Big question would be what would WN offer at DFW different from AA if they decided to have a presence of any size?
Cost factors will be the same, quick turns will be minimal based on size, the vaunted WN productivity may be the only differentiating factor, would that be enough to build DFW as a replacement or compliment to DAL?
With the larger 737's in house, they may be looking at some consolidation, my thought is Hobby and DAL, no DFW. New terminal investment has to be recouped, however, if the traffic does not pick up plans will have to change, 2024 is still a few years away.

par13del wrote:

Big question would be what would WN offer at DFW different from AA if they decided to have a presence of any size?
Cost factors will be the same, quick turns will be minimal based on size, the vaunted WN productivity may be the only differentiating factor, would that be enough to build DFW as a replacement or compliment to DAL?
With the larger 737's in house, they may be looking at some consolidation, my thought is Hobby and DAL, no DFW. New terminal investment has to be recouped, however, if the traffic does not pick up plans will have to change, 2024 is still a few years away.

I thought WN was touted as the low cost competitive carrier? And that DAL and DFW are the same market? It's pretty clear that WN's advantage is that they're closer to the downtown area. All things being equal at DFW, it sounds like you don't think their service offering could compete?

WN would be just fine at DFW. There are probably plenty of Ft. Worth area passengers that would consider WN if they flew from both DFW and DAL. As far as the pure coach product since that’s all that WN flies. I think 32” pitch with WiFi, 2 free bags, no change fees, and one of the easiest FF redemption in the industry will compete just fine out of either Airport.

SWADawg wrote:

bob75013 wrote:

MD80Man wrote:

Agreed, DFW is the most important economic engine to the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex. Any move made to cater to one airline and a passenger pool that represents less than half of the population of potential passengers is counter productive to growth and stimulation to the local economy. All airline activity at Love Field should've been eradicated and forced to DFW in the beginning. If WN feels they can't compete at DFW they can choose not to serve the Metroplex I guess? I mean if their service offering is so great why deal with a gate cap and small airport when they could have zero restrictions and as many gates as they could ever want at DFW?

WN's NEVER going to DFW and put up with the significant delays experienced there, or to help subsidize the significant airport expenses that benefit mainly AA.

I completely disagree with this. The delays at DFW aren’t really a factor in WN’s decision making process on whether to service an Airport anymore. Look no further than ATL, LGA, EWR, etc. I think WN will go to DFW (or at least threaten to) in 2024 if the Wright Restrictions on the 20 Gate cap are still in place at DAL. They will probably also want a decent number of gates when they do open DFW and will use DFW as a connection hub as well as to try and develop new markets. DFW can be used for connections and DAL can be used for O&D. This is exactly what WN is doing in MDW and STL. Route O&D over MDW and connections over STL. WN will have no problem doing just this when the time comes and they are no longer required to give up gates at DAL to serve DFW.

Oh, please. Delays at DFW are a big factor. At DFW I never have less than 15 minutes of taxi time and then that's if I'm not stuck behind 20 other departures. I almost never spend more then 5 minutes taxiing at DAL - and that's only if wx moves in.

WN can treat Dallas/Ft Worth the way it does LA - a bunch of O&D facilities with DAL as it's pseudo hub. McKinney and Alliance would rock DFW and AA to their respective cores.

bob75013 wrote:

SWADawg wrote:

bob75013 wrote:

i

WN's NEVER going to DFW and put up with the significant delays experienced there, or to help subsidize the significant airport expenses that benefit mainly AA.

I completely disagree with this. The delays at DFW aren’t really a factor in WN’s decision making process on whether to service an Airport anymore. Look no further than ATL, LGA, EWR, etc. I think WN will go to DFW (or at least threaten to) in 2024 if the Wright Restrictions on the 20 Gate cap are still in place at DAL. They will probably also want a decent number of gates when they do open DFW and will use DFW as a connection hub as well as to try and develop new markets. DFW can be used for connections and DAL can be used for O&D. This is exactly what WN is doing in MDW and STL. Route O&D over MDW and connections over STL. WN will have no problem doing just this when the time comes and they are no longer required to give up gates at DAL to serve DFW.

Oh, please. Delays at DFW are a big factor. At DFW I never have less than 15 minutes of taxi time and then that's if I'm not stuck behind 20 other departures. I almost never spend more then 5 minutes taxiing at DAL - and that's only if wx moves in.

WN can treat Dallas/Ft Worth the way it does LA - a bunch of O&D facilities with DAL as it's pseudo hub. McKinney and Alliance would rock DFW and AA to their respective cores.

While I agree with your view on McKinney and Alliance as being good alternatives to DFW. WN isn’t the same Airline that is only interested in secondary Airports anymore. That changed the day they acquired FL and made ATL a large WN operation overnight. Remember, when DFW opened, WN was a VERY small Airline that would have been crushed operating out of the then new DFW. With a fleet size of 750 Airplanes by year end. WN is no longer that Airline. Trust me when I say that a 15 minute vs a 5 minute taxi is not going to deter WN from opening up DFW if they determine that that is the only viable way of growing their Metroplex operations.

SWADawg wrote:

bob75013 wrote:

SWADawg wrote:

I completely disagree with this. The delays at DFW aren’t really a factor in WN’s decision making process on whether to service an Airport anymore. Look no further than ATL, LGA, EWR, etc. I think WN will go to DFW (or at least threaten to) in 2024 if the Wright Restrictions on the 20 Gate cap are still in place at DAL. They will probably also want a decent number of gates when they do open DFW and will use DFW as a connection hub as well as to try and develop new markets. DFW can be used for connections and DAL can be used for O&D. This is exactly what WN is doing in MDW and STL. Route O&D over MDW and connections over STL. WN will have no problem doing just this when the time comes and they are no longer required to give up gates at DAL to serve DFW.

Oh, please. Delays at DFW are a big factor. At DFW I never have less than 15 minutes of taxi time and then that's if I'm not stuck behind 20 other departures. I almost never spend more then 5 minutes taxiing at DAL - and that's only if wx moves in.

WN can treat Dallas/Ft Worth the way it does LA - a bunch of O&D facilities with DAL as it's pseudo hub. McKinney and Alliance would rock DFW and AA to their respective cores.

While I agree with your view on McKinney and Alliance as being good alternatives to DFW. WN isn’t the same Airline that is only interested in secondary Airports anymore. That changed the day they acquired FL and made ATL a large WN operation overnight. Remember, when DFW opened, WN was a VERY small Airline that would have been crushed operating out of the then new DFW. With a fleet size of 750 Airplanes by year end. WN is no longer that Airline. Trust me when I say that a 15 minute vs a 5 minute taxi is not going to deter WN from opening up DFW if they determine that that is the only viable way of growing their Metroplex operations.

Hence forcing them to surrender a gate at DAL. They won't do it.

SWADawg wrote:

bob75013 wrote:

SWADawg wrote:

I completely disagree with this. The delays at DFW aren’t really a factor in WN’s decision making process on whether to service an Airport anymore. Look no further than ATL, LGA, EWR, etc. I think WN will go to DFW (or at least threaten to) in 2024 if the Wright Restrictions on the 20 Gate cap are still in place at DAL. They will probably also want a decent number of gates when they do open DFW and will use DFW as a connection hub as well as to try and develop new markets. DFW can be used for connections and DAL can be used for O&D. This is exactly what WN is doing in MDW and STL. Route O&D over MDW and connections over STL. WN will have no problem doing just this when the time comes and they are no longer required to give up gates at DAL to serve DFW.

Oh, please. Delays at DFW are a big factor. At DFW I never have less than 15 minutes of taxi time and then that's if I'm not stuck behind 20 other departures. I almost never spend more then 5 minutes taxiing at DAL - and that's only if wx moves in.

WN can treat Dallas/Ft Worth the way it does LA - a bunch of O&D facilities with DAL as it's pseudo hub. McKinney and Alliance would rock DFW and AA to their respective cores.

While I agree with your view on McKinney and Alliance as being good alternatives to DFW. WN isn’t the same Airline that is only interested in secondary Airports anymore. That changed the day they acquired FL and made ATL a large WN operation overnight. Remember, when DFW opened, WN was a VERY small Airline that would have been crushed operating out of the then new DFW. With a fleet size of 750 Airplanes by year end. WN is no longer that Airline. Trust me when I say that a 15 minute vs a 5 minute taxi is not going to deter WN from opening up DFW if they determine that that is the only viable way of growing their Metroplex operations.

The point is DFW is not the only viable way of WN growing metroplex operations.

evank516 wrote:

SWADawg wrote:

bob75013 wrote:

Oh, please. Delays at DFW are a big factor. At DFW I never have less than 15 minutes of taxi time and then that's if I'm not stuck behind 20 other departures. I almost never spend more then 5 minutes taxiing at DAL - and that's only if wx moves in.

WN can treat Dallas/Ft Worth the way it does LA - a bunch of O&D facilities with DAL as it's pseudo hub. McKinney and Alliance would rock DFW and AA to their respective cores.

While I agree with your view on McKinney and Alliance as being good alternatives to DFW. WN isn’t the same Airline that is only interested in secondary Airports anymore. That changed the day they acquired FL and made ATL a large WN operation overnight. Remember, when DFW opened, WN was a VERY small Airline that would have been crushed operating out of the then new DFW. With a fleet size of 750 Airplanes by year end. WN is no longer that Airline. Trust me when I say that a 15 minute vs a 5 minute taxi is not going to deter WN from opening up DFW if they determine that that is the only viable way of growing their Metroplex operations.

Hence forcing them to surrender a gate at DAL. They won't do it.

For about the 1000th time on airliners.net, WN is free of the gate surrender provision starting in 2024.

par13del wrote:

Big question would be what would WN offer at DFW different from AA if they decided to have a presence of any size?
Cost factors will be the same, quick turns will be minimal based on size, the vaunted WN productivity may be the only differentiating factor, would that be enough to build DFW as a replacement or compliment to DAL?
With the larger 737's in house, they may be looking at some consolidation, my thought is Hobby and DAL, no DFW. New terminal investment has to be recouped, however, if the traffic does not pick up plans will have to change, 2024 is still a few years away.

A new terminal could be built for WN at DFW north of Terminal B where the Express North parking is currently located, and constructing a new terminal in this location would provide the following advantages:

• A new terminal in this location is adjacent to runways 18L and 18R at DFW, and as such would give WN easy access to runways 18L and 18R. The easy access to runways 18L and 18R provided by a new terminal at this location would make it easier for WN to do a quick turnaround at DFW when flights are departing from DFW in the southbound direction.
• A new terminal in this location would also give WN easy access to the bridge that connects the west side of DFW airport to runways 17R, 17C, and 13L.
• There are currently fewer gates on the west side of DFW than there are on the east side of DFW, even though this would change if Terminal F is constructed at DFW.
• There are less impacts to the operations of AA, NK, and other airlines at DFW if WN is accommodated in a newly constructed terminal in this location than would be the case if WN is accommodated in any of the existing terminals at DFW.

If a new terminal is constructed in this location and if WN decides not to operate out of a newly constructed terminal in this location, other airlines could be accommodated out of a new terminal constructed in this location, including B6, F9, NK, SY, and UA.

DFW is also much closer to Downtown Fort Worth than DAL is, and there are over 2 million Metroplex residents who live closer to DFW than to DAL. WN also has a large customer base within the DFW Metroplex, even in portions of the Metroplex that are closer to DFW International Airport. There is also significant demand for WN service in the DFW Metroplex with over 14 million passengers who fly to, from, or through DAL on WN every year.

WN also serves CLT, LAX, LGA, PHL, PHX, and DCA, all of which are hubs for AA and all of which currently have nonstop service to DAL on WN. WN insists on serving DAL instead of DFW, even with the restrictions that WN has been subject to at DAL under the Wright Amendment, 5-party agreement, and WARA, because WN has its headquarters at DAL and because WN has always been at DAL since it began operations almost 47 years ago.

As for the proposal I think it violates the agreement. The City of Dallas has the right to make room for airlines to share gates from what I read. I can't load it right now, but it seems they can force airlines to share.

evank516 wrote:

As for the proposal I think it violates the agreement. The City of Dallas has the right to make room for airlines to share gates from what I read. I can't load it right now, but it seems they can force airlines to share.

The 5-party agreement agreed to by the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, American Airlines, Southwest Airlines, and the DFW International Airport Board can be found at http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/Wright_Amend_Agreement061506.pdf. The final contract signed by these 5 parties can be found at http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/dal_ResolveWrightAmendment.pdf.

Here is the link to a post where I quoted the relevant provisions of the 5-party agreement and the WARA that gives the City the Dallas the authority to require WN, UA, and AA to share gates with other carriers if necessary: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1393569&start=100#p20392881.

Unless I am mistaken, the entire purpose of the Wright Amendment was to protect the viability of the then-new DFW Airport. Fort Worth, and its Congessman Jim Wright, were afraid that the larger population of Dallas would prefer Love Field. The had watched Amon Carter Field languish, after all.
But half a century later, DFW needs no help. It thrives on both O and D and connecting traffic.
Why not let people use DAL if it is closer, and develop as many gates as the market will support? End the stupidity.

SFOThinker wrote:

Unless I am mistaken, the entire purpose of the Wright Amendment was to protect the viability of the then-new DFW Airport. Fort Worth, and its Congessman Jim Wright, were afraid that the larger population of Dallas would prefer Love Field. The had watched Amon Carter Field languish, after all.
But half a century later, DFW needs no help. It thrives on both O and D and connecting traffic.
Why not let people use DAL if it is closer, and develop as many gates as the market will support? End the stupidity.

This is really what should happen. Multiple metro areas function very well with more than one major airport.

I haven't read what is the plan that Dallas has?

evank516 wrote:

SFOThinker wrote:

Unless I am mistaken, the entire purpose of the Wright Amendment was to protect the viability of the then-new DFW Airport. Fort Worth, and its Congessman Jim Wright, were afraid that the larger population of Dallas would prefer Love Field. The had watched Amon Carter Field languish, after all.
But half a century later, DFW needs no help. It thrives on both O and D and connecting traffic.
Why not let people use DAL if it is closer, and develop as many gates as the market will support? End the stupidity.

This is really what should happen. Multiple metro areas function very well with more than one major airport.

I agree with your point, and demand for AA service out of DFW is still increasing, even with the repeal of the Wright Amendment. There are also more passengers flying in and out of DFW today than was the case 12 years ago.

In addition to DAL, SNA and BUR both have gate limits, but the gate limits at SNA and BUR are less of an issue at these two airports since WN also operates out of LAX, ONT, and LGB, since WN has its 8th largest focus city at LAX, and since WN has room to further expand at ONT. WN is also subject to slot restrictions at LGB, LGA, SNA, and DCA that restrict the number of flights that WN can do out of these 4 airports, but the slot restrictions at DCA are less of an problem for WN with WN's BWI focus city being located in between Washington, DC and Baltimore.

WN is able to successfully serve more than just LAX in Greater Los Angeles, more than just OAK in the San Francisco Bay Area, more than just BWI in the Baltimore/Washington Region, and more than just LGA in the NYC metro area. WN also will be serving PAE in Greater Seattle in addition to SEA when the new terminal opens at PAE.

WN also used to serve IAH in Greater Houston in addition to IAH, but WN pulled out of IAH and expanded at HOU. Why does WN insist on serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex if it serves more than 1 airport in Greater Los Angeles, the San Francisco Bay Area, the NYC Metropolitan Area, and the Baltimore/Washington Region and if WN also plans on serving more than 1 airport in Greater Seattle (which is a smaller market than the DFW Metroplex)?

SFOThinker wrote:

Unless I am mistaken, the entire purpose of the Wright Amendment was to protect the viability of the then-new DFW Airport. Fort Worth, and its Congessman Jim Wright, were afraid that the larger population of Dallas would prefer Love Field. The had watched Amon Carter Field languish, after all.
But half a century later, DFW needs no help. It thrives on both O and D and connecting traffic.
Why not let people use DAL if it is closer, and develop as many gates as the market will support? End the stupidity.

This is absolutely what should happen. I know that WN would prefer the same setup at DAL as they have at HOU. They would by default probably still have the majority of the gates, but, any Airline that wanted to fly from DAL would be able to be accommodated. Win, win as far as I’m concerned. Unfortunately, it will take an act of Congress to change the rules and neither WN nor AA are allowed to lobby for that change since they are apart of the five party agreement. I would love to see DL, UA, B6, and AS all lobby Congress and get WA2 thrown out. Unfortunately, none of these other Airlines has felt compelled to act, so we have the artificial restrictions we have.

SWADawg wrote:

This is absolutely what should happen. I know that WN would prefer the same setup at DAL as they have at HOU. They would by default probably still have the majority of the gates, but, any Airline that wanted to fly from DAL would be able to be accommodated. Win, win as far as I’m concerned. Unfortunately, it will take an act of Congress to change the rules and neither WN nor AA are allowed to lobby for that change since they are apart of the five party agreement. I would love to see DL, UA, B6, and AS all lobby Congress and get WA2 thrown out. Unfortunately, none of these other Airlines has felt compelled to act, so we have the artificial restrictions we have.

WN and AA can propose changes to the 5-party agreement, but those proposed changes would have to be approved by all 5 parties to the 5-party agreement in writing to the agreement for the changes to take effect. In addition, WN and AA would be allowed to lobby for changes to the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 if the 5-party agreement is amended and if the proposed legislation that WN and AA are lobbying for is permitted under the amended 5-party agreement.

ODwyerPW wrote:

I haven't read what is the plan that Dallas has?

The answer is in the very first post of this thread.

In a nutshell, Dallas would grant a carrier a 3 year temporary authority to serve Love Field. The "plan" does not specify where it plans to get the gate space to do that -- which essentially means Dallas hasno plan at all.

Here is what the gate usage was like at DAL yesterday:
Gate 1 (WN) - 10 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 2 (WN) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 3 (WN) - 10 departures, 9 arrivals
Gate 4 (WN) - 11 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 5 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 6 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 7 (WN) - 8 departures, 9 arrivals
Gate 8 (WN) - 9 departures, 7 arrivals
Gate 9 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 10 (WN) - 9 departures, 10 arrivals
Gate 11 (AS) - 9 departures, 7 arrivals
Gate 12 (WN) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 13 (AS) - 9 departures, 10 arrivals
Gate 14 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 15 (WN/DL) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals (7 departures on WN, 5 departures on DL, 7 arrivals on WN, 5 arrivals on DL)
Gate 16 (WN) - 9 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 17 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 18 (WN) - 9 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 19 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 20 (WN) - 11 departures, 12 arrivals

WN cancelled 6 flights to DAL and 6 flights from DAL yesterday. Some of the gates at DAL saw fewer flights than is usually the case yesterday due to WN flight cancellations.

There is enough room at DAL to permanently accommodate DL at DAL, and there is likely enough room to accommodate 180 WN departures a day and at least 10 DL departures a day out of the 18 gates at DAL that are currently used by WN. WN can move more of its flights to the 16 preferential-use gates that are directly leased to WN at DAL. There will also be room for DL and new entrants to do a few flights out of the AS gates at DAL once AS discontinues DAL-LGA and DAL-DCA nonstop service.

bob75013 wrote:

ODwyerPW wrote:

I haven't read what is the plan that Dallas has?

The answer is in the very first post of this thread.

In a nutshell, Dallas would grant a carrier a 3 year temporary authority to serve Love Field. The "plan" does not specify where it plans to get the gate space to do that -- which essentially means Dallas hasno plan at all.

I mistyped.. I meant to say I havent seen much discussion on the proposal... I resd the article and several others on the subject.. Quite a soap opera..

jplatts wrote:

Here is what the gate usage was like at DAL yesterday:
Gate 1 (WN) - 10 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 2 (WN) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 3 (WN) - 10 departures, 9 arrivals
Gate 4 (WN) - 11 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 5 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 6 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 7 (WN) - 8 departures, 9 arrivals
Gate 8 (WN) - 9 departures, 7 arrivals
Gate 9 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 10 (WN) - 9 departures, 10 arrivals
Gate 11 (AS) - 9 departures, 7 arrivals
Gate 12 (WN) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 13 (AS) - 9 departures, 10 arrivals
Gate 14 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 15 (WN/DL) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals (7 departures on WN, 5 departures on DL, 7 arrivals on WN, 5 arrivals on DL)
Gate 16 (WN) - 9 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 17 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 18 (WN) - 9 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 19 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 20 (WN) - 11 departures, 12 arrivals

WN cancelled 6 flights to DAL and 6 flights from DAL yesterday. Some of the gates at DAL saw fewer flights than is usually the case yesterday due to WN flight cancellations.

There is enough room at DAL to permanently accommodate DL at DAL, and there is likely enough room to accommodate 180 WN departures a day and at least 10 DL departures a day out of the 18 gates at DAL that are currently used by WN. WN can move more of its flights to the 16 preferential-use gates that are directly leased to WN at DAL. There will also be room for DL and new entrants to do a few flights out of the AS gates at DAL once AS discontinues DAL-LGA and DAL-DCA nonstop service.

Keep in mind that some of those flights are on 175 seat -800 series aircraft which require longer turn times than the 737-700. So WN might not be able to get as many flights/turns per gate as you think. Some -800 flights are turned in as short as 45 minutes, but that’s pushing it. And at a station as large as DAL where there is now an increase in connecting traffic than prior to the repeal of the WA, the turn times on -800 flights might be greater than 45 minutes.

airplaneboy wrote:

Keep in mind that some of those flights are on 175 seat -800 series aircraft which require longer turn times than the 737-700. So WN might not be able to get as many flights/turns per gate as you think. Some -800 flights are turned in as short as 45 minutes, but that’s pushing it. And at a station as large as DAL where there is now an increase in connecting traffic than prior to the repeal of the WA, the turn times on -800 flights might be greater than 45 minutes.

Good point, even though one of the DL DAL-ATL nonstop flights is on an Airbus A320 (which has more seats than the WN 737-700s but fewer seats than the WN 737-800s/MAX 8s). There was also an early morning departure to DEN from DAL out of Gate 15 on a 737-800 plane on Thursday.

WN does an average of 11 to 12 domestic departures per gate per day out of LAX out of only 11 gates, and 31 of the flights (25% of the domestic departures) out of LAX are on 737-800 or 737 MAX 8 planes. WN also does 90 domestic departures a day out of only 8 gates at SJC, and 14 of these 90 flights (15% of the domestic departures) out of SJC are on 737-800 or 737 MAX 8 planes.

WN probably does have room to do an average of 11 departures per gate per day out of DAL with some 737-800's in the mix since WN is able to squeeze in more than 10 flights per gate per day out of LAX and SJC with 737-800's and 737 MAX 8's in the mix. WN will also be squeezing in nonstop flights to Hawaii on ETOPS 737-800's out of SJC when it starts service to Hawaii.

Approximately 88% of the WN nonstop flights out of DAL are to destinations other than DL hubs or focus cities, and 40% of these flights (which constitute around 35% of the total number of WN nonstop flights out of DAL) are to destinations that weren't served nonstop from DAL prior to the repeal of the Wright Amendment. WN also currently operates 26 daily nonstops from DAL to destinations that are not in the markets of the hubs or focus cities of AA, DL, and UA and that were not served nonstop from DAL prior to the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and these 26 daily nonstops constitute 14% of the total number of WN nonstop flights out of DAL.

Approximately 80% of the travel that either originates or ends at DAL is from destinations outside of the markets of DL's hub and focus city airports. While there are some passengers who connect onto DL's ATL-DAL nonstops from East Coast destinations other than ATL, most of the travel between DAL and the East Coast is on WN. WN is also the preferred airline for the majority of the passengers who are traveling to DAL from East Coast destinations outside of ATL, BOS, NYC, and RDU that are served by WN.

If you asked 100 Dallas residents what they think, the vast majority of them would say they'd prefer the Wright Amendment just go away, that any airline that wants to fly into DAL should be allowed to do it, and they should add another 12 or so gates (don't forget when this deal came about, they bulldozed the old Legend Terminal on Lemmon Avenue, and at one time DAL had over 40 gates). This airport has previously handled multiple widebodies, including 747's on American, Braniff, and Delta, as well as DC10's and L1011's There's room for more and Southwest doesn't need to be protected from their competition anymore. They compete well at a number of major airports, including LAX, DCA, SAN, PHX, LGA, etc. And yes, DAL and DFW do serve the same metropolitan area, but that's no different than any other city with more than one airport - think LGA and JFK, think ORD and MDW. There's plenty of room, and the Dallas area (I say "Dallas" because it is by a quantum degree larger than Fort Worth, and there are now a number of suburbs with well over 100,000 residents as well in Collin, Dallas, and Tarrant Counties, for a population of well over 4 million people, who tend to travel. DFW has a large number of O&D passengers; the AA hub at DFW adds to that, and Southwest's operation at Love Field even more. This area can support two airports and there is no valid reason to provide a monopoly at one to Southwest.

There was an article titled "Southwest, Delta lash out at one another over use of Dallas Love Field gates" that was published in the Dallas Business Journal on Monday, and that article can be found at https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2018/05/21/southwest-delta-love-field.html.

An article titled "Southwest, Delta, American and more object to Dallas' Love Field gate plan" was published on the Dallas Morning News website today, and that article can be found at https://www.dallasnews.com/business/love-field/2018/05/25/southwest-delta-american-object-dallas-love-field-gate-plan.

The article states that WN, DL, AA, UA, and AS all object to the City of Dallas's proposal regarding gate usage at DAL. AA objects to the City of Dallas's proposal regarding the gates at DAL since AA claims that that the proposal would illegally prevent AA from being accommodated at DAL in the future. DL objects to the City of Dallas's proposal regarding the gates at DAL since DL claims that the proposal would exclude competition at DAL.

While the Department of Justice and the US District Court for the District of Columbia had ordered AA to give up its 2 gates at DAL in 2014, AA can regain access to these 2 gates on April 26, 2024. AA originally planned on resuming service out of DAL subsequent to the repeal of the Wright Amendment, but those plans were changed when AA was required to give up its 2 gates at DAL.

The City of Dallas can require WN to share any gate that it uses at DAL if necessary to accommodate other carriers under the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006. AA, WN, and the City of Dallas all agreed to require WN and AA to share gates at DAL with other carriers if necessary when the 5-party agreement was agreed to back in 2006.

While DAL is currently subject to the 20-gate limit under the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, the 5-party agreement can be changed to allow expansion of DAL beyond 20 gates if AA, WN, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, and the DFW International Airport Board agree to the proposed changes in writing and if Congress enacts legislation allowing expansion of DAL beyond 20 gates.

How should the DAL gate controversy be resolved?

jplatts wrote:

How should the DAL gate controversy be resolved?

By repealing the Wright Amendment.

How will it be resolved, if ever? Who knows.

Allow commercial flights out of the Collin County Airport in McKinney.

Majority of the area's growth is up there in big sky country.

Love Field is a landlocked in town airport like Midway that really can't grown beyond it's current size.

Agreed. The Wright Amendment needs to be gone forever, and the number of gates at DAL increased to meet whatever the demand is for gates. WN should be able to fly out of both DAL and DFW without penalty, and the airlines currently serving DFW should be allowed to get gates at DAL if they want, without penalty. Additionally, any new entrant wanting to serve only DAL or only DFW should be accommodated. in a deregulated marketplace (which is what we are saying we have), that is the sensible way to handle this.

superjeff wrote:

Agreed. The Wright Amendment needs to be gone forever ......... . that is the sensible way to handle this.

This makes way too much sense ... which means it won't happen

Sooner787 wrote:

Allow commercial flights out of the Collin County Airport in McKinney.

Majority of the area's growth is up there in big sky country.

Love Field is a landlocked in town airport like Midway that really can't grown beyond it's current size.

DAL can easily grow beyond its current size of 20 gates. Remember that the airport use to be the principle airport for the region with ~70 gates until DFW opened. It is artificially being restrained far below its max capacity. MDW has double the gates of DFW with more passengers and aircraft movements while having half the land area of DAL.

Polot wrote:

Sooner787 wrote:

Allow commercial flights out of the Collin County Airport in McKinney.

Majority of the area's growth is up there in big sky country.

Love Field is a landlocked in town airport like Midway that really can't grown beyond it's current size.

DAL can easily grow beyond its current size of 20 gates. Remember that the airport use to be the principle airport for the region with ~70 gates until DFW opened. It is artificially being restrained far below its max capacity. MDW has double the gates of DFW with more passengers and aircraft movements while having half the land area of DAL.

City fathers in Ft Worth and AA execs won't agree to more gates at Love Field, at least not within my lifetime.

Sooner787 wrote:

Polot wrote:

Sooner787 wrote:

Allow commercial flights out of the Collin County Airport in McKinney.

Majority of the area's growth is up there in big sky country.

Love Field is a landlocked in town airport like Midway that really can't grown beyond it's current size.

DAL can easily grow beyond its current size of 20 gates. Remember that the airport use to be the principle airport for the region with ~70 gates until DFW opened. It is artificially being restrained far below its max capacity. MDW has double the gates of DFW with more passengers and aircraft movements while having half the land area of DAL.

City fathers in Ft Worth and AA execs won't agree to more gates at Love Field, at least not within my lifetime.

I agree it is unlikely, but that is entirely different than saying DAL is a landlocked in town airport like MDW unable to grow beyond its current size. DAL is easily able to grow beyond its current size. It is just legally prevented from doing so. A completely different scenario than airports like MDW or LGA.

Polot wrote:

Sooner787 wrote:

Allow commercial flights out of the Collin County Airport in McKinney.

Majority of the area's growth is up there in big sky country.

Love Field is a landlocked in town airport like Midway that really can't grown beyond it's current size.

DAL can easily grow beyond its current size of 20 gates. Remember that the airport use to be the principle airport for the region with ~70 gates until DFW opened. It is artificially being restrained far below its max capacity. MDW has double the gates of DFW with more passengers and aircraft movements while having half the land area of DAL.

The only direction the terminal can be expanded is west and that is a big if. It would require the closing of Runway 18/36 and the reloacation of taxiways etc. in order to get aircraft to both of the parallel runways. They may also have to remove an FBO that is west of the terminal and the aircraft engine runup area. Many people who have made comments on the terminal expansion in this forum have never been to Love Field or even taken a look of the whole area of the present terminal on an aerial map and know nothing about the logistics involved.

freakyrat wrote:

Polot wrote:

Sooner787 wrote:

Allow commercial flights out of the Collin County Airport in McKinney.

Majority of the area's growth is up there in big sky country.

Love Field is a landlocked in town airport like Midway that really can't grown beyond it's current size.

DAL can easily grow beyond its current size of 20 gates. Remember that the airport use to be the principle airport for the region with ~70 gates until DFW opened. It is artificially being restrained far below its max capacity. MDW has double the gates of DFW with more passengers and aircraft movements while having half the land area of DAL.

The only direction the terminal can be expanded is west and that is a big if. It would require the closing of Runway 18/36 and the reloacation of taxiways etc. in order to get aircraft to both of the parallel runways. They may also have to remove an FBO that is west of the terminal and the aircraft engine runup area. Many people who have made comments on the terminal expansion in this forum have never been to Love Field or even taken a look of the whole area of the present terminal on an aerial map and know nothing about the logistics involved.

You know you could also add new terminals if DAL was not gate constrained, you don’t have to just expand the current one. Obviously there would need to be demolition and rework of structures and parking lots currently standing, but it could be done. Already SE of the main terminal is part of the old terminal with 4 jetbridges still attached.

Polot wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Polot wrote:

DAL can easily grow beyond its current size of 20 gates. Remember that the airport use to be the principle airport for the region with ~70 gates until DFW opened. It is artificially being restrained far below its max capacity. MDW has double the gates of DFW with more passengers and aircraft movements while having half the land area of DAL.

The only direction the terminal can be expanded is west and that is a big if. It would require the closing of Runway 18/36 and the reloacation of taxiways etc. in order to get aircraft to both of the parallel runways. They may also have to remove an FBO that is west of the terminal and the aircraft engine runup area. Many people who have made comments on the terminal expansion in this forum have never been to Love Field or even taken a look of the whole area of the present terminal on an aerial map and know nothing about the logistics involved.

You know you could also add new terminals if DAL was not gate constrained, you don’t have to just expand the current one. Obviously there would need to be demolition and rework of structures and parking lots currently standing, but it could be done. Already SE of the main terminal is part of the old terminal with 4 jetbridges still attached.

Those old gates and concourse were leveled a couple years ago to make room for a new parking structure, which is close to completion.

freakyrat wrote:

Polot wrote:

Sooner787 wrote:

Allow commercial flights out of the Collin County Airport in McKinney.

Majority of the area's growth is up there in big sky country.

Love Field is a landlocked in town airport like Midway that really can't grown beyond it's current size.

DAL can easily grow beyond its current size of 20 gates. Remember that the airport use to be the principle airport for the region with ~70 gates until DFW opened. It is artificially being restrained far below its max capacity. MDW has double the gates of DFW with more passengers and aircraft movements while having half the land area of DAL.

The only direction the terminal can be expanded is west and that is a big if. It would require the closing of Runway 18/36 and the reloacation of taxiways etc. in order to get aircraft to both of the parallel runways. They may also have to remove an FBO that is west of the terminal and the aircraft engine runup area. Many people who have made comments on the terminal expansion in this forum have never been to Love Field or even taken a look of the whole area of the present terminal on an aerial map and know nothing about the logistics involved.

Runway 18/36 is already closed. It's not in use, so that would be no big deal.

nagpaw wrote:

DL747400 wrote:

No realistic solution should ever include as a potential outcome the possibility that the gate in question could be returned to WN, period.

WN should never be allowed to grow at DAL beyond their current gate footprint.

Absolutely, and well said! And Delta should never be allowed a single new gate beyond their current footprint in Atlanta as well.

My point is that your opinion seems grounded solely in emotion, understandable based on your username. Can you back up your opinion with some insight? I honestly don’t know all the details of this disagreement, and would love to hear your opinion.

The difference of course is there are plenty of gates at ATL for others, while that is not the case at DAL. Its about competitive access and WN wants none.

jplatts wrote:

Here is what the gate usage was like at DAL yesterday:
Gate 1 (WN) - 10 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 2 (WN) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 3 (WN) - 10 departures, 9 arrivals
Gate 4 (WN) - 11 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 5 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 6 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 7 (WN) - 8 departures, 9 arrivals
Gate 8 (WN) - 9 departures, 7 arrivals
Gate 9 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 10 (WN) - 9 departures, 10 arrivals
Gate 11 (AS) - 9 departures, 7 arrivals
Gate 12 (WN) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 13 (AS) - 9 departures, 10 arrivals
Gate 14 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 15 (WN/DL) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals (7 departures on WN, 5 departures on DL, 7 arrivals on WN, 5 arrivals on DL)
Gate 16 (WN) - 9 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 17 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 18 (WN) - 9 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 19 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 20 (WN) - 11 departures, 12 arrivals

WN cancelled 6 flights to DAL and 6 flights from DAL yesterday. Some of the gates at DAL saw fewer flights than is usually the case yesterday due to WN flight cancellations.

There is enough room at DAL to permanently accommodate DL at DAL, and there is likely enough room to accommodate 180 WN departures a day and at least 10 DL departures a day out of the 18 gates at DAL that are currently used by WN. WN can move more of its flights to the 16 preferential-use gates that are directly leased to WN at DAL. There will also be room for DL and new entrants to do a few flights out of the AS gates at DAL once AS discontinues DAL-LGA and DAL-DCA nonstop service.

Thank you for posting this information. I was looking high and low to find the actual DAL carrier gate assignments.

The WN Preferential use Gates.. Would those be 1-10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 and 19?
Does AS always use 11 and 13?
Does DL always share 15 with WN, a former UA gate?
Is 17 the other former UA gate?

At this point, if DL gets locked out, expect an anti-trust lawsuit against DAL. The Justice Department openly stated that they had concerns about the 20 gate cap when the Wright Amendment was overhauled in 2006.

What effect do DAL arrivals/departures have on the flow at DFW? CJPark I believe in the past has cited that as a reason why DAL needed to be closed, though I might not be recalling that correctly.

freakyrat wrote:

The only direction the terminal can be expanded is west and that is a big if. It would require the closing of Runway 18/36 and the reloacation of taxiways etc. in order to get aircraft to both of the parallel runways. They may also have to remove an FBO that is west of the terminal and the aircraft engine runup area. Many people who have made comments on the terminal expansion in this forum have never been to Love Field or even taken a look of the whole area of the present terminal on an aerial map and know nothing about the logistics involved.

Now that's not true.

1) There's room for maybe 4-5 gates that would be in the footprint of the demolished AA/CO gates -- basically on the east wall of the new parking garage.
2) There's room for 3-5 gates where gates 41-43 were situated on the old concourse
3) Since the AP plans to put all rent car companies in a common off AP building, there's room for maybe 10 gates on current rent car company land
4)Then there's the entire east side of the AP, too.

Oh, and I'm real familiar with Love Field having used it continually since March, 1978.

ODwyerPW wrote:

jplatts wrote:

Here is what the gate usage was like at DAL yesterday:
Gate 1 (WN) - 10 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 2 (WN) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 3 (WN) - 10 departures, 9 arrivals
Gate 4 (WN) - 11 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 5 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 6 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 7 (WN) - 8 departures, 9 arrivals
Gate 8 (WN) - 9 departures, 7 arrivals
Gate 9 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 10 (WN) - 9 departures, 10 arrivals
Gate 11 (AS) - 9 departures, 7 arrivals
Gate 12 (WN) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals
Gate 13 (AS) - 9 departures, 10 arrivals
Gate 14 (WN) - 11 departures, 11 arrivals
Gate 15 (WN/DL) - 12 departures, 12 arrivals (7 departures on WN, 5 departures on DL, 7 arrivals on WN, 5 arrivals on DL)
Gate 16 (WN) - 9 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 17 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 18 (WN) - 9 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 19 (WN) - 8 departures, 8 arrivals
Gate 20 (WN) - 11 departures, 12 arrivals

WN cancelled 6 flights to DAL and 6 flights from DAL yesterday. Some of the gates at DAL saw fewer flights than is usually the case yesterday due to WN flight cancellations.

There is enough room at DAL to permanently accommodate DL at DAL, and there is likely enough room to accommodate 180 WN departures a day and at least 10 DL departures a day out of the 18 gates at DAL that are currently used by WN. WN can move more of its flights to the 16 preferential-use gates that are directly leased to WN at DAL. There will also be room for DL and new entrants to do a few flights out of the AS gates at DAL once AS discontinues DAL-LGA and DAL-DCA nonstop service.

Thank you for posting this information. I was looking high and low to find the actual DAL carrier gate assignments.

The WN Preferential use Gates.. Would those be 1-10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 and 19?
Does AS always use 11 and 13?
Does DL always share 15 with WN, a former UA gate?
Is 17 the other former UA gate?

WN has control over all Gates except 11 and 13 which are AS gates and not used by anyone else. WN originally had 16 gates but had a sneaky deal with UA to sublease Gates 15 and 17 from UA. With DL sharing the gates with UA before the lease, DL threw a fit and went to court and WN is now legally required by Judge order to share Gate 15 with DL until the situation can get resolved.

bob75013 wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

The only direction the terminal can be expanded is west and that is a big if. It would require the closing of Runway 18/36 and the reloacation of taxiways etc. in order to get aircraft to both of the parallel runways. They may also have to remove an FBO that is west of the terminal and the aircraft engine runup area. Many people who have made comments on the terminal expansion in this forum have never been to Love Field or even taken a look of the whole area of the present terminal on an aerial map and know nothing about the logistics involved.

Now that's not true.

1) There's room for maybe 4-5 gates that would be in the footprint of the demolished AA/CO gates -- basically on the east wall of the new parking garage.
2) There's room for 3-5 gates where gates 41-43 were situated on the old concourse
3) Since the AP plans to put all rent car companies in a common off AP building, there's room for maybe 10 gates on current rent car company land
4)Then there's the entire east side of the AP, too.

Oh, and I'm real familiar with Love Field having used it continually since March, 1978.

They can probably squeeze in 1-2 more gates in the current concourse as there is quite a bit of room between gates at the end of the concourse.

freakyrat wrote:

Polot wrote:

Sooner787 wrote:

Allow commercial flights out of the Collin County Airport in McKinney.

Majority of the area's growth is up there in big sky country.

Love Field is a landlocked in town airport like Midway that really can't grown beyond it's current size.

DAL can easily grow beyond its current size of 20 gates. Remember that the airport use to be the principle airport for the region with ~70 gates until DFW opened. It is artificially being restrained far below its max capacity. MDW has double the gates of DFW with more passengers and aircraft movements while having half the land area of DAL.

The only direction the terminal can be expanded is west and that is a big if. It would require the closing of Runway 18/36 and the reloacation of taxiways etc. in order to get aircraft to both of the parallel runways. They may also have to remove an FBO that is west of the terminal and the aircraft engine runup area. Many people who have made comments on the terminal expansion in this forum have never been to Love Field or even taken a look of the whole area of the present terminal on an aerial map and know nothing about the logistics involved.

Looking at Google maps, runway 36/18 IS closed. There’s plenty of space west of the terminal. There are also seven hard stands north of the terminal where a satellite could be built. They could even add a few gates on the west side of the main terminal building.

bob75013 wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

The only direction the terminal can be expanded is west and that is a big if. It would require the closing of Runway 18/36 and the reloacation of taxiways etc. in order to get aircraft to both of the parallel runways. They may also have to remove an FBO that is west of the terminal and the aircraft engine runup area. Many people who have made comments on the terminal expansion in this forum have never been to Love Field or even taken a look of the whole area of the present terminal on an aerial map and know nothing about the logistics involved.

Now that's not true.

1) There's room for maybe 4-5 gates that would be in the footprint of the demolished AA/CO gates -- basically on the east wall of the new parking garage.
2) There's room for 3-5 gates where gates 41-43 were situated on the old concourse
3) Since the AP plans to put all rent car companies in a common off AP building, there's room for maybe 10 gates on current rent car company land
4)Then there's the entire east side of the AP, too.

Oh, and I'm real familiar with Love Field having used it continually since March, 1978.

They maybe able to do this but WN has their provisioning building east of the new parking garage plus you also have Gulfstream Aerospace overe there.

As the saying goes "let the market decide". Allow other airlines to serve DAL and see how it turns out.

airplaneboy wrote:

Keep in mind that some of those flights are on 175 seat -800 series aircraft which require longer turn times than the 737-700. So WN might not be able to get as many flights/turns per gate as you think. Some -800 flights are turned in as short as 45 minutes, but that’s pushing it. And at a station as large as DAL where there is now an increase in connecting traffic than prior to the repeal of the WA, the turn times on -800 flights might be greater than 45 minutes.

Is there a unique to WN reason why it takes 45 minutes to turn a one-class 738 at DAL, when in Europe Ryanair turns literally hundreds of one-class 738 flights each day in 25 minutes at airports right across the continent?

jplatts wrote:

An article titled "Southwest, Delta, American and more object to Dallas' Love Field gate plan" was published on the Dallas Morning News website today, and that article can be found at https://www.dallasnews.com/business/love-field/2018/05/25/southwest-delta-american-object-dallas-love-field-gate-plan.

The article states that WN, DL, AA, UA, and AS all object to the City of Dallas's proposal regarding gate usage at DAL. ...

While DAL is currently subject to the 20-gate limit under the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, the 5-party agreement can be changed to allow expansion of DAL beyond 20 gates if AA, WN, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, and the DFW International Airport Board agree to the proposed changes in writing and if Congress enacts legislation allowing expansion of DAL beyond 20 gates.

How should the DAL gate controversy be resolved?

Repel Wright Amendment and build more gates.

5 mins in Photoshop. 23 more gates making a total of 43


10 mins in Photoshop 30 more gates making a total of 53


If they really wanted too, they could build more gates at DAL. They have the space. At 50 gates everyone should be happy at DAL. DFW metro is only growing and growing and we will need more gates at DFW and DAL.

Andy33 wrote:

airplaneboy wrote:

Keep in mind that some of those flights are on 175 seat -800 series aircraft which require longer turn times than the 737-700. So WN might not be able to get as many flights/turns per gate as you think. Some -800 flights are turned in as short as 45 minutes, but that’s pushing it. And at a station as large as DAL where there is now an increase in connecting traffic than prior to the repeal of the WA, the turn times on -800 flights might be greater than 45 minutes.

Is there a unique to WN reason why it takes 45 minutes to turn a one-class 738 at DAL, when in Europe Ryanair turns literally hundreds of one-class 738 flights each day in 25 minutes at airports right across the continent?

They don’t charge for carry-ons, that’s one possible reason. And they don’t charge for checked bags, which also takes time to load and unload. So Southwest probably has more carry on baggage and checked baggage to load compared to Ryanair. Also WN does not normally deplane from both front and rear exits in most cities (minus a handful of exceptions). Doing so would I’m sure help turn flights faster.