michman
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 1:51 am

Bobloblaw wrote:

I dont think you really understand monopolies. One carrier will fly MSP-DAL as there arent enough gates for both DL and WN to do it. So who would you prefer fly MSP-DAL??? DL or WN? Delta adding flights at DAL wont lower fares on ONE SINGLE ROUTE period. It is best that WN grow and add DTW and MSP from DAL, not Delta.


WN already flies DAL-DTW. Not everyone is looking for the absolute cheapest fare. I like WN, but I prefer a full-service airline with an international network and am willing to pay extra for that. I don't think there's anything wrong with having more choices than just LCC's and ULCC's. Markets should be open to all airline models and not wedded to a single one with the government getting to pick the winners and losers simply based on the cheapest fares.
 
KMCOFlyer
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 2:53 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
I dont think you really understand monopolies. One carrier will fly MSP-DAL as there arent enough gates for both DL and WN to do it. So who would you prefer fly MSP-DAL??? DL or WN? Delta adding flights at DAL wont lower fares on ONE SINGLE ROUTE period. It is best that WN grow and add DTW and MSP from DAL, not Delta.


DL may not lower fares at DAL but their fares are already pretty competitive over at DFW. Doing a search on fares in June from DFW-MSP was $219 RT and $199 RT on DFW-DTW. Meanwhile, WN was charging ~$260 RT on it's DAL-DTW non-stop and DAL-MSP (1-stop) on the same days. Another advantage DL has over WN is it can connect flyers to more destinations from their MSP and DTW hubs than WN can.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 7:18 am

KMCOFlyer wrote:
DL may not lower fares at DAL but their fares are already pretty competitive over at DFW. Doing a search on fares in June from DFW-MSP was $219 RT and $199 RT on DFW-DTW. Meanwhile, WN was charging ~$260 RT on it's DAL-DTW non-stop and DAL-MSP (1-stop) on the same days. Another advantage DL has over WN is it can connect flyers to more destinations from their MSP and DTW hubs than WN can.


He has a valid point; you’re comparing DL’s lowest, advance purchase fares requiring a Saturday night stay (a segment WN doesn’t compete in). If you remove the Saturday night requirement, DL’s fares generally trend much higher than WN’s — except on flights with similar departure times as WN. I’m betting DL’s not in the drivers seat on that one.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
tphuang
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 11:31 am

KMCOFlyer wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
I dont think you really understand monopolies. One carrier will fly MSP-DAL as there arent enough gates for both DL and WN to do it. So who would you prefer fly MSP-DAL??? DL or WN? Delta adding flights at DAL wont lower fares on ONE SINGLE ROUTE period. It is best that WN grow and add DTW and MSP from DAL, not Delta.


DL may not lower fares at DAL but their fares are already pretty competitive over at DFW. Doing a search on fares in June from DFW-MSP was $219 RT and $199 RT on DFW-DTW. Meanwhile, WN was charging ~$260 RT on it's DAL-DTW non-stop and DAL-MSP (1-stop) on the same days. Another advantage DL has over WN is it can connect flyers to more destinations from their MSP and DTW hubs than WN can.

Who need those connections if they can just drive a little further and fly out of dfw and go anywhere in the world non stop?
 
KMCOFlyer
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 5:04 pm

compensateme wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
DL may not lower fares at DAL but their fares are already pretty competitive over at DFW. Doing a search on fares in June from DFW-MSP was $219 RT and $199 RT on DFW-DTW. Meanwhile, WN was charging ~$260 RT on it's DAL-DTW non-stop and DAL-MSP (1-stop) on the same days. Another advantage DL has over WN is it can connect flyers to more destinations from their MSP and DTW hubs than WN can.


He has a valid point; you’re comparing DL’s lowest, advance purchase fares requiring a Saturday night stay (a segment WN doesn’t compete in). If you remove the Saturday night requirement, DL’s fares generally trend much higher than WN’s — except on flights with similar departure times as WN. I’m betting DL’s not in the drivers seat on that one.


The example I found actually was a Saturday night stay but I redid my search for the same week making it a Monday-Thursday instead and the fares were the exact same on DL. DL actually has a lot of competition over at DFW with SY, AA, and NK flying DFW-MSP non-stop from DFW in addition to WNs connecting flight options over at DAL. DFW-DTW has a little less competition with only AA and NK but WN flies DAL-DTW so DL has competition to keep their fares competitive. As I said above, it’s better for DL to offer these flights as they offer much more out of DTW/MSP than WN does.
 
KMCOFlyer
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 5:11 pm

tphuang wrote:
Who need those connections if they can just drive a little further and fly out of dfw and go anywhere in the world non stop?


Same reason DL flies out of DAL and DFW in the first place. DAL is so much more convenient for those who live near it or are visiting the downtown Dallas area. WN doesn’t fly everywhere and they are not a hub and spoke airline. Without DL at DAL, pax wouldn’t be able to fly out of DAL to places like GSO/SRQ/VPS/TYS/LEX, etc. Sure, they could drive over to DFW but obviously some pax would prefer not to do that and DL sees this.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 6:19 pm

Would anyone like to discuss the topic "Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates" of this thread?

If not, I suggest that the moderators lock it up and shut it down.
 
aaway
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 6:50 pm

bob75013 wrote:
aaway wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Airlines other than WN, AA, and UA. including AS and DL, are entitled access to the 20 existing gates at DAL under the new entrant carrier provisions of the 5-party agreement, the new entrant carrier provisions of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, and the gate sharing provisions of the gate leases at DAL.


The crux of the matter is whether, or not, WARA usurps the federal rules of non-discriminatory access to federally obligated airports.


EVERY piece of federal legislation trumps (sorry, no pun intended) EVERY federal rule that might be in conflict with that legislation. Thus it is not a question of whether WARA usurps anything, but a fact that WARA is superior to any federal rule that might conflict with it.


Can't speak for all matters pertaining to federal legislation, but in this case, the FAA is arguing otherwise. Hence, just one of the tangents of this case that will have to be adjudicated.

DAL could be repositioned as a multi-carrier airport that is served by WN, AA, DL, UA, and AS if the 5 parties to the 5-party agreement could agree in writing to amend the 5 party agreement to allow the expansion of DAL beyond the existing 20 gates, if Congress amends the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 to allow the expansion of DAL beyond the current 20-gate limit, and if additional gates are constructed at DAL subsequent to the amendments to the 5-party agreement and WARA.

I view gate expansion as the most vexing potential remedy. There are various scenarios for asks here that could potentially go beyond just an examination of traffic growth at Love since removal of Wright restrictions. Regardless of perspective here (con/pro), there is a physical limitation to the number of gates that could be reestablished at Love.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 7:12 pm

KMCOFlyer wrote:
compensateme wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
DL may not lower fares at DAL but their fares are already pretty competitive over at DFW. Doing a search on fares in June from DFW-MSP was $219 RT and $199 RT on DFW-DTW. Meanwhile, WN was charging ~$260 RT on it's DAL-DTW non-stop and DAL-MSP (1-stop) on the same days. Another advantage DL has over WN is it can connect flyers to more destinations from their MSP and DTW hubs than WN can.


He has a valid point; you’re comparing DL’s lowest, advance purchase fares requiring a Saturday night stay (a segment WN doesn’t compete in). If you remove the Saturday night requirement, DL’s fares generally trend much higher than WN’s — except on flights with similar departure times as WN. I’m betting DL’s not in the drivers seat on that one.


The example I found actually was a Saturday night stay but I redid my search for the same week making it a Monday-Thursday instead and the fares were the exact same on DL. DL actually has a lot of competition over at DFW with SY, AA, and NK flying DFW-MSP non-stop from DFW in addition to WNs connecting flight options over at DAL. DFW-DTW has a little less competition with only AA and NK but WN flies DAL-DTW so DL has competition to keep their fares competitive. As I said above, it’s better for DL to offer these flights as they offer much more out of DTW/MSP than WN does.


DL does not serve AMA, LBB, and MAF, and DL does not codeshare with any carriers that serve these 3 destinations. WN, on the other hand, can connect passengers to AMA, LBB, and MAF from ATL, BOS, DTW, LGA, and RDU through DAL. WN also can connect passengers to SEA and LAX from AMA, LBB, and MAF through LAS, and WN can also connect passengers to MAF, CRP, and HRL from ATL, BOS, LGA, and RDU through HOU.

WN can provide real competition on connections to MSP from AMA, LBB, and MAF (and vice versa) if it added daily nonstop service to MSP from DAL, where AA through DFW, UA through IAH, and UA through DEN are currently the only options for these connections. DL would not be able to provide additional competition over AA on connections to AMA, LBB, and MAF from MSP (and vice versa) if it added DAL-MSP nonstop service.

DL would be able to connect passengers to destinations in North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Canada, and Europe through MSP from DAL if it added MSP-DAL nonstop service, but DL can already connect passengers to these same destinations through MSP from DFW. AA also already has nonstop service to many of these same destinations from its DFW or ORD hubs.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 7:25 pm

aaway wrote:
Regardless of perspective here (con/pro), there is a physical limitation to the number of gates that could be reestablished at Love.


Actually, that is not the case. There would be room for perhaps 5 gates next to the new parking garage near the footprint of the old CO and AA gates. Likewise, there's room for perhaps 3-5 gates near where gates 41-43 were located in the old AP. Finally, since the AP plan is to centrally locate all rental car operations off field, there's all that room currently occupied be the rent car companies -- room for perhaps 10 or more gates. Then there's the entire east side of the AP .... If ORD can build western gateway, I bet DAL can build an eastern gateway. As a matter of fact, Legend already did that.
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 7:57 pm

phluser wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
jplatts wrote:

DAL could be repositioned as a multi-carrier airport that is served by WN, AA, DL, UA, and AS if the 5 parties to the 5-party agreement could agree in writing to amend the 5 party agreement to allow the expansion of DAL beyond the existing 20 gates, if Congress amends the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 to allow the expansion of DAL beyond the current 20-gate limit, and if additional gates are constructed at DAL subsequent to the amendments to the 5-party agreement and WARA.


IMO that'll never happen for UA and AA. Both want their flights concentrated at cities' main airports. Both serve ORD and avoid MDW. UA serves IAH but avoids HOU. UA tried DAl and gave up. AA got beat up by WN pretty badly at DAL.

I could see F9 or B6 or NK trying DAL though.


AA does serve both IAH and HOU, and SFO and OAK, so in these two cases, it's not concentrated at the main airport for those markets. PHX-OAK was inherited from US, but AA added DFW-OAK. Of course, UA avoids HOU and MDW because it has it's hub in IAH and ORD. It's investment is at those hubs - it wants it's passengers to experience the lounges and everything it has to offer. Likewise, if AA couldn't squat gates, then maybe it wouldn't want to be in DAL. If Detroit, Atlanta, and Minneapolis had secondary airports nearby, it's really unknown if DL would serve the two airports - fortunately, it doesn't have those situations at it's own hubs.

If UA wasn't permitted to profit off of leasing it's DAL gates to WN, I'd think it actually be interested in servicing DAL, and operate DAL-EWR/SFO/ORD. At that point, why give up say the DAL-SFO business to AS and WN. But that's just my guess.


AA originally planned on bringing back service to DAL after the repeal of the Wright Amendment, but these plans were changed when AA was required by the US Department of Justice and the US District Court for the District of Columbia to give up the 2 gates that it leased at DAL to another carrier in order to get the AA-US merger approved.

In addition to HOU and OAK, AA does serve some other secondary airports in major metropolitan areas, including BUR, ISP, LGB, SWF, ONT, SNA, STS, and HPN. AA would also have likely resumed service out of DAL after the repeal of the Wright Amendment if the DOJ and the US District Court for the District of Columbia didn't require AA to give up its 2 gates at DAL.

AA can regain access to the 2 gates at DAL on April 26, 2024 (which is less than 6 years away), and AA can resume service out of DAL on April 26, 2024 if there is enough room to do so.
 
aaway
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 9:38 pm

bob75013 wrote:
aaway wrote:
Regardless of perspective here (con/pro), there is a physical limitation to the number of gates that could be reestablished at Love.


Actually, that is not the case. There would be room for perhaps 5 gates next to the new parking garage near the footprint of the old CO and AA gates. Likewise, there's room for perhaps 3-5 gates near where gates 41-43 were located in the old AP. Finally, since the AP plan is to centrally locate all rental car operations off field, there's all that room currently occupied be the rent car companies -- room for perhaps 10 or more gates. Then there's the entire east side of the AP .... If ORD can build western gateway, I bet DAL can build an eastern gateway. As a matter of fact, Legend already did that.


Sir, you'll have to parse my words again. Didn't say there was no space for new/reestablished gates, just limited acreage. Further, my suggestion was that some of the potential asks (for gates) may outstrip that available acreage.

If the current litigation ultimately determines - in part - that Love has been artificially constrained, the asks for gates could be all over the map. Might say AA request the equivalent of the space it leased just prior to 5 party? That would be a pretty daunting - and likely unrealistic - ask should Love have to be opened further.

The Legend terminal was an outlier. A privately financed/built alteration of an existing structure with tailored specifications (DC-9 sized gates, 56 seat holdrooms) for Legend operations. Easy pass for scoping purposes.

Let's save expansion eastward along Cedar Springs for a future thread.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 9:46 pm

aaway wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
aaway wrote:
Regardless of perspective here (con/pro), there is a physical limitation to the number of gates that could be reestablished at Love.


Actually, that is not the case. There would be room for perhaps 5 gates next to the new parking garage near the footprint of the old CO and AA gates. Likewise, there's room for perhaps 3-5 gates near where gates 41-43 were located in the old AP. Finally, since the AP plan is to centrally locate all rental car operations off field, there's all that room currently occupied be the rent car companies -- room for perhaps 10 or more gates. Then there's the entire east side of the AP .... If ORD can build western gateway, I bet DAL can build an eastern gateway. As a matter of fact, Legend already did that.


Sir, you'll have to parse my words again. Didn't say there was no space for new/reestablished gates, just limited acreage. Further, my suggestion was that some of the potential asks (for gates) may outstrip that available acreage.

If the current litigation ultimately determines - in part - that Love has been artificially constrained, the asks for gates could be all over the map. Might say AA request the equivalent of the space it leased just prior to 5 party? That would be a pretty daunting - and likely unrealistic - ask should Love have to be opened further.

The Legend terminal was an outlier. A privately financed/built alteration of an existing structure with tailored specifications (DC-9 sized gates, 56 seat holdrooms) for Legend operations. Easy pass for scoping purposes.

Let's save expansion eastward along Cedar Springs for a future thread.


Thank you for proving your lack of knowledge about Love Field. Cedar Springs is the thoroughfare that turns into Herb Kelleher Way and is the main road into the AP.

In any event there is enough acreage to more than double the number of gates at Love Field.
 
aaway
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 10:03 pm

Lol - well, you've gotten the last word in.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
DDR
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 10:20 pm

Ok, so what is Delta’s plan? Anyone?
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat May 12, 2018 10:22 pm

DDR wrote:
Ok, so what is Delta’s plan? Anyone?



IMO, keep up the court fight and continue to squat on WN's gate.
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sun May 13, 2018 12:08 am

aaway wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
aaway wrote:
Regardless of perspective here (con/pro), there is a physical limitation to the number of gates that could be reestablished at Love.


Actually, that is not the case. There would be room for perhaps 5 gates next to the new parking garage near the footprint of the old CO and AA gates. Likewise, there's room for perhaps 3-5 gates near where gates 41-43 were located in the old AP. Finally, since the AP plan is to centrally locate all rental car operations off field, there's all that room currently occupied be the rent car companies -- room for perhaps 10 or more gates. Then there's the entire east side of the AP .... If ORD can build western gateway, I bet DAL can build an eastern gateway. As a matter of fact, Legend already did that.


Sir, you'll have to parse my words again. Didn't say there was no space for new/reestablished gates, just limited acreage. Further, my suggestion was that some of the potential asks (for gates) may outstrip that available acreage.

If the current litigation ultimately determines - in part - that Love has been artificially constrained, the asks for gates could be all over the map. Might say AA request the equivalent of the space it leased just prior to 5 party? That would be a pretty daunting - and likely unrealistic - ask should Love have to be opened further.

The Legend terminal was an outlier. A privately financed/built alteration of an existing structure with tailored specifications (DC-9 sized gates, 56 seat holdrooms) for Legend operations. Easy pass for scoping purposes.

Let's save expansion eastward along Cedar Springs for a future thread.


Subsection (a) of Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act says the following: "The city of Dallas, Texas, shall reduce as soon as practicable, the number of gates available for passenger air service at Love Field to no more than 20 gates. Thereafter, the number of gates available for such service shall not exceed a maximum of 20 gates. The city of Dallas, pursuant to its authority to operate and regulate the airport as granted under chapter 22 of the Texas Transportation Code and this Act, shall determine the allocation of leased gates and manage Love Field in accordance with contractual rights and obligations existing as of the effective date of this Act for certificated air carriers providing scheduled passenger service at Love Field on July 11, 2006. To accommodate new entrant air carriers, the city of Dallas shall honor the scarce resource provision of the existing Love Field leases."

Even though DAL is artificially constrained by Subsection (a) of Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, this restriction is legal in the case of Dallas Love Field because the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 is a federal statute that imposes restrictions specific to Dallas Love Field. As such, artificially imposed capacity restrictions that would be illegal at other commercial airports in the U.S. are not necessarily illegal at DAL. The restriction of 20 gates at DAL would remain in effect unless Congress amends the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, even if a federal court finds DAL to be artificially constrained.

Did the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, the DFW International Airport Board, American Airlines, and Southwest Airlines violate federal law or Texas state law by artificially imposing a 20-gate limit at DAL when these 5 parties signed the agreement on June 15, 2006 or when a contract imposing the same restrictions was signed by the 5 parties on July 11, 2006?
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sun May 13, 2018 12:38 am

WN has the RIGHT to operate 18/20 gates out of DAL. They (and possibly AS) are the only ones providing competition to DFW down the street. Delta has enough flights/competitive advantage over at DFW, they don't need to operate out of DAL as well.

Apparently the US3 is not good enough with trying to get rid of Norwegian or the ME3, we have to attack WN, B6, AS, and HA as well along with the ULCC's.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
notdownnlocked
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sun May 13, 2018 12:57 pm

bob75013 wrote:
DDR wrote:
Ok, so what is Delta’s plan? Anyone?



IMO, keep up the court fight and continue to squat on WN's gate.


Why does this topic keep your heart rate so high so much? Why are you so livid about this topic and what is the name of your horse in this race? Why is this personal to you? Just asking from 75019. Is the water acrid in 75013? Peace bro. GO Allen Americans!!! So if DL gets kicked out of DAL and WN adds 75000 daily flights from their new gate who cares? What is the difference in the scheme of life? I ask you, how does it matter to you personally? Are personally getting paid from all of this?
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sun May 13, 2018 3:34 pm

notdownnlocked wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
DDR wrote:
Ok, so what is Delta’s plan? Anyone?



IMO, keep up the court fight and continue to squat on WN's gate.


Why does this topic keep your heart rate so high so much? Why are you so livid about this topic and what is the name of your horse in this race? Why is this personal to you? Just asking from 75019. Is the water acrid in 75013? Peace bro. GO Allen Americans!!! So if DL gets kicked out of DAL and WN adds 75000 daily flights from their new gate who cares? What is the difference in the scheme of life? I ask you, how does it matter to you personally? Are personally getting paid from all of this?


Wow. all that diatribe over my simply providing a simple answer to a simple question...what happens when you really get excited?

ROTFLMBFAO

edit add:

if you want to add value to the thread, why don't you take a shot at answering the question 'What is DL's plan?
 
aaway
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sun May 13, 2018 4:43 pm

jplatts wrote:
Even though DAL is artificially constrained by Subsection (a) of Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, this restriction is legal in the case of Dallas Love Field because the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 is a federal statute that imposes restrictions specific to Dallas Love Field. As such, artificially imposed capacity restrictions that would be illegal at other commercial airports in the U.S. are not necessarily illegal at DAL. The restriction of 20 gates at DAL would remain in effect unless Congress amends the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, even if a federal court finds DAL to be artificially constrained.

Did the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, the DFW International Airport Board, American Airlines, and Southwest Airlines violate federal law or Texas state law by artificially imposing a 20-gate limit at DAL when these 5 parties signed the agreement on June 15, 2006 or when a contract imposing the same restrictions was signed by the 5 parties on July 11, 2006?


As of now - no. Unless, and until, there is a challenge to WARA, then the answer would be yet-to-be-determined.

I'm sure the lawyers involved in crafting WARA did so with the Commerce Clause in mind. The Commerce Clause gives Congress wide latitude with regard to "regulating interstate commerce". In the past, there have been challenges to Congressional legislation that evoked the Commerce Clause. Those challenges were adjudicated by the U.S. Supreme Court.

At this point, we're a few steps away from crossing that threshold.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
cjpark
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 3:01 pm

WN732 wrote:
These laws that are stemming from an original set from 50 years ago need to be removed. There is no reason why DAL needs to be capped at 20 gates. Delta should be happy to be there at all since they were not part of the agreement between Dallas, Ft Worth, AA, and WN. And since WN has fought so hard for this airport, why shouldn't they have a majority share? This issue is ridiculous.


Yes there is a reason why the airport is capped at 20 gates. And yes there is a reason why Delta should be accommodated at Love Field even Herb said so!


https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-109h ... g30659.htm


REFORMING THE WRIGHT AMENDMENT
=======================================================================

(109-89) HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION OF THE COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION JULY 12, 2006


Mayor Laura Miller Testimony,
Number two, we wanted to protect the neighbors around Love Field, the residents and businesses. It is a landlocked intercity airport and we have done an enormous amount of work in the last 10 years to make sure that we had a balance between growth in competition and also the protection of the neighborhoods regarding pollution, ground congestion, and noise.
I want the committee to know that we have the gentleman, George Vitas, who is the senior person who did the Love Field master plan in 2001 that originally recommended 32 gates as long as the Wright amendment stayed in place. We updated that for purposes of these discussions between the two cities, and that number went to 20 because the same consultants looked at what is the very best number of gates to have without the Wright amendment; if that one variable changed, then how many gates would be appropriate in terms of the environment, in terms of economic growth, and in terms of operations and safety. And that is why the number is 20 and not 17 or 22 or 25, and that gentleman is here behind me and is able to answer a lot of the questions that I heard being posed to the gentleman with the FAA if you look in terms of our master plan work that we have been doing for the last 10 years.


Herb Kelleher in response to a question from Congressman Mica,
Mr. Kelleher. This reduction in gates came about not because it was the strong desire on the part of some of the participants, but really came about because of the prior master plan done by the city of Dallas that allowed the 32 gates at Love Field--provided that most of them were used by regional jet aircraft rather than heavier aircraft such as Southwest Airlines flies. We ourselves are giving up five gates that are our gates as part of this deal. We are going from 21 to 16 gates. And during that entire period of some 25 years, no other carrier ever wanted to come in to utilize those gates. And any carrier that is desirous now of serving Love Field can easily be accommodated even after those gates come down.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
evank516
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 3:30 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
WN has the RIGHT to operate 18/20 gates out of DAL. They (and possibly AS) are the only ones providing competition to DFW down the street. Delta has enough flights/competitive advantage over at DFW, they don't need to operate out of DAL as well.

Apparently the US3 is not good enough with trying to get rid of Norwegian or the ME3, we have to attack WN, B6, AS, and HA as well along with the ULCC's.


But they should be allowed to if they want to. Any airline should be allowed to if they want to. DL has a RIGHT to continue their existing service and you didn't have to be part of the 5 party agreement to operate at DAL. Airlines are required to make reasonable accommodations for new entrants. Assuming "New Entrant" is defined as any air carrier that launches DAL after the signing of the agreement (which makes sense, but we can't know for sure) then DL has a right to be accommodated.
 
red66mustang
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:49 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 3:55 pm

evank516 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
WN has the RIGHT to operate 18/20 gates out of DAL. They (and possibly AS) are the only ones providing competition to DFW down the street. Delta has enough flights/competitive advantage over at DFW, they don't need to operate out of DAL as well.

Apparently the US3 is not good enough with trying to get rid of Norwegian or the ME3, we have to attack WN, B6, AS, and HA as well along with the ULCC's.


But they should be allowed to if they want to. Any airline should be allowed to if they want to. DL has a RIGHT to continue their existing service and you didn't have to be part of the 5 party agreement to operate at DAL. Airlines are required to make reasonable accommodations for new entrants. Assuming "New Entrant" is defined as any air carrier that launches DAL after the signing of the agreement (which makes sense, but we can't know for sure) then DL has a right to be accommodated.


DL has the right to serve the airport, I don't think anyone would argue against that, but they do not have the right to squat on the gates they do not own or have legal access to. DL could have paid UA to sublease the gates, however they did not, instead another party who was willing to pay the sum took possession.
 
evank516
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 4:07 pm

red66mustang wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
WN has the RIGHT to operate 18/20 gates out of DAL. They (and possibly AS) are the only ones providing competition to DFW down the street. Delta has enough flights/competitive advantage over at DFW, they don't need to operate out of DAL as well.

Apparently the US3 is not good enough with trying to get rid of Norwegian or the ME3, we have to attack WN, B6, AS, and HA as well along with the ULCC's.


But they should be allowed to if they want to. Any airline should be allowed to if they want to. DL has a RIGHT to continue their existing service and you didn't have to be part of the 5 party agreement to operate at DAL. Airlines are required to make reasonable accommodations for new entrants. Assuming "New Entrant" is defined as any air carrier that launches DAL after the signing of the agreement (which makes sense, but we can't know for sure) then DL has a right to be accommodated.


DL has the right to serve the airport, I don't think anyone would argue against that, but they do not have the right to squat on the gates they do not own or have legal access to. DL could have paid UA to sublease the gates, however they did not, instead another party who was willing to pay the sum took possession.


DL is flying ATL-DAL like they fly ATL-XXX at many other places. They've expanded to mainline at DAL once the 5 Party Agreement took full effect. I'd hardly call that squatting. If you want a real example of squatting let's remember how many dailies US flew between LGA and PHL. I think demand would dictate 5 daily flights to their largest hub is completely within reason. As for paying UA to sublease their gates, my recollection is that it was a closed door deal between WN and UA, and I don't think DL even had the chance to offer anything there. There's a thread on here discussing it and I remember it being very sneaky.
 
bob75013
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 4:35 pm

evank516 wrote:
red66mustang wrote:
evank516 wrote:

But they should be allowed to if they want to. Any airline should be allowed to if they want to. DL has a RIGHT to continue their existing service and you didn't have to be part of the 5 party agreement to operate at DAL. Airlines are required to make reasonable accommodations for new entrants. Assuming "New Entrant" is defined as any air carrier that launches DAL after the signing of the agreement (which makes sense, but we can't know for sure) then DL has a right to be accommodated.


DL has the right to serve the airport, I don't think anyone would argue against that, but they do not have the right to squat on the gates they do not own or have legal access to. DL could have paid UA to sublease the gates, however they did not, instead another party who was willing to pay the sum took possession.


DL is flying ATL-DAL like they fly ATL-XXX at many other places. They've expanded to mainline at DAL once the 5 Party Agreement took full effect. I'd hardly call that squatting. If you want a real example of squatting let's remember how many dailies US flew between LGA and PHL. I think demand would dictate 5 daily flights to their largest hub is completely within reason. As for paying UA to sublease their gates, my recollection is that it was a closed door deal between WN and UA, and I don't think DL even had the chance to offer anything there. There's a thread on here discussing it and I remember it being very sneaky.


DL is squatting on WN's gate. DL had been using AA's gate, but then AA sold the gate to VX. WN agreed to TEMPORARILY let Dl use some gate space. DL refused to leave after the TEMPORARY agreement time period ended.

That is what happened.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 4:36 pm

cjpark wrote:
WN732 wrote:
These laws that are stemming from an original set from 50 years ago need to be removed. There is no reason why DAL needs to be capped at 20 gates. Delta should be happy to be there at all since they were not part of the agreement between Dallas, Ft Worth, AA, and WN. And since WN has fought so hard for this airport, why shouldn't they have a majority share? This issue is ridiculous.


Yes there is a reason why the airport is capped at 20 gates. And yes there is a reason why Delta should be accommodated at Love Field even Herb said so!


The circumstances have significantly changed in the DAL/DFW market since the 5-party agreement was negotiated, including the following:
  • Greater than expected demand for flights out of DFW, including greater than expected demand for AA flights out of DFW
  • Greater than expected demand for WN flights out of DAL due to the WN-FL merger and WN's entry into additional markets after the enactment of the WARA
  • Greater than expected LCC service out of DFW due to NK adding nonstop service to 24 destinations from DFW, F9 adding DFW-CVG nonstop service, and B6 adding DFW-BOS nonstop service
  • Almost all of the gates at DFW in actual use by at least 1 airline
  • Population growth in the DFW Metroplex
  • More businesses relocating to or expanding in the DFW Metroplex
  • WN has retired its 737-300 and 737-500 planes
  • WN now operates Boeing 737 MAX planes, which are quieter than earlier generation 737 planes
  • Both AS and DL have newer-generation mainline aircraft on order, and both of these carriers have plans to take delivery of newer-generation mainline aircraft in the near future

A new study on whether DAL should be expanded beyond 20 gates should be conducted since the circumstances have significantly changed in the DAL/DFW market. If the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 are amended to allow expansion of Dallas Love Field beyond its 20-gate limit, there should be reasonable restrictions on any expansion at DAL in order to minimize impacts on residential neighborhoods and businesses near DAL.
 
KMCOFlyer
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:32 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 5:04 pm

bob75013 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
red66mustang wrote:

DL has the right to serve the airport, I don't think anyone would argue against that, but they do not have the right to squat on the gates they do not own or have legal access to. DL could have paid UA to sublease the gates, however they did not, instead another party who was willing to pay the sum took possession.


DL is flying ATL-DAL like they fly ATL-XXX at many other places. They've expanded to mainline at DAL once the 5 Party Agreement took full effect. I'd hardly call that squatting. If you want a real example of squatting let's remember how many dailies US flew between LGA and PHL. I think demand would dictate 5 daily flights to their largest hub is completely within reason. As for paying UA to sublease their gates, my recollection is that it was a closed door deal between WN and UA, and I don't think DL even had the chance to offer anything there. There's a thread on here discussing it and I remember it being very sneaky.


DL is squatting on WN's gate. DL had been using AA's gate, but then AA sold the gate to VX. WN agreed to TEMPORARILY let Dl use some gate space. DL refused to leave after the TEMPORARY agreement time period ended.

That is what happened.


WN did agree to temporarily let DL use the gates for a couple of months past 10/2014 (when the WA expired) and DL signed a lease to share UAs gate which a few months later turned around and sublease the gates to WN. DL has not had any opertunity to have a full lease at DAL since 2014 in which I find ridiculously. There is no reason why DL should be denied acsess as the 5-party agreement states that the City of Dallas should work with airlines and their leases to make room for any entries that wish to serve DAL. Since DL wants to serve DAL, they have legal rights to do so and should be granted space.
 
cjpark
Posts: 1219
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 6:00 pm

jplatts wrote:
cjpark wrote:
WN732 wrote:
These laws that are stemming from an original set from 50 years ago need to be removed. There is no reason why DAL needs to be capped at 20 gates. Delta should be happy to be there at all since they were not part of the agreement between Dallas, Ft Worth, AA, and WN. And since WN has fought so hard for this airport, why shouldn't they have a majority share? This issue is ridiculous.


Yes there is a reason why the airport is capped at 20 gates. And yes there is a reason why Delta should be accommodated at Love Field even Herb said so!


The circumstances have significantly changed in the DAL/DFW market since the 5-party agreement was negotiated, including the following:
  • Greater than expected demand for flights out of DFW, including greater than expected demand for AA flights out of DFW
  • Greater than expected demand for WN flights out of DAL due to the WN-FL merger and WN's entry into additional markets after the enactment of the WARA
  • Greater than expected LCC service out of DFW due to NK adding nonstop service to 24 destinations from DFW, F9 adding DFW-CVG nonstop service, and B6 adding DFW-BOS nonstop service
  • Almost all of the gates at DFW in actual use by at least 1 airline
  • Population growth in the DFW Metroplex
  • More businesses relocating to or expanding in the DFW Metroplex
  • WN has retired its 737-300 and 737-500 planes
  • WN now operates Boeing 737 MAX planes, which are quieter than earlier generation 737 planes
  • Both AS and DL have newer-generation mainline aircraft on order, and both of these carriers have plans to take delivery of newer-generation mainline aircraft in the near future

A new study on whether DAL should be expanded beyond 20 gates should be conducted since the circumstances have significantly changed in the DAL/DFW market. If the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 are amended to allow expansion of Dallas Love Field beyond its 20-gate limit, there should be reasonable restrictions on any expansion at DAL in order to minimize impacts on residential neighborhoods and businesses near DAL.


None of the points you make address the real reason why the airport was capped at 20 gates.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
sccutler
Posts: 5748
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 6:29 pm

cjpark wrote:
jplatts wrote:
cjpark wrote:

Yes there is a reason why the airport is capped at 20 gates. And yes there is a reason why Delta should be accommodated at Love Field even Herb said so!


The circumstances have significantly changed in the DAL/DFW market since the 5-party agreement was negotiated, including the following:
  • Greater than expected demand for flights out of DFW, including greater than expected demand for AA flights out of DFW
  • Greater than expected demand for WN flights out of DAL due to the WN-FL merger and WN's entry into additional markets after the enactment of the WARA
  • Greater than expected LCC service out of DFW due to NK adding nonstop service to 24 destinations from DFW, F9 adding DFW-CVG nonstop service, and B6 adding DFW-BOS nonstop service
  • Almost all of the gates at DFW in actual use by at least 1 airline
  • Population growth in the DFW Metroplex
  • More businesses relocating to or expanding in the DFW Metroplex
  • WN has retired its 737-300 and 737-500 planes
  • WN now operates Boeing 737 MAX planes, which are quieter than earlier generation 737 planes
  • Both AS and DL have newer-generation mainline aircraft on order, and both of these carriers have plans to take delivery of newer-generation mainline aircraft in the near future

A new study on whether DAL should be expanded beyond 20 gates should be conducted since the circumstances have significantly changed in the DAL/DFW market. If the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 are amended to allow expansion of Dallas Love Field beyond its 20-gate limit, there should be reasonable restrictions on any expansion at DAL in order to minimize impacts on residential neighborhoods and businesses near DAL.


None of the points you make address the real reason why the airport was capped at 20 gates.


Indeed.

A deal's a deal; we can never know what else might have happened, but the parties compromised, agreed and the agreement led to the legislation as passed and enacted.

Not saying it can never change - but it'll be an uphill battle, and I wouldn't bet on it.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
bob75013
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 6:31 pm

cjpark wrote:
jplatts wrote:
cjpark wrote:

Yes there is a reason why the airport is capped at 20 gates. And yes there is a reason why Delta should be accommodated at Love Field even Herb said so!


The circumstances have significantly changed in the DAL/DFW market since the 5-party agreement was negotiated, including the following:
  • Greater than expected demand for flights out of DFW, including greater than expected demand for AA flights out of DFW
  • Greater than expected demand for WN flights out of DAL due to the WN-FL merger and WN's entry into additional markets after the enactment of the WARA
  • Greater than expected LCC service out of DFW due to NK adding nonstop service to 24 destinations from DFW, F9 adding DFW-CVG nonstop service, and B6 adding DFW-BOS nonstop service
  • Almost all of the gates at DFW in actual use by at least 1 airline
  • Population growth in the DFW Metroplex
  • More businesses relocating to or expanding in the DFW Metroplex
  • WN has retired its 737-300 and 737-500 planes
  • WN now operates Boeing 737 MAX planes, which are quieter than earlier generation 737 planes
  • Both AS and DL have newer-generation mainline aircraft on order, and both of these carriers have plans to take delivery of newer-generation mainline aircraft in the near future

A new study on whether DAL should be expanded beyond 20 gates should be conducted since the circumstances have significantly changed in the DAL/DFW market. If the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 are amended to allow expansion of Dallas Love Field beyond its 20-gate limit, there should be reasonable restrictions on any expansion at DAL in order to minimize impacts on residential neighborhoods and businesses near DAL.


None of the points you make address the real reason why the airport was capped at 20 gates.


Why was it capped 20 years ago?

1) starting in the early 2000's WN was gaining increasing access via legislation to airports outside of the original Wright boundaries (STL, MCI and others)
2) Local Pols realized they could do NOTHING to prevent this process from continuing unimpeded (STL today, MDW, LGA, LAX tomorrow).
3) Pols decided to modify the agreement to try to control "out of control" WN expansion
4) AA DFW and Ft. Worth were desperate to try to limit WN - limiting gates was the way
5) WN agreed to the gate limit because it was desperate to fly unimpeded from DAL

As they say "half a loaf, is better than no bread at all."

WN got some of what it wanted, AA. Ft. Worth and DFW got some of what they wanted. Everybody swallowed some bitter pills.
 
evank516
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 7:52 pm

bob75013 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
red66mustang wrote:

DL has the right to serve the airport, I don't think anyone would argue against that, but they do not have the right to squat on the gates they do not own or have legal access to. DL could have paid UA to sublease the gates, however they did not, instead another party who was willing to pay the sum took possession.


DL is flying ATL-DAL like they fly ATL-XXX at many other places. They've expanded to mainline at DAL once the 5 Party Agreement took full effect. I'd hardly call that squatting. If you want a real example of squatting let's remember how many dailies US flew between LGA and PHL. I think demand would dictate 5 daily flights to their largest hub is completely within reason. As for paying UA to sublease their gates, my recollection is that it was a closed door deal between WN and UA, and I don't think DL even had the chance to offer anything there. There's a thread on here discussing it and I remember it being very sneaky.


DL is squatting on WN's gate. DL had been using AA's gate, but then AA sold the gate to VX. WN agreed to TEMPORARILY let Dl use some gate space. DL refused to leave after the TEMPORARY agreement time period ended.

That is what happened.


AA didn't SELL their gates to VX, the DOT awarded the SUBLEASE to VX. Delta's hat was in the ring and they were shot down. It's not squatting, it's gate sharing, just as WN (and any other airline) is obligated to do according to the Wright Compromise. WN has 18 gates out of 20 (the compromise gave them 16, UA 2, and AA 2) thanks to the sneaky deal they pulled off with UA. They shouldn't have been allowed to sublease those gates when another carrier with no indefinite home at the airport was interested in continuing service there. And from what I read, DL is arguing over the UA/WN deal for UA's two gates: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... d-attempts

Frankly, that sublease should not have been approved.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 10:48 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Why was it capped 20 years ago?

1) starting in the early 2000's WN was gaining increasing access via legislation to airports outside of the original Wright boundaries (STL, MCI and others)
2) Local Pols realized they could do NOTHING to prevent this process from continuing unimpeded (STL today, MDW, LGA, LAX tomorrow).
3) Pols decided to modify the agreement to try to control "out of control" WN expansion
4) AA DFW and Ft. Worth were desperate to try to limit WN - limiting gates was the way
5) WN agreed to the gate limit because it was desperate to fly unimpeded from DAL

As they say "half a loaf, is better than no bread at all."

WN got some of what it wanted, AA. Ft. Worth and DFW got some of what they wanted. Everybody swallowed some bitter pills.


AA now carries over 48 million passengers out of DFW (including on American Eagle flights) each year, and WN now carries over 14 million passengers out of DAL each year. Demand for AA service out of DFW is still increasing, even with the post-Wright Amendment expansion out of DAL. AA is already too big at DFW for WN to be able to overtake AA in the DFW/DAL market, even if the 5-party agreement and the WARA are amended to allow expansion of DAL beyond its current 20-gate limit. In order for WN to be able to overtake AA at DFW, DAL would have to be expanded to at least 44 gates (or WN would have to serve more than just DAL in the DFW Metroplex), and WN would have to do at least 400 daily departures out of DAL (and/or other airports in the DFW Metroplex).

Even though immediate repeal of the Wright Amendment 12 years ago would have shifted more demand over to WN out of DAL from AA out of DFW, there would have been significant demand for AA service out of DFW subsequent to immediate repeal of the Wright Amendment if the Wright Amendment were immediately repealed 12 years ago (instead of having to wait 8 years for full repeal of the Wright Amendment). AA would likely have carried at least 36 million passengers out of DFW (including both AA mainline and American Eagle) back in 2007 if the Wright Amendment were fully repealed 12 years ago.
 
Strudle
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:47 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 10:48 pm

The answer predates all of the discussion and "Agreements " you have heard forever.The Master Agreement between Cities of Dallas and Ft. Worth and the FAA was to close Love Field and build a new airport For ALL Commercial Flight Activity. Reason was safety, crowded space, lack of adequate Air space and need for an additional Airline activity so the need for a new airport. Period end of Story! Ah but not the end of story as soon as Dallas business realize they had to drive a few miles to DFW they balked, they liked the minutes away DAL. So the Southwest was invented to fly solely within Texas to circumvent the existing Agreement and keep DAL open. Law suits were filed but as SW flew only within Texas the FAA could not stop them from using DAL. Then Jim Wright {from Ft Worth} got in the act with Wright Amendment to counter SW desire to fly beyond Texas from DAL. Then Wright Amendment gave SW the "Right" to fly to several adjacent states but it had a "Sunset" date. Thus SW got the entire airport, runways and Dallas business got its own airport within minutes from downtown.
The Answer is Close DAL to ALL commercial airline activity, just as the original Agreement provided , thus move SW to DFW. When we weave with lies and back stabbing to contrive to serve
certain of individuals expecting favors we get this type of nonsense such as the Dallas answer. As Chicago would say the fix is in an stays in!
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 11:06 pm

evank516 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
evank516 wrote:

DL is flying ATL-DAL like they fly ATL-XXX at many other places. They've expanded to mainline at DAL once the 5 Party Agreement took full effect. I'd hardly call that squatting. If you want a real example of squatting let's remember how many dailies US flew between LGA and PHL. I think demand would dictate 5 daily flights to their largest hub is completely within reason. As for paying UA to sublease their gates, my recollection is that it was a closed door deal between WN and UA, and I don't think DL even had the chance to offer anything there. There's a thread on here discussing it and I remember it being very sneaky.


DL is squatting on WN's gate. DL had been using AA's gate, but then AA sold the gate to VX. WN agreed to TEMPORARILY let Dl use some gate space. DL refused to leave after the TEMPORARY agreement time period ended.

That is what happened.


AA didn't SELL their gates to VX, the DOT awarded the SUBLEASE to VX. Delta's hat was in the ring and they were shot down. It's not squatting, it's gate sharing, just as WN (and any other airline) is obligated to do according to the Wright Compromise. WN has 18 gates out of 20 (the compromise gave them 16, UA 2, and AA 2) thanks to the sneaky deal they pulled off with UA. They shouldn't have been allowed to sublease those gates when another carrier with no indefinite home at the airport was interested in continuing service there. And from what I read, DL is arguing over the UA/WN deal for UA's two gates: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... d-attempts

Frankly, that sublease should not have been approved.


There is probably enough room to accommodate 180 WN departures a day and 16 DL departures a day out of the 18 gates at DAL currently used by WN and DL (the 16 gates leased to WN plus the 2 UA gates currently subleased to WN from UA). Common use terminal equipment (CUTE) can be installed at DAL that would allow WN and DL to share at least 6 additional gates at DAL, including the other UA gate that is currently subleased to WN at DAL.

Here is how I came up with 180 WN departures and 16 DL departures at DAL:
16 gates x 11 departures per day per gate = 176 departures a day (WN actually does as many as 12 departures per day per gate out of gates that are only used by WN at DAL, and WN currently does an average of more than 11 departures per gate per day at AUS, BUR, LAX, and SJC.)
180 departures a day - 176 departures a day = 4 departures a day (the number of WN departures that need to be accommodated out of the 2 UA gates currently subleased by WN at DAL)
2 gates x 10 departures per day per gate = 20 departures per day (number of daily departures out of the 2 gates leased to UA at DAL)
20 departures per day - 4 departures per day = 16 departures per day (number of DL departures that can be accommodated out of the 2 UA gates at DAL)

The UA lease and WN sublease of the UA gates should be amended to allow DL to sublease the gates on a non-exclusive basis, and CUTE should be installed at DAL in order to allow DL and WN to share 6 additional gates at DAL (in addition to Gate 15 which is currently shared between DL and WN).

In my opinion, WN is doing an average of 18 flights a day out of the 2 UA gates that are subleased to WN at DAL in an attempt to hang onto the 2 gates that are subleased to WN at DAL when there is probably room for WN to do more of its departures out of the 16 gates that are currently leased to WN at DAL.
 
bob75013
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 15, 2018 11:12 pm

jplatts wrote:
evank516 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

DL is squatting on WN's gate. DL had been using AA's gate, but then AA sold the gate to VX. WN agreed to TEMPORARILY let Dl use some gate space. DL refused to leave after the TEMPORARY agreement time period ended.

That is what happened.


AA didn't SELL their gates to VX, the DOT awarded the SUBLEASE to VX. Delta's hat was in the ring and they were shot down. It's not squatting, it's gate sharing, just as WN (and any other airline) is obligated to do according to the Wright Compromise. WN has 18 gates out of 20 (the compromise gave them 16, UA 2, and AA 2) thanks to the sneaky deal they pulled off with UA. They shouldn't have been allowed to sublease those gates when another carrier with no indefinite home at the airport was interested in continuing service there. And from what I read, DL is arguing over the UA/WN deal for UA's two gates: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... d-attempts

Frankly, that sublease should not have been approved.


There is probably enough room to accommodate 180 WN departures a day and 16 DL departures a day out of the 18 gates at DAL currently used by WN and DL (the 16 gates leased to WN plus the 2 UA gates currently subleased to WN from UA). Common use terminal equipment (CUTE) can be installed at DAL that would allow WN and DL to share at least 6 additional gates at DAL, including the other UA gate that is currently subleased to WN at DAL.

Here is how I came up with 180 WN departures and 16 DL departures at DAL:
16 gates x 11 departures per day per gate = 176 departures a day (WN actually does as many as 12 departures per day per gate out of gates that are only used by WN at DAL, and WN currently does an average of more than 11 departures per gate per day at AUS, BUR, LAX, and SJC.)
180 departures a day - 176 departures a day = 4 departures a day (the number of WN departures that need to be accommodated out of the 2 UA gates currently subleased by WN at DAL)
2 gates x 10 departures per day per gate = 20 departures per day (number of daily departures out of the 2 gates leased to UA at DAL)
20 departures per day - 4 departures per day = 16 departures per day (number of DL departures that can be accommodated out of the 2 UA gates at DAL)

The UA lease and WN sublease of the UA gates should be amended to allow DL to sublease the gates on a non-exclusive basis, and CUTE should be installed at DAL in order to allow DL and WN to share 6 additional gates at DAL (in addition to Gate 15 which is currently shared between DL and WN).

In my opinion, WN is doing an average of 18 flights a day out of the 2 UA gates that are subleased to WN at DAL in an attempt to hang onto the 2 gates that are subleased to WN at DAL when there is probably room for WN to do more of its departures out of the 16 gates that are currently leased to WN at DAL.


You are dreaming. WN will claim that it's gates are fully utilized, and you are really dreaming if you think WN would allow any of it's gates to be subleased. Ain't gonna happen
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 12:24 am

bob75013 wrote:
You are dreaming. WN will claim that it's gates are fully utilized, and you are really dreaming if you think WN would allow any of it's gates to be subleased. Ain't gonna happen


I agree with your point, even though WN currently does more flights per day per gate at AUS, BUR, LAX, and SJC than it does at DAL. In addition, a worst-case scenario of 15 turns per gate per day was even mentioned in the Five Party Agreement TARPS for Dallas Love Field, which can be found at http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/dal_tarps.pdf.
 
MD80Man
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 am

Strudle wrote:
The answer predates all of the discussion and "Agreements " you have heard forever.The Master Agreement between Cities of Dallas and Ft. Worth and the FAA was to close Love Field and build a new airport For ALL Commercial Flight Activity. Reason was safety, crowded space, lack of adequate Air space and need for an additional Airline activity so the need for a new airport. Period end of Story! Ah but not the end of story as soon as Dallas business realize they had to drive a few miles to DFW they balked, they liked the minutes away DAL. So the Southwest was invented to fly solely within Texas to circumvent the existing Agreement and keep DAL open. Law suits were filed but as SW flew only within Texas the FAA could not stop them from using DAL. Then Jim Wright {from Ft Worth} got in the act with Wright Amendment to counter SW desire to fly beyond Texas from DAL. Then Wright Amendment gave SW the "Right" to fly to several adjacent states but it had a "Sunset" date. Thus SW got the entire airport, runways and Dallas business got its own airport within minutes from downtown.
The Answer is Close DAL to ALL commercial airline activity, just as the original Agreement provided , thus move SW to DFW. When we weave with lies and back stabbing to contrive to serve
certain of individuals expecting favors we get this type of nonsense such as the Dallas answer. As Chicago would say the fix is in an stays in!


Agreed, DFW is the most important economic engine to the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex. Any move made to cater to one airline and a passenger pool that represents less than half of the population of potential passengers is counter productive to growth and stimulation to the local economy. All airline activity at Love Field should've been eradicated and forced to DFW in the beginning. If WN feels they can't compete at DFW they can choose not to serve the Metroplex I guess? I mean if their service offering is so great why deal with a gate cap and small airport when they could have zero restrictions and as many gates as they could ever want at DFW?
 
bob75013
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 11:27 am

MD80Man wrote:
Strudle wrote:
The answer predates all of the discussion and "Agreements " you have heard forever.The Master Agreement between Cities of Dallas and Ft. Worth and the FAA was to close Love Field and build a new airport For ALL Commercial Flight Activity. Reason was safety, crowded space, lack of adequate Air space and need for an additional Airline activity so the need for a new airport. Period end of Story! Ah but not the end of story as soon as Dallas business realize they had to drive a few miles to DFW they balked, they liked the minutes away DAL. So the Southwest was invented to fly solely within Texas to circumvent the existing Agreement and keep DAL open. Law suits were filed but as SW flew only within Texas the FAA could not stop them from using DAL. Then Jim Wright {from Ft Worth} got in the act with Wright Amendment to counter SW desire to fly beyond Texas from DAL. Then Wright Amendment gave SW the "Right" to fly to several adjacent states but it had a "Sunset" date. Thus SW got the entire airport, runways and Dallas business got its own airport within minutes from downtown.
The Answer is Close DAL to ALL commercial airline activity, just as the original Agreement provided , thus move SW to DFW. When we weave with lies and back stabbing to contrive to serve
certain of individuals expecting favors we get this type of nonsense such as the Dallas answer. As Chicago would say the fix is in an stays in!


Agreed, DFW is the most important economic engine to the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex. Any move made to cater to one airline and a passenger pool that represents less than half of the population of potential passengers is counter productive to growth and stimulation to the local economy. All airline activity at Love Field should've been eradicated and forced to DFW in the beginning. If WN feels they can't compete at DFW they can choose not to serve the Metroplex I guess? I mean if their service offering is so great why deal with a gate cap and small airport when they could have zero restrictions and as many gates as they could ever want at DFW?


WN's not trying to be the big dog in Dallas. It doesn't need or want 400+ flights to accommodate it's RJ fleet. .Heck it's biggest station is MDW with around 250 flights. IT doesn't need gates to fly to Paducah, or Evansville or Cody, Wy. because it doesn't service cities of that size and has no RJs.. I suspect it would like a few more gates so it could have daily non-stop service to some bigger cities it can't serve because of the gate cap. Minneapolis and Milwaukee come to mind. If it can;t expand at DAL, WN will wait til 2024 and start service at McKinney or
Alliance or may be both, and nobody will be able to stop them. WN's NEVER going to DFW and put up with the significant delays experienced there, or to help subsidize the significant airport expenses that benefit mainly AA.

Finally, the continued chant that Love Field should have been closed is ridiculous.The feds ruled that Dallas COULD NOT keep DAL open as a general aviation airport AND at the same time ban airline service It wan't closed. That jeanie is out of the bottle. Have fun trying to catch it.
 
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par13del
Posts: 8026
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 11:41 am

bob75013 wrote:
5) WN agreed to the gate limit because it was desperate to fly unimpeded from DAL

As they say "half a loaf, is better than no bread at all."

WN got some of what it wanted, AA. Ft. Worth and DFW got some of what they wanted. Everybody swallowed some bitter pills.

The heart of the problem and no, the facts are proving the old saying wrong, half a loaf is not better.
The new WA is ensuring that WN has to use its gates where it will achieve maximum value, no marginal route, no route proving nada.....
Now compare what is taking place at DFW, we can argue around the moon whether the growth is all down to economic drivers in the metroplex.
 
bob75013
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 11:57 am

par13del wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
5) WN agreed to the gate limit because it was desperate to fly unimpeded from DAL

As they say "half a loaf, is better than no bread at all."

WN got some of what it wanted, AA. Ft. Worth and DFW got some of what they wanted. Everybody swallowed some bitter pills.

The heart of the problem and no, the facts are proving the old saying wrong, half a loaf is not better.
The new WA is ensuring that WN has to use its gates where it will achieve maximum value, no marginal route, no route proving nada.....
Now compare what is taking place at DFW, we can argue around the moon whether the growth is all down to economic drivers in the metroplex.


As I and others have said in this and other DAL threads, if WN can't expand at DAL, WN will simply wait til 2024 and expand at other Metroplex airports The WARA handcuffs are off starting in 2024. I could see the outlying fields being mainly O&D with DAL being a "hub" and marginal route, route proving field.

In the meantime, do you really think WN is unhappy with the significant load factors ,RPMs, and revenues it's getting at DAL?
 
MD80Man
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 12:17 pm

bob75013 wrote:
par13del wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
5) WN agreed to the gate limit because it was desperate to fly unimpeded from DAL

As they say "half a loaf, is better than no bread at all."

WN got some of what it wanted, AA. Ft. Worth and DFW got some of what they wanted. Everybody swallowed some bitter pills.

The heart of the problem and no, the facts are proving the old saying wrong, half a loaf is not better.
The new WA is ensuring that WN has to use its gates where it will achieve maximum value, no marginal route, no route proving nada.....
Now compare what is taking place at DFW, we can argue around the moon whether the growth is all down to economic drivers in the metroplex.


As I and others have said in this and other DAL threads, if WN can't expand at DAL, WN will simply wait til 2024 and expand at other Metroplex airports The WARA handcuffs are off starting in 2024. I could see the outlying fields being mainly O&D with DAL being a "hub" and marginal route, route proving field.

In the meantime, do you really think WN is unhappy with the significant load factors ,RPMs, and revenues it's getting at DAL?


Although, the international flight lock is still in place. Would it ever be realistic for WN to grab one gate at DFW for international flights?
 
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par13del
Posts: 8026
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 12:29 pm

To what end, if they start offering international flights in the metroplex one would also expect connecting traffic, how are they going to get them to DFW, by bus?
If they open up a sizeable DFW footprint they just have to go along with the increased cost and allow other LCC's to use the other cheaper airports in the region.
The region is already looking at more than just WN and AA so.....
 
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par13del
Posts: 8026
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 12:41 pm

bob75013 wrote:
As I and others have said in this and other DAL threads, if WN can't expand at DAL, WN will simply wait til 2024 and expand at other Metroplex airports The WARA handcuffs are off starting in 2024. I could see the outlying fields being mainly O&D with DAL being a "hub" and marginal route, route proving field.

In the meantime, do you really think WN is unhappy with the significant load factors ,RPMs, and revenues it's getting at DAL?

Time will tell on the landscape after 2024, AA will offer one stop shopping at DFW, WN will have at least 2 gateways in the metroplex, I will assume that DAL will continue to be a major administrative / maintenance hub, but the gate cap and lack of international flights means that DAL is crippled. The big questions will be how large will they be allowed to get elsewhere and how loyal pax will be to still avoid DFW, the cost factor will also be a component. My perspective on "allowed" is that there will be resistance, whether it will get to another WA is out there but whoever runs the selected airports will be dealing in a new environment, at present, build out elsewhere was welcomed based on the draconian WA, with that gone, the incentive is an alternative with enhanced tax revenue, which to WN is the cost factor.
 
evank516
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 1:11 pm

bob75013 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
evank516 wrote:

AA didn't SELL their gates to VX, the DOT awarded the SUBLEASE to VX. Delta's hat was in the ring and they were shot down. It's not squatting, it's gate sharing, just as WN (and any other airline) is obligated to do according to the Wright Compromise. WN has 18 gates out of 20 (the compromise gave them 16, UA 2, and AA 2) thanks to the sneaky deal they pulled off with UA. They shouldn't have been allowed to sublease those gates when another carrier with no indefinite home at the airport was interested in continuing service there. And from what I read, DL is arguing over the UA/WN deal for UA's two gates: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... d-attempts

Frankly, that sublease should not have been approved.


There is probably enough room to accommodate 180 WN departures a day and 16 DL departures a day out of the 18 gates at DAL currently used by WN and DL (the 16 gates leased to WN plus the 2 UA gates currently subleased to WN from UA). Common use terminal equipment (CUTE) can be installed at DAL that would allow WN and DL to share at least 6 additional gates at DAL, including the other UA gate that is currently subleased to WN at DAL.

Here is how I came up with 180 WN departures and 16 DL departures at DAL:
16 gates x 11 departures per day per gate = 176 departures a day (WN actually does as many as 12 departures per day per gate out of gates that are only used by WN at DAL, and WN currently does an average of more than 11 departures per gate per day at AUS, BUR, LAX, and SJC.)
180 departures a day - 176 departures a day = 4 departures a day (the number of WN departures that need to be accommodated out of the 2 UA gates currently subleased by WN at DAL)
2 gates x 10 departures per day per gate = 20 departures per day (number of daily departures out of the 2 gates leased to UA at DAL)
20 departures per day - 4 departures per day = 16 departures per day (number of DL departures that can be accommodated out of the 2 UA gates at DAL)

The UA lease and WN sublease of the UA gates should be amended to allow DL to sublease the gates on a non-exclusive basis, and CUTE should be installed at DAL in order to allow DL and WN to share 6 additional gates at DAL (in addition to Gate 15 which is currently shared between DL and WN).

In my opinion, WN is doing an average of 18 flights a day out of the 2 UA gates that are subleased to WN at DAL in an attempt to hang onto the 2 gates that are subleased to WN at DAL when there is probably room for WN to do more of its departures out of the 16 gates that are currently leased to WN at DAL.


You are dreaming. WN will claim that it's gates are fully utilized, and you are really dreaming if you think WN would allow any of it's gates to be subleased. Ain't gonna happen


Then WN is flat out violating it's own agreement. They may not have a choice in the matter. There's no dream here, it's plain and simple, WN was allocated 16 gates per the Wright Compromise, and DL is taking this to court over the sneaky agreement between WN and UA. They don't care about WN's 16 other gates, they care about the 2 gates that UA went behind closed doors with WN over and left DL in the dust.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 1:45 pm

MD80Man wrote:
Although, the international flight lock is still in place. Would it ever be realistic for WN to grab one gate at DFW for international flights?


par13del wrote:
To what end, if they start offering international flights in the metroplex one would also expect connecting traffic, how are they going to get them to DFW, by bus?
If they open up a sizeable DFW footprint they just have to go along with the increased cost and allow other LCC's to use the other cheaper airports in the region.
The region is already looking at more than just WN and AA so.....


There are currently only 11 destinations that have daily nonstop service to DAL on WN that do not already have daily nonstop service to HOU on WN, and these 11 destinations are AMA, BUR, CMH, DTW, LIT, LBB, ONT, PHL, SMF, SLC, and SFO. However, WN will be starting year-round daily nonstop service to CMH from HOU on October 3rd, and WN also already has nonstop service to HOU from OAK and SJC in the San Francisco Bay Area. WN also has Saturday-only seasonal nonstop service to HOU from SLC. BUR and ONT are both located in the Greater Los Angeles area along with LAX, LGB, and SNA, and WN already serves LAX and SNA nonstop from HOU.

WN has served HOU nonstop from AMA, LIT, LBB, and PHL in the past, and WN could bring back nonstop service to HOU from these 4 destinations in order to connect passengers to international destinations. WN also already has daily nonstop service from PHL to other international gateways, including ATL, MDW, DEN, and FLL. WN could also add SMF-HOU nonstop service in order to connect passengers from SMF to international destinations and domestic destinations in the Southeastern U.S.

There is enough room at HOU to accommodate at least 200 domestic departures a day on WN, and WN currently only does around 150 domestic departures a day at HOU. There is no need for WN to connect passengers from domestic flights at DAL onto international flights out of DFW since WN already has nonstop service to HOU from most of the destinations that have nonstop service to DAL on WN, since WN already has an international gateway at HOU, since WN still has enough room to expand domestically at HOU, and since WN can add more domestic flights out of HOU if needed for international connections.

In addition to HOU, WN can also connect passengers onto WN international flights out of ATL, AUS, FLL, and MCO from DAL. FLL is also a major international gateway for WN, and WN can also add more nonstop international flights out of ATL, AUS, and MCO. DFW also already has nonstop service to Mexico on AM, 4O, NK, SY, and Y4 in addition to AA, and DFW also already has nonstop service to some Caribbean destinations on NK, SY, and Vacation Express in addition to AA.
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 998
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 1:55 pm

In less than 6 years it'll be, "Who's adding more service at McMinney?" WN should shift some intra-Texas Flying and leasure routes like MCO and LAS there and open up more markets to Love for better timing for connecting. If I was Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant, I'd be drooling over McKinney.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 2:52 pm

bob75013 wrote:
MD80Man wrote:
Strudle wrote:
The answer predates all of the discussion and "Agreements " you have heard forever.The Master Agreement between Cities of Dallas and Ft. Worth and the FAA was to close Love Field and build a new airport For ALL Commercial Flight Activity. Reason was safety, crowded space, lack of adequate Air space and need for an additional Airline activity so the need for a new airport. Period end of Story! Ah but not the end of story as soon as Dallas business realize they had to drive a few miles to DFW they balked, they liked the minutes away DAL. So the Southwest was invented to fly solely within Texas to circumvent the existing Agreement and keep DAL open. Law suits were filed but as SW flew only within Texas the FAA could not stop them from using DAL. Then Jim Wright {from Ft Worth} got in the act with Wright Amendment to counter SW desire to fly beyond Texas from DAL. Then Wright Amendment gave SW the "Right" to fly to several adjacent states but it had a "Sunset" date. Thus SW got the entire airport, runways and Dallas business got its own airport within minutes from downtown.
The Answer is Close DAL to ALL commercial airline activity, just as the original Agreement provided , thus move SW to DFW. When we weave with lies and back stabbing to contrive to serve
certain of individuals expecting favors we get this type of nonsense such as the Dallas answer. As Chicago would say the fix is in an stays in!


Agreed, DFW is the most important economic engine to the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex. Any move made to cater to one airline and a passenger pool that represents less than half of the population of potential passengers is counter productive to growth and stimulation to the local economy. All airline activity at Love Field should've been eradicated and forced to DFW in the beginning. If WN feels they can't compete at DFW they can choose not to serve the Metroplex I guess? I mean if their service offering is so great why deal with a gate cap and small airport when they could have zero restrictions and as many gates as they could ever want at DFW?


WN's NEVER going to DFW and put up with the significant delays experienced there, or to help subsidize the significant airport expenses that benefit mainly AA.


I completely disagree with this. The delays at DFW aren’t really a factor in WN’s decision making process on whether to service an Airport anymore. Look no further than ATL, LGA, EWR, etc. I think WN will go to DFW (or at least threaten to) in 2024 if the Wright Restrictions on the 20 Gate cap are still in place at DAL. They will probably also want a decent number of gates when they do open DFW and will use DFW as a connection hub as well as to try and develop new markets. DFW can be used for connections and DAL can be used for O&D. This is exactly what WN is doing in MDW and STL. Route O&D over MDW and connections over STL. WN will have no problem doing just this when the time comes and they are no longer required to give up gates at DAL to serve DFW.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 3:01 pm

evank516 wrote:
Then WN is flat out violating it's own agreement. They may not have a choice in the matter. There's no dream here, it's plain and simple, WN was allocated 16 gates per the Wright Compromise, and DL is taking this to court over the sneaky agreement between WN and UA. They don't care about WN's 16 other gates, they care about the 2 gates that UA went behind closed doors with WN over and left DL in the dust.


While the 5-party agreement does not include any clauses that explicitly prohibit WN from subleasing gates at DAL that are not fully utilized by other carriers, the City of Dallas does have authority under the 5-party agreement to require UA and WN to make available the 2 gates that are currently subleased to WN from UA to other carriers if necessary. The City of Dallas even has authority under the 5-party agreement to require WN to share the 16 preferential use gates that are currently leased to WN with other carriers if necessary. The Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 also says the following: "To accommodate new entrant air carriers, the city of Dallas shall honor the scarce resource provision of the existing Love Field leases."

Subsection (b) of Section 3 of Article I of the 5-party agreement says the following regarding the accommodation of new entrant carriers: "To the extent a new entrant carrier seeks to enter Love Field, the City of Dallas will seek voluntary accommodation from its existing carriers to accommodate the new entrant service. If the existing carriers are not able or are not willing to accommodate the new entrant service, then the City of Dallas agrees to require the sharing of preferential lease gates, pursuant to Dallas' existing lease agreements."

Why is there a lawsuit regarding the accommodation of DL at DAL if the City of Dallas clearly has authority under the 5-party agreement and federal law (including the WARA) to require UA and WN to share the 2 UA gates subleased to WN at DAL (and even the 16 preferential-use gates that are leased directly to WN at DAL) with DL (and other carriers) if necessary to accommodate DL (and other carriers) at DAL?

WN probably has room to do at least 176 of its 180 daily departures at DAL out of the 16 preferential-use gates at DAL since WN does more flights per day per gate at AUS, BUR, LAX, and SJC than it does at DAL. WN also knows how to schedule departures out of DAL in a manner that allows WN to do more of its DAL departures out of the 16 preferential-use gates at DAL since WN schedules its nonstop flights to and from AUS, BUR, LAX, and SJC in a manner that allows WN to do more than 10 departures per gate per day out of these 4 airports.

There is enough room at DAL to permanently accommodate DL since DL has been operating DAL-ATL nonstop service out of Gate 15 at DAL for over 3 years, and Gate 15 has seen as many as 13 departures a day (8 on WN and 5 on DL) subsequent to WN subleasing the 2 UA gates at DAL. WN has also done as many as 12 departures per gate per day out of preferential-use gates at DAL that are leased directly to WN and that are currently only used by WN.

Here is a link to a previous post that shows typical usage of the 20 gates at DAL: http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1373105#p19797661 (based on actual gate usage on 5/26/17, but with the VX/AS gate usage updated to reflect recently added AS nonstop service to SEA, PDX, SJC, and SAN)

There are a few gates at DAL that only see 9 departures a day on WN (even on days where there are no flight cancellations), and there is room at DAL for WN to move some of its departures out of Gate 15 to preferential-use gates that do not have to be made available to other carriers at DAL.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1417
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 16, 2018 3:47 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
In less than 6 years it'll be, "Who's adding more service at McMinney?" WN should shift some intra-Texas Flying and leasure routes like MCO and LAS there and open up more markets to Love for better timing for connecting. If I was Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant, I'd be drooling over McKinney.


Actually a company like Propeller Investments could also build a nice terminal at Fort Worth Alliance for a carrier like Allegiant.

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