airplaneboy wrote:

They don’t charge for carry-ons, that’s one possible reason. And they don’t charge for checked bags, which also takes time to load and unload. So Southwest probably has more carry on baggage and checked baggage to load compared to Ryanair. Also WN does not normally deplane from both front and rear exits in most cities (minus a handful of exceptions). Doing so would I’m sure help turn flights faster.

You've almost certainly nailed it with the free checked baggage and single exit points. But Ryanair don't actually charge for carry-ons. Everyone gets to take a bag that will fit underneath the seat in front, and a larger bag too. The larger bag will be gatechecked free of charge unless the passenger has one of several ticket types including the word Plus, or purchases a package called Priority Plus Two Cabin Bags, in which case they can bring it into the cabin with them. The number of Plus tickets or packages sold per flight is restricted to make sure there is enough overhead space, and they can be merciless with oversize/overweight carry-on bags.
In fact the gatechecked carry-on must add to the volume the baggage handlers have to deal with.
And of course Ryanair, having tried SouthWest style free seating for years, has ended up with allocated/reserved seating instead, and finds it no slower to board.

G4 could easily be accommodated at DAL out of the 2 gates currently used by AS at DAL if AS drops DAL-SAN and DAL-SJC nonstop service. G4 is considering expansion into Dallas, and G4 serves some leisure destinations that WN does not serve. Destinations not served by WN that G4 could serve nonstop from DAL include AVL, BIL, BZN, CHA, VPS, GPT, FCA, TYS, MSO, MTJ, MYR, SRQ, and SAV. There is also more than enough room at DAL to accommodate G4's Saturday schedule since WN only does around 140 departures from DAL on Saturdays and since DL only has 3 daily nonstops in each direction between DAL and ATL on Saturdays.

MD80Man wrote:

I thought WN was touted as the low cost competitive carrier? And that DAL and DFW are the same market? It's pretty clear that WN's advantage is that they're closer to the downtown area. All things being equal at DFW, it sounds like you don't think their service offering could compete?

SWADawg wrote:

WN would be just fine at DFW. There are probably plenty of Ft. Worth area passengers that would consider WN if they flew from both DFW and DAL. As far as the pure coach product since that’s all that WN flies. I think 32” pitch with WiFi, 2 free bags, no change fees, and one of the easiest FF redemption in the industry will compete just fine out of either Airport.

SWADawg wrote:

I completely disagree with this. The delays at DFW aren’t really a factor in WN’s decision making process on whether to service an Airport anymore. Look no further than ATL, LGA, EWR, etc. I think WN will go to DFW (or at least threaten to) in 2024 if the Wright Restrictions on the 20 Gate cap are still in place at DAL. They will probably also want a decent number of gates when they do open DFW and will use DFW as a connection hub as well as to try and develop new markets. DFW can be used for connections and DAL can be used for O&D. This is exactly what WN is doing in MDW and STL. Route O&D over MDW and connections over STL. WN will have no problem doing just this when the time comes and they are no longer required to give up gates at DAL to serve DFW.

SWADawg wrote:

While I agree with your view on McKinney and Alliance as being good alternatives to DFW. WN isn’t the same Airline that is only interested in secondary Airports anymore. That changed the day they acquired FL and made ATL a large WN operation overnight. Remember, when DFW opened, WN was a VERY small Airline that would have been crushed operating out of the then new DFW. With a fleet size of 750 Airplanes by year end. WN is no longer that Airline. Trust me when I say that a 15 minute vs a 5 minute taxi is not going to deter WN from opening up DFW if they determine that that is the only viable way of growing their Metroplex operations.

bob75013 wrote:

The point is DFW is not the only viable way of WN growing metroplex operations.

superjeff wrote:

Agreed. The Wright Amendment needs to be gone forever, and the number of gates at DAL increased to meet whatever the demand is for gates. WN should be able to fly out of both DAL and DFW without penalty, and the airlines currently serving DFW should be allowed to get gates at DAL if they want, without penalty. Additionally, any new entrant wanting to serve only DAL or only DFW should be accommodated. in a deregulated marketplace (which is what we are saying we have), that is the sensible way to handle this.

I agree that WN could serve both DAL and DFW in 2025. The San Francisco Bay Area is also home to 2 WN focus city airports at OAK and SJC, and both OAK and SJC will each have more than 100 departures a day in 2019. WN could establish a focus city operation at a 2nd airport in the DFW Metroplex in addition to its DAL home base.

If WN does plan on establishing a 2nd focus city in the DFW Metroplex in addition to DAL, would it be at DFW, or would it be at another airport such as AFW or TKI?

jplatts wrote:

If WN does plan on establishing a 2nd focus city in the DFW Metroplex in addition to DAL, would it be at DFW, or would it be at another airport such as AFW or TKI?

IMO it depends on whether or not WN wants to fly internationally from Dallas. If yes, DFW probably makes the most sense.

If no, I expect McKinney or Ft. Worth or maybe both.

In any event, I can't see WN being very enthusiastic about paying for DFW airport improvements that mainly benefit AA.

bob75013 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

If WN does plan on establishing a 2nd focus city in the DFW Metroplex in addition to DAL, would it be at DFW, or would it be at another airport such as AFW or TKI?

IMO it depends on whether or not WN wants to fly internationally from Dallas. If yes, DFW probably makes the most sense.

If no, I expect McKinney or Ft. Worth or maybe both.

In any event, I can't see WN being very enthusiastic about paying for DFW airport improvements that mainly benefit AA.

DFW and TKI are approximately equidistant from the High Five Interchange (the I-635 / US 75 interchange) in Northeast Dallas. In addition to Collin County, TKI is also close enough to eastern Denton County, eastern Dallas County (including the easternmost portions of the City of Dallas), Rockwall County, and Kaufman County to serve as an viable alternative to DAL and DFW in the DFW Metroplex. Grayson County, the easternmost portion of Cooke County, Fannin County, and Hunt County in North Texas are all also in the catchment area of TKI.

TKI could also be a more attractive alternative to DFW and DAL if bus service (similar to airport limousine bus service in Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Bangkok, and Seoul) was added to various locations within the DFW Metroplex from TKI (and vice versa), including the following:

• Parker Road DART Light Rail Station in Plano
• Trinity Mills DART Light Rail Station in Carrollton
• Downtown Dallas
• The Stonebriar area in Frisco
• The Legacy Business Park/Legacy Town Center area in Northwest Plano
• Old Town Lewisville DCTA A-Train station
• Addison (at a location near the Tollway somewhere in between Keller Springs Road and Spring Valley Road)
• Richardson (at a location near US 75)
• The Galleria area in North Dallas
• The Coit/LBJ area near the High Five Interchange in Northeast Dallas
• SMU main campus/Mockingbird Station area
• The Market Center/Medical District area in Dallas
• Las Colinas in Irving

If AFW is opened up to commercial passenger air service, bus service to Dallas and the eastern side of the DFW Metroplex (similar to airport limousine bus service) could be added from AFW to make AFW a more attractive alternative to DFW and DAL in the DFW Metroplex. Airport limousine bus service could also be added at DFW and DAL in addition to TKI (and AFW if it is opened up to commercial passenger air service).

There is an article titled "Southwest, Delta respond to Dallas' proposal to solve Love Field dispute" published in the Dallas Business Journal, and that article can be found at https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2018/06/14/southwest-delta-dallas-love-field-airport.html.

jplatts wrote:

bob75013 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

If WN does plan on establishing a 2nd focus city in the DFW Metroplex in addition to DAL, would it be at DFW, or would it be at another airport such as AFW or TKI?

IMO it depends on whether or not WN wants to fly internationally from Dallas. If yes, DFW probably makes the most sense.

If no, I expect McKinney or Ft. Worth or maybe both.

In any event, I can't see WN being very enthusiastic about paying for DFW airport improvements that mainly benefit AA.

DFW and TKI are approximately equidistant from the High Five Interchange (the I-635 / US 75 interchange) in Northeast Dallas. In addition to Collin County, TKI is also close enough to eastern Denton County, eastern Dallas County (including the easternmost portions of the City of Dallas), Rockwall County, and Kaufman County to serve as an viable alternative to DAL and DFW in the DFW Metroplex. Grayson County, the easternmost portion of Cooke County, Fannin County, and Hunt County in North Texas are all also in the catchment area of TKI.

TKI could also be a more attractive alternative to DFW and DAL if bus service (similar to airport limousine bus service in Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Bangkok, and Seoul) was added to various locations within the DFW Metroplex from TKI (and vice versa), including the following:

• Parker Road DART Light Rail Station in Plano
• Trinity Mills DART Light Rail Station in Carrollton
• Downtown Dallas
• The Stonebriar area in Frisco
• The Legacy Business Park/Legacy Town Center area in Northwest Plano
• Old Town Lewisville DCTA A-Train station
• Addison (at a location near the Tollway somewhere in between Keller Springs Road and Spring Valley Road)
• Richardson (at a location near US 75)
• The Galleria area in North Dallas
• The Coit/LBJ area near the High Five Interchange in Northeast Dallas
• SMU main campus/Mockingbird Station area
• The Market Center/Medical District area in Dallas
• Las Colinas in Irving

If AFW is opened up to commercial passenger air service, bus service to Dallas and the eastern side of the DFW Metroplex (similar to airport limousine bus service) could be added from AFW to make AFW a more attractive alternative to DFW and DAL in the DFW Metroplex. Airport limousine bus service could also be added at DFW and DAL in addition to TKI (and AFW if it is opened up to commercial passenger air service).

AFW isn't that much closer to downtown Fort Worth than DFW, and DFW already has passenger terminals including an international terminal.

CO777DAL wrote:

jplatts wrote:

An article titled "Southwest, Delta, American and more object to Dallas' Love Field gate plan" was published on the Dallas Morning News website today, and that article can be found at https://www.dallasnews.com/business/love-field/2018/05/25/southwest-delta-american-object-dallas-love-field-gate-plan.

The article states that WN, DL, AA, UA, and AS all object to the City of Dallas's proposal regarding gate usage at DAL. ...

While DAL is currently subject to the 20-gate limit under the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, the 5-party agreement can be changed to allow expansion of DAL beyond 20 gates if AA, WN, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, and the DFW International Airport Board agree to the proposed changes in writing and if Congress enacts legislation allowing expansion of DAL beyond 20 gates.

How should the DAL gate controversy be resolved?

Repel Wright Amendment and build more gates.

5 mins in Photoshop. 23 more gates making a total of 43


10 mins in Photoshop 30 more gates making a total of 53


If they really wanted too, they could build more gates at DAL. They have the space. At 50 gates everyone should be happy at DAL. DFW metro is only growing and growing and we will need more gates at DFW and DAL.

Enjoy the photoshopped images because this will never, ever happen.

EvanWSFO wrote:

CO777DAL wrote:

jplatts wrote:

An article titled "Southwest, Delta, American and more object to Dallas' Love Field gate plan" was published on the Dallas Morning News website today, and that article can be found at https://www.dallasnews.com/business/love-field/2018/05/25/southwest-delta-american-object-dallas-love-field-gate-plan.

The article states that WN, DL, AA, UA, and AS all object to the City of Dallas's proposal regarding gate usage at DAL. ...

While DAL is currently subject to the 20-gate limit under the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, the 5-party agreement can be changed to allow expansion of DAL beyond 20 gates if AA, WN, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, and the DFW International Airport Board agree to the proposed changes in writing and if Congress enacts legislation allowing expansion of DAL beyond 20 gates.

How should the DAL gate controversy be resolved?

Repel Wright Amendment and build more gates.

5 mins in Photoshop. 23 more gates making a total of 43


10 mins in Photoshop 30 more gates making a total of 53


If they really wanted too, they could build more gates at DAL. They have the space. At 50 gates everyone should be happy at DAL. DFW metro is only growing and growing and we will need more gates at DFW and DAL.

Enjoy the photoshopped images because this will never, ever happen.

First the city of Dallas wouldn't allow that many gates. There's no way DFW and the city of Fort Worth would agree to it, because the limitation on gates was agreed upon in order to eliminate the Wright Amendment. Last, DAL only has two runways. How would DAL be able to efficiently operate 50 more gates with two runways?

KMCOFlyer wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

EvanWSFO wrote:

Enjoy the photoshopped images because this will never, ever happen.

First the city of Dallas wouldn't allow that many gates. There's no way DFW and the city of Fort Worth would agree to it, because the limitation on gates was agreed upon in order to eliminate the Wright Amendment. Last, DAL only has two runways. How would DAL be able to efficiently operate 50 more gates with two runways?

I agree that DAL will never get 50 more gates (this isn’t 1967) but SAN has about 50 Gates and operates with only one runway so I’m sure DAL would be fine if they ever had that many gates to operate. (but they won’t)

SAN isn't a hub either. DAL acts as a hub for WN. They couldn't afford to have lots of delays.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

AFW isn't that much closer to downtown Fort Worth than DFW, and DFW already has passenger terminals including an international terminal.

AFW is approximately 17.5 miles from Sundance Square in Downtown Fort Worth, whereas Terminal C at DFW is 24.2 miles from Sundance Square in Downtown Fort Worth.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

First the city of Dallas wouldn't allow that many gates. There's no way DFW and the city of Fort Worth would agree to it, because the limitation on gates was agreed upon in order to eliminate the Wright Amendment. Last, DAL only has two runways. How would DAL be able to efficiently operate 50 more gates with two runways?

1) MDW has 43 gates and two runway that cannot be used simultaneously, and it does just fine. DAL's two runways can be used simultaneously.

2) By 2024 WN will expand somewhere in the Dallas area. Dallas, Ft. Worth, AA, and DFW cannot stop that. Given that, the realization that it will be leaving significant revenue on the table may be enough to get Dallas to change it's tune. Would Dallas rather have WN add flights at McKinney or Dallas?

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

bob75013 wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

First the city of Dallas wouldn't allow that many gates. There's no way DFW and the city of Fort Worth would agree to it, because the limitation on gates was agreed upon in order to eliminate the Wright Amendment. Last, DAL only has two runways. How would DAL be able to efficiently operate 50 more gates with two runways?

1) MDW has 43 gates and two runway that cannot be used simultaneously, and it does just fine. DAL's two runways can be used simultaneously.

2) By 2024 WN will expand somewhere in the Dallas area. Dallas, Ft. Worth, AA, and DFW cannot stop that. Given that, the realization that it will be leaving significant revenue on the table may be enough to get Dallas to change it's tune. Would Dallas rather have WN add flights at McKinney or Dallas?

But they can be used alternately.

freakyrat wrote:

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

The issue with DL having to wait on the tarmac at DAL until Gate 15 is available could be resolved by installing common use terminal equipment (CUTE) at DAL that would allow DL to use another gate at DAL if Gate 15 is in use by another airline. CUTE is already in use at some other U.S. airports that are currently served by WN, including ATL, BOS, DEN, RSW, LAS, LAX, MSP, EWR, MCO, PHX, PIT, RDU, SMF, SFO, SJC, and IAD.

So you want to install common user terminal equipment on gates that are not common use, why exactly would WN put its major operations in such a position?
The authorities of Dallas, Ft. Worth and AA put the 20 gate limit in giving WN 16 because they knew it would create this type situation where folks only see today, I still say WN should never have agreed to the new WA and should have continued the fight for full repeal. No matter how you cut it, 20 gates with 16 assigned to one carrier just looks bad, WN or no WN.

DGS ground services Alaska Air at Dallas but Delta doesn't have terminal equipment to use those gates. CUTE has been replaced by CUPPS and we have it in use at DFW terminal E.

Maybe the Justice Dept. or the Citry of Dallas should have stepped in and told United that they could sublease those two gates to anybody but WN.

I certainly agree that DAL is incredibly unlikely to get another 50 gates. But those who think this is because it can't work with just 2 runways should perhaps ask the folk at LGW how they manage with around 80 gates (plus around 50 remote stands) and a single runway. Now OK, there is a taxiway that can be used as a runway should the normal runway be out of service, but it isn't available for any kind of alternation, all the flights use the main runway, or all the flights use the backup. And LGW is a hub for BA, and even for Norwegian, quite apart from Easyjet having their largest base there. A380s, 744s, A330s, 777s, 787s are a daily sight there apart from the usual selection of 737 and A320 series planes.

DCA has 3 intersecting runways that cannot be used simultaneously, plus 45 gates, plus 14 remote stands for American Eagle regional jets. DCA also sits on a smaller footprint than DAL does. However, DCA does have slot restrictions that DAL does not have, and DCA also still has perimeter restrictions that restrict the number of beyond-perimeter nonstop flights out of DCA.

The slot restrictions prevent WN from fully utilizing its gates at DCA, but WN does have room to do at least 60 departures a day out of its existing gates at DCA if extra slots are added at DCA.

freakyrat wrote:

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

I have to be honest.... I can't believe that this is even worthy of a news report. A flight was on the ground 20 minutes early and then had to wait 40 additional minutes for the gate to open up?

The pilot told the passengers that THAT was the worst service he had ever seen? If they hadn't been early, they would have waiting a whopping 40 minutes for a gate and THAT'S he worst service he has ever seen?

Absolutely amazed that this is newsworthy.

bob75013 wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

First the city of Dallas wouldn't allow that many gates. There's no way DFW and the city of Fort Worth would agree to it, because the limitation on gates was agreed upon in order to eliminate the Wright Amendment. Last, DAL only has two runways. How would DAL be able to efficiently operate 50 more gates with two runways?

1) MDW has 43 gates and two runway that cannot be used simultaneously, and it does just fine. DAL's two runways can be used simultaneously.

2) By 2024 WN will expand somewhere in the Dallas area. Dallas, Ft. Worth, AA, and DFW cannot stop that. Given that, the realization that it will be leaving significant revenue on the table may be enough to get Dallas to change it's tune. Would Dallas rather have WN add flights at McKinney or Dallas?

You need to do a little more research on the agreements between Ft Worth and Dallas about DFW.

It is not all about the city of Dallas changing it's tune on the number of gates at DAL. If they try to expand they will be tied up in court for years to come with the city of Ft Worth.

itchief wrote:

bob75013 wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

First the city of Dallas wouldn't allow that many gates. There's no way DFW and the city of Fort Worth would agree to it, because the limitation on gates was agreed upon in order to eliminate the Wright Amendment. Last, DAL only has two runways. How would DAL be able to efficiently operate 50 more gates with two runways?

1) MDW has 43 gates and two runway that cannot be used simultaneously, and it does just fine. DAL's two runways can be used simultaneously.

2) By 2024 WN will expand somewhere in the Dallas area. Dallas, Ft. Worth, AA, and DFW cannot stop that. Given that, the realization that it will be leaving significant revenue on the table may be enough to get Dallas to change it's tune. Would Dallas rather have WN add flights at McKinney or Dallas?

You need to do a little more research on the agreements between Ft Worth and Dallas about DFW.

It is not all about the city of Dallas changing it's tune on the number of gates at DAL. If they try to expand they will be tied up in court for years to come with the city of Ft Worth.

I thought people in Dallas also wanted the gate restrictions as a way of decreasing noise.

By 2024, this thread may surpass the previous threads on the W.A. as well as the never ending DC9 and 757 conversations.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

I thought people in Dallas also wanted the gate restrictions as a way of decreasing noise.

Good point, but WN and AS will be taking delivery of additional Boeing 737 MAX planes, and WN is also already operating some Boeing 737 MAX 8 planes. DL will also be taking delivery of CS100 and A321neo planes. The noise will be less of an problem at DAL once WN, AS, and DL take delivery of additional newer generation aircraft that are quieter than Boeing 737NG and Airbus A320ceo family aircraft. I expect the noise levels in the vicinity of DAL to be much quieter in 10 years from now than is the case today since more of the commercial flights out of DAL will be on newer generation aircraft such as the 737 MAX 8 or CS100 in 10 years from now.

jplatts wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

I thought people in Dallas also wanted the gate restrictions as a way of decreasing noise.

Good point, but WN and AS will be taking delivery of additional Boeing 737 MAX planes, and WN is also already operating some Boeing 737 MAX 8 planes. DL will also be taking delivery of CS100 and A321neo planes. The noise will be less of an problem at DAL once WN, AS, and DL take delivery of additional newer generation aircraft that are quieter than Boeing 737NG and Airbus A320ceo family aircraft. I expect the noise levels in the vicinity of DAL to be much quieter in 10 years from now than is the case today since more of the commercial flights out of DAL will be on newer generation aircraft such as the 737 MAX 8 or CS100 in 10 years from now.

DAL and HOU act as hubs for intra-Texas flights. Those have always tended to be the oldest planes in the WN fleet. Till around 2005, they were on 732's. Till a couple of years ago they were on 735's. Till the end of last September they were on 733's.

par13del wrote:

So you want to install common user terminal equipment on gates that are not common use, why exactly would WN put its major operations in such a position?

Subsection (b) of Section 3 of Article I of the 5-party agreement says that "If the existing carriers are not able or are not willing to accommodate the new entrant service, then the City of Dallas agrees to require the sharing of preferential lease gates, pursuant to Dallas' existing lease agreements", and this was agreed to by both the City of Dallas and Southwest Airlines 12 years ago.

The City of Dallas clearly has authority under the 5-party agreement and the WARA to require Southwest Airlines to share its gates with other airlines if necessary, and this authority even applies to the 16 preferential use gates that WN directly leases from the City of Dallas. The City of Dallas can require Southwest Airlines to share more than just Gate 15 at DAL with Delta Air Lines if necessary, and the installation of CUPPS equipment at some of the gates at DAL allow the City of Dallas to send DL flights to other gates normally only used by WN in the event that Gate 15 is already in use.

freakyrat wrote:

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

Not trying to single you out here, but can we please post a short summary of the posted article in addition to the link, so that we have an idea of what's going on without opening the link? I'm pretty sure that's a forum rule.

In any case, does DAL not have remote stands/ buses that can be used for cases like this? I feel like that would have helped the passengers get off the plane at least.

NeBaNi wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

Not trying to single you out here, but can we please post a short summary of the posted article in addition to the link, so that we have an idea of what's going on without opening the link? I'm pretty sure that's a forum rule.

In any case, does DAL not have remote stands/ buses that can be used for cases like this? I feel like that would have helped the passengers get off the plane at least.

The 5-party agreement normally does not allow the use of hardstands at DAL, but the 5-party agreement does allow the use of hardstands in the case of irregular operations such as flights that were originally scheduled for one of the twenty available gates and cannot be accommodated thereon due to weather, maintenance, or unforeseen emergencies.

NeBaNi wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

Not trying to single you out here, but can we please post a short summary of the posted article in addition to the link, so that we have an idea of what's going on without opening the link? I'm pretty sure that's a forum rule.

In any case, does DAL not have remote stands/ buses that can be used for cases like this? I feel like that would have helped the passengers get off the plane at least.

I apologize I didnt know about posting a short summary. Now to your second statement. The partial repeal of the Wright Amendment and the building of the 20 gate terminal at DAL prohibited the use of hardstands at the airport as that soehow would exceed the 20 gate max in the agreement.

jplatts wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

The issue with DL having to wait on the tarmac at DAL until Gate 15 is available could be resolved by installing common use terminal equipment (CUTE) at DAL that would allow DL to use another gate at DAL if Gate 15 is in use by another airline. CUTE is already in use at some other U.S. airports that are currently served by WN, including ATL, BOS, DEN, RSW, LAS, LAX, MSP, EWR, MCO, PHX, PIT, RDU, SMF, SFO, SJC, and IAD.

DL regularly uses gate 20 when gate 15 is occupied by WN. In fact, DL used that gate yesterday. It even has the proper stop markings painted on the ground for their aircraft.

jplatts wrote:

Subsection (b) of Section 3 of Article I of the 5-party agreement says that "If the existing carriers are not able or are not willing to accommodate the new entrant service, then the City of Dallas agrees to require the sharing of preferential lease gates, pursuant to Dallas' existing lease agreements", and this was agreed to by both the City of Dallas and Southwest Airlines 12 years ago.

The City of Dallas clearly has authority under the 5-party agreement and the WARA to require Southwest Airlines to share its gates with other airlines if necessary, and this authority even applies to the 16 preferential use gates that WN directly leases from the City of Dallas. The City of Dallas can require Southwest Airlines to share more than just Gate 15 at DAL with Delta Air Lines if necessary, and the installation of CUPPS equipment at some of the gates at DAL allow the City of Dallas to send DL flights to other gates normally only used by WN in the event that Gate 15 is already in use.

Well, somebody needs to read this section to the city of Dallas because the current federal case was bought by them to interpret the rules / regs / laws that they created and now do not have a clue how to use to fix the problem that they created.
However, in the land of dreaming I wish they get what they want, WN and others closing down all commercial aviation at Love...

bob75013 wrote:

As I and others have said in this and other DAL threads, if WN can't expand at DAL, WN will simply wait til 2024 and expand at other Metroplex airports.

par13del wrote:

Time will tell on the landscape after 2024, AA will offer one stop shopping at DFW, WN will have at least 2 gateways in the metroplex, I will assume that DAL will continue to be a major administrative / maintenance hub, but the gate cap and lack of international flights means that DAL is crippled.

I agree that WN will serve more than just DAL in the Metroplex in 2025, but WN will continue to serve DAL after it starts service out of a 2nd airport in the DFW Metroplex.

My predictions for WN service out of the DFW Metroplex by 2026:

• WN serving DAL and at least a 2nd airport in the DFW Metroplex
• WN having daily nonstop service to at least 61 destinations from the DFW Metroplex
• WN having daily nonstop service from the DFW Metroplex to all 50 of the destinations that currently have daily nonstop service out of DAL
• WN adding daily nonstop service to at least BUF, CVG, CLE, CRP, HRL, JAX, SDF, MKE, MSP, EWR, and TUS from one of the airports in the DFW Metroplex

topbanana wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

I have to be honest.... I can't believe that this is even worthy of a news report. A flight was on the ground 20 minutes early and then had to wait 40 additional minutes for the gate to open up?

The pilot told the passengers that THAT was the worst service he had ever seen? If they hadn't been early, they would have waiting a whopping 40 minutes for a gate and THAT'S he worst service he has ever seen?

Absolutely amazed that this is newsworthy.

Agreed. This wouldn't be an issue if not for the fact that DL insists on trying to serve an airport they have only secondary access to. To avoid further customer service failures, they'd be best served by sending those flights to DFW until their legal case for DAL is resolved.

EA CO AS wrote:

topbanana wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

I have to be honest.... I can't believe that this is even worthy of a news report. A flight was on the ground 20 minutes early and then had to wait 40 additional minutes for the gate to open up?

The pilot told the passengers that THAT was the worst service he had ever seen? If they hadn't been early, they would have waiting a whopping 40 minutes for a gate and THAT'S he worst service he has ever seen?

Absolutely amazed that this is newsworthy.

Agreed. This wouldn't be an issue if not for the fact that DL insists on trying to serve an airport they have only secondary access to. To avoid further customer service failures, they'd be best served by sending those flights to DFW until their legal case for DAL is resolved.

I agree with your point. Many of the passengers flying to and from DAL on DL's DAL-ATL nonstops would be willing to fly into DFW instead of DAL on DL if DL did discontinue DAL-ATL nonstop service. DL also already has 17 daily nonstops in each direction between DFW and ATL, and DL can easily absorb the extra demand on DFW-ATL nonstop service by either flying bigger planes on DFW-ATL nonstops or by adding extra DFW-ATL nonstops if DL discontinues DFW-ATL nonstop service.

Why does DL insist on being accommodated at DAL if many of these same passengers would be willing to fly out of DFW instead of DAL if DL didn't serve DAL?

The DOJ would likely approve G4's sublease of the AA gates at DAL since G4 does not currently serve DFW, since G4 is a ULCC, and since some of the destinations that G4 would be serving nonstop from DAL are not served by WN. The accommodation of G4 is easier than that of DL out of DAL since G4 can schedule around other carriers at DAL, since G4 is primarily targeting point-to-point leisure travel, since G4 currently does not sell any connecting itineraries, and since G4 does not have to worry about missed connections like WN, DL, and AS do in the event of delayed flights. G4 could also use one or two of the gates at DAL that are currently subleased to WN from UA if DL discontinues DAL-ATL nonstop service.

freakyrat wrote:

Maybe the Justice Dept. or the Citry of Dallas should have stepped in and told United that they could sublease those two gates to anybody but WN.

Yep just like they make airlines give back slots/ gates when they merge and get to big they should make WN give those back and should of not be able to recieve them unless nobody wanted them, and should be up for review every two to three years. OR run DAL like SNA does to make sure the best options are happening rather then airlines controlling the situation. They all (airlines) have shown they will not always have the public in best interest.

EA CO AS wrote:

topbanana wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

I have to be honest.... I can't believe that this is even worthy of a news report. A flight was on the ground 20 minutes early and then had to wait 40 additional minutes for the gate to open up?

The pilot told the passengers that THAT was the worst service he had ever seen? If they hadn't been early, they would have waiting a whopping 40 minutes for a gate and THAT'S he worst service he has ever seen?

Absolutely amazed that this is newsworthy.

Agreed. This wouldn't be an issue if not for the fact that DL insists on trying to serve an airport they have only secondary access to. To avoid further customer service failures, they'd be best served by sending those flights to DFW until their legal case for DAL is resolved.

Yea they need there butt there if there not the perception and lack of current flights, plus building of clientele for DAL would all be negatives. Better to squat there. That last article was silly at best.

7H4 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Latest in this saga between Delta and Southwest.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/passe ... -564829793

The issue with DL having to wait on the tarmac at DAL until Gate 15 is available could be resolved by installing common use terminal equipment (CUTE) at DAL that would allow DL to use another gate at DAL if Gate 15 is in use by another airline. CUTE is already in use at some other U.S. airports that are currently served by WN, including ATL, BOS, DEN, RSW, LAS, LAX, MSP, EWR, MCO, PHX, PIT, RDU, SMF, SFO, SJC, and IAD.

DL regularly uses gate 20 when gate 15 is occupied by WN. In fact, DL used that gate yesterday. It even has the proper stop markings painted on the ground for their aircraft.

Delta also uses portable computer equipment for gate check in so they can actually use any gate that is open by wheeling their desk down to that gate.

grbauc wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Maybe the Justice Dept. or the Citry of Dallas should have stepped in and told United that they could sublease those two gates to anybody but WN.

Yep just like they make airlines give back slots/ gates when they merge and get to big they should make WN give those back and should of not be able to recieve them unless nobody wanted them, and should be up for review every two to three years. OR run DAL like SNA does to make sure the best options are happening rather then airlines controlling the situation. They all (airlines) have shown they will not always have the public in best interest.

One issue is that WN really needs most of its existing nonstop routes out of DAL in order to remain competitive in the DAL/DFW market. DL and AS both serve both DFW and DAL, whereas WN currently only serves DAL in the DFW Metroplex. WN also has nonstop service from DAL to destinations that competitors are unwilling to serve nonstop from DAL. On top of all of that, there are some passengers making connections that can't be easily made elsewhere in the WN network through DAL on WN, including connections to and from AMA, BHM, LIT, and LBB.

There are also many markets that currently only have nonstop service from the DFW Metroplex on only AA and WN, including Albuquerque, Amarillo, Austin, Birmingham, Charlotte, Columbus (OH), El Paso, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Little Rock, Memphis, Midland/Odessa, Nashville, Oklahoma City, Omaha, Panama City Beach, Pensacola, Raleigh/Durham, Sacramento, St. Louis, San Antonio, and Tulsa. WN has an established customer base in most of these markets, and WN is actually providing competition that is really needed in the DFW Metroplex by serving these destinations nonstop from DAL.

There is also a lot of demand for Southwest Airlines service in the DFW Metroplex, and over 14 million passengers travel to, from, or through DAL on WN every year.

One possible solution to the mess at DAL would be to build a new terminal at DFW and to accommodate WN at DFW. I have mentioned that a new terminal at DFW where the Express North parking lot is currently located would allow WN to do quick turnarounds at DFW, plus a new terminal in this location would be easily accessible from SH 121, SH 114, and I-635.

jplatts wrote:

bob75013 wrote:

As I and others have said in this and other DAL threads, if WN can't expand at DAL, WN will simply wait til 2024 and expand at other Metroplex airports.

par13del wrote:

Time will tell on the landscape after 2024, AA will offer one stop shopping at DFW, WN will have at least 2 gateways in the metroplex, I will assume that DAL will continue to be a major administrative / maintenance hub, but the gate cap and lack of international flights means that DAL is crippled.

I agree that WN will serve more than just DAL in the Metroplex in 2025, but WN will continue to serve DAL after it starts service out of a 2nd airport in the DFW Metroplex.

My predictions for WN service out of the DFW Metroplex by 2026:

• WN serving DAL and at least a 2nd airport in the DFW Metroplex
• WN having daily nonstop service to at least 61 destinations from the DFW Metroplex
• WN having daily nonstop service from the DFW Metroplex to all 50 of the destinations that currently have daily nonstop service out of DAL
• WN adding daily nonstop service to at least BUF, CVG, CLE, CRP, HRL, JAX, SDF, MKE, MSP, EWR, and TUS from one of the airports in the DFW Metroplex

They could have flown CRP and HRL for years, and they didn't. They tried various ways, weekend flights, etc. but they never stuck. I would not hold my breath on those.

With passenger demand increasing I believe that WN will eventually operate out of more than one airport in the Metroplex and others may also. I'm surprised that a company like Propeller Investments doesn't try to build a 4 or 5 gate terminal at Collin County Airport or Fort Worth Alliance for a carrier like Allegiant.

jplatts wrote:

grbauc wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Maybe the Justice Dept. or the Citry of Dallas should have stepped in and told United that they could sublease those two gates to anybody but WN.

Yep just like they make airlines give back slots/ gates when they merge and get to big they should make WN give those back and should of not be able to recieve them unless nobody wanted them, and should be up for review every two to three years. OR run DAL like SNA does to make sure the best options are happening rather then airlines controlling the situation. They all (airlines) have shown they will not always have the public in best interest.

One issue is that WN really needs most of its existing nonstop routes out of DAL in order to remain competitive in the DAL/DFW market. DL and AS both serve both DFW and DAL, whereas WN currently only serves DAL in the DFW Metroplex. WN also has nonstop service from DAL to destinations that competitors are unwilling to serve nonstop from DAL. On top of all of that, there are some passengers making connections that can't be easily made elsewhere in the WN network through DAL on WN, including connections to and from AMA, BHM, LIT, and LBB.

There are also many markets that currently only have nonstop service from the DFW Metroplex on only AA and WN, including Albuquerque, Amarillo, Austin, Birmingham, Charlotte, Columbus (OH), El Paso, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Little Rock, Memphis, Midland/Odessa, Nashville, Oklahoma City, Omaha, Panama City Beach, Pensacola, Raleigh/Durham, Sacramento, St. Louis, San Antonio, and Tulsa. WN has an established customer base in

most of these markets, and WN is actually providing competition that is really needed in the DFW Metroplex by serving these destinations nonstop from DAL.

There is also a lot of demand for Southwest Airlines service in the DFW Metroplex, and over 14 million passengers travel to, from, or through DAL on WN every year.

One possible solution to the mess at DAL would be to build a new terminal at DFW and to accommodate WN at DFW. I have mentioned that a new terminal at DFW where the Express North parking lot is currently located would allow WN to do quick turnarounds at DFW, plus a new terminal in this location would be easily accessible from SH 121, SH 114, and I-635.

Yeah things have just changed since this began years ago, at this point in time I think WN should be at another airport or DFW.

I really get the whole protecting DFW when you build a whole big airport and not under cutting it years ago. I think they should’ve close that airport down DAL years ago, but did it hence the thing we have now. Southwest doesn’t need the protections like they needed before when they were smaller younger airline, was there a reason they can’t also run at DFW now?

Is it in the public interest to let Southwest airlines control all gates at Dallas love at this point in time?

grbauc wrote:

jplatts wrote:

grbauc wrote:

Yep just like they make airlines give back slots/ gates when they merge and get to big they should make WN give those back and should of not be able to recieve them unless nobody wanted them, and should be up for review every two to three years. OR run DAL like SNA does to make sure the best options are happening rather then airlines controlling the situation. They all (airlines) have shown they will not always have the public in best interest.

One issue is that WN really needs most of its existing nonstop routes out of DAL in order to remain competitive in the DAL/DFW market. DL and AS both serve both DFW and DAL, whereas WN currently only serves DAL in the DFW Metroplex. WN also has nonstop service from DAL to destinations that competitors are unwilling to serve nonstop from DAL. On top of all of that, there are some passengers making connections that can't be easily made elsewhere in the WN network through DAL on WN, including connections to and from AMA, BHM, LIT, and LBB.

There are also many markets that currently only have nonstop service from the DFW Metroplex on only AA and WN, including Albuquerque, Amarillo, Austin, Birmingham, Charlotte, Columbus (OH), El Paso, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Little Rock, Memphis, Midland/Odessa, Nashville, Oklahoma City, Omaha, Panama City Beach, Pensacola, Raleigh/Durham, Sacramento, St. Louis, San Antonio, and Tulsa. WN has an established customer base in

most of these markets, and WN is actually providing competition that is really needed in the DFW Metroplex by serving these destinations nonstop from DAL.

There is also a lot of demand for Southwest Airlines service in the DFW Metroplex, and over 14 million passengers travel to, from, or through DAL on WN every year.

One possible solution to the mess at DAL would be to build a new terminal at DFW and to accommodate WN at DFW. I have mentioned that a new terminal at DFW where the Express North parking lot is currently located would allow WN to do quick turnarounds at DFW, plus a new terminal in this location would be easily accessible from SH 121, SH 114, and I-635.

Yeah things have just changed since this began years ago, at this point in time I think WN should be at another airport or DFW.

I really get the whole protecting DFW when you build a whole big airport and not under cutting it years ago. I think they should’ve close that airport down DAL years ago, but did it hence the thing we have now. Southwest doesn’t need the protections like they needed before when they were smaller younger airline, was there a reason they can’t also run at DFW now?

Is it in the public interest to let Southwest airlines control all gates at Dallas love at this point in time?

*There was nothing in the Wright Amendment to protect Southwest Airlines.* Any airline was able to serve DAL under the same restrictions (of the Wright Amendment- have you read it?)- to fly within the state of TX and not sell connecting itineraries (which was later loosened up to allow connecting itineraries and nonstops to neighboring states). Southwest was the only airline that provided consistent service under these restrictions without further access to the Dallas market unless they flew out of DFW. When the new terminal was built, Delta and any other airline had the ability to fight (and pay for consequent legal fees) for a full repeal of the amendment but did not do so. It was then agreed that 16 gates would be allocated to WN, 2 to AA, and 2 to UA. UA and AA eventually didn’t see real value in maintaining a presence at DAL and now you have the issues that we have. There are 4 gates at DAL that do not belong to WN. What UA and AA decide to do with them (or who to lease them to) so far is totally within their legal rights to decide. Delta knew when the new terminal was built that they were temporarily leasing a gate from United, not DAL. When a tenant’s lease expires it’s up to the owner to decide whom they wish to lease to next.

grbauc wrote:

Better to squat there.

Not for their customers, it’s not. It’s a service failure waiting to happen with each flight.

KMCOFlyer wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

EvanWSFO wrote:

Enjoy the photoshopped images because this will never, ever happen.

First the city of Dallas wouldn't allow that many gates. There's no way DFW and the city of Fort Worth would agree to it, because the limitation on gates was agreed upon in order to eliminate the Wright Amendment. Last, DAL only has two runways. How would DAL be able to efficiently operate 50 more gates with two runways?

I agree that DAL will never get 50 more gates (this isn’t 1967) but SAN has about 50 Gates and operates with only one runway so I’m sure DAL would be fine if they ever had that many gates to operate. (but they won’t)

Doesn't all limitations regarding the Wright Agreement go away in 2025? Why not add more gates, FTW has nothing to do with it then.

grbauc wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Maybe the Justice Dept. or the Citry of Dallas should have stepped in and told United that they could sublease those two gates to anybody but WN.

Yep just like they make airlines give back slots/ gates when they merge and get to big they should make WN give those back and should of not be able to recieve them unless nobody wanted them, and should be up for review every two to three years. OR run DAL like SNA does to make sure the best options are happening rather then airlines controlling the situation. They all (airlines) have shown they will not always have the public in best interest.

This is where the mistake was made, and the big problems started, when UA and WN made a behind-closed-door deal to give WN control of UA's two gates, and for some reason the DOJ allowed it. It shouldn't have been allowed by anyone, Delta should have been granted access to at least one of the gates to allow them to continue operating without all of this nonsense in court. It shouldn't have had to go this far, but it did, and the City of Dallas needs to force someone to make room for Delta as long as Delta wants to fly to Love Field. Says so right in the 5 Party Agreement.

william wrote:

Doesn't all limitations regarding the Wright Agreement go away in 2025? Why not add more gates, FTW has nothing to do with it then.

There are still some restrictions imposed at DAL under the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 that will remain in effect past 2025, including the following:

• The 20-gate limit at DAL
• Prohibitions on nonstop international passenger flights out of DAL
• Prohibitions on international charter flights out of DAL
• Limits on charter flights out of DAL to domestic destinations outside of Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Kansas, Missouri, Mississippi, and Alabama

The requirement to accommodate new entrant carriers at DAL under the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 and the 5-party agreement would also still remain in effect past 2025.

Here are the restrictions under the 5-party agreement that expire in 2025:

• WN can start service out of other airports in the DFW Metroplex without having to give up gates at DAL
• AA can start service out of airports other than DAL and DFW in the DFW Metroplex without having to give up gates at DAL

evank516 wrote:

This is where the mistake was made, and the big problems started, when UA and WN made a behind-closed-door deal to give WN control of UA's two gates, and for some reason the DOJ allowed it. It shouldn't have been allowed by anyone, Delta should have been granted access to at least one of the gates to allow them to continue operating without all of this nonsense in court. It shouldn't have had to go this far, but it did, and the City of Dallas needs to force someone to make room for Delta as long as Delta wants to fly to Love Field. Says so right in the 5 Party Agreement.

The UA gate lease at DAL expires on September 30, 2028, and the gates at DAL that are currently subleased to WN from UA at DAL could be leased to DL in 10 years from now if UA does not reenter DAL prior to October 2028. WN will also probably be serving more than just DAL in the DFW Metroplex by that point.

The NHL's Dallas Stars and other NHL teams regularly fly International Sports Charters in and out of Dallas Love.