So when will WN begin to retire and replace their 73Gs? Some of them are at or approaching 20 years+ old and most of them seem tired. I can tell you IMO I like WN’s 738/MAX 8’s much better.

Would they replace them with the MAX 7 or something else?

Hopefully soon, I agree, the older ones are tired and the ones bringing negative attention to WN.

ADrum23 wrote:

So when will WN begin to retire and replace their 73Gs? Some of them are at or approaching 20 years+ old and most of them seem tired. I can tell you IMO I like WN’s 738/MAX 8’s much better.

Would they replace them with the MAX 7 or something else?

2022. Planned replacements are MAX 7s and MAX 8s. I flew on N719SW last week; it didn't seem "tired" (whatever that means).

“Tired” is a term used here to think that if the cabin is looking worn and ratty, so is the rest of the aircraft... I flew on a three year old A320 once in which the cabin was pretty worn out, guess that plane is “tired” too..

Right now they are taking Max 8's for both growth and replacing capacity lost with the retirement of all 737-300's last year. They are deferring 7 Max deliveries till they start retiring 700's.

WN just increased is MAX8 orders by 40 aircraft 5 due this year by November. 30 of the new 40 additional aircraft will start the retirement process of the 737-700 in January 2019.

Flyguy

WN is more likely to refresh the interior on some of those "tired" planes in the near future. Then you will think they are young and fresh... They periodically do that (most common during a D check).

Have a great day,

2175301 wrote:

WN is more likely to refresh the interior on some of those "tired" planes in the near future. Then you will think they are young and fresh... They periodically do that (most common during a D check).

Have a great day,

Yep, a fresh coat of paint on the outside, and a refresh of the interior and folks will think they're on a "new" plane. I flew on a Delta A-320 shortly after a cabin re-fresh last year and heard a pax behind me say something about it being a "new" plane. LOL.

Tired as in CFM-56 pieces flying all over the place and WN finally running out of luck...come on its pretty obvious this has been going on for some time now, time to put those old birds to rest, the sooner the better

Wayfarer515 wrote:

Tired as in CFM-56 pieces flying all over the place and WN finally running out of luck...come on its pretty obvious this has been going on for some time now, time to put those old birds to rest, the sooner the better

VH-OQA - the QF A380 with uncontained engine failure was 2 years old at the time of incident. G-YMMM, the frame that lost both engines on BA38 was 6 years old at the time. So now what? Scrap everything older than a year?

Let's stop drawing data free conclusions, shall we?

Antarius wrote:

Wayfarer515 wrote:

Tired as in CFM-56 pieces flying all over the place and WN finally running out of luck...come on its pretty obvious this has been going on for some time now, time to put those old birds to rest, the sooner the better

VH-OQA - the QF A380 with uncontained engine failure was 2 years old at the time of incident. G-YMMM, the frame that lost both engines on BA38 was 6 years old at the time. So now what? Scrap everything older than a year?

Let's stop drawing data free conclusions, shall we?

Clearly knowing old Comrade Wayfarer, the whole situation would be fixed when WN puts in their order for Sukhoi Superjets.

Southwest Airlines should just go with the MAX8.

Southwest has something like 500 73G's right now, you can't replace that many frames overnight.

I bet 99% of people here including myself cant tell the difference between a 90s build 73G and a newer 73G that have identical interiors and paint jobs.

TWA772LR wrote:

I bet 99% of people here including myself cant tell the difference between a 90s build 73G and a newer 73G that have identical interiors and paint jobs.

True dat. My wife and I flew a UA 767 a few years ago with a new interior. She thought it was a new plane. I didn't bother getting into it. OTOH I have been on some really shabby planes less than 5 YO.

Bricktop wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

I bet 99% of people here including myself cant tell the difference between a 90s build 73G and a newer 73G that have identical interiors and paint jobs.

True dat. My wife and I flew a UA 767 a few years ago with a new interior. She thought it was a new plane. I didn't bother getting into it. OTOH I have been on some really shabby planes less than 5 YO.

I flew on an Air India 787 that felt like it was 30+ and nearing retirement. Ratty, filthy interior with stains; broken IFE etc.

It was 6 months old.

To the thread OP, the 73Gs have yet to use half their certified life at this time. WN will opt to retire the type probably at the 4th D-check interval; for costs, not safety. Planes gain weight with time (doublers and patches), loose aerodynamics (dints and dings), and just require more maintenance.

My back of the envelope number is 2020, but I'm being lazy and not digging into the numbers. If the planes are holding up, make that 2027 for low utilization duty. Meh... An airline only needs new for high utilization.
For 8.5+ hours per day of aircraft utilization, fly aircraft less than 12 years old for best economics.
For 6 to 9 hours per day, fly aircraft 12 to 28 years old for the best economics.
For 4 to 7 hours per day, only fly aircraft over 14 years old (otherwise you loose your shirt in lease payments,).
Don't buy a jet to fly it less than 4 hours per day without a monopoly on the route.

Allegiant is right now buying 14+ year old A319/320 for 6.5 hours per day for example.

WN needs a good chunk of 14+ year old planes for seasonality.

737NGs are good for 110,000 cycles and 125,000 hours. There isn't any close, yet.

TWA772LR wrote:

I bet 99% of people here including myself cant tell the difference between a 90s build 73G and a newer 73G that have identical interiors and paint jobs.

I wouldn't be able to tell an old plane out of paint and cabin refresh Grom new...

But I'm better than 90% and can tell the various sub types, which probably includes most here.

A plane must be safe the last flight on the last day at MTOW and MLW or even an overweight landing. There is margin.

Lightsaber

Wayfarer515 wrote:

Tired as in CFM-56 pieces flying all over the place and WN finally running out of luck...come on its pretty obvious this has been going on for some time now, time to put those old birds to rest, the sooner the better

These birds are not old and their maintenance is world class. I hope these birds fly on for many years.

My first 73G was WN's #1 N700GS, back in 2016. She was already 19 years old and didn't seem "tired", bit rather nice compared the '91-built -500 I had just flown on the leg before N700. They are still darn good planes and I hope they stick around till at least 2022 like some others have stated.

I love WN but I always have (including when the -300's and -500's were around) book my flights away from the -700 when I can (not easy to do when they have 500+ in the fleet). They are uncomfortable, have no charm, and are usually the ones to have maintenance problems. WN's -800's in comparison are comfortable, modern, and reliable.

Sooner787 wrote:

Southwest has something like 500 73G's right now, you can't replace that many frames overnight.

No. Of course not. Look how long it took American to phase out its huge MD-80 fleet, they started retiring them 10 years ago and the last one is still scheduled to leave end of next year. So I wouldn't expect the last 73G at Southwest to leave before 2028.

Wayfarer515 wrote:

come on its pretty obvious this has been going on for some time now

What is it you speak of that's been going on for some time?

Super80Fan wrote:

I love WN but I always have (including when the -300's and -500's were around) book my flights away from the -700 when I can (not easy to do when they have 500+ in the fleet). They are uncomfortable, have no charm, and are usually the ones to have maintenance problems. WN's -800's in comparison are comfortable, modern, and reliable.

So the -800 has "charm" but the -700 doesn't? I flew on -700s and -800s last week - the only one "uncomfortable" was the -800 with the older seats.

LH707330 wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

I bet 99% of people here including myself cant tell the difference between a 90s build 73G and a newer 73G that have identical interiors and paint jobs.

Couple ways:
1. Around 2011 they introduced the 7BE engine. If it has the longer core duct, it's likely older: http://www.b737.org.uk/powerplant.htm#CFM567BE
2. LED strobes added around 2013, most new ones have these, if it's got the quick-flash, it's probably an older one
3. Landing lights: at some point, they relocated them from the nose to the wing root or vice versa, can't remember exactly.

Items 1 and 3 only apply to WN 800's, item 2 doesn't apply because many older 7/800's are being retrofitted with LED strobes.

barney captain wrote:

LH707330 wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

I bet 99% of people here including myself cant tell the difference between a 90s build 73G and a newer 73G that have identical interiors and paint jobs.

Couple ways:
1. Around 2011 they introduced the 7BE engine. If it has the longer core duct, it's likely older: http://www.b737.org.uk/powerplant.htm#CFM567BE
2. LED strobes added around 2013, most new ones have these, if it's got the quick-flash, it's probably an older one
3. Landing lights: at some point, they relocated them from the nose to the wing root or vice versa, can't remember exactly.

Items 1 and 3 only apply to WN 800's, item 2 doesn't apply because many older 7/800's are being retrofitted with LED strobes.

The best way I can tell an older 700 versus a new 700 is the cockpit eyebrow window plugs. That's about it afaik.

lightsaber wrote:

737NGs are good for 110,000 cycles and 125,000 hours. There isn't any close, yet.

The SDR site has been down for 5 days now, but some of WNs oldest 73Gs must be pushing 75,000 hours by now. When does the really expensive forward bulkhead replacement come into play?

Some of the interiors are indeed looking a little, well, tired. Even where the seats are newer, look at bins, sidewalls, and ceiling panels and you will see signs of aging.

But the frames have plenty of useful life left, and WN is not an airline known for retiring frames before they become economic to fly.

I thought I read somewhere that WN was expecting to start a few retirements of early 737-700s after all of its current 738 and MAX 8 orders are delivered, but I can't find the source. I think it will be well over a decade before they are all gone.

Not too long ago, I was on a DL A321 that was pretty new. Passenger in back was drunk and puking for every bump we hit. Snack/Drink service was cancelled for economy because they couldn't get the carts past the newly created river by said passenger.

The best way I can tell an older 700 versus a new 700 is the cockpit eyebrow window plugs. That's about it afaik

Also the cockpit vortex generators which started appearing in 2005. Of course the easiest way is simply the tail number - but with the latest numbering system, that has gotten less clear.

For those wondering how they can tell if they’re on an older -700, it’s quite simple. The N700-N792 (1998-2001 deliveries) have tan PSUs.

N700-N799 - Delivered 1998-2001
N400-N499 - Delivered 2001- 2004
N200-N299 - Delivered 2004-2007
N900-N969 - Delivered 2007-2011
N5** / N78**/ N798, N799, N270,N271- Secondhand -700s

SXDFC wrote:

For those wondering how they can tell if they’re on an older -700, it’s quite simple. The N700-N792 (1998-2001 deliveries) have tan PSUs.

N700-N799 - Delivered 1998-2001
N400-N499 - Delivered 2001- 2004
N200-N299 - Delivered 2004-2007
N900-N969 - Delivered 2007-2011
N5** / N78**/ N798, N799, N270,N271- Secondhand -700s

I think you forgot N77** which are the Airtran birds

Spacepope wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

737NGs are good for 110,000 cycles and 125,000 hours. There isn't any close, yet.

The SDR site has been down for 5 days now, but some of WNs oldest 73Gs must be pushing 75,000 hours by now. When does the really expensive forward bulkhead replacement come into play?

I'm going from memory, but the expensive bulkhead inspection and inevitable repair is at 85,000 cycles. I actually do not know if there is an hour limit.

However, I have been informed of 737s that went through the repair.

I'd love to know more of the details... But I don't.

In WN's case, a repair will last more than the first heavy maintenance cycle, so it is probably worth it.

I cannot believe I'm typing that. My opinion of the bulkhead inspection/repair has changed due to new information.

Lightsaber

Late edit:
What is the cycle and hours for WN's fleet leaders? Everything else, excluding avionics upgrades, is relatively cheap except that bulkhead inspection.
.

If we're doing a pool, I estimate 65,000 cycles (for cycle leader) and 70,000 hours (for hour leader).

How close am I?

INFINITI329 wrote:

SXDFC wrote:

For those wondering how they can tell if they’re on an older -700, it’s quite simple. The N700-N792 (1998-2001 deliveries) have tan PSUs.

N700-N799 - Delivered 1998-2001
N400-N499 - Delivered 2001- 2004
N200-N299 - Delivered 2004-2007
N900-N969 - Delivered 2007-2011
N5** / N78**/ N798, N799, N270,N271- Secondhand -700s

I think you forgot N77** which are the Airtran birds

Thank you for that.

7701-7750- Ex airTran-700s. You can tell the airTran birds apart, because of the blueish tint on the sidewalls. Pretty sure they were all 2003-2009 builds. Someone might know that a bit better than me.

SXDFC wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

SXDFC wrote:

For those wondering how they can tell if they’re on an older -700, it’s quite simple. The N700-N792 (1998-2001 deliveries) have tan PSUs.

N700-N799 - Delivered 1998-2001
N400-N499 - Delivered 2001- 2004
N200-N299 - Delivered 2004-2007
N900-N969 - Delivered 2007-2011
N5** / N78**/ N798, N799, N270,N271- Secondhand -700s

I think you forgot N77** which are the Airtran birds

Thank you for that.

7701-7750- Ex airTran-700s. You can tell the airTran birds apart, because of the blueish tint on the sidewalls. Pretty sure they were all 2003-2009 builds. Someone might know that a bit better than me.

Or the terrible paint jobs that were done. You can still see remnants of the FL livery up close. I wonder if the ex FL planes were paint stripped or just painted over.

dc10lover wrote:

Southwest Airlines should just go with the MAX8.

There are lots of smaller markets that can't fill Max 8's.

What? This is a.net! Only 757's and 767's can be considered tired (joking).

LH707330 wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

barney captain wrote:

Items 1 and 3 only apply to WN 800's, item 2 doesn't apply because many older 7/800's are being retrofitted with LED strobes.

The best way I can tell an older 700 versus a new 700 is the cockpit eyebrow window plugs. That's about it afaik.

Ah, I forgot about the plugs. Barney, regarding #2, that's why I said quick flash => old, not necessarily LED => new, though I should have been more clear there. Regarding 1 and 3, did WN simply not buy any 700s after those mods?

I don't believe that they received any brand new ones after 2011 or 2012. I remember they ended deliveries almost as soon as the -800's started arriving. Of course there have been many second hand -700's introduced since then.

I really don't care if/ when WN retires their 73Gs, as long as they update cabins for a consistent hard product across the fleet.

I'll ask again, what is the hours/cycles of WNs most used 73Gs?
That determines when they are retired. A refresh of cabin product is expensive, but not nearly as expensive as replacement.

And Boeing would be happy to collect the fee to extend 737NG LOVs:
It was only 2016 when the final 737-500s were retired,
https://airwaysmag.com/airchive/southwe ... g-737-500/
SInce that was a 1992 delivery, it is possible the 73Gs will be retired soon, but I doubt it, the 735s and 733s had their final examples retired early as part of the fleet retirement.


Last year for the 733s, but that was due to training rules (and one pilot group that WN had boxed themselves into a corner).

lightsaber wrote:

I'll ask again, what is the hours/cycles of WNs most used 73Gs?
That determines when they are retired. A refresh of cabin product is expensive, but not nearly as expensive as replacement.

And Boeing would be happy to collect the fee to extend 737NG LOVs:
It was only 2016 when the final 737-500s were retired,
https://airwaysmag.com/airchive/southwe ... g-737-500/
SInce that was a 1992 delivery, it is possible the 73Gs will be retired soon, but I doubt it, the 735s and 733s had their final examples retired early as part of the fleet retirement.


Last year for the 733s, but that was due to training rules (and one pilot group that WN had boxed themselves into a corner).

I'd love to be able to get you numbers (as I'm curious myself) but the FAA's SDR page is still down (and has been since last week) so any numbers might have to come from somebody in the know in the company...

OP needs to understand when an aircraft is worn out (at end of life, or at economic end of life as lightsaber is trying to teach him), vs. cosmetically tired and due for an interior refresh. References to Delta A320s (and 26-year old 757s that got updated) are appropriate.

MO11 wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

I love WN but I always have (including when the -300's and -500's were around) book my flights away from the -700 when I can (not easy to do when they have 500+ in the fleet). They are uncomfortable, have no charm, and are usually the ones to have maintenance problems. WN's -800's in comparison are comfortable, modern, and reliable.

So the -800 has "charm" but the -700 doesn't? I flew on -700s and -800s last week - the only one "uncomfortable" was the -800 with the older seats.

Given the same interior outfit, what's the difference between those two?
I mean, for Joe Plumber passenger. Not asking about mechanics and engines etc.

"When will WN begin to retire the 73G?"

Reminiscent of the frequently posted: "When will DL retire the DC-9" in the past.

On the topic of interior refresh, is there any reason why WN isn't retrofitting their later build -700s (less than 12 years old let's say) with some form of the sky interior to more closely match the 800s and MAX8s? I believe I saw a while back that there was a third party company offering a product similar to that.

Antarius wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

I bet 99% of people here including myself cant tell the difference between a 90s build 73G and a newer 73G that have identical interiors and paint jobs.

True dat. My wife and I flew a UA 767 a few years ago with a new interior. She thought it was a new plane. I didn't bother getting into it. OTOH I have been on some really shabby planes less than 5 YO.

I flew on an Air India 787 that felt like it was 30+ and nearing retirement. Ratty, filthy interior with stains; broken IFE etc.

It was 6 months old.

Just 6 mos old? Wow how could that happen?