ADrum23 wrote:

nmdrdh787 wrote:

United787 wrote:

I don't mean to be so negative on AA at ORD but why can't they seem to gain any ground against UA? Not in Europe, not in Asia... and not even in Latin America where they are strongest.

I think it might just be an economy of scale/volume problem. Is UA preferred for premium frequent fliers and corporate contracts because they fly the routes that AA doesn't. When travelling internationally, UA always has so many more options out of ORD. To Europe, if AA doesn't take you there non-stop, you will likely be routed through LHR. To Asia, if AA doesn't take you there you non-stop, you will likely be routed through NRT or maybe HKG. To Latin America, AA probably doesn't take you there non-stop so you will be routed through MIA. I am simplifying but that is my experience. Not only does AA fly to a lot less places non-stop when compared to UA, it's partners are more limited.

I wonder how much this is residual effects of the early One World strategy being more selective to only "premier" partners: BA, QF, JL, CX, LA etc. which aren't all really held to the same regard they were 10-15 years ago. Star Alliance on the other hand, focused more on quantity and connectivity and ended up with an overall better network... albeit with some great airlines and some mediocre ones.

Yield premium. UA is strongest internationally, mediocre on domestic.

AA is strong on domestic, weak international. The China fares and loads for them are/were terrible. 30-50% in Winter, 300-500 dollar fares...

It reflects on the service too, but the gap is closing.

I think OneWorld needs to have more interlines and more alliance partners here. But who else is left?

So do you think the end game here is AA only ends up serving ORD-LHR year round on its own metal?

gwrudolph wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

nmdrdh787 wrote:

Yield premium. UA is strongest internationally, mediocre on domestic.

AA is strong on domestic, weak international. The China fares and loads for them are/were terrible. 30-50% in Winter, 300-500 dollar fares...

It reflects on the service too, but the gap is closing.

I think OneWorld needs to have more interlines and more alliance partners here. But who else is left?

So do you think the end game here is AA only ends up serving ORD-LHR year round on its own metal?

What other ORD TATL routes do they still run year-round other than ORDLHR?

ADrum23 wrote:

None. ORD-LHR is the only one. AA ORD-CDG is suspended between January and the end of March and the rest (BCN, DUB, FCO, MAN and VCE) are summer seasonal only. I'm not sure when the latter 5 start and end.

gwrudolph wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

None. ORD-LHR is the only one. AA ORD-CDG is suspended between January and the end of March and the rest (BCN, DUB, FCO, MAN and VCE) are summer seasonal only. I'm not sure when the latter 5 start and end.

Wow, I didn't realize ORD TATL was that thin now. I'll predict that eventually they end ORD-PVG and eventually NRT and focus on LHR, island, and Mexico flying out of ORD. We might one day see a return of GRU and or start of EZE. I suppose those two are largely dependent on what happens with the economomies of Brazil and Argentina going forward.

toobz wrote:

I When comparing the financials of the US3, UA lags quite a bit. Is this because they are not as likely to pull the plug on loss generating flights, like DL and AA?

MAH4546 wrote:

No, it's not ironic. Early China-U.S. frequencies are unrestricted. AA does not have any of those. While DL is allowed to fly whatever it wants with those NRTPVG frequencies, AA must fly ORDPEK with or give it up. All of AA's China frequencies are route specific. UA and DL have some unrestricted allotments.

tphuang wrote:

The problem with starting flight in PHL is its proximity to EWR. People I know who live in PA close to NJ will simply drive to EWR or even JFK for flights to China. And people on the side can fly out of IAD. Could AA establish a flight to PEK out of PHL by drawing from NJ and DC area? They could, but that would simply get the even lower yielding types. PHL simply doesn't have a great O&D number to make it work. Flights to China are low yielding in general........ .

AAplat4life wrote:

Passenger numbers on ORD-PEK are down for all three carriers, but still healthy overall for 2 carriers to divide up. But with 3 carriers on a route, AA’s preference to connect passengers through DFW, and a mediocre product in business class (rear facing seats on the 787-8 that shake), AA had to drop this route.

ADrum23 wrote:

gwrudolph wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

None. ORD-LHR is the only one. AA ORD-CDG is suspended between January and the end of March and the rest (BCN, DUB, FCO, MAN and VCE) are summer seasonal only. I'm not sure when the latter 5 start and end.

Wow, I didn't realize ORD TATL was that thin now. I'll predict that eventually they end ORD-PVG and eventually NRT and focus on LHR, island, and Mexico flying out of ORD. We might one day see a return of GRU and or start of EZE. I suppose those two are largely dependent on what happens with the economomies of Brazil and Argentina going forward.

From what I hear, the AA ORD summer TATL flying is profitable and popular, so I don't think that will go anywhere. I agree it is a matter of when before AA cuts ORD-PVG and perhaps even ORD-NRT on their own metal.

AAplat4life wrote:

Passenger numbers on ORD-PEK are down for all three carriers, but still healthy overall for 2 carriers to divide up. But with 3 carriers on a route, AA’s preference to connect passengers through DFW, and a mediocre product in business class (rear facing seats on the 787-8 that shake), AA had to drop this route.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

AAplat4life wrote:

Passenger numbers on ORD-PEK are down for all three carriers, but still healthy overall for 2 carriers to divide up. But with 3 carriers on a route, AA’s preference to connect passengers through DFW, and a mediocre product in business class (rear facing seats on the 787-8 that shake), AA had to drop this route.

Have you flown on UA's 777 that flies from ORD to PEK? I flew it from ORD-HKG recently and I can promise you whatever AA has on their 787 is worlds better.

kiowa wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

AAplat4life wrote:

Passenger numbers on ORD-PEK are down for all three carriers, but still healthy overall for 2 carriers to divide up. But with 3 carriers on a route, AA’s preference to connect passengers through DFW, and a mediocre product in business class (rear facing seats on the 787-8 that shake), AA had to drop this route.

Have you flown on UA's 777 that flies from ORD to PEK? I flew it from ORD-HKG recently and I can promise you whatever AA has on their 787 is worlds better.

I flew PEK to ORD 2 days ago on UA. Seating was great in business, WIFI worked and we arrived 45 minutes early. Flight was on a UA 777-200. I cannot "promise you" that United's product is "worlds better" than AAs on their 787 because I have not flown it yet.

K

lowfareair wrote:

I agree on PHL/CLT-Asia flight(s), particularly TYO with the JL JV. It wouldn't shock me to see an ORD-Asia 788 flip to PHL/CLT-TYO. With them talking more about Europe, I'd expect 788s to start appearing in PHL/CLT next year for some of the 763 flying that will need to be covered as those birds are retired/sent to new destinations, especially when they reduce the J count to 20 on the 788.

Kashmon wrote:

this is not surprising
considering AA's strategy of growth ( JFK) involves cutting routes...
no wonder they are cutting routes trans pacific.

I imagine they will cut more...

By 2021 they will start their process of cutting Latin America as well to further enhance their network...

AA can't make a flight from Chicago to Beijing work.... the only reason this airline exists is because of the monopoly power handed to them by the government

I mean
Chicago
to Beijing...

United787 wrote:

I don't mean to be so negative on AA at ORD but why can't they seem to gain any ground against UA? Not in Europe, not in Asia... and not even in Latin America where they are strongest.

I think it might just be an economy of scale/volume problem. Is UA preferred for premium frequent fliers and corporate contracts because they fly the routes that AA doesn't. When travelling internationally, UA always has so many more options out of ORD. To Europe, if AA doesn't take you there non-stop, you will likely be routed through LHR. To Asia, if AA doesn't take you there you non-stop, you will likely be routed through NRT or maybe HKG. To Latin America, AA probably doesn't take you there non-stop so you will be routed through MIA. I am simplifying but that is my experience. Not only does AA fly to a lot less places non-stop when compared to UA, it's partners are more limited.

I wonder how much this is residual effects of the early One World strategy being more selective to only "premier" partners: BA, QF, JL, CX, LA etc. which aren't all really held to the same regard they were 10-15 years ago. Star Alliance on the other hand, focused more on quantity and connectivity and ended up with an overall better network... albeit with some great airlines and some mediocre ones.

BroadwayLimited wrote:

Sounds like Delta might have been one step ahead of the game, the way they are handling Asia. Delta has had to readjust their Asia strategy, now American is having to readjust its Asia strategy. A lot of adjustments going on in the industry in regards to Asia. Smart for Delta and now American to tackle the problem head-on now.

To be honest, the big three kind of have international pretty well split up. Delta basically has Europe, American has South American, and UA has Asia. Isn't competition a wonderful thing!.

UPlog wrote:

Its true, does seem like AA-DL-UA seem to each have a primary area of strength - much thanks to assets they purchased from folks like Pan Am and Eastern.

Regarding Asia, seems UA saw all the changes coming more than a decade ago, having worked to adapt its network away from Tokyo and focused on building SFO combined with JV partnerships. Appears this is paying big dividends not while both AA and DL must adapt and figure out their own new strategies to serve the region.

Swadian wrote:

lowfareair wrote:

I agree on PHL/CLT-Asia flight(s), particularly TYO with the JL JV. It wouldn't shock me to see an ORD-Asia 788 flip to PHL/CLT-TYO. With them talking more about Europe, I'd expect 788s to start appearing in PHL/CLT next year for some of the 763 flying that will need to be covered as those birds are retired/sent to new destinations, especially when they reduce the J count to 20 on the 788.

Who said AA is reducing J count on the 788 to 20? They currently have 28 J on the 763, so why reduce the 788 to less than 763?

Swadian wrote:

BroadwayLimited wrote:

Sounds like Delta might have been one step ahead of the game, the way they are handling Asia. Delta has had to readjust their Asia strategy, now American is having to readjust its Asia strategy. A lot of adjustments going on in the industry in regards to Asia. Smart for Delta and now American to tackle the problem head-on now.

To be honest, the big three kind of have international pretty well split up. Delta basically has Europe, American has South American, and UA has Asia. Isn't competition a wonderful thing!.

DL isn't really doing any better in Asia considering they just cut SEA-HKG.

mcogator wrote:

With fuel prices rising, no doubt the US3 are bleeding on these routes. Theres only so many paid J travelers for all the capacity.

Alphazone wrote:

I dunno, these days in my airport the flights to PVG and PEK are oversold in J every day.

Alphazone wrote:

mcogator wrote:

With fuel prices rising, no doubt the US3 are bleeding on these routes. Theres only so many paid J travelers for all the capacity.

I dunno, these days in my airport the flights to PVG and PEK are oversold in J every day.

Planeboy17 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

mcogator wrote:

With fuel prices rising, no doubt the US3 are bleeding on these routes. Theres only so many paid J travelers for all the capacity.

I dunno, these days in my airport the flights to PVG and PEK are oversold in J every day.

Do you want to keep your airport a secret?

compensateme wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

I dunno, these days in my airport the flights to PVG and PEK are oversold in J every day.

LOL, what airline oversells J “every day?” Unicorn Airlines from its Atlantis hub? Delta on its A380 service from its AUS hub?

Planeboy17 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

mcogator wrote:

With fuel prices rising, no doubt the US3 are bleeding on these routes. Theres only so many paid J travelers for all the capacity.

I dunno, these days in my airport the flights to PVG and PEK are oversold in J every day.

Do you want to keep your airport a secret?

Alphazone wrote:

compensateme wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

I dunno, these days in my airport the flights to PVG and PEK are oversold in J every day.

LOL, what airline oversells J “every day?” Unicorn Airlines from its Atlantis hub? Delta on its A380 service from its AUS hub?

What was your goal with this post

toobz wrote:

I wasn’t aware that overbooking J is a thing...

LAXintl wrote:

AA has tried tons of longhaul routes over the years from ORD -- EZE, DEL, GRU, FRA, HEL, DME, etc.

As AA VP of Networks stated today, Chicago international flying has historically been "chronically loss-making - some of the worst in the network."

Swadian wrote:

[]

DL isn't really doing any better in Asia considering they just cut SEA-HKG.

[.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

compensateme wrote:

LOL, what airline oversells J “every day?” Unicorn Airlines from its Atlantis hub? Delta on its A380 service from its AUS hub?

What was your goal with this post

Hes basically saying you either are grossly exaggerating or dont actually know what youre talking about.

jumbojet wrote:

Swadian wrote:

DL isn't really doing any better in Asia considering they just cut SEA-HKG.

he wasnt suggesting that. He was saying that AA is finally taking a page out DL's playbook and dropping a prestigious route because it is a huge money loser and is best served via other hubs and airports.

Alphazone wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

What was your goal with this post

Hes basically saying you either are grossly exaggerating or dont actually know what youre talking about.

Hahaha, well anyone can come to DTW and ask any DL gate agent about the PVG and PEK flights during summertime and substantiate what I wrote.

Planeboy17 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Hes basically saying you either are grossly exaggerating or dont actually know what youre talking about.

Hahaha, well anyone can come to DTW and ask any DL gate agent about the PVG and PEK flights during summertime and substantiate what I wrote.

Um, maybe actual data instead of word of mouth from gate agents would be more persuasive.

Alphazone wrote:

I'm not quoting a "word of mouth from gate agents" but my own experience, if you have reason to doubt what I'm saying then do explain the reason. I won't enter pissing contest with some children from the internet.

Alphazone wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

Hahaha, well anyone can come to DTW and ask any DL gate agent about the PVG and PEK flights during summertime and substantiate what I wrote.

Um, maybe actual data instead of word of mouth from gate agents would be more persuasive.

I'm not quoting a "word of mouth from gate agents" but my own experience, if you have reason to doubt what I'm saying then do explain the reason. I won't enter pissing contest with some children from the internet.

Planeboy17 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

Um, maybe actual data instead of word of mouth from gate agents would be more persuasive.

I'm not quoting a "word of mouth from gate agents" but my own experience, if you have reason to doubt what I'm saying then do explain the reason. I won't enter pissing contest with some children from the internet.

So you wrote a definitive claim that J class is sold out to PEK and PVG everyday from my airport but fail to say what airport that was, without any data to verify and literally wrote “ ask any gate agent about the PVG and PEK flights during the summertime and substantiate what I wrote” but claim not to be using word of mouth and then get snippy and call anyone questioning your claim children. Why can’t we just have a normal conversation about this instead of it degrading to this?

Alphazone wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

I'm not quoting a "word of mouth from gate agents" but my own experience, if you have reason to doubt what I'm saying then do explain the reason. I won't enter pissing contest with some children from the internet.

So you wrote a definitive claim that J class is sold out to PEK and PVG everyday from my airport but fail to say what airport that was, without any data to verify and literally wrote “ ask any gate agent about the PVG and PEK flights during the summertime and substantiate what I wrote” but claim not to be using word of mouth and then get snippy and call anyone questioning your claim children. Why can’t we just have a normal conversation about this instead of it degrading to this?

Ok, so my first claim is not based on a "word of mouth" haha I called DL yesterday to book PVG, PEK flight leaving that day and -10 was the availability of both, with J -1 at least.

United1 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

So you wrote a definitive claim that J class is sold out to PEK and PVG everyday from my airport but fail to say what airport that was, without any data to verify and literally wrote “ ask any gate agent about the PVG and PEK flights during the summertime and substantiate what I wrote” but claim not to be using word of mouth and then get snippy and call anyone questioning your claim children. Why can’t we just have a normal conversation about this instead of it degrading to this?

Ok, so my first claim is not based on a "word of mouth" haha I called DL yesterday to book PVG, PEK flight leaving that day and -10 was the availability of both, with J -1 at least.

Well that's an interesting claim...looking at July 1st there are 11 seats open in J from DTW-PEK and 4 open J seats on the DTW-PVG flight. Now I'm sure lots of those seats will be taken by upgrades but DL is certainly not selling to capacity every day or overbooking. AFAIK no US airline overbooks J...that's just asking for problems.

Can someone also please remind me what does any of this have to do with AA dropping ORD-PEK?

jumbojet wrote:

Swadian wrote:

[]

DL isn't really doing any better in Asia considering they just cut SEA-HKG.

[.

he wasnt suggesting that. He was saying that AA is finally taking a page out DL's playbook and dropping a prestigious route because it is a huge money loser and is best served via other hubs and airports.

Alphazone wrote:

United1 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

Ok, so my first claim is not based on a "word of mouth" haha I called DL yesterday to book PVG, PEK flight leaving that day and -10 was the availability of both, with J -1 at least.

Well that's an interesting claim...looking at July 1st there are 11 seats open in J from DTW-PEK and 4 open J seats on the DTW-PVG flight. Now I'm sure lots of those seats will be taken by upgrades but DL is certainly not selling to capacity every day or overbooking. AFAIK no US airline overbooks J...that's just asking for problems.

Can someone also please remind me what does any of this have to do with AA dropping ORD-PEK?

Your date July 1 is Sunday which may account for fewer businesspeople traveling than during the work week.

United1 wrote:

Can someone also please remind me what does any of this have to do with AA dropping ORD-PEK?

United1 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

United1 wrote:

Well that's an interesting claim...looking at July 1st there are 11 seats open in J from DTW-PEK and 4 open J seats on the DTW-PVG flight. Now I'm sure lots of those seats will be taken by upgrades but DL is certainly not selling to capacity every day or overbooking. AFAIK no US airline overbooks J...that's just asking for problems.

Can someone also please remind me what does any of this have to do with AA dropping ORD-PEK?

Your date July 1 is Sunday which may account for fewer businesspeople traveling than during the work week.

No doubt but that doesn't exactly lend credence to your claim of "I dunno, these days in my airport the flights to PVG and PEK are oversold in J every day." does it?

Alphazone wrote:

United1 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

Your date July 1 is Sunday which may account for fewer businesspeople traveling than during the work week.

No doubt but that doesn't exactly lend credence to your claim of "I dunno, these days in my airport the flights to PVG and PEK are oversold in J every day." does it?

I don't know why you are trying to argue with the common knowledge that these flights are constantly oversold. You presented data for one day, in advance of the actual date; odds are the flights will be oversold or full by tomorrow.

United1 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

United1 wrote:

No doubt but that doesn't exactly lend credence to your claim of "I dunno, these days in my airport the flights to PVG and PEK are oversold in J every day." does it?

I don't know why you are trying to argue with the common knowledge that these flights are constantly oversold. You presented data for one day, in advance of the actual date; odds are the flights will be oversold or full by tomorrow.

Common knowledge? Shirley you kidding me.....and yes I'm calling you Shirley.

BTW that one data point I presented is more information than you have presented this entire thread. If you would like to be successful at this argument please present data (gate agent, pilot and F/A chatter does not count) that shows every DL flight from DTW-PEK/PVG is oversold every day. If you can't/won't might I suggest to you that you stop making things up and return this thread to what it originally was...ie a discussion on AA dropping ORD-PEK.

Alphazone wrote:

United1 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

I don't know why you are trying to argue with the common knowledge that these flights are constantly oversold. You presented data for one day, in advance of the actual date; odds are the flights will be oversold or full by tomorrow.

Common knowledge? Shirley you kidding me.....and yes I'm calling you Shirley.

BTW that one data point I presented is more information than you have presented this entire thread. If you would like to be successful at this argument please present data (gate agent, pilot and F/A chatter does not count) that shows every DL flight from DTW-PEK/PVG is oversold every day. If you can't/won't might I suggest to you that you stop making things up and return this thread to what it originally was...ie a discussion on AA dropping ORD-PEK.

Uhhhh

If it's really important to you, might I suggest to you that you check the loads for "every DL flight from DTW-PEK/PVG" that's one flight to each, daily

And post it here.

ORDfan wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

AA has tried tons of longhaul routes over the years from ORD -- EZE, DEL, GRU, FRA, HEL, DME, etc.

As AA VP of Networks stated today, Chicago international flying has historically been "chronically loss-making - some of the worst in the network."

Honestly, I think this has more to do with AA than ORD. AA long-haul product is terrible.. actually IMO, they suck in general. Never waited for a gate as many times as I have with AA.

Star TATL are doing great at ORD. IMO, a lot of it has to do with the fact that the O&D market is able to choose their pick of superior foreign flag product. And in the scheme of things UA > AA. Unless you're a tourist booking [insert AE origin here] to Europe or Asia, who in their right mind would fly AA overseas? I'd recommend anyone to shoot for one their OneWorld partners for the intercon leg. If I'm flying J and the spread to JAL, ANA, etc is within a thousand bucks or so, I'm going with the other shop every time.

United1 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

United1 wrote:

Common knowledge? Shirley you kidding me.....and yes I'm calling you Shirley.

BTW that one data point I presented is more information than you have presented this entire thread. If you would like to be successful at this argument please present data (gate agent, pilot and F/A chatter does not count) that shows every DL flight from DTW-PEK/PVG is oversold every day. If you can't/won't might I suggest to you that you stop making things up and return this thread to what it originally was...ie a discussion on AA dropping ORD-PEK.

Uhhhh

If it's really important to you, might I suggest to you that you check the loads for "every DL flight from DTW-PEK/PVG" that's one flight to each, daily

And post it here.

Bwhahaha

You are the one who made that ridiculous claim...not me. If you want to support it with facts feel free. Otherwise I would suggest dropping it.