vadodara
Posts: 620
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Thu May 10, 2018 11:24 pm

dangerhere wrote:
We have a similar problem here in Berlin. The capital city of the largest economy in Europe, Germany and yet Lufthansa aircraft don't fly internationally from it! Everything short haul is done through the Group's partners, everything longhaul goes through Munich and Frankfurt. By giving folks in Berlin a limited choice in the first place, it makes us more likely to look for alternative routes and therefore less likely to fly LH for example, even though I like the airline itself.


So this is partly a legacy of Berlin having 3 airports, which at one point, were in 2 distinct countries connected by a language but separated by an ideology. If and when Berlin Brandenburg gets completed, it certainly will open doors for some airline to develop service.

On the other hand, Germany has been reluctant to open, much to detriment of its citizens. My last trip to Munich, the locals were happily complaining about their lack of choice (LH) when needing to fly long-haul.

dangerhere wrote:
That's fair enough and I don't think BER should be a hub.


Again, LH has been around FRA and MUC for a while. It also has lost lot of its connecting traffic to other airlines such as ME3. Its partners such as Swiss have fared worse. LH would probably be very careful before it starts to overextend itself.

dangerhere wrote:
If you fly direct from Berlin to a destination in the EU area, chances are there are more LCC than legacy options. Flying between the historic cities of Berlin and Paris, your choices are Ryanair, Easyjet, Eurowings or Joon. Not even the night train goes direct anymore.


As you just stated, there are atleast 4 choice. That is 3 more than the usual.
 
yycdel
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Thu May 10, 2018 11:42 pm

c933103 wrote:
While it is true that Indian like to carry a lot of baggages around - Could maybe a US$100 difference per each return ticket make them change the habit?


No.
$100 is nothing on a longhaul ticket.

It would probably have to be close to 50% of the cost of a full service airline.

If full-service is $1000, Wow would need to be near $500-600.

Otherwise when you add ulcc charges like baggage, food, entertainment etc you are at close to full service prices but without Alliance connection options or FF benefits.
 
Whalejet
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 1:34 am

I think there's a way to make this even worse for ME3. India is bigger than most people realize, and the trains are horrid and slow. Delhi is ultimately only one city, out of perhaps 10-20 viable destinations.

So, my question is this: how effective would a WOW-IndiGo partnership be? The way I see it, it is a huge potential way to funnel low cost Indian domestic traffic overseas for a very low price.
 
anshabhi
Topic Author
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 2:20 am

Whalejet wrote:
I think there's a way to make this even worse for ME3. India is bigger than most people realize, and the trains are horrid and slow. Delhi is ultimately only one city, out of perhaps 10-20 viable destinations.

So, my question is this: how effective would a WOW-IndiGo partnership be? The way I see it, it is a huge potential way to funnel low cost Indian domestic traffic overseas for a very low price.

IndiGo is exploring its own long haul operations and thus the possibility of them code sharing with any other long haul airline are slim. That's why they don't have any partnerships with long haul airlines yet, probably.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 6:02 am

Slash787 wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
BOMFlyer wrote:
Could India and Iceland sign a new bilateral if WOW exhausts the current one? Because it is very restrictive and quite old (I think it was signed in 2005).


Well, that hasn't worked for Turkish Airlines and Qatar Airways.


Can you tell what bilateral have they signed?


Turkey for instance has signed a bilateral that offers TK 14 flights a week, which they have maxed out with daily frequencies to DEL and BOM. On the other hand, no Indian carrier flies to IST or anywhere in Turkey so the MoCA here will not budge on this bilateral until Indian carriers hit the ceiling on their limit. As a result, TK are effectively 'stuck' and can't expand further into India.

Likewise with Qatar, though they have more than 14 flights a week permitted obviously.
Vahroone
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 10:36 am

yycdel wrote:
c933103 wrote:
While it is true that Indian like to carry a lot of baggages around - Could maybe a US$100 difference per each return ticket make them change the habit?


No.
$100 is nothing on a longhaul ticket.

It would probably have to be close to 50% of the cost of a full service airline.

If full-service is $1000, Wow would need to be near $500-600.

Otherwise when you add ulcc charges like baggage, food, entertainment etc you are at close to full service prices but without Alliance connection options or FF benefits.


DTW-KEF-TLV on WoW is $900-$1600, with WoW premium sold out. This is not going to be about cheap fares, it is about unserved markets legacies are ignoring.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 1:49 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
yycdel wrote:
c933103 wrote:
While it is true that Indian like to carry a lot of baggages around - Could maybe a US$100 difference per each return ticket make them change the habit?


No.
$100 is nothing on a longhaul ticket.

It would probably have to be close to 50% of the cost of a full service airline.

If full-service is $1000, Wow would need to be near $500-600.

Otherwise when you add ulcc charges like baggage, food, entertainment etc you are at close to full service prices but without Alliance connection options or FF benefits.


DTW-KEF-TLV on WoW is $900-$1600, with WoW premium sold out. This is not going to be about cheap fares, it is about unserved markets legacies are ignoring.


Totally agree. Or super hubs like DTW that don't have a lot of non alliance options. The flip side would be if UA adds a EWR-BLR/HYD/MAA that would at least increase the potential one-step options from most major US cities (I know its not happening soon but maybe BLR)
 
Antarius
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 2:00 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
yycdel wrote:
c933103 wrote:
While it is true that Indian like to carry a lot of baggages around - Could maybe a US$100 difference per each return ticket make them change the habit?


No.
$100 is nothing on a longhaul ticket.

It would probably have to be close to 50% of the cost of a full service airline.

If full-service is $1000, Wow would need to be near $500-600.

Otherwise when you add ulcc charges like baggage, food, entertainment etc you are at close to full service prices but without Alliance connection options or FF benefits.


DTW-KEF-TLV on WoW is $900-$1600, with WoW premium sold out. This is not going to be about cheap fares, it is about unserved markets legacies are ignoring.


Theres tons of 1 stop options between DTW and TLV already. This isn't an unserved option.
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 2:15 pm

Antarius wrote:
...

Theres tons of 1 stop options between DTW and TLV already. This isn't an unserved option.


I picked TLV example as that is the farthest east bound flight currently operated by WoW to get an approximate fare range to India. I am not a travel agent to keep tabs on how many one-stop options DTW-TLV has.

USA-India on WoW is not going to be $500 RT. Price lowering and capacity dumping is the duty of CN3,ME3 and TK.
 
klm617
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 5:59 pm

Antarius wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
yycdel wrote:

No.
$100 is nothing on a longhaul ticket.

It would probably have to be close to 50% of the cost of a full service airline.

If full-service is $1000, Wow would need to be near $500-600.

Otherwise when you add ulcc charges like baggage, food, entertainment etc you are at close to full service prices but without Alliance connection options or FF benefits.


DTW-KEF-TLV on WoW is $900-$1600, with WoW premium sold out. This is not going to be about cheap fares, it is about unserved markets legacies are ignoring.


Theres tons of 1 stop options between DTW and TLV already. This isn't an unserved option.



There are ZERO one stop options out of DTW at 2/3 of half the price that the legacies are charging. It's a common misconception on this forum that most people have $1500 to $2000 just laying around to shell out for a long haul ticket. The US3 are completely ignoring the travel that is on a tight budget who want to take his family home for a visit and for those people these airlines are a good send.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 6:03 pm

Antarius wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
yycdel wrote:

No.
$100 is nothing on a longhaul ticket.

It would probably have to be close to 50% of the cost of a full service airline.

If full-service is $1000, Wow would need to be near $500-600.

Otherwise when you add ulcc charges like baggage, food, entertainment etc you are at close to full service prices but without Alliance connection options or FF benefits.


DTW-KEF-TLV on WoW is $900-$1600, with WoW premium sold out. This is not going to be about cheap fares, it is about unserved markets legacies are ignoring.


Theres tons of 1 stop options between DTW and TLV already. This isn't an unserved option.


With that comment please tell me what warrants DFW-KEF to go from zero direct flights to 3 direct flights over night ? Certainly DFW had all kinds of one stop options to KEF and I can't imagine there is that much O/D between DFW-KEF so why do you make that comment about Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Antarius
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 6:16 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Antarius wrote:
...

Theres tons of 1 stop options between DTW and TLV already. This isn't an unserved option.


I picked TLV example as that is the farthest east bound flight currently operated by WoW to get an approximate fare range to India. I am not a travel agent to keep tabs on how many one-stop options DTW-TLV has.

USA-India on WoW is not going to be $500 RT. Price lowering and capacity dumping is the duty of CN3,ME3 and TK.


I'm not debating price. I'm arguing calling the route underserved. That's all.
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
Antarius
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 6:17 pm

klm617 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

DTW-KEF-TLV on WoW is $900-$1600, with WoW premium sold out. This is not going to be about cheap fares, it is about unserved markets legacies are ignoring.


Theres tons of 1 stop options between DTW and TLV already. This isn't an unserved option.



There are ZERO one stop options out of DTW at 2/3 of half the price that the legacies are charging. It's a common misconception on this forum that most people have $1500 to $2000 just laying around to shell out for a long haul ticket. The US3 are completely ignoring the travel that is on a tight budget who want to take his family home for a visit and for those people these airlines are a good send.


Sure. That's called supply and demand.

I have no issues with Wow starting service. More is better. But it's not this glaring hole in service that it is being portrayed to be.if it was that bad, someone would have entered a long time ago.

This is a natural evolution of service. And a good one for consumers. That's all
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
klm617
Posts: 3145
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 6:28 pm

Antarius wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Theres tons of 1 stop options between DTW and TLV already. This isn't an unserved option.



There are ZERO one stop options out of DTW at 2/3 of half the price that the legacies are charging. It's a common misconception on this forum that most people have $1500 to $2000 just laying around to shell out for a long haul ticket. The US3 are completely ignoring the travel that is on a tight budget who want to take his family home for a visit and for those people these airlines are a good send.


Sure. That's called supply and demand.

I have no issues with Wow starting service. More is better. But it's not this glaring hole in service that it is being portrayed to be.if it was that bad, someone would have entered a long time ago.

This is a natural evolution of service. And a good one for consumers. That's all


Sure there has always been plenty of over priced one stop links between DTW and India and that monopoly is about to be broken. Hopefully the 2 stop price sensitive EK customer will switch to this service further increasing the likelihood of WOW being a success.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 7:24 pm

Antarius wrote:

Sure. That's called supply and demand.

I have no issues with Wow starting service. More is better. But it's not this glaring hole in service that it is being portrayed to be.if it was that bad, someone would have entered a long time ago.

This is a natural evolution of service. And a good one for consumers. That's all


Right now it is not, WOW is just tipping its toes. Imagine 3 weekly to HYD, 3 weekly to AMD and 2 weekly to Kerala. Legacies/ME3 will be saying run for my life.

It can definitely fill in the gaps legacies left. Price doesn't matter.
 
Swadian
Posts: 374
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 7:33 pm

vadodara wrote:
Swadian wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Probably true for the likes of JFK, ORD, LAX and such. But unless QR is planning to add airports like CLE, PIT, CVG and so forth, that does not hold water. WoW can add lots of narrow bodies on N America to Iceland. Just like QR between Doha and S Asia.

In this battle, the advantage of geography likes with Iceland.


Not really due to QR's close proximity to India. WOW is not going to get Europe - India traffic or USA - Southeast Asia traffic.


As I mentioned, QR can fly narrow bodies to multiple Indian cities. Since the bilaterals are restricted, rumor of QR starting an airline in India. Imagine that will essentially funnel traffic to Doha.

However, what are the chances to see DOH-CLE or DOH-PIT or DOH-CVG and so forth?

Swadian wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Yes, the LCC's offer point 2 point; saves you hassel at congested airports.

The class of service on the legacies is not exactly luxuorious. Yet due to their super-hubs, their overhead is high and operations somewhat inefficient. The AF's of the world are certainly looking like endangered species. And so are hubs like Detroit and Minneapolis.


AA and DL will still do fine, but they don't fly to India. It's the EU3 that are really in trouble with LCCs, US3, CN3, and ME3 attacking them from all angles, not to mention TK and revanchist SU and AI. Smaller airlines like AY may actually find themselves doing better.


It appears that only IAG thru BA/Iberia seems to be adjusting to the new reality. Unlike AA/DL, they have not blocked Norwegian's expansion of service from LGW to US.


What are the chances of WW flying KEF-AMD or KEF-HYD? Not much greater than QR flying DOH-DTW.

DY is bleeding money and dying anyway.

binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:
binayak wrote:
Yes they are and will be...


Unfortunately, one of the partners (AF) is increasingly looking like an endangered species!

Lets see how does their "Joon" work in India. BTW the last time i checked many flights during June of Joon (BOM CDG) are fully sold in Y and the fares of the few remaining seats are not much less than 9W's. Perhaps due to high demand?


AF should not have launched Joon, they would've done better with Basic Economy.
Inland Streamliner
 
winginit
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 7:35 pm

klm617 wrote:
Sure there has always been plenty of over priced one stop links between DTW and India and that monopoly is about to be broken.


I'd be curious to your definition of 'monopoly', because your statement that there have been 'plenty of over priced one stop links' and yet that the 'monopoly is about to be broken' makes no sense. Do you know what a monopoly is?

There are at the very least four different carriers who can provide wholly online one-stop service between DTW and India - that's not a monopoly.
 
IndyHoosier
Posts: 55
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 7:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Sure. That's called supply and demand.

I have no issues with Wow starting service. More is better. But it's not this glaring hole in service that it is being portrayed to be.if it was that bad, someone would have entered a long time ago.

This is a natural evolution of service. And a good one for consumers. That's all


Right now it is not, WOW is just tipping its toes. Imagine 3 weekly to HYD, 3 weekly to AMD and 2 weekly to Kerala. Legacies/ME3 will be saying run for my life.

It can definitely fill in the gaps legacies left. Price doesn't matter.


That is not going to happen unless the current bilateral between India and Iceland is changed. It only allows for Icelandic carriers to fly 7 flights to one airport in India and 7 flights to another. I don't see any reason why India would want to change this.
 
winginit
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 7:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Sure. That's called supply and demand.

I have no issues with Wow starting service. More is better. But it's not this glaring hole in service that it is being portrayed to be.if it was that bad, someone would have entered a long time ago.

This is a natural evolution of service. And a good one for consumers. That's all


Right now it is not, WOW is just tipping its toes. Imagine 3 weekly to HYD, 3 weekly to AMD and 2 weekly to Kerala. Legacies/ME3 will be saying run for my life.

It can definitely fill in the gaps legacies left. Price doesn't matter.


The India-Iceland bilateral is a thing and Indian carriers have no interest in allowing Icelandic carriers to make a dent in the US-India market soooo.... no.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6066
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 8:33 pm

IndyHoosier wrote:
...
That is not going to happen unless the current bilateral between India and Iceland is changed. It only allows for Icelandic carriers to fly 7 flights to one airport in India and 7 flights to another. I don't see any reason why India would want to change this.


That is history, it already changed. According to new Indian aviation policy >5000km @DEL is open-skies, weather Indian carriers like it or not.

Swadian wrote:
What are the chances of WW flying KEF-AMD or KEF-HYD? Not much greater than QR flying DOH-DTW.

DY is bleeding money and dying anyway.


WW is not looking for same yields. ME3 have no motivation to open DTW. QR/EY funneling thru ORD, EK thru BOS.

DY has too many planes and way too many AOCs. This is one small hub and handful of A321s and A330s. It is not going to be bleed money like Norwegian.
 
winginit
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 8:36 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
IndyHoosier wrote:
...
That is not going to happen unless the current bilateral between India and Iceland is changed. It only allows for Icelandic carriers to fly 7 flights to one airport in India and 7 flights to another. I don't see any reason why India would want to change this.


That is history, it already changed. According to new Indian aviation policy >5000km @DEL is open-skies, weather Indian carriers like it or not.


Source? That's admittedly not a bilateral I follow but I was unaware of that change.

I may be interpreting it incorrectly, but this article (it's old I know) implies there is no open skies outside of SAARC nations. This article (more recent) speaks to the 5000KM open skies that you alluded to, but I've no source to say it's been put into effect but merely discussed.
Last edited by winginit on Fri May 11, 2018 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 8:46 pm

winginit wrote:
Source? That's admittedly not a bilateral I follow but I was unaware of that change.


Page 14 Section 9b

http://www.civilaviation.gov.in/sites/d ... 2016-1.pdf
 
winginit
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 8:47 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
winginit wrote:
Source? That's admittedly not a bilateral I follow but I was unaware of that change.


Page 14 Section 9b

http://www.civilaviation.gov.in/sites/d ... 2016-1.pdf


Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure that checks the box you might want to read that again. It says they 'will' enter into an Open Sky agreement and that Unlimited flights 'will' be allowed. It doesn't say it's in place, which jives with my second posted article from July 2017 which says it won't be until 2020 at the earliest.

https://www.news18.com/news/business/in ... 60835.html

So unless I'm missing something, by my interpretation of both of those sources that change has not been made, and likely won't be for several years.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 9:03 pm

winginit wrote:
Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure that checks the box you might want to read that again. It says they 'will' enter into an Open Sky agreement and that Unlimited flights 'will' be allowed. It doesn't say it's in place, which jives with my second posted article from July 2017 which says it won't be until 2020 at the earliest.

https://www.news18.com/news/business/in ... 60835.html

So unless I'm missing something, by my interpretation of both of those sources that change has not been made, and likely won't be for several years.


So you are saying a random news article is accurate than "final" version of policy document posted on civil aviation site.

Greece signed. Netherlands and Sweden requested, status unknown
https://www.hindustantimes.com/business ... dsrqJ.html

Japan,Jamaica, Greece, Guyana, Finland, Czech Republic, Spain Sri Lanka and Bangladesh
https://mediaindia.eu/aviation/india-ja ... agreement/
 
klm617
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 9:36 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
IndyHoosier wrote:
...
That is not going to happen unless the current bilateral between India and Iceland is changed. It only allows for Icelandic carriers to fly 7 flights to one airport in India and 7 flights to another. I don't see any reason why India would want to change this.


That is history, it already changed. According to new Indian aviation policy >5000km @DEL is open-skies, weather Indian carriers like it or not.

Swadian wrote:
What are the chances of WW flying KEF-AMD or KEF-HYD? Not much greater than QR flying DOH-DTW.

DY is bleeding money and dying anyway.


WW is not looking for same yields. ME3 have no motivation to open DTW. QR/EY funneling thru ORD, EK thru BOS.

DY has too many planes and way too many AOCs. This is one small hub and handful of A321s and A330s. It is not going to be bleed money like Norwegian.



ME3 Has all the motivation in the world if people would stop using these stupid routings that they are expected to fly. There is plenty of room at DTW for one ME3 carrier to be successful.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 9:39 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Sure there has always been plenty of over priced one stop links between DTW and India and that monopoly is about to be broken.


I'd be curious to your definition of 'monopoly', because your statement that there have been 'plenty of over priced one stop links' and yet that the 'monopoly is about to be broken' makes no sense. Do you know what a monopoly is?

There are at the very least four different carriers who can provide wholly online one-stop service between DTW and India - that's not a monopoly.


Read the post there are no cost effective one stop flights from Detroit to India only the high priced service that the legacies offer. The only reasonably priced flights out of the greater Detroit area are out of YQG.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
vadodara
Posts: 620
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Fri May 11, 2018 9:47 pm

Swadian wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Swadian wrote:

Not really due to QR's close proximity to India. WOW is not going to get Europe - India traffic or USA - Southeast Asia traffic.


As I mentioned, QR can fly narrow bodies to multiple Indian cities. Since the bilaterals are restricted, rumor of QR starting an airline in India. Imagine that will essentially funnel traffic to Doha.

However, what are the chances to see DOH-CLE or DOH-PIT or DOH-CVG and so forth?

Swadian wrote:

AA and DL will still do fine, but they don't fly to India. It's the EU3 that are really in trouble with LCCs, US3, CN3, and ME3 attacking them from all angles, not to mention TK and revanchist SU and AI. Smaller airlines like AY may actually find themselves doing better.


It appears that only IAG thru BA/Iberia seems to be adjusting to the new reality. Unlike AA/DL, they have not blocked Norwegian's expansion of service from LGW to US.


What are the chances of WW flying KEF-AMD or KEF-HYD? Not much greater than QR flying DOH-DTW.

DY is bleeding money and dying anyway.


Again, had mentioned previously that QR runs lots of narrow-bodies to numerous Indian cities. Starting an Indian airline is another way of adding even more.

The point is that several cities such as PIT, CVG, CLE and so forth have a pretty low chance of snagging a ME3. And their levels of income are pretty high c.w. an average Indian. WW has a good chance of picking a few of these cities.
 
winginit
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Mon May 14, 2018 5:53 am

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Sure there has always been plenty of over priced one stop links between DTW and India and that monopoly is about to be broken.


I'd be curious to your definition of 'monopoly', because your statement that there have been 'plenty of over priced one stop links' and yet that the 'monopoly is about to be broken' makes no sense. Do you know what a monopoly is?

There are at the very least four different carriers who can provide wholly online one-stop service between DTW and India - that's not a monopoly.


Read the post there are no cost effective one stop flights from Detroit to India only the high priced service that the legacies offer. The only reasonably priced flights out of the greater Detroit area are out of YQG.


and what is your definition of 'reasonably' priced and 'cost effective'? Surely you're aware that what you define as 'reasonably' priced is likely in sharp contrast to what someone else might find 'reasonably' priced?
 
winginit
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Mon May 14, 2018 5:56 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
winginit wrote:
Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure that checks the box you might want to read that again. It says they 'will' enter into an Open Sky agreement and that Unlimited flights 'will' be allowed. It doesn't say it's in place, which jives with my second posted article from July 2017 which says it won't be until 2020 at the earliest.

https://www.news18.com/news/business/in ... 60835.html

So unless I'm missing something, by my interpretation of both of those sources that change has not been made, and likely won't be for several years.


So you are saying a random news article is accurate than "final" version of policy document posted on civil aviation site.

Greece signed. Netherlands and Sweden requested, status unknown
https://www.hindustantimes.com/business ... dsrqJ.html

Japan,Jamaica, Greece, Guyana, Finland, Czech Republic, Spain Sri Lanka and Bangladesh
https://mediaindia.eu/aviation/india-ja ... agreement/


... So I'm criticized for citing a 'random news article' and then you come back at me with two random news articles? Interesting.

Has Iceland signed? That's what's relevant to this conversation obviously
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7410
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Mon May 14, 2018 9:26 am

WOW is a small airline. So when starting to fly to India they do not need a big share of the market to make it viable for them. It will be and addition to the current destinations and will help to fill the current flights between KEF and North America better.
 
klm617
Posts: 3145
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Mon May 14, 2018 10:18 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:

I'd be curious to your definition of 'monopoly', because your statement that there have been 'plenty of over priced one stop links' and yet that the 'monopoly is about to be broken' makes no sense. Do you know what a monopoly is?

There are at the very least four different carriers who can provide wholly online one-stop service between DTW and India - that's not a monopoly.


Read the post there are no cost effective one stop flights from Detroit to India only the high priced service that the legacies offer. The only reasonably priced flights out of the greater Detroit area are out of YQG.


and what is your definition of 'reasonably' priced and 'cost effective'? Surely you're aware that what you define as 'reasonably' priced is likely in sharp contrast to what someone else might find 'reasonably' priced?


To Europe from $400 to $600 in the winter and from $600 to $800 in the summer months.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6066
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Mon May 14, 2018 10:46 am

winginit wrote:
... So I'm criticized for citing a 'random news article' and then you come back at me with two random news articles? Interesting.

Has Iceland signed? That's what's relevant to this conversation obviously


I haven't claimed Iceland already signed open-skies with India. I said it is a simple request. You were trying to interpret India has no open-skies policy in-place and at-least few years away from signing with any one.

At one meeting in Bahamas, India signed open-skies with five countries. It is that simple.
 
BOMFlyer
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:47 am

Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Mon May 14, 2018 2:21 pm

So it looks like WOW has added a schedule for Delhi; 3x weekly at first then increasing to 5x a week from Jan 2019.

I really think adding BOM flights will also be good. If only the bilateral didn't restrict them to 2 cities, maybe they could do 5x DEL, 5x BOM, 4x BLR or summat.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/278614/wow-air-plans-delhi-launch-in-dec-2018/
 
winginit
Posts: 1578
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Mon May 14, 2018 5:37 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I haven't claimed Iceland already signed open-skies with India. I said it is a simple request


How is your below quote from earlier in the thread not directly implying that the bilateral between India and Iceland had already changed?

dtw2hyd wrote:
IndyHoosier wrote:
...
That is not going to happen unless the current bilateral between India and Iceland is changed. It only allows for Icelandic carriers to fly 7 flights to one airport in India and 7 flights to another. I don't see any reason why India would want to change this.


That is history, it already changed. According to new Indian aviation policy >5000km @DEL is open-skies, weather Indian carriers like it or not.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Mon May 14, 2018 6:06 pm

winginit wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I haven't claimed Iceland already signed open-skies with India. I said it is a simple request


How is your below quote from earlier in the thread not directly implying that the bilateral between India and Iceland had already changed?

dtw2hyd wrote:
IndyHoosier wrote:
...
That is not going to happen unless the current bilateral between India and Iceland is changed. It only allows for Icelandic carriers to fly 7 flights to one airport in India and 7 flights to another. I don't see any reason why India would want to change this.


That is history, it already changed. According to new Indian aviation policy >5000km @DEL is open-skies, weather Indian carriers like it or not.


No, you are just on a fishing expedition. If you were following the thread I made it very clear....

dtw2hyd wrote:
Hope Iceland applies for India open-skies, which is automatic approval for countries beyond 5000km@DEL.


Let it go.
 
klm617
Posts: 3145
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Mon May 14, 2018 7:25 pm

BOMFlyer wrote:
So it looks like WOW has added a schedule for Delhi; 3x weekly at first then increasing to 5x a week from Jan 2019.

I really think adding BOM flights will also be good. If only the bilateral didn't restrict them to 2 cities, maybe they could do 5x DEL, 5x BOM, 4x BLR or summat.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/278614/wow-air-plans-delhi-launch-in-dec-2018/


That's awesome those flights are going to line up pretty good with the Detroit flights.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
BOMFlyer
Posts: 23
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Tue May 15, 2018 11:40 am

I already posted this in the Indian Aviation forum, but I felt that I should post this here too:

I'm kind of disappointed honestly. I expected it, but still. Wow air's return fares to KEF are starting at INR 26K inclusive of only a personal item (not even your usual 7kg carry-on). The minimum increase is to INR 41K, inclusive of a personal item, a carry-on and a checked bag. IMO, not that much more competitive than the one-stop options like Finnair or Lufthansa, which give you included meals and probably have better service, especially when you consider that if you're not flying from DEL, you'll have to spend another 6K minimum to fly there, while Lufthansa/BA/AF offer one-stops from other metros too.

And when it comes to TATL connections, it's even worse. Check the Wow website for yourself. Personal item-only fares to eastern US/Canada start at 49K. If you want checked bags and hand baggage (still no meal), it's 65K minimum. This feels like a joke. Lufthansa, BA, AF have bigger operations in India, they give free meals, checked and cabin baggage for almost the same price that WOW is charging for personal items only, and seeing what people are saying about KEF, these airlines have better connecting airports.

I don't know if WOW will be able to make India work unless it actually charges lower fares.
 
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Spiderguy252
Posts: 942
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Tue May 15, 2018 11:52 am

IMO this is not going to work for WOW Air. Fares aside, they also need to be aggressive with their marketing.

Happy to be proven wrong.
Vahroone
 
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vhtje
Posts: 837
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Tue May 15, 2018 12:03 pm

I flew WOW this week. In fact, I am in Reykjavik as I type this. My advice is to be cautious. A Google search will uncover horror stories of poor customer service, particularly when things go awry (although WW would hardly be alone amongst LCCs in this regard). WW in particular have a reputation for offering rock-bottom baseline fares, but loading up significantly on extras like checking a bag, having a carry on bag, choosing a seat, food and drink etc making the flight not so much better value after all. I ended up paying £304 for my flight with all the extras (no food though). BA wanted £352 for a comparable flight, but I needed to be here on Sunday not Monday, so WOW got my business.

My experience with them flying to KEF on Sunday was good: they departed STN slightly late but arrived into KEF two minutes ahead of schedule. The aircraft was new and clean. Crew were efficient (if a little cold). I brought my own food, but paid an eye-watering £10 for a G&T on board (but then again, I am finding Iceland pretty expensive).

I had one small problem with WW - when booking the flight on Sunday morning, I had paid for a 35" pitch "XXL" seat, even choosing my (window) seat at point of purchase. However at check-in a few hours later, I was assigned a standard middle seat in the rear of the aircraft, despite my receipt showing my XXL seat purchase. Thankfully the check-in agent was able to assign me an XXL Window seat albeit not the one I had selected. I would be interested to know how my selection had been "lost"...

This guy had a similar experience to myself regarding mysteriously losing the booked seats on his return KEF to SFO WOW flight, but sadly it did not work out as well for him as it did for myself:

https://medium.com/@iamnayr/why-i-will- ... c7892e8904
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
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Ytraveller
Posts: 1278
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Tue May 15, 2018 2:07 pm

I noticed that flights from North America to DEL have somewhat long layover times in KEF (6 to 8 hours), arriving there around 4 to 5 am while the flight to DEL does not leave until 12 pm. (Layover time on the return trip tends to be much better, around 1.5 to 3 hours.) Would pax be okay with this?
 
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lesfalls
Posts: 3144
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Tue May 15, 2018 2:40 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
m007j wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I wouldn't mind paying $1300-$1700 to WoW if I they offer one-stop to HYD, rather than 30 hour two-stop for same fare. Don't need two fully loaded bags. I can eat at home, buy a pizza slice at North Terminal and a sandwich at KEF.

I'm the same way as you, I travel light and I eat whatever I can find, but we're two small fish in a very large ocean. I'd happily fly WOW, even if it means 2-stop for me (I fly to MAA) if it'll save me a couple hundred bucks. For the majority of people, that couple hundred isn't going to keep them from the convenience of going full-service.


dangerhere wrote:
The way I see it, starting somewhere like Detroit is always going to put you at a disadvantage.


Not sure where you got the idea I am looking for cheap fares. I will pay $1700 to WoW if it offers DTW-HYD one-stop.

DTW-HYD had TWO one-stops SkyTeam DTW-AMS-HYD and Lufthansa DTW-FRA-HYD before ME3 started dumping capacity. We were about to get BA DTW-LHR-HYD. KL/LH pulled out of HYD and BA pulled out of DTW. Lost all one-stops.

We used to pay $2700, now paying $1300-$1700.

When I moved to US, people used to make fun of Biman taking 3 days from India to USA. 25 years later, not much better.


Well as of now the WOW fares for DEL from DTW are averaging out at $800 RT:

https://booking.wowair.com/search?fromC ... 1460172551
My Instagram account: @Jfkmxpairlinespotting
 
Jshank83
Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Tue May 15, 2018 3:24 pm

I didn't see this posted (I could have missed it) but these are the US markets that will have access to the Delhi routes.

Boston (BOS), New York (EWR), Washington D.C. (BWI), Chicago (ORD), Pittsburgh (PIT), Detroit (DTW), San Francisco (SFO), Los Angeles (LAX) and St. Louis (STL) to Dehli (DEL) via Iceland.

https://www.benzinga.com/pressreleases/ ... ia-iceland
 
klm617
Posts: 3145
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Tue May 15, 2018 3:53 pm

lesfalls wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
m007j wrote:
I'm the same way as you, I travel light and I eat whatever I can find, but we're two small fish in a very large ocean. I'd happily fly WOW, even if it means 2-stop for me (I fly to MAA) if it'll save me a couple hundred bucks. For the majority of people, that couple hundred isn't going to keep them from the convenience of going full-service.


dangerhere wrote:
The way I see it, starting somewhere like Detroit is always going to put you at a disadvantage.


Not sure where you got the idea I am looking for cheap fares. I will pay $1700 to WoW if it offers DTW-HYD one-stop.

DTW-HYD had TWO one-stops SkyTeam DTW-AMS-HYD and Lufthansa DTW-FRA-HYD before ME3 started dumping capacity. We were about to get BA DTW-LHR-HYD. KL/LH pulled out of HYD and BA pulled out of DTW. Lost all one-stops.

We used to pay $2700, now paying $1300-$1700.

When I moved to US, people used to make fun of Biman taking 3 days from India to USA. 25 years later, not much better.


Well as of now the WOW fares for DEL from DTW are averaging out at $800 RT:

https://booking.wowair.com/search?fromC ... 1460172551


Also looks like WOW will change it's schedule into Detroit arriving at 445 pm and leaving at 555 pm.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Dieuwer
Posts: 368
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Why WOW and not IcelandAir? Is IcelandAir fizzling out??
 
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stl07
Posts: 780
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Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Tue May 15, 2018 10:40 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Why WOW and not IcelandAir? Is IcelandAir fizzling out??

They cancelled their widebody orders so they have no way of making it to india, unlike WOW who has multiple widebodies on order and in possession.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7410
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Wed May 16, 2018 1:51 am

stl07 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Why WOW and not IcelandAir? Is IcelandAir fizzling out??

They cancelled their widebody orders so they have no way of making it to india, unlike WOW who has multiple widebodies on order and in possession.


Icelandair has 4 767-300ER, but they use them rather on their current routes.
 
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stl07
Posts: 780
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Wed May 16, 2018 1:54 am

mjoelnir wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Why WOW and not IcelandAir? Is IcelandAir fizzling out??

They cancelled their widebody orders so they have no way of making it to india, unlike WOW who has multiple widebodies on order and in possession.


Icelandair has 4 767-300ER, but they use them rather on their current routes.

Yes, sry I should have been more clear- Icelandair doesn't have any more room for expansion but wow does because they have widebodies on order, unlike FI who canceled them.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7410
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Wed May 16, 2018 2:04 am

stl07 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
stl07 wrote:
They cancelled their widebody orders so they have no way of making it to india, unlike WOW who has multiple widebodies on order and in possession.


Icelandair has 4 767-300ER, but they use them rather on their current routes.

Yes, sry I should have been more clear- Icelandair doesn't have any more room for expansion but wow does because they have widebodies on order, unlike FI who canceled them.


Icelandair still has one 787-8 on order. The 767 were bought after they sold their other 787 slots to Norwegian. If Icelandair wants to add some destination in Asia, it is possible to buy used frames. Icelandair owns most of its frames, whereas WOW leases all its frames. Icelandair is pondering Asian destinations.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 780
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Wed May 16, 2018 3:01 am

mjoelnir wrote:
stl07 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Icelandair has 4 767-300ER, but they use them rather on their current routes.

Yes, sry I should have been more clear- Icelandair doesn't have any more room for expansion but wow does because they have widebodies on order, unlike FI who canceled them.


Icelandair still has one 787-8 on order. The 767 were bought after they sold their other 787 slots to Norwegian. If Icelandair wants to add some destination in Asia, it is possible to buy used frames. Icelandair owns most of its frames, whereas WOW leases all its frames. Icelandair is pondering Asian destinations.

Interesting did not know that- thank you. I guess a layover in Iceland is a hard sell when you are a more traditional carrier that doesn't offer a huge selling point in relation to the ME3
 
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hvusslax
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:35 pm

Re: Wow Air to announce flights to Delhi

Wed May 16, 2018 9:21 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Why WOW and not IcelandAir? Is IcelandAir fizzling out??


Icelandair has been showing impressive growth as well although they get much less media attention than those flashy purple planes. As a publicly traded company, Icelandair is also a lot more transparent with their financials than WOW and they are doing just fine. WOW is in a much riskier position and more likely to "fizzle out" if there is a oil price spike or an economic slowdown in their key markets, although I hope for the best for both carriers.

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