I will Supspect G4 with the A319 to come to DET from SFB, EWR, CVG, And SouthWest with there 737-700 to Serve there from MDW, BWI, LGA.

Wynnster8 wrote:

I will Supspect G4 with the A319 to come to DET from SFB, EWR, CVG, And SouthWest with there 737-700 to Serve there from MDW, BWI, LGA.

WN used to serve DET and moved out to DTW. No way they are going back. I wouldn't be surprised if DTW gained G4 eventually, but no way do I see DET gaining meaningful commercial service. It's only future will be as a corporate hub, but the city doesn't want to even do that.

The free press had an article about it a week or so ago.

As most everyone knows, the major issue is with the runways in that there are cemeteries on both sides of the longer (but way too short) N-S runway which prevents expansion, and the E-W runway is even shorter yet.

Even if the airport was destined just for corporate/general aviation (which I would argue is the best use), now would be the time to realign the north-south runway. The neighborhood around the airport is in shambles, so you could acquire land cheaply, and you probably wouldn't get much of a NIMBY fight. However, if you wait 10 years and give Detroit 10 years more to rebound... the land won't be as cheap and NIMBY is much more likely. Given that the neighborhood is currently at rock bottom, now would be the time to redo the runways.

Of course the city has no money, and currently the airport is financially losing money... so financially it doesn't seem prudent to do anything if you look at it in the short term accounting. But again, if you look at the big picture, and with how the city's rebound is beginning to spread, now would be the best time to tackle this project.

For the record, I think commercial aviation service is best contained at DTW, but I do think it would be beneficial to have a corporate/general aviation airport closer to the city center to cater to the business folks Downtown.

Shouldn’t this be in the Detroit air service forum?

Here's a really weird thought. Southwest intended to make DET what MDW is today. Crazy huh? Detroit City Airport is a lost cause in my opinion. I wouldn't want to be near anything named after Coleman Young.

tys777 wrote:

The free press had an article about it a week or so ago.

Courtesy: Detroit Free Press

Old Detroit City Airport Crumbles As City Rejects Offers Of Millions

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2018/04/13/detroit-city-airport-coleman-young-international-airport/494461002/

flymco753 wrote:

Shouldn’t this be in the Detroit air service forum?

Probably, but I suspect this thread is a spin-off from a thread regarding Pro Air that evolved into more of a discussion of DET than Pro Air.

KarlB737 wrote:

tys777 wrote:

The free press had an article about it a week or so ago.

Courtesy: Detroit Free Press

Old Detroit City Airport Crumbles As City Rejects Offers Of Millions

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2018/04/13/detroit-city-airport-coleman-young-international-airport/494461002/

Thank you! Didn't have a good chance to pull it up myself.

kavok wrote:

As most everyone knows, the major issue is with the runways in that there are cemeteries on both sides of the longer (but way too short) N-S runway which prevents expansion, and the E-W runway is even shorter yet.

Even if the airport was destined just for corporate/general aviation (which I would argue is the best use), now would be the time to realign the north-south runway. The neighborhood around the airport is in shambles, so you could acquire land cheaply, and you probably wouldn't get much of a NIMBY fight. However, if you wait 10 years and give Detroit 10 years more to rebound... the land won't be as cheap and NIMBY is much more likely. Given that the neighborhood is currently at rock bottom, now would be the time to redo the runways.

Of course the city has no money, and currently the airport is financially losing money... so financially it doesn't seem prudent to do anything if you look at it in the short term accounting. But again, if you look at the big picture, and with how the city's rebound is beginning to spread, now would be the best time to tackle this project.

For the record, I think commercial aviation service is best contained at DTW, but I do think it would be beneficial to have a corporate/general aviation airport closer to the city center to cater to the business folks Downtown.

Nothing wrong with having a select amount of flights out of DET. As I have said Detroit needs a viable solution to the strong hold Delta has in this market and DET is a real viable solution as Delta can not run anyone out of DET as easily as they can DTW unless they were to start operations their. It gives a competitor sort of an leg up because of convenience. Also DET is much easier rr to connect to public transportation than DTW is something that the Metro area badly needs. Imagine being able to take the bus to DET from most of the tri county area rather quickly rather than trying to catch a bus to DTW. People here need to stop being so short sighted at how important this airport really is and the market it can create and I think that's something that the powers that be don't want to bring to light. look at the money spent on the Q-line don't you think that money would have been better spent bringing DET up to snuff and getting an airline to base dome sort of operation there. Closing DET would please a lot of people but it's not in the best interest of the traveling public. More options and more competition is always better in the marketplace.

kavok wrote:

As most everyone knows, the major issue is with the runways in that there are cemeteries on both sides of the longer (but way too short) N-S runway which prevents expansion, and the E-W runway is even shorter yet.

Even if the airport was destined just for corporate/general aviation (which I would argue is the best use), now would be the time to realign the north-south runway. The neighborhood around the airport is in shambles, so you could acquire land cheaply, and you probably wouldn't get much of a NIMBY fight. However, if you wait 10 years and give Detroit 10 years more to rebound... the land won't be as cheap and NIMBY is much more likely. Given that the neighborhood is currently at rock bottom, now would be the time to redo the runways.

Of course the city has no money, and currently the airport is financially losing money... so financially it doesn't seem prudent to do anything if you look at it in the short term accounting. But again, if you look at the big picture, and with how the city's rebound is beginning to spread, now would be the best time to tackle this project.

For the record, I think commercial aviation service is best contained at DTW, but I do think it would be beneficial to have a corporate/general aviation airport closer to the city center to cater to the business folks Downtown.

Folks, the problem of DET is neither the terminal, nor the runway, but it is the neighborhood. It is simply unsafe. Lack of public transportation from the suburban area and poor public transit within the city only leave the option of driving there. Conner Street, the main road the links to I-75, is an unwelcome place, with a closed-down automotive plant on the left and a dangerous neighborhood on the right. Yes, the airport and its location have a stigma hard to bypass...

klm617 wrote:

kavok wrote:

As most everyone knows, the major issue is with the runways in that there are cemeteries on both sides of the longer (but way too short) N-S runway which prevents expansion, and the E-W runway is even shorter yet.

Even if the airport was destined just for corporate/general aviation (which I would argue is the best use), now would be the time to realign the north-south runway. The neighborhood around the airport is in shambles, so you could acquire land cheaply, and you probably wouldn't get much of a NIMBY fight. However, if you wait 10 years and give Detroit 10 years more to rebound... the land won't be as cheap and NIMBY is much more likely. Given that the neighborhood is currently at rock bottom, now would be the time to redo the runways.

Of course the city has no money, and currently the airport is financially losing money... so financially it doesn't seem prudent to do anything if you look at it in the short term accounting. But again, if you look at the big picture, and with how the city's rebound is beginning to spread, now would be the best time to tackle this project.

For the record, I think commercial aviation service is best contained at DTW, but I do think it would be beneficial to have a corporate/general aviation airport closer to the city center to cater to the business folks Downtown.

Nothing wrong with having a select amount of flights out of DET. As I have said Detroit needs a viable solution to the strong hold Delta has in this market and DET is a real viable solution as Delta can not run anyone out of DET as easily as they can DTW unless they were to start operations their. It gives a competitor sort of an leg up because of convenience. Also DET is much easier rr to connect to public transportation than DTW is something that the Metro area badly needs. Imagine being able to take the bus to DET from most of the tri county area rather quickly rather than trying to catch a bus to DTW. People here need to stop being so short sighted at how important this airport really is and the market it can create and I think that's something that the powers that be don't want to bring to light. look at the money spent on the Q-line don't you think that money would have been better spent bringing DET up to snuff and getting an airline to base dome sort of operation there. Closing DET would please a lot of people but it's not in the best interest of the traveling public. More options and more competition is always better in the marketplace.

DET is not a viable solution for anything. It is in a horrible part of town. The airport is run down. The runway isn't long enough. The terminal is old and tiny. There is no money to fix any of the problems. There is no interest to find money to fix any of the problems. There is no demand to generate interest.

DET airline service is a footnote in history and it will remain so.

This is coming from someone who would love to see the airport get service back and prosper... but also recognizes the reality of the situation.

FCOTSTW wrote:

kavok wrote:

As most everyone knows, the major issue is with the runways in that there are cemeteries on both sides of the longer (but way too short) N-S runway which prevents expansion, and the E-W runway is even shorter yet.

Even if the airport was destined just for corporate/general aviation (which I would argue is the best use), now would be the time to realign the north-south runway. The neighborhood around the airport is in shambles, so you could acquire land cheaply, and you probably wouldn't get much of a NIMBY fight. However, if you wait 10 years and give Detroit 10 years more to rebound... the land won't be as cheap and NIMBY is much more likely. Given that the neighborhood is currently at rock bottom, now would be the time to redo the runways.

Of course the city has no money, and currently the airport is financially losing money... so financially it doesn't seem prudent to do anything if you look at it in the short term accounting. But again, if you look at the big picture, and with how the city's rebound is beginning to spread, now would be the best time to tackle this project.

For the record, I think commercial aviation service is best contained at DTW, but I do think it would be beneficial to have a corporate/general aviation airport closer to the city center to cater to the business folks Downtown.

Folks, the problem of DET is neither the terminal, nor the runway, but it is the neighborhood. It is simply unsafe. Lack of public transportation from the suburban area and poor public transit within the city only leave the option of driving there. Conner Street, the main road the links to I-75, is an unwelcome place, with a closed-down automotive plant on the left and a dangerous neighborhood on the right. Yes, the airport and its location have a stigma hard to bypass...

Another factor is that, with the exception of the Grosse Pointes, the suburbs where high yield business travellers live all have better access to DTW than to DET. The drive is about the same from Birmingham and Bloomfield Hills to DET as it is to DTW, but from West Bloomfield, Plymouth, Northville, and Farmington Hills, DTW is faster to drive to. This is another reason why DET will continue to struggle.

PTK is closer than DTW to these places, but M-59 is an undivided road with lots of stoplights between Telegraph Road and PTK, so even PTK isn't much faster to get to than DTW. In the 1970s, there were plans to upgrade M-59 to a freeway all the way to I-96, extend I-275 north to meet I-75 in Clarkston, and extend the Lodge Freeway further northwest to meet the northern extension of I-275, but none of these freeways were ever built. If they had been built, then access to PTK (and FNT) from the wealthy northwest suburbs would have been a lot better.

Ok, I posted this in the DTW thread.

Its simply not a viable option. I too would love to see it resurrected, but I'm a realist too..

There isn't a viable justification for scheduled or chartered passenger travel at DET when DTW isn't at capacity for passenger travel and Pontiac is an already established GA airport with excellent facilities. Bear in mind also that most of the GA travel, aside from flight schools, comes mostly from companies in the areas towards the northern suburbs of Detroit, i.e. Pontiac territory.
DET would require much more than 4 million to keep it running efficiently on a continuous basis. That figure might help to start but there would need to be a continuing investment from the city to keep it running smoothly.
The city is busy getting back on its feet and I doubt that they would want to invest money into something that really, lets be honest, wont bring back a terrific rate of return very soon. Detroit could really use the money to invest in things it honestly needs, such as replacing fire trucks, education facilities and local improvements to streets and other public issues.

I get what you're saying, and perhaps in a city where they have more funds and a different requirement for air travel, both GA and Civil Aviation, then maybe it would be a different matter, however in our city I feel that not investing in DET would be more prudent. Also, one last point. Think about how the recent financial history of Detroit has included bankruptcy, financial oversight and corruption charges for previous officials, If DET was to have a large amount of money pumped into it, without some sort of guarantee of a return on that investment then there probably would be questions raised and it could be seen as poor financial decision making for a city that is, basically learning how to walk financially again..

Basically... Tell me who will continuously finance the airports rejuvenation when the city clearly doesn't want to and no airline will want to plough the money into it. Hell, I wouldn't even see any of the current heavy Detroit investors interested in putting money into it. DTW has world class facilities for civil Aviation and Pontiac provides excellent facilities for GA/biz traffic... Its cut and dry economics.

You show me an airline who could use it as a way to compete with Delta and I'll show you an airline who has a boardroom full of people with no clue how to handle money.

I'm sorry, its sad but true.

And one last thing...

This quote here by Klm617..
People here need to stop being so short sighted at how important this airport really is and the market it can create and I think that's something that the powers that be don't want to bring to light. look at the money spent on the Q-line don't you think that money would have been better spent bringing DET up to snuff and getting an airline to base dome sort of operation there. Closing DET would please a lot of people but it's not in the best interest of the traveling public. More options and more competition is always better in the marketplace.

Are you honestly thinking that the q line money would be better to bring DET up to 'standard' ...that right there is a horribly uneducated statement. As worthless as the q line is in some people's mind, it is far more valuable than spending it on an airport that is literally crumbling and has no airlines asking to use it and most biz jet traffic fine at PTK.

The q line at least transports working people to their jobs and assists with the economy now.

klm617 wrote:

Nothing wrong with having a select amount of flights out of DET. As I have said Detroit needs a viable solution to the strong hold Delta has in this market and DET is a real viable solution

That's a comical assertion. The city hasn't even staffed the Detroit Fire Department station on airport grounds for numerous years now, which keeps aircraft from landing there because of insurance concerns. The airport will close permanently and the land will be used for an industrial park or something of the like - you know that as well as anyone.

Please don't make extraneous threads - DTW air service thread exists.

DTW managing board wants to protect DTW's position as sole airport. DTW isn't over capacity and has no need for a second airport beyond things like Allegiant wanting cheap landing fees. DTW isn't too expensive to operate at. DET will not get service but if there is an airport outside of the jurisdiction of the DTW/DET management that could support passenger flights it would technically be feasible

What about YIP?

Can this be merged with Detroit thread? It will the usual suspects anyway, one consolidated DTW+YIP+DET thread means less repetition, less cleanup.

flymco753 wrote:

Shouldn’t this be in the Detroit air service forum?

jubguy3 wrote:

Please don't make extraneous threads - DTW air service thread exists.

With all due respect: I am reading this thread because I didn't know Detroit had a second airport. I don't check endless threads about air services far from my normal concerns. So I think a new thread about a specific Detroit issue is not so unnecessary.

FCOTSTW wrote:

kavok wrote:

As most everyone knows, the major issue is with the runways in that there are cemeteries on both sides of the longer (but way too short) N-S runway which prevents expansion, and the E-W runway is even shorter yet.

Even if the airport was destined just for corporate/general aviation (which I would argue is the best use), now would be the time to realign the north-south runway. The neighborhood around the airport is in shambles, so you could acquire land cheaply, and you probably wouldn't get much of a NIMBY fight. However, if you wait 10 years and give Detroit 10 years more to rebound... the land won't be as cheap and NIMBY is much more likely. Given that the neighborhood is currently at rock bottom, now would be the time to redo the runways.

Of course the city has no money, and currently the airport is financially losing money... so financially it doesn't seem prudent to do anything if you look at it in the short term accounting. But again, if you look at the big picture, and with how the city's rebound is beginning to spread, now would be the best time to tackle this project.

For the record, I think commercial aviation service is best contained at DTW, but I do think it would be beneficial to have a corporate/general aviation airport closer to the city center to cater to the business folks Downtown.

Folks, the problem of DET is neither the terminal, nor the runway, but it is the neighborhood. It is simply unsafe. Lack of public transportation from the suburban area and poor public transit within the city only leave the option of driving there. Conner Street, the main road the links to I-75, is an unwelcome place, with a closed-down automotive plant on the left and a dangerous neighborhood on the right. Yes, the airport and its location have a stigma hard to bypass...

I have to traverse some pretty sketchy areas to get to DTW from my house would sure hate to break down on I-94 at 4 am trying to make a 6 am flight the bad neighborhood thing is just another none issue really. If you live on the extreme east side you have to travel through some of the worst parts of Detroit to get to DTW. Downtown to DET is just as safe.

jubguy3 wrote:

Please don't make extraneous threads - DTW air service thread exists.

DTW managing board wants to protect DTW's position as sole airport. DTW isn't over capacity and has no need for a second airport beyond things like Allegiant wanting cheap landing fees. DTW isn't too expensive to operate at. DET will not get service but if there is an airport outside of the jurisdiction of the DTW/DET management that could support passenger flights it would technically be feasible

Exactly and that's OK if they level the playing field there and don't let Delta ride rough shot over airlines that want to enter the Detroit market.

bhxdtw wrote:

Ok, I posted this in the DTW thread.

Its simply not a viable option. I too would love to see it resurrected, but I'm a realist too..

There isn't a viable justification for scheduled or chartered passenger travel at DET when DTW isn't at capacity for passenger travel and Pontiac is an already established GA airport with excellent facilities. Bear in mind also that most of the GA travel, aside from flight schools, comes mostly from companies in the areas towards the northern suburbs of Detroit, i.e. Pontiac territory.
DET would require much more than 4 million to keep it running efficiently on a continuous basis. That figure might help to start but there would need to be a continuing investment from the city to keep it running smoothly.
The city is busy getting back on its feet and I doubt that they would want to invest money into something that really, lets be honest, wont bring back a terrific rate of return very soon. Detroit could really use the money to invest in things it honestly needs, such as replacing fire trucks, education facilities and local improvements to streets and other public issues.

I get what you're saying, and perhaps in a city where they have more funds and a different requirement for air travel, both GA and Civil Aviation, then maybe it would be a different matter, however in our city I feel that not investing in DET would be more prudent. Also, one last point. Think about how the recent financial history of Detroit has included bankruptcy, financial oversight and corruption charges for previous officials, If DET was to have a large amount of money pumped into it, without some sort of guarantee of a return on that investment then there probably would be questions raised and it could be seen as poor financial decision making for a city that is, basically learning how to walk financially again..

Basically... Tell me who will continuously finance the airports rejuvenation when the city clearly doesn't want to and no airline will want to plough the money into it. Hell, I wouldn't even see any of the current heavy Detroit investors interested in putting money into it. DTW has world class facilities for civil Aviation and Pontiac provides excellent facilities for GA/biz traffic... Its cut and dry economics.

You show me an airline who could use it as a way to compete with Delta and I'll show you an airline who has a boardroom full of people with no clue how to handle money.

I'm sorry, its sad but true.

And one last thing...

This quote here by Klm617..
People here need to stop being so short sighted at how important this airport really is and the market it can create and I think that's something that the powers that be don't want to bring to light. look at the money spent on the Q-line don't you think that money would have been better spent bringing DET up to snuff and getting an airline to base dome sort of operation there. Closing DET would please a lot of people but it's not in the best interest of the traveling public. More options and more competition is always better in the marketplace.

Are you honestly thinking that the q line money would be better to bring DET up to 'standard' ...that right there is a horribly uneducated statement. As worthless as the q line is in some people's mind, it is far more valuable than spending it on an airport that is literally crumbling and has no airlines asking to use it and most biz jet traffic fine at PTK.

The q line at least transports working people to their jobs and assists with the economy now.

Allegiant is the perfect fit for DET.

Come on guys, we all know it is going to be the new fortress mega hub of Metro airways.

klm617 wrote:

Allegiant is the perfect fit for DET.

If there were a major carrier sustaining the DET infrastructure and investment that would be needed to make DET a viable spoke for passenger airline service? Maybe. Shy of that? No - it's not like DTW has ridiculous landing or parking fees that would motivate G4 to look elsewhere for cost savings in Michigan this isn't Southern California or New York.

klm617 wrote:

I have to traverse some pretty sketchy areas to get to DTW from my house would sure hate to break down on I-94 at 4 am trying to make a 6 am flight the bad neighborhood thing is just another none issue really. If you live on the extreme east side you have to travel through some of the worst parts of Detroit to get to DTW. Downtown to DET is just as safe.

Driving 'through' a 'pretty sketchy area' via a highway to DTW is apples to oranges when compared to getting to and parking around DET. The Gratiot Avenue / Rosemary neighborhood directly adjacent DET is one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the country.

DET is a worthless set of assets. That's why city leaders aren't trying to expand it or renovate it - they know alternative uses could bring more value to the city. DTW has plenty of unused capacity, both in low average use for gates, and in runways.

klm617 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

Please don't make extraneous threads - DTW air service thread exists.

DTW managing board wants to protect DTW's position as sole airport. DTW isn't over capacity and has no need for a second airport beyond things like Allegiant wanting cheap landing fees. DTW isn't too expensive to operate at. DET will not get service but if there is an airport outside of the jurisdiction of the DTW/DET management that could support passenger flights it would technically be feasible

Exactly and that's OK if they level the playing field there and don't let Delta ride rough shot over airlines that want to enter the Detroit market.

But that's Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County's choice, not Delta's. Hub airports that work with Delta (ATL, SLC, MSP, DTW) all work very closely with Delta because it's a beneficial mutual partnership. Having a dominant airline simplifies expenses and administrative overhead, allows for long-term planning, and brings in more money for local governments, and it's good for Delta because they get what they want (prime facilities, low PFCs, and a better competitive landscape). This is why Delta's interior hubs are so profitable and successful. When airlines like Allegiant come in, they piss away public money maintaining airport infrastructure that doesn't need to exist so they can bully small airports into charging lower landing fees. It's a form of hostile indirect government subsidies for a private airline. Allegiant could very well land at DTW but their business model is incompatible with what Delta's partnership has negotiated with Detroit to build the best airport in North America and charge slightly higher landing fees. It's not Detroit's responsibility to cater to shitty airlines like Allegiant that drag down customers, airport workers, airline workers, and the tax base to find ways to subsidize airlines and bully local government out of money.

Clearly you don't care but the relationship Delta maintains with its hubs is very special and mutually beneficial. Delta makes the airport tons of money and the airport makes Delta tons of money. Right now here in SLC, Delta is negotiating to spend $200m of their own cash to upgrade the north concourse program from $740m to $940m with increased space and amenities to their specifications. They are currently negotiating a lease out to 2040. Nobody else does that. Allegiant is a greyhound bus cosplaying as an airline. DTW exists because of Delta. Without Delta, DTW is just another St Louis or Cleveland.

I agree. All runways within 50 mi. of downtown Detroit need nonstops to Tokyo and LAX.

KICT wrote:

I agree. All runways within 50 mi. of downtown Detroit need nonstops to Tokyo and LAX.

Nice joke there.

In all seriousness, the land that DET is on is better used to expand the cemetery that exists north AND south of the primary runway. The idea that DET has a "future" is on its face absurd. Shut it down!

G4 is much better served from Metro as opposed to DTW. I don’t know who’s going to drive to DET just to fly Allegiant when they can operate out of a shared use gate from the under utilized (with the exception of Spirit) North Terminal twice a week to JAX, CHS, VPS, and SRQ.

In today's times, it is very hard to build a new airport due to local opposition, high land costs, building costs, etc. A local in city airport should be preserved as is the case at DET. Chicago has Midway, Los Angeles has several nearby airports, SFO has Oakland and a city the size of Detroit should keep and upgrade DET as it could offer regional flights and maintain general aviation business. Once an in city airport is closed, it can never return in today's world.

cheapgreek wrote:

In today's times, it is very hard to build a new airport due to local opposition, high land costs, building costs, etc. A local in city airport should be preserved as is the case at DET. Chicago has Midway, Los Angeles has several nearby airports, SFO has Oakland and a city the size of Detroit should keep and upgrade DET as it could offer regional flights and maintain general aviation business. Once an in city airport is closed, it can never return in today's world.

MDW is massive compared to DET.

DET's only future as an airport is for general aviation, and that future doesn’t look particularly promising.

mikejepp wrote:

klm617 wrote:

kavok wrote:

As most everyone knows, the major issue is with the runways in that there are cemeteries on both sides of the longer (but way too short) N-S runway which prevents expansion, and the E-W runway is even shorter yet.

Even if the airport was destined just for corporate/general aviation (which I would argue is the best use), now would be the time to realign the north-south runway. The neighborhood around the airport is in shambles, so you could acquire land cheaply, and you probably wouldn't get much of a NIMBY fight. However, if you wait 10 years and give Detroit 10 years more to rebound... the land won't be as cheap and NIMBY is much more likely. Given that the neighborhood is currently at rock bottom, now would be the time to redo the runways.

Of course the city has no money, and currently the airport is financially losing money... so financially it doesn't seem prudent to do anything if you look at it in the short term accounting. But again, if you look at the big picture, and with how the city's rebound is beginning to spread, now would be the best time to tackle this project.

For the record, I think commercial aviation service is best contained at DTW, but I do think it would be beneficial to have a corporate/general aviation airport closer to the city center to cater to the business folks Downtown.

Nothing wrong with having a select amount of flights out of DET. As I have said Detroit needs a viable solution to the strong hold Delta has in this market and DET is a real viable solution as Delta can not run anyone out of DET as easily as they can DTW unless they were to start operations their. It gives a competitor sort of an leg up because of convenience. Also DET is much easier rr to connect to public transportation than DTW is something that the Metro area badly needs. Imagine being able to take the bus to DET from most of the tri county area rather quickly rather than trying to catch a bus to DTW. People here need to stop being so short sighted at how important this airport really is and the market it can create and I think that's something that the powers that be don't want to bring to light. look at the money spent on the Q-line don't you think that money would have been better spent bringing DET up to snuff and getting an airline to base dome sort of operation there. Closing DET would please a lot of people but it's not in the best interest of the traveling public. More options and more competition is always better in the marketplace.

DET is not a viable solution for anything. It is in a horrible part of town. The airport is run down. The runway isn't long enough. The terminal is old and tiny. There is no money to fix any of the problems. There is no interest to find money to fix any of the problems. There is no demand to generate interest.

DET airline service is a footnote in history and it will remain so.

This is coming from someone who would love to see the airport get service back and prosper... but also recognizes the reality of the situation.

Wow, that sounds like what people were saying about MDW 25 years ago.

KarlB737 wrote:

tys777 wrote:

The free press had an article about it a week or so ago.

Courtesy: Detroit Free Press

Old Detroit City Airport Crumbles As City Rejects Offers Of Millions

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2018/04/13/detroit-city-airport-coleman-young-international-airport/494461002/

The guy quoted in the article offering the millions to rehabilaite DET is an ex-boss of mine . I should reach out to him and say hello. Its been 25 years!

bob75013 wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Nothing wrong with having a select amount of flights out of DET. As I have said Detroit needs a viable solution to the strong hold Delta has in this market and DET is a real viable solution as Delta can not run anyone out of DET as easily as they can DTW unless they were to start operations their. It gives a competitor sort of an leg up because of convenience. Also DET is much easier rr to connect to public transportation than DTW is something that the Metro area badly needs. Imagine being able to take the bus to DET from most of the tri county area rather quickly rather than trying to catch a bus to DTW. People here need to stop being so short sighted at how important this airport really is and the market it can create and I think that's something that the powers that be don't want to bring to light. look at the money spent on the Q-line don't you think that money would have been better spent bringing DET up to snuff and getting an airline to base dome sort of operation there. Closing DET would please a lot of people but it's not in the best interest of the traveling public. More options and more competition is always better in the marketplace.

DET is not a viable solution for anything. It is in a horrible part of town. The airport is run down. The runway isn't long enough. The terminal is old and tiny. There is no money to fix any of the problems. There is no interest to find money to fix any of the problems. There is no demand to generate interest.

DET airline service is a footnote in history and it will remain so.

This is coming from someone who would love to see the airport get service back and prosper... but also recognizes the reality of the situation.

Wow, that sounds like what people were saying about MDW 25 years ago.

BAM You hit the nail right there on the head. It's in the best interest of a lot of people to get DET closed and it is the public I assure you.

blockski wrote:

cheapgreek wrote:

In today's times, it is very hard to build a new airport due to local opposition, high land costs, building costs, etc. A local in city airport should be preserved as is the case at DET. Chicago has Midway, Los Angeles has several nearby airports, SFO has Oakland and a city the size of Detroit should keep and upgrade DET as it could offer regional flights and maintain general aviation business. Once an in city airport is closed, it can never return in today's world.

MDW is massive compared to DET.

DET's only future as an airport is for general aviation, and that future doesn’t look particularly promising.

O case you didn't know there was a time when Midway had almost ZERO commercial service on flight a day to be exact. While yes Chicago is a much bigger city it's still the same concept and the people who would benefit from Allegiant service at DET for the most part live in the city and neighborhood wouldn't detour them from using the airport of there were affordable fares that allowed low income people the ability to travel beyond the borders of Detroit something Delta does not offer.

KICT wrote:

In all seriousness, the land that DET is on is better used to expand the cemetery that exists north AND south of the primary runway. The idea that DET has a "future" is on its face absurd. Shut it down!

I can't imagine anyone on an aviation forum that is in favor of less runways space buy shutting an airport down. So I love aviation and would never under any circumstances be in favor of killing an airport just for the sake of killing it.

FCOTSTW wrote:

Folks, the problem of DET is neither the terminal, nor the runway, but it is the neighborhood. It is simply unsafe. Lack of public transportation from the suburban area and poor public transit within the city only leave the option of driving there. Conner Street, the main road the links to I-75, is an unwelcome place, with a closed-down automotive plant on the left and a dangerous neighborhood on the right. Yes, the airport and its location have a stigma hard to bypass...

This is the view across from the terminal.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4091395 ... 312!8i6656

DET is only 264 acres. MDW is 650 acres. Even SNA is just over 500 acres.

There’s simply no business case here. High cost, low reward.

blockski wrote:

DET is only 264 acres. MDW is 650 acres. Even SNA is just over 500 acres.

There’s simply no business case here. High cost, low reward.

The airport is NOT a business it's a public facility.

The reality is, no airline is going to want to put their planes at DET for financial reasons. ULCC's won't make anything there, they fly where they can get the lowest costs. Spirit more than likely has a good deal with DTW that makes it cheap for them to operate out of there. ULCC's goals are to keep costs low, and to pay more unfortunately means costs won't be low.

The only airline(s) I could see are the likes of OneJet to PIT and MKE (heavy business), Southern Airways to YNG (because how many times has YNG brought this up since December?), and JetSuiteX to DFW. All of these are strictly for business travelers who can hop in an Uber Black or Lyft's equivalent and head directly towards the Downtown area. There could be a small secure lot for the Detroit end of travel.

The point is, Allegiant is going to get a better deal out DTW, they face the same competition if they would operate from DET.

klm617 wrote:

blockski wrote:

DET is only 264 acres. MDW is 650 acres. Even SNA is just over 500 acres.

There’s simply no business case here. High cost, low reward.

The airport is NOT a business it's a public facility.

And thats why the airport (a public facility) still exists and yet airlines (a business) don't fly there.

There is absolutely zero chance of airline service returning to DET. It just simply isn't going to happen. Nobody, outside of a few dreamers (mostly on airliners.net) has any interest in it, especially airlines.

william wrote:

FCOTSTW wrote:

Folks, the problem of DET is neither the terminal, nor the runway, but it is the neighborhood. It is simply unsafe. Lack of public transportation from the suburban area and poor public transit within the city only leave the option of driving there. Conner Street, the main road the links to I-75, is an unwelcome place, with a closed-down automotive plant on the left and a dangerous neighborhood on the right. Yes, the airport and its location have a stigma hard to bypass...

This is the view across from the terminal.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4091395 ... 312!8i6656

That is amazing! Zooming out, it is obvious there is absolutely no room to build any credible commercial presence there - and absolutely no practical room to expand. There isn't even room for parking.

Thanks for showing that; it makes it clear why sane people agree there is no way to return commercial traffic there.

stl07 wrote:

Come on guys, we all know it is going to be the new fortress mega hub of Metro airways.

I'm sure you remember this writeup from 2017. Since it is unlikely the FAA will allow DET to close we'll see how this Metropolitan Airways thing plays out.

Courtesy: D Business
Metropolitan Airways Plans To Offer Business Flights At Detroit City Airport In 2018

http://www.dbusiness.com/daily-news/Annual-2017/Metropolitan-Airways-Plans-to-Offer-Business-Flights-at-Detroit-City-Airport-in-2018/

klm617 wrote:

blockski wrote:

DET is only 264 acres. MDW is 650 acres. Even SNA is just over 500 acres.

There’s simply no business case here. High cost, low reward.

The airport is NOT a business it's a public facility.

Public facilities can't piss away money either

jordanh wrote:

william wrote:

FCOTSTW wrote:

Folks, the problem of DET is neither the terminal, nor the runway, but it is the neighborhood. It is simply unsafe. Lack of public transportation from the suburban area and poor public transit within the city only leave the option of driving there. Conner Street, the main road the links to I-75, is an unwelcome place, with a closed-down automotive plant on the left and a dangerous neighborhood on the right. Yes, the airport and its location have a stigma hard to bypass...

This is the view across from the terminal.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4091395 ... 312!8i6656

That is amazing! Zooming out, it is obvious there is absolutely no room to build any credible commercial presence there - and absolutely no practical room to expand. There isn't even room for parking.

Thanks for showing that; it makes it clear why sane people agree there is no way to return commercial traffic there.

Where do you draw your conclusions from DET had ample parking when Southwest served the airport and that hasn't changed. The airport also in the recent past purchased land to the west of the airport to lengthen the east west runway.

klm617 wrote:

The airport also in the recent past purchased land to the west of the airport to lengthen the east west runway.

Through the years my understanding is the land purchased to the west of runway 15-33 was to provide room for a longer runway parallel to 15-33. The link here shows pictures and a diagram of such a plan.

Restoring Commercial Air Service At Detroit City Airport

http://friendsofgeorge.blogspot.com/2017/01/detroit-2017-restoring-commercial-air.html

Secondly, here is a PowerPoint Presentation provided by Metropolitan Airways:

http://metroairways.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Metro-Airways.pdf

Time will tell if anything develops on either of these two efforts.

KarlB737 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

The airport also in the recent past purchased land to the west of the airport to lengthen the east west runway.

Through the years my understanding is the land purchased to the west of runway 15-33 was to provide room for a longer runway parallel to 15-33. The link here shows pictures and a diagram of such a plan.

Restoring Commercial Air Service At Detroit City Airport

http://friendsofgeorge.blogspot.com/2017/01/detroit-2017-restoring-commercial-air.html

Secondly, here is a PowerPoint Presentation provided by Metropolitan Airways:

http://metroairways.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Metro-Airways.pdf

Time will tell if anything develops on either of these two efforts.

Her is the article on the land purchase. https://www.friedmanrealestate.com/news ... -lift-off/