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Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:08 pm
by jplatts
There is an article titled "Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates" published this morning that mentions that the City of Dallas has a proposed solution to the gate situation at DAL, and that article can be found at https://www.dallasnews.com/business/southwest-airlines/2018/05/07/new-city-plan-aims-resolve-southwest-deltas-love-field-gate-battle.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:30 pm
by DL747400
The "solution" mentioned in the above linked article is no solution at all. No realistic solution should ever include as a potential outcome the possibility that the gate in question could be returned to WN, period.

WN should never be allowed to grow at DAL beyond their current gate footprint. The remaining gates should be unassigned common use gates available to anyone except WN. If no one else wants to use them, then WN may be granted temporary squatting rights with a requirement to vacate on 30-days notice if another carrier wants to use them.

Come on City of Dallas.......Show some fortitude and offer a REAL solution! Don't be bullied by WN and their backroom tactics.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:47 pm
by WaywardMemphian
The only solution is additional gates at Love and then a couple should be common use.

Someone is going to find gold at McKinney in the future with passenger air service.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:12 pm
by sccutler
DL747400 wrote:
No realistic solution should ever include as a potential outcome the possibility that the gate in question could be returned to WN, period.

WN should never be allowed to grow at DAL beyond their current gate footprint. The remaining gates should be unassigned common use gates available to anyone except WN. If no one else wants to use them, then WN may be granted temporary squatting rights with a requirement to vacate on 30-days notice if another carrier wants to use them.


Gosh. That sounds pretty harsh!

Why?

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:15 pm
by SumChristianus
Maybe DL/WN can split the AS/VX gates when they pull out (assuming they do) from DAL?
I know they've added West Coast capacity from DAL (AS) but pulling LGA/DCA makes it an endpoint only, and probably not sustainable (not that it ever was) in the long run.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:21 pm
by nagpaw
DL747400 wrote:
No realistic solution should ever include as a potential outcome the possibility that the gate in question could be returned to WN, period.

WN should never be allowed to grow at DAL beyond their current gate footprint.


Absolutely, and well said! And Delta should never be allowed a single new gate beyond their current footprint in Atlanta as well.

My point is that your opinion seems grounded solely in emotion, understandable based on your username. Can you back up your opinion with some insight? I honestly don’t know all the details of this disagreement, and would love to hear your opinion.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:24 pm
by enilria
SumChristianus wrote:
Maybe DL/WN can split the AS/VX gates when they pull out (assuming they do) from DAL?
I know they've added West Coast capacity from DAL (AS) but pulling LGA/DCA makes it an endpoint only, and probably not sustainable (not that it ever was) in the long run.

That smells like exactly what is happening. AS just filed their flight cut in DAL this week. Timing is an amazing coincidence, no?
DL747400 wrote:
No realistic solution should ever include as a potential outcome the possibility that the gate in question could be returned to WN, period.

I've worried from the git-go of the AS lease of DCA/LGA slots to WN indicated a backdoor deal for WN to get the AS gates in DAL, or at least a share of their use, or a way to kick DL off the common use gates which also gives WN more gates

Frankly, DOT/FAA should simply deny AIP funds to DAL if DAL will not accommodate airlines wanting to operate there. That would fix things very quickly.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:28 pm
by Cubsrule
nagpaw wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
No realistic solution should ever include as a potential outcome the possibility that the gate in question could be returned to WN, period.

WN should never be allowed to grow at DAL beyond their current gate footprint.


Absolutely, and well said! And Delta should never be allowed a single new gate beyond their current footprint in Atlanta as well.

My point is that your opinion seems grounded solely in emotion, understandable based on your username. Can you back up your opinion with some insight? I honestly don’t know all the details of this disagreement, and would love to hear your opinion.


I think it makes perfect sense as a second best option (hopefully we all agree that adding 10 or 12 gates would be the best option). Let WN use the gates unless a new entrant wants them, and have a provision allowing for quick access for any new entrant who wants the gates.

My only concern with that sort of plan would be carriers squatting to prevent WN expansion, but the record strongly suggests that that will not happen. UA could have squatted and didn't. DL runs a fulsome schedule. AS/VX seem willing to work with WN to utilize various assets fully. What's wrong with his proposal?

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:38 pm
by tphuang
I support any solution where wn doesn’t get use of those 2 gates. Dl seems like the best bet to get it to work. Since aa is not an option and ua is probably not interested. I don’t see any lcc that can profitably get fully utilize those 2 gates.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:41 pm
by nagpaw
Cubsrule,

There’s nothing wrong with his option, as near as I can tell, except for the potential squatting that you mentioned. But it’s difficult to listen to someone’s opinion when it is apparently dictated by emotion and anger. (That’s why I don’t watch the likes of Fox News or MSNBC anymore.)

Again, I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong. I’d just like to see the basis for the stated opinion, so that I might learn something.


(Edited because I apparently can’t spell. Sorry.)

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:03 pm
by hiflyeras
It made sense for AS to drop the LGA/DCA flights from DAL and it'll be interesting to see if they try to hang on to what gates they have there. They don't have a goal of being a national carrier that goes everywhere. Their focus is to be the go-to airline to take travelers on the west coast to points east and serving both DAL and DFW from their hubs are part of that strategy. Their intention is to serve the major destinations requested from people living in SEA, SFO, PDX, LAX along with measured, sensible growth out of SAN and SJC. They seem to be nearly there with the VX acquisition and are going to concentrate the next couple of years on maturing newly added markets out of CA hubs...maybe even more flights to DAL.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:38 pm
by lavalampluva
Didn't DAL used to have more gates, but then eliminated them, only to propose adding more gates? :confused:

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:51 pm
by bob75013
nagpaw wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
No realistic solution should ever include as a potential outcome the possibility that the gate in question could be returned to WN, period.

WN should never be allowed to grow at DAL beyond their current gate footprint.


Absolutely, and well said! And Delta should never be allowed a single new gate beyond their current footprint in Atlanta as well.

My point is that your opinion seems grounded solely in emotion, understandable based on your username. Can you back up your opinion with some insight? I honestly don’t know all the details of this disagreement, and would love to hear your opinion.


DL shouldn't be allowed t expand at ATL or DTW or SLC.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:52 pm
by Polot
lavalampluva wrote:
Didn't DAL used to have more gates, but then eliminated them, only to propose adding more gates? :confused:

Yes, but DAL is currently restricted by law to a max of 20 gates.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:05 pm
by RockIsland41
Looks like a half-baked "solution". Three years??? why bother w/the investment?

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:09 pm
by diverdave
bob75013 wrote:
DL shouldn't be allowed t expand at ATL or DTW or SLC.


Delta doesn't have 90% of the gates at any of those airports. WN has 90% of the gates at DAL.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:16 pm
by Boof02671
Remember AA owns the AS/VS gates.

And DAL is covered by a separate law and that prevents the FAA from withholding funds.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:26 pm
by ricport
What many on here seem to forget is that DAL is a unique animal, due to the Wright Amendment and subsequent legislation. The current DAL situation is the result of a nonstop series of stupidity. Wright was bad law and should have never been allowed to see the light of day. The DAL terminal should have been bulldozed the day DFW opened, and DAL should be a general aviation airport.

But, since neither of those happened, we’re left with WN being both victim and bully. Wright unfairly constrained WN (primarily) at DAL, but they have also gone above and beyond to maintain an ersatz monopoly there. Wright and all subsequent legislation needs to be eradicated immediately, once and for all. Barring that, if the Dallas powers that be had any backbone and weren’t in Gary’s pocket, they’d simply pass a law stating that no carrier can have more than 70% of traffic at DAL. That would shut the door once and for all on WN’s behavior and would allow competition to really have an opportunity to flourish. I wonder if NK or F9 made a real run at DAL if it might knock the almighty WN from their high horse?

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:34 pm
by Bobloblaw
Who will result in lower fares to MSP and DTW? DL or WN? Growing Delta at DAL wont lower fares, growing WN will.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:34 pm
by Polot
ricport wrote:
What many on here seem to forget is that DAL is a unique animal, due to the Wright Amendment and subsequent legislation. The current DAL situation is the result of a nonstop series of stupidity. Wright was bad law and should have never been allowed to see the light of day. The DAL terminal should have been bulldozed the day DFW opened, and DAL should be a general aviation airport.

But, since neither of those happened, we’re left with WN being both victim and bully. Wright unfairly constrained WN (primarily) at DAL, but they have also gone above and beyond to maintain an ersatz monopoly there. Wright and all subsequent legislation needs to be eradicated immediately, once and for all. Barring that, if the Dallas powers that be had any backbone and weren’t in Gary’s pocket, they’d simply pass a law stating that no carrier can have more than 70% of traffic at DAL. That would shut the door once and for all on WN’s behavior and would allow competition to really have an opportunity to flourish. I wonder if NK or F9 made a real run at DAL if it might knock the almighty WN from their high horse?

It’s impossible to have a law stating that a carrier can’t have more than 70% of the traffic at DAL (or any airport). What if the competition doesn’t come and/or doesn’t flourish? Should WN then be punished and kicked out of the airport because they are carrying all the traffic? Oh but then the next largest carrier would have 70% of the traffic...so kick them out too?

The real solution is simple and obvious. Just eliminate any and all restrictions from DAL. If airlines want to expand service then the airport can build more gates and all this nonsense can be avoided. The Dallas/Fort Worth area is large enough now to support 2 airports.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:54 pm
by ctrabs0114
ricport wrote:
What many on here seem to forget is that DAL is a unique animal, due to the Wright Amendment and subsequent legislation. The current DAL situation is the result of a nonstop series of stupidity. Wright was bad law and should have never been allowed to see the light of day. The DAL terminal should have been bulldozed the day DFW opened, and DAL should be a general aviation airport.

But, since neither of those happened, we’re left with WN being both victim and bully. Wright unfairly constrained WN (primarily) at DAL, but they have also gone above and beyond to maintain an ersatz monopoly there. Wright and all subsequent legislation needs to be eradicated immediately, once and for all. Barring that, if the Dallas powers that be had any backbone and weren’t in Gary’s pocket, they’d simply pass a law stating that no carrier can have more than 70% of traffic at DAL. That would shut the door once and for all on WN’s behavior and would allow competition to really have an opportunity to flourish. I wonder if NK or F9 made a real run at DAL if it might knock the almighty WN from their high horse?


But, you have DFW in the same catchment area, so it's not like WN is the only carrier flying into and out of the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:56 pm
by kalvado
ricport wrote:
What many on here seem to forget is that DAL is a unique animal, due to the Wright Amendment and subsequent legislation. The current DAL situation is the result of a nonstop series of stupidity. Wright was bad law and should have never been allowed to see the light of day. The DAL terminal should have been bulldozed the day DFW opened, and DAL should be a general aviation airport.

But, since neither of those happened, we’re left with WN being both victim and bully. Wright unfairly constrained WN (primarily) at DAL, but they have also gone above and beyond to maintain an ersatz monopoly there. Wright and all subsequent legislation needs to be eradicated immediately, once and for all. Barring that, if the Dallas powers that be had any backbone and weren’t in Gary’s pocket, they’d simply pass a law stating that no carrier can have more than 70% of traffic at DAL. That would shut the door once and for all on WN’s behavior and would allow competition to really have an opportunity to flourish. I wonder if NK or F9 made a real run at DAL if it might knock the almighty WN from their high horse?

I still wonder if you consider DAL and DFW the same market?
If yes, this is the same market - then 100% single operator at DAL is a non-issue, as DFW is just a few miles away.
If no, those are separate markets - then we need criminal investigation into conspiracy of limiting city of Dallas access to air service. And you may be somewhat guilty here due to talking about bulldozing the terminal.
No, you cannot have the cake and eat it too. This is a "yes" or "no" question.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:57 pm
by WN732
These laws that are stemming from an original set from 50 years ago need to be removed. There is no reason why DAL needs to be capped at 20 gates. Delta should be happy to be there at all since they were not part of the agreement between Dallas, Ft Worth, AA, and WN. And since WN has fought so hard for this airport, why shouldn't they have a majority share? This issue is ridiculous.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:01 pm
by AirFiero
hiflyeras wrote:
It made sense for AS to drop the LGA/DCA flights from DAL and it'll be interesting to see if they try to hang on to what gates they have there. They don't have a goal of being a national carrier that goes everywhere. Their focus is to be the go-to airline to take travelers on the west coast to points east and serving both DAL and DFW from their hubs are part of that strategy. Their intention is to serve the major destinations requested from people living in SEA, SFO, PDX, LAX along with measured, sensible growth out of SAN and SJC. They seem to be nearly there with the VX acquisition and are going to concentrate the next couple of years on maturing newly added markets out of CA hubs...maybe even more flights to DAL.


This.

Why is it that people here are saying DAL must be more than an “endpoint” for AS? Did they declare an intention to create a hub or focus city? Did they ever say it is critical to their airlines future plans? Do any of the other AS destinations east of the Rockies have the requirement to be more than an end point or should be abandoned?

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:05 pm
by indcwby
Novice question for you: Which city has a better handle of traffic for a dual airport city? Dallas (DAL/DFW) or Houston (HOU/IAH)?

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:11 pm
by EA CO AS
I support whatever results in DL not getting a gate at DAL. Ever. :)

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:16 pm
by 777Mech
nagpaw wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
No realistic solution should ever include as a potential outcome the possibility that the gate in question could be returned to WN, period.

WN should never be allowed to grow at DAL beyond their current gate footprint.


Absolutely, and well said! And Delta should never be allowed a single new gate beyond their current footprint in Atlanta as well.

My point is that your opinion seems grounded solely in emotion, understandable based on your username. Can you back up your opinion with some insight? I honestly don’t know all the details of this disagreement, and would love to hear your opinion.


Why? No airline is restricted in the use of the CUTE gates in ATL. Every airline has been accomodated to this date with adequate gates. They may not be in the same concourse, but they have been accomodated. That's would not be the case in DAL.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:26 pm
by ricport
Polot wrote:
ricport wrote:
What many on here seem to forget is that DAL is a unique animal, due to the Wright Amendment and subsequent legislation. The current DAL situation is the result of a nonstop series of stupidity. Wright was bad law and should have never been allowed to see the light of day. The DAL terminal should have been bulldozed the day DFW opened, and DAL should be a general aviation airport.

But, since neither of those happened, we’re left with WN being both victim and bully. Wright unfairly constrained WN (primarily) at DAL, but they have also gone above and beyond to maintain an ersatz monopoly there. Wright and all subsequent legislation needs to be eradicated immediately, once and for all. Barring that, if the Dallas powers that be had any backbone and weren’t in Gary’s pocket, they’d simply pass a law stating that no carrier can have more than 70% of traffic at DAL. That would shut the door once and for all on WN’s behavior and would allow competition to really have an opportunity to flourish. I wonder if NK or F9 made a real run at DAL if it might knock the almighty WN from their high horse?

It’s impossible to have a law stating that a carrier can’t have more than 70% of the traffic at DAL (or any airport). What if the competition doesn’t come and/or doesn’t flourish? Should WN then be punished and kicked out of the airport because they are carrying all the traffic? Oh but then the next largest carrier would have 70% of the traffic...so kick them out too?

The real solution is simple and obvious. Just eliminate any and all restrictions from DAL. If airlines want to expand service then the airport can build more gates and all this nonsense can be avoided. The Dallas/Fort Worth area is large enough now to support 2 airports.


Sure they can pass a law. If there's a law that caused KU to cease JFK-LHR service, they can pass one stating no carrier can have X% of traffic. And, if you read my entire post, you'd see that that's my first solution. If WN wants to have 50 gates, and as long as other carriers have access to DAL, I say let 'em. I'm just saying that in the current (ridiculous) wright-caused situation, if that's not possible, there needs to be some kind of real provision to ensure DAL is open to free and fair competition.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:29 pm
by flyingclrs727
indcwby wrote:
Novice question for you: Which city has a better handle of traffic for a dual airport city? Dallas (DAL/DFW) or Houston (HOU/IAH)?


IAH and HOU are on opposite sides of downtown Houston, so they are more complementary to each other than existential threats. Back in 1989 there was talk of building a new commercial airport west of Houston near Katy to handle the growth of Houston's population. There was lots of opposition from rice farmers about the the loss of prime rice farming land (impossible to replace). It was also pointed out that lots of migratory birds fly through the area twice a year. The proposal rather quietly died.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:36 pm
by ricport
kalvado wrote:
ricport wrote:
What many on here seem to forget is that DAL is a unique animal, due to the Wright Amendment and subsequent legislation. The current DAL situation is the result of a nonstop series of stupidity. Wright was bad law and should have never been allowed to see the light of day. The DAL terminal should have been bulldozed the day DFW opened, and DAL should be a general aviation airport.

But, since neither of those happened, we’re left with WN being both victim and bully. Wright unfairly constrained WN (primarily) at DAL, but they have also gone above and beyond to maintain an ersatz monopoly there. Wright and all subsequent legislation needs to be eradicated immediately, once and for all. Barring that, if the Dallas powers that be had any backbone and weren’t in Gary’s pocket, they’d simply pass a law stating that no carrier can have more than 70% of traffic at DAL. That would shut the door once and for all on WN’s behavior and would allow competition to really have an opportunity to flourish. I wonder if NK or F9 made a real run at DAL if it might knock the almighty WN from their high horse?

I still wonder if you consider DAL and DFW the same market?
If yes, this is the same market - then 100% single operator at DAL is a non-issue, as DFW is just a few miles away.
If no, those are separate markets - then we need criminal investigation into conspiracy of limiting city of Dallas access to air service. And you may be somewhat guilty here due to talking about bulldozing the terminal.
No, you cannot have the cake and eat it too. This is a "yes" or "no" question.


Ridiculous. first, had you read my entire post, you'd have seen I actually support first and foremost lifting Wright (and successors) to allow access to DAL to whoever wants it. I'm merely saying that if the pols don't have the backbone to do that, they should at least ensure all other carriers have fair access to DAL. WN doesn't own DAL. Thus, the city has an obligation to protect citizens against an unfair monopoly (i.e., antitrust).

If DAL & DFW are in the same market, why not just bulldoze DAL & mandate WN move to DFW (which has the space to accommodate/could be built on to accommodate WN? Daley did worse to Meigs Field... And if they're not, then why isn't WN's overwhelming presence at DAL a virtual monopoly?

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:50 pm
by ScottB
kalvado wrote:
I still wonder if you consider DAL and DFW the same market?
If yes, this is the same market - then 100% single operator at DAL is a non-issue, as DFW is just a few miles away.


I think that if we look at pricing data for non-stop markets from both airports, it would appear that the two are effectively a single market. Take DAL/DFW-MSY, for example (a market with dense service from both airports): WN's average fare of $146 for DAL-MSY is about 5% lower than the DFW-MSY market average of $154, and 11% lower than AA's average for DFW-MSY. WN's average fare of $151 for DAL-DEN is virtually identical to AA's $150 for DFW-DEN. WN's average fare for DAL-MDW is $159, 6% lower than the DFW-ORD market average and 15% lower than AA's average of $188 for DFW-ORD. Even to ATL, average fares are lower from DAL, even with more competitors (three vs. two) operating from DFW.

DL isn't even bringing in real fare competition as their DAL-ATL average fare is about 15% higher than WN's.

Polot wrote:
The real solution is simple and obvious. Just eliminate any and all restrictions from DAL. If airlines want to expand service then the airport can build more gates and all this nonsense can be avoided. The Dallas/Fort Worth area is large enough now to support 2 airports.


This is absolutely the solution if what we care about is free & open competition. It's ridiculous that DAL is the only airport in the U.S. with a federally-mandated cap on the number of gates which may exist -- and that cap is well below what the airfield can support, as well as being below the demand. WN isn't allowed to advocate for more gates than 20 as a condition of the Five-Party Agreement, but outside players like Delta (or Alaska, Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, etc.) absolutely should!

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:15 pm
by osupoke07
For a trip down memory lane, here is a presentation on the City of Dallas' website regarding the AA divestiture and Dallas' attempt to identify who Dallas should favor to win the AA gates.

The conclusion was that Southwest would provide the most benefit as they were proposing adding the most non-stop flights with the largest planes.
Granted, this was also before the sale of the United gates to Southwest, so at the time, Southwest "only" had 16 of the 20 gates.

http://dallascityhall.com/government/Co ... 042814.pdf

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:32 pm
by SPREE34
ricport wrote:
.............The current DAL situation is the result of a nonstop series of stupidity................


That right there says it all.

Looks like the stupidity will continue for the foreseeable future.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:44 pm
by 11725Flyer
EA CO AS wrote:
I support whatever results in DL not getting a gate at DAL. Ever. :)


I'm shocked. :)

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:48 pm
by INFINITI329
ricport wrote:
Sure they can pass a law. If there's a law that caused KU to cease JFK-LHR service


There was no law passed forcing KU to cease JFK-LHR route. The bowed to political pressure in the U.S.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:54 pm
by deltal1011man
nagpaw wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
No realistic solution should ever include as a potential outcome the possibility that the gate in question could be returned to WN, period.

WN should never be allowed to grow at DAL beyond their current gate footprint.


Absolutely, and well said! And Delta should never be allowed a single new gate beyond their current footprint in Atlanta as well.

My point is that your opinion seems grounded solely in emotion, understandable based on your username. Can you back up your opinion with some insight? I honestly don’t know all the details of this disagreement, and would love to hear your opinion.

So you are saying that Delta 90% or more of the gates in Atlanta and there is no possible way any airline can expand?


To make your argument more creditable, compare apples to apples.

EA CO AS wrote:
I support whatever results in DL not getting a gate at DAL. Ever. :)

I'm sure you do. Tried of getting beat up in Seattle and LA, don't want it coming to Dallas too.

Bobloblaw wrote:
Who will result in lower fares to MSP and DTW? DL or WN? Growing Delta at DAL wont lower fares, growing WN will.

Yes I also learned in high school economics that monopolies in the market place bring lower costs to the consumer

Seriously?


It's funny the same people saying stuff like the above were the ones screaming from to the roof tops to give Southwest all the slots they wanted at DCA/LGA during the Delta/US slot swap. Now the shoe is on the other foot and we like monopolies.

ScottB wrote:
kalvado wrote:
I still wonder if you consider DAL and DFW the same market?
If yes, this is the same market - then 100% single operator at DAL is a non-issue, as DFW is just a few miles away.


I think that if we look at pricing data for non-stop markets from both airports, it would appear that the two are effectively a single market. Take DAL/DFW-MSY, for example (a market with dense service from both airports): WN's average fare of $146 for DAL-MSY is about 5% lower than the DFW-MSY market average of $154, and 11% lower than AA's average for DFW-MSY. WN's average fare of $151 for DAL-DEN is virtually identical to AA's $150 for DFW-DEN. WN's average fare for DAL-MDW is $159, 6% lower than the DFW-ORD market average and 15% lower than AA's average of $188 for DFW-ORD. Even to ATL, average fares are lower from DAL, even with more competitors (three vs. two) operating from DFW.

DL isn't even bringing in real fare competition as their DAL-ATL average fare is about 15% higher than WN's.


Are you comparing just Y fares?

If not your data is painting an fake picture
With three classes of service Delta *should* have a higher average fare than Southwest.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:55 pm
by ADrum23
The never ending Love Field drama continues.........

It all boils down to this, one of the following needs to happen in order to resolve this issue once and for all.

1. Lift all the remaining restrictions at Love Field (including the ban on international flights) and allow the airlines to build as many gates as they are willing to pay for or is physically possible.

2. Close DAL to commercial traffic and force everyone to move to DFW, where they can build all the gates they want.

Since I have a better chance of winning the lottery than the latter happening, only the first one is the more realistic solution. Why exactly again do they continue to insist on having the Wright restrictions at Love?

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:59 pm
by Cubsrule
nagpaw wrote:
Cubsrule,

There’s nothing wrong with his option, as near as I can tell, except for the potential squatting that you mentioned. But it’s difficult to listen to someone’s opinion when it is apparently dictated by emotion and anger. (That’s why I don’t watch the likes of Fox News or MSNBC anymore.)

Again, I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong. I’d just like to see the basis for the stated opinion, so that I might learn something.


(Edited because I apparently can’t spell. Sorry.)


How about these bases:


1) Facilities access for new entrants is - and long has been - a basic tenet of US aviation policy.

2) When airport facilities are scarce, we generally resolve fights for those facilities in favor of the carrier who is smaller in a particular market (I'm thinking of slots and route authorities here because that's where it typically comes up).

3) These priorities conflict with WN's stated and demonstrated commitment to DAL.

4) Therefore, we should let WN use the gates unless someone else wants them and can utilize them well, and in that case we ought to give that carrier a shot.

To me (somewhat of a WN fanboy), this is an easy case.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:10 pm
by ScottB
deltal1011man wrote:
Are you comparing just Y fares?

If not your data is painting an fake picture
With three classes of service Delta *should* have a higher average fare than Southwest.


The fare comparison is in the aggregate, but it still doesn't change the fact that Delta isn't competing based on fares. They may be competing based on more differentiated product and may achieve better price discrimination in the market segments they target, but they're not in the DAL-ATL market to offer price competition.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:25 pm
by Bobloblaw
deltal1011man wrote:
nagpaw wrote:
DL747400 wrote:

I'm sure you do. Tried of getting beat up in Seattle and LA, don't want it coming to Dallas too.


Yes I also learned in high school economics that monopolies in the market place bring lower costs to the consumer

Seriously?




Yes, seriously. Who is going to lower fares to MSP and DTW, Delta or LUV. Your high economics class omitted the fact that a low cost monopolist is better than high cost competition. But if DL flies MSP/DTW-DAL and WN doesnt, well then you just have a high cost monopolist.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:54 am
by EA CO AS
deltal1011man wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I support whatever results in DL not getting a gate at DAL. Ever. :)

I'm sure you do. Tried of getting beat up in Seattle and LA, don't want it coming to Dallas too.


Whatever helps you sleep at night; AS hasn't lost a single point of market share to DL in SEA, and has obviously grown substantially at LAX with the VX acquisition. I'm just tired of seeing a corporate bully get their way.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 1:04 am
by DL747400
nagpaw wrote:
And Delta should never be allowed a single new gate beyond their current footprint in Atlanta as well. My point is that your opinion seems grounded solely in emotion, understandable based on your username. Can you back up your opinion with some insight? I honestly don’t know all the details of this disagreement, and would love to hear your opinion.


The last time I checked, ATL was not gate restricted. There are gates available to any airline which wants them and the existing ATL master plan continues to include various options for increasing the number of gates through at least 2030.

http://www.atl.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... preads.pdf

DAL, on the other hand, is artificially capped at 20 gates (at least until common sense prevails and the law is changed). While the number of flights is not limited at DAL (at least not to my knowledge), the number of gates is capped at 20. The number of flights which can be operated from 20 gates is finite, so this rule essentially imposes an artificial restriction on flight operations. With WN already controlling 18+ gates and AS shrinking their DAL operations, there is little or no meaningful opportunity for any other carrier to offer competitive service. This is the basis for my argument that WN should not be allowed to expand their gate footprint at DAL beyond what it is today.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 1:08 am
by capejet
The 2 airports are so close, why not just bulldoze everything in between the 2 airports, rename it Dallas Fort Worth Love International Airport. Build new terminals and runways. Then Texas will be able to get bragging rights back from Colorado about who has the biggest airport by land mass!

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 2:48 am
by IPFreely
EA CO AS wrote:
Whatever helps you sleep at night; AS hasn't lost a single point of market share to DL in SEA, and has obviously grown substantially at LAX with the VX acquisition. I'm just tired of seeing a corporate bully get their way.


Delta may act like a corporate bully but when do they ever get their way? From whining about the ME3 to collecting a $50,000,000 power outage reimbursement from Georgia Power, it seems like their bullying talk doesn't ever work. Perhaps a new strategy is needed.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 2:59 am
by LAXtoATL
EA CO AS wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I support whatever results in DL not getting a gate at DAL. Ever. :)

I'm sure you do. Tried of getting beat up in Seattle and LA, don't want it coming to Dallas too.


Whatever helps you sleep at night; AS hasn't lost a single point of market share to DL in SEA, and has obviously grown substantially at LAX with the VX acquisition. I'm just tired of seeing a corporate bully get their way.


I’ll admit I have no idea what the market share numbers, but considering AS had a virtual monopoly in SEA and DL has set up a very large hub operation from basically nothing in the last 10 years, Delta has to taken share from somebody and who else could it come from other than AS?

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 3:13 am
by freakyrat
Folks the Dallas Love terminal is constrained for space unless you actually want to close down Rwy 18/36 and expand the terminal west towards the runup ramp. To the east you have the new parking garage and the Southwest provisions building plus Gulfstream Aerospace. There is simply no room to expand beyond the 20 gates.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 3:16 am
by KMCOFlyer
freakyrat wrote:
Folks the Dallas Love terminal is constrained for space unless you actually want to close down Rwy 18/36 and expand the terminal west towards the runup ramp. To the east you have the new parking garage and the Southwest provisions building plus Gulfstream Aerospace. There is simply no room to expand beyond the 20 gates.


Runway 18/36 has been closed down for a few years now and is being turned into a taxiway. The current terminal could probably cram in two more gates (there is space on the end) without building any new concourse.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 3:43 am
by Tugger
LAXtoATL wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
I'm sure you do. Tried of getting beat up in Seattle and LA, don't want it coming to Dallas too.


Whatever helps you sleep at night; AS hasn't lost a single point of market share to DL in SEA, and has obviously grown substantially at LAX with the VX acquisition. I'm just tired of seeing a corporate bully get their way.


I’ll admit I have no idea what the market share numbers, but considering AS had a virtual monopoly in SEA and DL has set up a very large hub operation from basically nothing in the last 10 years, Delta has to taken share from somebody and who else could it come from other than AS?

Sorry, I know off topic but to address this issue, in truth Delta has made good gains and Alaska has lost some share:
Alaska Airlines lost ground to rival Delta Air Lines at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport in July, according to the airport's latest passenger traffic report.

About 4.7 million passengers traveled through Sea-Tac in July, a drop of just under 1 percent versus 2016, the airport data shows.

Atlanta-based Delta grew its total passenger traffic at Sea-Tac by 8.2 percent in July, an increase of 85,952 people from the same period last year.

Passenger traffic for Alaska Air Group Inc., the parent of Alaska Airlines and its regional carrier Horizon Air, fell 3.9 percent, a drop of 82,146 passengers. The airline's newly acquired Virgin America affiliate boosted its passenger tally slightly by 1,114, or 2.1 percent, the data shows.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... olume.html

Tugg

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:36 am
by Antarius
ADrum23 wrote:
The never ending Love Field drama continues.........

It all boils down to this, one of the following needs to happen in order to resolve this issue once and for all.

1. Lift all the remaining restrictions at Love Field (including the ban on international flights) and allow the airlines to build as many gates as they are willing to pay for or is physically possible.

2. Close DAL to commercial traffic and force everyone to move to DFW, where they can build all the gates they want.

Since I have a better chance of winning the lottery than the latter happening, only the first one is the more realistic solution. Why exactly again do they continue to insist on having the Wright restrictions at Love?


#1 highlights a unique tenet of US aviation. Why does an airline need to build gates?

If we get airlines out of the airport industry, then all of a sudden it's a much more level playing field. There's less sunk cost fallacy involved.

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 5:01 am
by Tugger
Antarius wrote:
#1 highlights a unique tenet of US aviation. Why does an airline need to build gates?

If we get airlines out of the airport industry, then all of a sudden it's a much more level playing field. There's less sunk cost fallacy involved.

FIrst I will point out that a lot of airports do build their own expansions, renewals in hopes of attracting now operators and business,

But for those airports that serve desired locations, it is so that way airlines get to build gates if they wants to compete better and that airline bears the burden to succeed or lose that investment. Otherwise you have public entities trying to look good and "growing" at public cost and loss.

I actually like the, what you say is a unique tenet, concept that both the airport have skin in the game, the airline wants to recoup their investment and the airport doesn't want dead or under performing space.

Its not perfect put it works pretty well.

Tugg