Hi everyone,

As from time to time we read in the press that "future" is on narrowbody/single aisle TATL flights from secondary airports, we do know which plateform would do the job in Europe such as :
UK :
LTN
SEN

Germany :
HHN

Spain :
GRO

France :
BVA

What would be the secondary plateform is the US for the following airports in TATL flights configuration :
MIA => FLL or PBI?
ORD => ?
IAD => ?
BOS => ?
ATL => ?
DTW => ?

Thanks for your feedbacks.

Rotterdam and Eindhoven could be used as alternatives to Amsterdam and Charleroi for Brussels. In the UK East Midlands stands a chance as an alternative to Birmingham and Doncaster/Sheffield as an alternative to Manchester. Further up north Glasgow Prestwick might stand a chance. In Germany Weeze could serve as an alternative to Dusseldorf, although the Ruhrgebiet area can also be served from Cologne-Bonn or Dortmund. Memmingen could be the alternative to Munich.

In the US you could think of Long Island MacArthur and Stewart for the New York area, Atlantic City for New Jersey, Providence for Boston, Rockford for Chicago and Baltimore-Washington is the obvious choice for Washington DC.

I agree for Europe plateform.

For the US, very inteesting thank you.
I've checked them all,
Long Island is interesting.
Atlantic City => Pass, it's super too far
Providence => too far
Rockforst => Super far
Balimore => Well done! And here same question, for ppl living in this area, is this better to fly from Dulles or Baltimore instead?

Thanks for your feedback,

NYC => SYR
DTW => SYR
BOS => SYR

Wishful thinking I guess.

A380MSN004 wrote:

Balimore => Well done! And here same question, for ppl living in this area, is this better to fly from Dulles or Baltimore instead?

My 100% unbiased answer is of course BWI But actually, from what I've seen passengers tend to rate BWI among the best airports in the US. Every concourse has been renovated heavily within the last 10-15 years and a new control tower is in the works, so the airport is becoming increasingly modern. It's also easier to get to than IAD for just about everyone east of Chevy Chase.

A380MSN004 wrote:

What would be the secondary plateform is the US for the following airports in TATL flights configuration :
MIA => FLL or PBI?
ORD => ?
IAD => ?
BOS => ?
ATL => ?
DTW => ?

Thanks for your feedbacks.

Hah hah! IAD is the secondary airport... for DCA!

DTW doesn't need a secondary airport. It has ample capacity. They'd be happy to give you two gates and let you start a dozen flights next month.

BWIAirport wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

Balimore => Well done! And here same question, for ppl living in this area, is this better to fly from Dulles or Baltimore instead?

My 100% unbiased answer is of course BWI But actually, from what I've seen passengers tend to rate BWI among the best airports in the US. Every concourse has been renovated heavily within the last 10-15 years and a new control tower is in the works, so the airport is becoming increasingly modern. It's also easier to get to than IAD for just about everyone east of Chevy Chase.

It entirely depends on where you live. I live 15 minutes from IAD, but 60-90 minutes from BWI (depending on traffic). BWI is generally the airport for Marylanders, IAD for Virginians. Crossover tends to occur when people want cheaper flights from BWI and are willing to make the drive, or pretty much anyone flying intl would go to IAD (BWI has options, but they're much more limited). DCA fills the area in between, and is definitely more convenient for DC residents, Arlington, Alexandria, Montgomery County, etc.

Stewart's (SWF) in Newburgh, NY is getting some European Flights... and hey, with their 15,000' runway, they'll definitely be able to handle the MAX9 and MAX10. All kidding aside, a friend flew Norwegian out of Stewart last year.

I guess Stewart's is even considered a part of the NYNJ Port Authority (ok, that's a stretch... but there is no stripping authority away from this all powerful near autonomous body), with JFK, LGA, EWR...(where as ISP Islip isn't). Anyway off topic...

SWF is a good secondary airport for future TATL flights..

atcsundevil wrote:

BWIAirport wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

Balimore => Well done! And here same question, for ppl living in this area, is this better to fly from Dulles or Baltimore instead?

My 100% unbiased answer is of course BWI But actually, from what I've seen passengers tend to rate BWI among the best airports in the US. Every concourse has been renovated heavily within the last 10-15 years and a new control tower is in the works, so the airport is becoming increasingly modern. It's also easier to get to than IAD for just about everyone east of Chevy Chase.

It entirely depends on where you live. I live 15 minutes from IAD, but 60-90 minutes from BWI (depending on traffic). BWI is generally the airport for Marylanders, IAD for Virginians. Crossover tends to occur when people want cheaper flights from BWI and are willing to make the drive, or pretty much anyone flying intl would go to IAD (BWI has options, but they're much more limited). DCA fills the area in between, and is definitely more convenient for DC residents, Arlington, Alexandria, Montgomery County, etc.

Agreed there. In fact, this summer I'm flying IAD-CDG rather than something like BWI-LHR/KEF-CDG even though I'm 20 minutes from BWI and 90 from IAD. But if I had the nonstop option, I would absolutely be flying BWI-CDG. If we're discussing simple ease of access, for over a million Marylanders, far eastern Virginians, and even southern Pennsylvanians, BWI is a first choice between the two. In the discussion about viable secondary airports, BWI is as good as it gets. If there were more cheap international flights from BWI that didn't require a stop in Iceland, you'd see international traffic increasing exponentially.

HPN is a decent alternate to NYC. 20-30 minutes from the Bronx, flights to Florida and hubs, nice small terminal. Cape air even runs busses to the City.

BWIAirport wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

BWIAirport wrote:

My 100% unbiased answer is of course BWI But actually, from what I've seen passengers tend to rate BWI among the best airports in the US. Every concourse has been renovated heavily within the last 10-15 years and a new control tower is in the works, so the airport is becoming increasingly modern. It's also easier to get to than IAD for just about everyone east of Chevy Chase.

It entirely depends on where you live. I live 15 minutes from IAD, but 60-90 minutes from BWI (depending on traffic). BWI is generally the airport for Marylanders, IAD for Virginians. Crossover tends to occur when people want cheaper flights from BWI and are willing to make the drive, or pretty much anyone flying intl would go to IAD (BWI has options, but they're much more limited). DCA fills the area in between, and is definitely more convenient for DC residents, Arlington, Alexandria, Montgomery County, etc.

Agreed there. In fact, this summer I'm flying IAD-CDG rather than something like BWI-LHR/KEF-CDG even though I'm 20 minutes from BWI and 90 from IAD. But if I had the nonstop option, I would absolutely be flying BWI-CDG. If we're discussing simple ease of access, for over a million Marylanders, far eastern Virginians, and even southern Pennsylvanians, BWI is a first choice between the two. In the discussion about viable secondary airports, BWI is as good as it gets. If there were more cheap international flights from BWI that didn't require a stop in Iceland, you'd see international traffic increasing exponentially.

BWI is a great option for international LCCs. IAD is my airport of choice for obvious reasons, but the fees are definitely too high, and it's better equipped for the more "traditional" international passenger (whatever that is). IAD will always be the airport that has Korean, ANA, Air India, etc., but there's no reason BWI can't be a solid destination for Norwegian, Condor, Thomson, etc. It would compliment the Southwest operation nicely, in my opinion.

I'm not sure you're looking at this correctly, actually. Firstly, DTW and ORD are not "east coast;" the coast is a solid 500-700 miles from those airports. Secondly, while DTW may not have a "secondary" airport, there are secondary markets within, say, 150 miles of DTW, such as CLE. I think what you're trying to get a feel for is not Detroit's secondary airport, but rather the nearest secondary market to the big hub at Detroit.

So, for Boston it'd be PVD or PWM, for Washington, BWI or maybe an ORF? Chicago's secondary market would probably be Milwaukee... etc.

MIflyer12 wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

What would be the secondary plateform is the US for the following airports in TATL flights configuration :
MIA => FLL or PBI?
ORD => ?
IAD => ?
BOS => ?
ATL => ?
DTW => ?

Thanks for your feedbacks.

Hah hah! IAD is the secondary airport... for DCA!

DTW doesn't need a secondary airport. It has ample capacity. They'd be happy to give you two gates and let you start a dozen flights next month.

One could argue that the secondary airports for DTW are YQG and FNT. DTW isn't all that excited about having people invade Delta country. They aren't turning anyone away but they are not rolling out the red carpet either.

PVD is 55 miles from Boston and has direct rail, bus, and highway access right from the airport. Yes I’m biased but it is certainly not too far and certainly is a very suitable alternative to BOS.

MCO-SFB is a prime example. TPA and soon PIE will be ready for TATL

A380MSN004 wrote:

I agree for Europe plateform.

For the US, very inteesting thank you.
I've checked them all,
Long Island is interesting.
Atlantic City => Pass, it's super too far
Providence => too far
Rockforst => Super far
Balimore => Well done! And here same question, for ppl living in this area, is this better to fly from Dulles or Baltimore instead?

Thanks for your feedback,

Huh? Pvd too far? It can be reached in 45mins or so and has direct rail service to downtown Boston on bostons own public transportation system.

Everybody in the area considers it a legitimate alternative.

MIflyer12 wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

What would be the secondary plateform is the US for the following airports in TATL flights configuration :
MIA => FLL or PBI?
ORD => ?
IAD => ?
BOS => ?
ATL => ?
DTW => ?

Thanks for your feedbacks.

Hah hah! IAD is the secondary airport... for DCA!

DTW doesn't need a secondary airport. It has ample capacity. They'd be happy to give you two gates and let you start a dozen flights next month.

What about Detroit City Airport?

N766UA wrote:

I'm not sure you're looking at this correctly, actually. Firstly, DTW and ORD are not "east coast;" the coast is a solid 500-700 miles from those airports. Secondly, while DTW may not have a "secondary" airport, there are secondary markets within, say, 150 miles of DTW, such as CLE. I think what you're trying to get a feel for is not Detroit's secondary airport, but rather the nearest secondary market to the big hub at Detroit.

So, for Boston it'd be PVD or PWM, for Washington, BWI or maybe an ORF? Chicago's secondary market would probably be Milwaukee... etc.

If a hypothetical TATL ULCC were to market "Washington-ish" flights while avoiding IAD/BWI, Richmond would be their airport of choice. They could even split the market and advertise "Washington (Richmond)" and "Baltimore/Philadelphia (Harrisburg)".

A380MSN004 wrote:

Atlantic City => Pass, it's super too far

It's not too far from PHL. Also it's less than 2 hours from EWR.

N766UA wrote:

for Washington, BWI or maybe an ORF?

God no. Norfolk is 3.5-4 hours from DC without traffic. With traffic? Forget about it. If we're talking truly outside of the DC area, then RIC would be the closest. That's still roughly 100 miles / 2 hours of driving without traffic.

Even then, IAD and BWI have plenty of capacity. I lived in RIC for over 15 years, and while I would love to see a ULCC flight to Europe, it would struggle to be sustainable outside of a less-than-daily, seasonal service. The airline may as well serve just IAD or BWI instead, and be all but guaranteed full airplanes with good yields. RIC is a decently sized city with an affluent population, but its proximity to IAD makes it too easy to drive for intl flights.

vatveng wrote:

If a hypothetical TATL ULCC were to market "Washington-ish" flights while avoiding IAD/BWI, Richmond would be their airport of choice. They could even split the market and advertise "Washington (Richmond)" and "Baltimore/Philadelphia (Harrisburg)".

Calling it Washington (Richmond) would be a flat out lie! Maybe if Richmond was actually located in Fredericksburg they could get away with it, but that would even be a stretch for Ryanair! 100 miles is just too far to pull that off.

Wilmington, DE for PHL - Deceased in mid-2015.

How about

KPWN
KMHT
KALB
KPSM
KISP

PVD757 wrote:

PVD is 55 miles from Boston and has direct rail, bus, and highway access right from the airport. Yes I’m biased but it is certainly not too far and certainly is a very suitable alternative to BOS.

Interesting. Rail is direct from Boston to PVD Airport? Do you know how long is the ride and how much it cost the ticket?

Thanks,

A380MSN004 wrote:

Interesting. Rail is direct from Boston to PVD Airport? Do you know how long is the ride and how much it cost the ticket?

Thanks,

https://cdn.mbtace.com/sites/default/fi ... -11-20.pdf
One-way ticket from Boston South Station is $12 and stops right in front of the airport terminal. Trains run Mon-Fri.

At the rate things are going, I'm surprised Richmond isn't being marketed as "Washington DC". Skybus tried to market Chattanooga as "Atlanta" about 10 years ago.

A380MSN004 wrote:

PVD757 wrote:

PVD is 55 miles from Boston and has direct rail, bus, and highway access right from the airport. Yes I’m biased but it is certainly not too far and certainly is a very suitable alternative to BOS.

Interesting. Rail is direct from Boston to PVD Airport? Do you know how long is the ride and how much it cost the ticket?

Thanks,

Yes, there are 10 weekday roundtrip trains from South Station Boston right to PVD airport. Takes about 1:20 minutes and is $12 one-way. There is also 7 daily buses per day as well.

PVD757 wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

PVD757 wrote:

PVD is 55 miles from Boston and has direct rail, bus, and highway access right from the airport. Yes I’m biased but it is certainly not too far and certainly is a very suitable alternative to BOS.

Interesting. Rail is direct from Boston to PVD Airport? Do you know how long is the ride and how much it cost the ticket?

Thanks,

Yes, there are 10 weekday roundtrip trains from South Station Boston right to PVD airport. Takes about 1:20 minutes and is $12 one-way. There is also 7 daily buses per day as well.

What would be the incentive for a person to take a train from Boston to PVD airport instead of taking Logan? The vice versa is possible - I am sorry but no offense here. The train or bus traffic that you are referring to are the folks who commute to Boston and Providence for jobs but not for a flight to TF Green.

iyerhari wrote:

PVD757 wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

Interesting. Rail is direct from Boston to PVD Airport? Do you know how long is the ride and how much it cost the ticket?

Thanks,

Yes, there are 10 weekday roundtrip trains from South Station Boston right to PVD airport. Takes about 1:20 minutes and is $12 one-way. There is also 7 daily buses per day as well.

What would be the incentive for a person to take a train from Boston to PVD airport instead of taking Logan? The vice versa is possible - I am sorry but no offense here. The train or bus traffic that you are referring to are the folks who commute to Boston and Providence for jobs but not for a flight to TF Green.

The thread is about secondary airports not about the reasons why people would or not would use the train or bus between PVD and Boston. I was simply providing information that was relevant to the topic.

PVD757 wrote:

iyerhari wrote:

PVD757 wrote:

Yes, there are 10 weekday roundtrip trains from South Station Boston right to PVD airport. Takes about 1:20 minutes and is $12 one-way. There is also 7 daily buses per day as well.

What would be the incentive for a person to take a train from Boston to PVD airport instead of taking Logan? The vice versa is possible - I am sorry but no offense here. The train or bus traffic that you are referring to are the folks who commute to Boston and Providence for jobs but not for a flight to TF Green.

The thread is about secondary airports not about the reasons why people would or not would use the train or bus between PVD and Boston. I was simply providing information that was relevant to the topic.

Got it - sorry it was my mistake. I agree with you though - there is a very good connectivity between BOS to PVD and I have known several people who take that vs. driving.

Im surprised we havent seen more international LCCs at BWI. In terms of service and airlines, it very much feels like LGW or STN to me. IAD is LHR albeit a hell of a lot further away from city center than is LHR. DCA is LCY but 4.5x bigger.

I just flew SWF-EDI on Norwegian this past week. Norwegian is doing well there. They are increasing Dublin to double daily. Both legs of my flight were full, lots of Scots on the plane. On both legs i sat next to Scots who were happily taking the connecting bus from Newburgh into NYC and they raved about the price and convenience for them.

I think the next question will be where does Norwegian go to next from there. PVD and BDL didn't work out all that well. They dropped Cork=PVD and I'm a bit surprised they haven't tried SWF-Cork.
They currently serve EDI, Belfast, DUB, Shannon and Bergen in Norway

spinkid wrote:

I just flew SWF-EDI on Norwegian this past week. Norwegian is doing well there. They are increasing Dublin to double daily. Both legs of my flight were full, lots of Scots on the plane. On both legs i sat next to Scots who were happily taking the connecting bus from Newburgh into NYC and they raved about the price and convenience for them.

I think the next question will be where does Norwegian go to next from there. PVD and BDL didn't work out all that well. They dropped Cork=PVD and I'm a bit surprised they haven't tried SWF-Cork.
They currently serve EDI, Belfast, DUB, Shannon and Bergen in Norway

PVD-ORK is not dropped rather being transitioned to summer seasonal as is SWF-BFS and SWF-BGO. PVD-DUB is going daily later in 2018.

Midway737 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

What would be the secondary plateform is the US for the following airports in TATL flights configuration :
MIA => FLL or PBI?
ORD => ?
IAD => ?
BOS => ?
ATL => ?
DTW => ?

Thanks for your feedbacks.

Hah hah! IAD is the secondary airport... for DCA!

DTW doesn't need a secondary airport. It has ample capacity. They'd be happy to give you two gates and let you start a dozen flights next month.

What about Detroit City Airport?

Short runway. There's another thread about DET.

FLL is well covered by DY plus BA runs FLL - LGW and who knows B6 might be a player if they ever start serving England from FLL..

It would be great to see service to England and Europe from PBI but not sure if it will ever happen with FLL/MIA in the area and MCO not terribly far away.

dfwjim1 wrote:

FLL is well covered by DY plus BA runs FLL - LGW and who knows B6 might be a player if they ever start serving England from FLL..

It would be great to see service to England and Europe from PBI but not sure if it will ever happen with FLL/MIA in the area and MCO not terribly far away.

But PBI can welcome more traffic and are looking for that ?

Just flew once on this plateform

deltadudejg wrote:

MCO-SFB is a prime example. TPA and soon PIE will be ready for TATL

Wouldn't it be nice if PIE actually lands a decent domestic airline, let alone TATL service...

KFLLCFII wrote:

deltadudejg wrote:

MCO-SFB is a prime example. TPA and soon PIE will be ready for TATL

Wouldn't it be nice if PIE actually lands a decent domestic airline, let alone TATL service...

Can PIE handle wide body operations. 777-200ER size max

KFLLCFII wrote:

deltadudejg wrote:

MCO-SFB is a prime example. TPA and soon PIE will be ready for TATL

Wouldn't it be nice if PIE actually lands a decent domestic airline, let alone TATL service...

As any airport there are talks of additional service being added. We are going through some heavy construction at the moment and once it it closer towards the end. That is when the potential of any additional carriers will come up. There are apparently about 5 or 6 carriers that are trying to get in. We have very low PFCs which is lucrative for LCCs.

beeweel15 wrote:

KFLLCFII wrote:

deltadudejg wrote:

MCO-SFB is a prime example. TPA and soon PIE will be ready for TATL

Wouldn't it be nice if PIE actually lands a decent domestic airline, let alone TATL service...

Can PIE handle wide body operations. 777-200ER size max

PIE is designated for Design Group 4 aircraft, we can handle 5, which would include the 777 and 747s but then range is limited due to runway length. We could adequately handle a scheduled 767/787 in terms of ramp space and runway length. Our main runway length is 9,730ft.

Takeoff at MTOW at ISA and Sea Level (were at 7ft lol) per aircraft
787-8 (8500ft)
787-9 (9300ft)
787-10 (9100ft)
777 between (10k-11k ft)
767-300ER (8700ft)
767-400 (10800ft)
A330-200/300 (9110ft)
A340-300 (10000ft)

So we have the capability. UPS sent the A300 in regularly as well as the 767 seasonally. They never flew more than 3 hours out of here.

Some of the alternative - 2nd tier airports in the NY/NJ/PA/MD/DE/CT region are not able to handle full TATL services and some have practical restrictions as to customs facilities, runway length, number of flights allowed.
HPN - very slot restricted, short runway, big NIMBY issues, mainly for short haul to connect to the corporate HQ's in Westchester (like Pepsi) and Stanford/Greenwich, CT and not have to go to JFK/LGA/EWR then drive through thick traffic. May have customs for corporate a/c's based there but cannot handle commercial TATL, not happening.
SWF - already has TATL service, but may need more domestic flights to become a useful alternative to JFK/EWR for more than LCC's.
Atlantic City - technically has customs, but really only for personal and corporate aircraft. Not far from PHL, not enough catchment area demand.
ISP - Maybe, but may not serve a large enough base vs.just going to JFK or have sufficient Customs facilities to process commercial flights.

bohica wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

Atlantic City => Pass, it's super too far

It's not too far from PHL. Also it's less than 2 hours from EWR.

For Central/Southern NJ residents flying to MCO, FLL, or ATL, ACY is definitely an alternative airport to PHL, on SPIRIT (non-stop).

deltadudejg wrote:

KFLLCFII wrote:

deltadudejg wrote:

MCO-SFB is a prime example. TPA and soon PIE will be ready for TATL

Wouldn't it be nice if PIE actually lands a decent domestic airline, let alone TATL service...

As any airport there are talks of additional service being added. We are going through some heavy construction at the moment and once it it closer towards the end. That is when the potential of any additional carriers will come up. There are apparently about 5 or 6 carriers that are trying to get in. We have very low PFCs which is lucrative for LCCs.

That's great news for PIE and central/south Pinellas County.

deltadudejg wrote:

beeweel15 wrote:

KFLLCFII wrote:

Wouldn't it be nice if PIE actually lands a decent domestic airline, let alone TATL service...

Can PIE handle wide body operations. 777-200ER size max

PIE is designated for Design Group 4 aircraft, we can handle 5, which would include the 777 and 747s but then range is limited due to runway length. We could adequately handle a scheduled 767/787 in terms of ramp space and runway length. Our main runway length is 9,730ft.

Takeoff at MTOW at ISA and Sea Level (were at 7ft lol) per aircraft
787-8 (8500ft)
787-9 (9300ft)
787-10 (9100ft)
777 between (10k-11k ft)
767-300ER (8700ft)
767-400 (10800ft)
A330-200/300 (9110ft)
A340-300 (10000ft)

So we have the capability. UPS sent the A300 in regularly as well as the 767 seasonally. They never flew more than 3 hours out of here.

FLL's longest runway is 9,000 feet at the same elevation/climate and routinely handles both an Emirates 777-200LR from DXB at 6,800 nautical miles (PIE is exactly 10 NM further great-circle) and a British Airways 777-200ER from London at 3,828 NM (PIE is 13 miles further). With the extra 730 feet of runway compared to FLL, PIE's payload/range utility should be more than adequate for conventional/coastal TATL ops. (We're not talking TPAC requirements here. )

Midway737 wrote:

What about Detroit City Airport?

Too small for TATL service. The only secondary airport available to Detroit is Windsor, just across the border in Canada. Windsor is certainly big enough to support TATL service, however since the tax rates in Canada are higher than those in the USA it's not very attractive. Most likely Detroit, eventhough bigger, would be the cheaper airport out of the two.

Talking about Canada, there are some attractive secondary airports there as well that could support TATL service. For example Hamilton as an alternative to Toronto or Trois-Rivieres for Montreal and Quebec city.