Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
NZ321 wrote:EWR experiences quite significant delays and congestion around New York and is a clear destination - origin market with slot pressure. So why shouldn't Dulles grab a larger slice of the connecting international market?
NZ321 wrote:So why shouldn't Dulles grab a larger slice of the connecting international market?
izbtmnhd wrote:NZ321 wrote:So why shouldn't Dulles grab a larger slice of the connecting international market?
Because UA makes more money with a larger international presence at EWR than at IAD. These UA hubs have co-existed for almost a decade and the a.netter idea in which UA desperately needs to expand IAD as a reliever hub for EWR hasn't happened. It is what it is.
evank516 wrote:IAD would be good for North/South if UA ever decided to expand its presence in the Southeast at all. It's a good location for Northeast-Southeast connections.
IADCA wrote:evank516 wrote:IAD would be good for North/South if UA ever decided to expand its presence in the Southeast at all. It's a good location for Northeast-Southeast connections.
Honestly, it's not a great connecting facility, for a couple reasons. One is that C/D is a dump. I say this as a DC-based UA mid-tier elite, so I see the place entirely too much. If you have anything more than a very short connection, it's an unpleasant place to wait for a flight (assuming no lounge access). The second is that most flights to the Southeast (at least presently) are on RJs, and most mainline to RJ connections on UA at IAD involve a terminal switch. Depending on which gates you're coming from in the C/D concourse, that can be a surprising amount of hassle.
On the plus side, it has a lot of runway capacity and the ATC staff there do a great job in keeping everything moving well, so it's a lot less delay-prone than some other East Coast hubs.
IADCA wrote:evank516 wrote:IAD would be good for North/South if UA ever decided to expand its presence in the Southeast at all. It's a good location for Northeast-Southeast connections.
Honestly, it's not a great connecting facility, for a couple reasons. One is that C/D is a dump. I say this as a DC-based UA mid-tier elite, so I see the place entirely too much. If you have anything more than a very short connection, it's an unpleasant place to wait for a flight (assuming no lounge access). The second is that most flights to the Southeast (at least presently) are on RJs, and most mainline to RJ connections on UA at IAD involve a terminal switch. Depending on which gates you're coming from in the C/D concourse, that can be a surprising amount of hassle.
On the plus side, it has a lot of runway capacity and the ATC staff there do a great job in keeping everything moving well, so it's a lot less delay-prone than some other East Coast hubs.
TWA772LR wrote:IADCA wrote:evank516 wrote:IAD would be good for North/South if UA ever decided to expand its presence in the Southeast at all. It's a good location for Northeast-Southeast connections.
Honestly, it's not a great connecting facility, for a couple reasons. One is that C/D is a dump. I say this as a DC-based UA mid-tier elite, so I see the place entirely too much. If you have anything more than a very short connection, it's an unpleasant place to wait for a flight (assuming no lounge access). The second is that most flights to the Southeast (at least presently) are on RJs, and most mainline to RJ connections on UA at IAD involve a terminal switch. Depending on which gates you're coming from in the C/D concourse, that can be a surprising amount of hassle.
On the plus side, it has a lot of runway capacity and the ATC staff there do a great job in keeping everything moving well, so it's a lot less delay-prone than some other East Coast hubs.
The weekend warrior that takes is family from Vermont to Tampa doesn't care about lounge access, just ask Southwest.
evank516 wrote:IADCA wrote:evank516 wrote:IAD would be good for North/South if UA ever decided to expand its presence in the Southeast at all. It's a good location for Northeast-Southeast connections.
In ATL you have to switch terminals for mainline to RJ connections as well though DL seems to be integrating mainline into their DL Connection gates. .
nikeherc wrote:evank516 wrote:IADCA wrote:
In ATL you have to switch terminals for mainline to RJ connections as well though DL seems to be integrating mainline into their DL Connection gates. .
Actually, in ATL you only have to switch terminals for international connections. You may switch concourses, which are all behind security, even for mainline to mainline connections. At ATL, that's not a big deal.
jplatts wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:NZ321 wrote:So why shouldn't Dulles grab a larger slice of the connecting international market?
Because UA makes more money with a larger international presence at EWR than at IAD. These UA hubs have co-existed for almost a decade and the a.netter idea in which UA desperately needs to expand IAD as a reliever hub for EWR hasn't happened. It is what it is.
UA's EWR hub was actually acquired through the UA-CO merger, whereas UA had a hub at IAD prior to the UA-CO merger.
WaywardMemphian wrote:The Metro will increase it's viability as an O&D airport for folks visiting DC. Even more desirable as a long layover place. It's not going to be any bigger of a hassle than the train from BWI once it's done plus there's the Smithsonian Air and Space on site. MEM recently stated it wants IAD service. There's a possible new city from IAD.
izbtmnhd wrote:WaywardMemphian wrote:The Metro will increase it's viability as an O&D airport for folks visiting DC. Even more desirable as a long layover place. It's not going to be any bigger of a hassle than the train from BWI once it's done plus there's the Smithsonian Air and Space on site. MEM recently stated it wants IAD service. There's a possible new city from IAD.
METRO will not be a game changer. No express service. So it’s 15 stops to Foggy Bottom. You’ll have around 20 stops just to get to the Mall. Whereas Amtrak or MARC from BWI has three stops or less for Union Station. Union Station is a stones throw from all the tourist/business downtown DC areas.
flyguy84 wrote:EWR will never be downsized in favor of IAD or anywhere else. United will not open up room for other carriers to grow and steal market share. This is exactly what happened during Smiseks disastrous tenure as CEO.
izbtmnhd wrote:WaywardMemphian wrote:The Metro will increase it's viability as an O&D airport for folks visiting DC. Even more desirable as a long layover place. It's not going to be any bigger of a hassle than the train from BWI once it's done plus there's the Smithsonian Air and Space on site. MEM recently stated it wants IAD service. There's a possible new city from IAD.
METRO will not be a game changer. No express service. So it’s 15 stops to Foggy Bottom. You’ll have around 20 stops just to get to the Mall. Whereas Amtrak or MARC from BWI has three stops or less for Union Station. Union Station is a stones throw from all the tourist/business downtown DC areas.
blockski wrote:flyguy84 wrote:EWR will never be downsized in favor of IAD or anywhere else. United will not open up room for other carriers to grow and steal market share. This is exactly what happened during Smiseks disastrous tenure as CEO.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that EWR be downsized. Rather, UA has choices of what kind of traffic they flow over each hub. And for more of their north-south domestic traffic on the east coast, they could choose to flow it over IAD instead of EWR.
The reasons to do so would be because of capacity and congestion, fitting with UA's goals to increase domestic connectivity as well.
It’s essentially adding a complimentary role to IAD's current internationala gateway hub. The commentary here notes that UA runs four banks at IAD, only one of which (the PM European bank) uses all of their gates. They could fill out those other banks as well with additional domestic traffic without taking anything away from EWR and instead making it the place for that net growth Scott Kirby outlined in UA's strategy last year.
ual763 wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:WaywardMemphian wrote:The Metro will increase it's viability as an O&D airport for folks visiting DC. Even more desirable as a long layover place. It's not going to be any bigger of a hassle than the train from BWI once it's done plus there's the Smithsonian Air and Space on site. MEM recently stated it wants IAD service. There's a possible new city from IAD.
METRO will not be a game changer. No express service. So it’s 15 stops to Foggy Bottom. You’ll have around 20 stops just to get to the Mall. Whereas Amtrak or MARC from BWI has three stops or less for Union Station. Union Station is a stones throw from all the tourist/business downtown DC areas.
It will definitely be a game changer for Dulles.
Distance wise, it's not that much more from IAD to DC on the METRO. Considering at BWI, one has to exit the airport, wait for a bus to take you over to the AMTRAK/MARC station, then wait for the next AMTRAK/MARC, then take the 30-35 minute train ride to union station, then go down a few levels to the METRO station underneath Union Station, wait for the next available METRO, then take the 5-10 minute METRO ride to the mall.
Whereas, with the future METRO service from IAD, one will simply walk through the underground walkway from the airport exit to the METRO station, and be able to sit in the same seat and arrive at the mall in about 50minutes. In the end, with all said, it will be about the same amount of time (maybe even a little bit quicker, considering all of the connections at BWI), with not very much hassle.
IADCA wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:WaywardMemphian wrote:The Metro will increase it's viability as an O&D airport for folks visiting DC. Even more desirable as a long layover place. It's not going to be any bigger of a hassle than the train from BWI once it's done plus there's the Smithsonian Air and Space on site. MEM recently stated it wants IAD service. There's a possible new city from IAD.
METRO will not be a game changer. No express service. So it’s 15 stops to Foggy Bottom. You’ll have around 20 stops just to get to the Mall. Whereas Amtrak or MARC from BWI has three stops or less for Union Station. Union Station is a stones throw from all the tourist/business downtown DC areas.
It's going to be a big change, but not vis a vis BWI. Those two are just too far apart. But it will be a pretty big change for people living along the Orange/Silver corridor with respect to the IAD/DCA decision. For anyone living in Arlington and Falls Church along the Orange, you lose a train change at Rosslyn to the infrequent Blue service to DCA and get a single seat to IAD. Don't laugh - we're talking 100,000 people or so in that corridor in a county with a median income well above $100k for Arlington alone.
izbtmnhd wrote:IADCA wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:
METRO will not be a game changer. No express service. So it’s 15 stops to Foggy Bottom. You’ll have around 20 stops just to get to the Mall. Whereas Amtrak or MARC from BWI has three stops or less for Union Station. Union Station is a stones throw from all the tourist/business downtown DC areas.
It's going to be a big change, but not vis a vis BWI. Those two are just too far apart. But it will be a pretty big change for people living along the Orange/Silver corridor with respect to the IAD/DCA decision. For anyone living in Arlington and Falls Church along the Orange, you lose a train change at Rosslyn to the infrequent Blue service to DCA and get a single seat to IAD. Don't laugh - we're talking 100,000 people or so in that corridor in a county with a median income well above $100k for Arlington alone.
If you take Orange it's not a single seat you have to get off at East Falls Church and wait for the Silver.
Peak hours, no big deal. Non-peak it's about as bad as the Blue transfer.
jplatts wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:NZ321 wrote:So why shouldn't Dulles grab a larger slice of the connecting international market?
Because UA makes more money with a larger international presence at EWR than at IAD. These UA hubs have co-existed for almost a decade and the a.netter idea in which UA desperately needs to expand IAD as a reliever hub for EWR hasn't happened. It is what it is.
UA's EWR hub was actually acquired through the UA-CO merger, whereas UA had a hub at IAD prior to the UA-CO merger.
IADCA wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:IADCA wrote:
It's going to be a big change, but not vis a vis BWI. Those two are just too far apart. But it will be a pretty big change for people living along the Orange/Silver corridor with respect to the IAD/DCA decision. For anyone living in Arlington and Falls Church along the Orange, you lose a train change at Rosslyn to the infrequent Blue service to DCA and get a single seat to IAD. Don't laugh - we're talking 100,000 people or so in that corridor in a county with a median income well above $100k for Arlington alone.
If you take Orange it's not a single seat you have to get off at East Falls Church and wait for the Silver.
Peak hours, no big deal. Non-peak it's about as bad as the Blue transfer.
Then get on a Silver line train instead, like any sane person would do. They're on the same tracks all the way through Arlington to East Falls. But you know that already, clearly. Really, it's easy. It's a single seat ride for anyone who wants one for any Orange/Silver station between Stadium-Armory and EFC, not that that's really relevant except between Court House and EFC.
timeless159 wrote:A lot of people live and work near those 15 stops. It will be a game changer. For many people it will make IAD the most convenient. And for many more it'll make the difference in transit times negligible.
ual763 wrote:Distance wise, it's not that much more from IAD to DC on the METRO. Considering at BWI, one has to exit the airport, wait for a bus to take you over to the AMTRAK/MARC station, then wait for the next AMTRAK/MARC, then take the 30-35 minute train ride to union station, then go down a few levels to the METRO station underneath Union Station, wait for the next available METRO, then take the 5-10 minute METRO ride to the mall.
Whereas, with the future METRO service from IAD, one will simply walk through the underground walkway from the airport exit to the METRO station, and be able to sit in the same seat and arrive at the mall in about 50minutes.
MapleLeaf789 wrote:I noticed this piece in Flight Global this morning about United's plans for Dulles.
flyguy84 wrote:blockski wrote:flyguy84 wrote:EWR will never be downsized in favor of IAD or anywhere else. United will not open up room for other carriers to grow and steal market share. This is exactly what happened during Smiseks disastrous tenure as CEO.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that EWR be downsized. Rather, UA has choices of what kind of traffic they flow over each hub. And for more of their north-south domestic traffic on the east coast, they could choose to flow it over IAD instead of EWR.
The reasons to do so would be because of capacity and congestion, fitting with UA's goals to increase domestic connectivity as well.
It’s essentially adding a complimentary role to IAD's current internationala gateway hub. The commentary here notes that UA runs four banks at IAD, only one of which (the PM European bank) uses all of their gates. They could fill out those other banks as well with additional domestic traffic without taking anything away from EWR and instead making it the place for that net growth Scott Kirby outlined in UA's strategy last year.
If you run N/S connections over IAD instead of EWR it would most certainly lead to downsizing and cuts to flights. You can’t run indentical traffic flows over both airports, regardless of the type as they would cannibalize each other. The only way to reduce congestion and capacity issues at EWR would be to re-slot the airport. United isn’t going to make any service changes and allow someone else to add more flights in lieu of those cuts.
izbtmnhd wrote:IADCA wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:
If you take Orange it's not a single seat you have to get off at East Falls Church and wait for the Silver.
Peak hours, no big deal. Non-peak it's about as bad as the Blue transfer.
Then get on a Silver line train instead, like any sane person would do. They're on the same tracks all the way through Arlington to East Falls. But you know that already, clearly. Really, it's easy. It's a single seat ride for anyone who wants one for any Orange/Silver station between Stadium-Armory and EFC, not that that's really relevant except between Court House and EFC.
I know you can wait, but then you wait. Considering National is much closer to Arlington, what's the advantage to Dulles except for the transfer? The Rosslyn transfer isn't that difficult and the walkway from the Parking Garage at Dulles is wayyyyyyyy longer than the walkways at National. Not to mention after security you have to take another IAD train or mobile lounge. METRO fare will be always cheaper to National too due to the silly fare system WMATA uses. I don't see the great advantage here. IAD over BWI from Arlington, sure I see it.
Also if something happens to METRO, the Lyft ride is much cheaper to Arlington from DCA.
izbtmnhd wrote:ual763 wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:
METRO will not be a game changer. No express service. So it’s 15 stops to Foggy Bottom. You’ll have around 20 stops just to get to the Mall. Whereas Amtrak or MARC from BWI has three stops or less for Union Station. Union Station is a stones throw from all the tourist/business downtown DC areas.
It will definitely be a game changer for Dulles.
Distance wise, it's not that much more from IAD to DC on the METRO. Considering at BWI, one has to exit the airport, wait for a bus to take you over to the AMTRAK/MARC station, then wait for the next AMTRAK/MARC, then take the 30-35 minute train ride to union station, then go down a few levels to the METRO station underneath Union Station, wait for the next available METRO, then take the 5-10 minute METRO ride to the mall.
Whereas, with the future METRO service from IAD, one will simply walk through the underground walkway from the airport exit to the METRO station, and be able to sit in the same seat and arrive at the mall in about 50minutes. In the end, with all said, it will be about the same amount of time (maybe even a little bit quicker, considering all of the connections at BWI), with not very much hassle.
I agree same seat service is nice but it will take longer than 50 minutes. Walkway is no bargain with baggage, way longer than those at DCA. And because Orange/Blue/Silver share the same track waiting for a train can be quite long in non-peak hours and weekends, easily over 20 minutes at times. I wont even get into service issues that will delay you further. Just be mindful that METRO ridership has dropped 15% over the last five years while the vast majority of American heavy rail systems see increased ridership. There's a reason why.
I don't see this situation being any more convenient than going to BWI.
This Silver Line was built for Ashburn/Reston commuters. Dulles was just an added benefit.
blockski wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:ual763 wrote:
It will definitely be a game changer for Dulles.
Distance wise, it's not that much more from IAD to DC on the METRO. Considering at BWI, one has to exit the airport, wait for a bus to take you over to the AMTRAK/MARC station, then wait for the next AMTRAK/MARC, then take the 30-35 minute train ride to union station, then go down a few levels to the METRO station underneath Union Station, wait for the next available METRO, then take the 5-10 minute METRO ride to the mall.
Whereas, with the future METRO service from IAD, one will simply walk through the underground walkway from the airport exit to the METRO station, and be able to sit in the same seat and arrive at the mall in about 50minutes. In the end, with all said, it will be about the same amount of time (maybe even a little bit quicker, considering all of the connections at BWI), with not very much hassle.
I agree same seat service is nice but it will take longer than 50 minutes. Walkway is no bargain with baggage, way longer than those at DCA. And because Orange/Blue/Silver share the same track waiting for a train can be quite long in non-peak hours and weekends, easily over 20 minutes at times. I wont even get into service issues that will delay you further. Just be mindful that METRO ridership has dropped 15% over the last five years while the vast majority of American heavy rail systems see increased ridership. There's a reason why.
I don't see this situation being any more convenient than going to BWI.
This Silver Line was built for Ashburn/Reston commuters. Dulles was just an added benefit.
The Silver Line will be a big change and advantage for IAD over BWI for DC based customers simply due to the much greater frequency of Metrorail service. MARC and Amtrak are not particularly frequent. Even on weekends, WMATA is much better.
Also, I don’t think it’s true that the vast majority of American transit systems have seen increased ridership in the last few years. WMATA’s decline is certainly exceptional and with an obvious cause: track work.
Flighty wrote:Until IAD catchment area can independently support great short haul ops, the natural feed for IAD hub long haul will be crippled. if DCA did not exist, IAD would be a tremendous asset. But it does
Flighty wrote:Until IAD catchment area can independently support great short haul ops, the natural feed for IAD hub long haul will be crippled. if DCA did not exist, IAD would be a tremendous asset. But it does
iyerhari wrote:One question to the group and maybe there is a history that I do not know. Isn't IAD overbuilt and has there ever been times historically when IAD total pax was ever > DCA. In my limited experience of traveling and following airlines for the past 12 years, I have always felt IAD is far overbuilt vs. DCA and DCA still does a commendable job.
ScottB wrote:iyerhari wrote:One question to the group and maybe there is a history that I do not know. Isn't IAD overbuilt and has there ever been times historically when IAD total pax was ever > DCA. In my limited experience of traveling and following airlines for the past 12 years, I have always felt IAD is far overbuilt vs. DCA and DCA still does a commendable job.
IAD traffic has actually been higher than DCA traffic for most of the past two decades. Only in 2014 did DCA surpass IAD for passenger traffic, almost entirely as a result of the divestiture of slots by AA/US to WN, B6 & VX in order for the AA-US merger to gain clearance.
IADCA wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:WaywardMemphian wrote:The Metro will increase it's viability as an O&D airport for folks visiting DC. Even more desirable as a long layover place. It's not going to be any bigger of a hassle than the train from BWI once it's done plus there's the Smithsonian Air and Space on site. MEM recently stated it wants IAD service. There's a possible new city from IAD.
METRO will not be a game changer. No express service. So it’s 15 stops to Foggy Bottom. You’ll have around 20 stops just to get to the Mall. Whereas Amtrak or MARC from BWI has three stops or less for Union Station. Union Station is a stones throw from all the tourist/business downtown DC areas.
It's going to be a big change, but not vis a vis BWI. Those two are just too far apart. But it will be a pretty big change for people living along the Orange/Silver corridor with respect to the IAD/DCA decision. For anyone living in Arlington and Falls Church along the Orange, you lose a train change at Rosslyn to the infrequent Blue service to DCA and get a single seat to IAD. Don't laugh - we're talking 100,000 people or so in that corridor in a county with a median income well above $100k for Arlington alone.
tphuang wrote:Just curious because I have been thinking that IAD would be a great place for B6 to expand in the future since it seems from the outside to have room for growth. How much gate space is available in the main terminal?
evank516 wrote:IAD would be good for North/South if UA ever decided to expand its presence in the Southeast at all. It's a good location for Northeast-Southeast connections.