a passenger.

32andBelow wrote:

You shouldn’t need a degree to fly an airplane. It’s a skill not rocket surgery.

The role of a pilot involves more than the skill of flying, there is constant adult learning involved where people need to know how to learn and remember new material because their life, and their passengers lives depend on it.

You also need to have the ability to think critically in a time critical situations about the information that is presented. And be able to use their knowledge to reject unsafe information, for example ATC climbing you into another aircraft, turning you towards terrain, published charts with errors, errors in NOTAMs.

What the major of the degree is somewhat irrelivent, someone with a college degree should be able to be given an aircraft CBT and FCOM and told learn that in a week, then you will have an exam, pass mark is 85%. Spoon feeding like at school does not exist in the workplace.

nah. degrees where only needed when there were more applicants than jobs. In this new climate almost all airlines could care leas if you have a degree. It doesn’t matter. They aren’t doctors. They are pilots. And any pilot needs to pass simulator, recurrent, ground school, and oe. So degree or not they will make it or won’t

Silly Pakistanis... they should have known they should first spend four years of their lives and $200,000 they don't have and need to borrow in order to play beer pong for four years before they can go and learn something actually useful for their careers in graduate school (for even more money, of course). How else is the educational-industrial complex supposed to support itself?

A culture (not "The" )of flawed checking is clear here. Not all PK pilots are concerned by that. As for saying such things only happen in the developing world, wrong 100 times over. Though degrees get checked, other things do not. Germanwings 9525 anyone? The shrinks let the pilot through, and at a Lufthansa affiliate no less. How about multiple FAA whistleblowers going nowhere for pointing out flawed training?
https://www.whistleblower.org/blog/0406 ... r-reprisal
and
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/faa-whistl ... hreatened/

So yes, the PK case is deeply troubling, but not unique, and not limited to the developing world.

32andBelow wrote:

You shouldn’t need a degree to fly an airplane. It’s a skill not rocket surgery.

There are a lot of jobs in this world that really don't require a degree but to the perspective employer it is a requirement and if you don't have one you a disqualifies it doesn't make it OK to forge documents.

Pyrex wrote:

Silly Pakistanis... they should have known they should first spend four years of their lives and $200,000 they don't have and need to borrow in order to play beer pong for four years before they can go and learn something actually useful for their careers in graduate school (for even more money, of course). How else is the educational-industrial complex supposed to support itself?

Very well said and on point the whole higher education system is nothing more than a money grab.

KingB123 wrote:

This airline really needs to shut down now with all the crap its done.

There are a lot more corrupt airlines than PIA it's just their actions are never brought to light.

32andBelow wrote:

You shouldn’t need a degree to fly an airplane. It’s a skill not rocket surgery.

But as NZ authorities discovered recently, you do need a driver's licence to drive a truck. And a driver's licence should involve a bit more than 'buying one on the internet'.

Pyrex wrote:

Silly Pakistanis... they should have known they should first spend four years of their lives and $200,000 they don't have and need to borrow in order to play beer pong for four years before they can go and learn something actually useful for their careers in graduate school (for even more money, of course). How else is the educational-industrial complex supposed to support itself?

I doubt studying in Pakistan is that expensive or there would be nobody studying. Don't confuse the silly situation in the US with what is common elsewhere.

I'm not an airline pilot but if I had gone down that path I would have wanted a useful degree. If your body fails you, you can end up without a career at any age. In my country the "best" way to become an airline pilot doesn't involve getting a degree first, incidentally. It's through the ENAC school (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89col ... ion_civile) and that will give you an engineering degree. The problem is that it's difficult to get into, and some years there are very few openings (or none at all) for pilot candidates.

Planesmart wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

You shouldn’t need a degree to fly an airplane. It’s a skill not rocket surgery.

But as NZ authorities discovered recently, you do need a driver's licence to drive a truck. And a driver's licence should involve a bit more than 'buying one on the internet'.

They don’t have fake pilot ratings