tys777
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:02 am

stlgph wrote:
ual763 wrote:
stlgph wrote:

No room in the fleet in the current schedule.

If they send a ferry flight then you disrupt say 800 people instead of 400.


Isn’t a good portion of Sun Country’s fleet meant for Charter ops? I find it hard to believe “all” of their planes are called for. Even if they don’t have a plane available the next day, make a trip in two days or something and put your customers in a hotel that night. Surely, they’ll have at least 1 backup plane? Especially on the charter side of the business.


I said it once, I'll say it again: no room in the current schedule with the available fleet.


Bingo! The only way SY gets these people out is to cancel a bunch of scheduled flights, or subcontract someone like Miami Air. They have so far chosen plan C which is cancel and let them find their own way back.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:09 am

It's a bush league move from SY, but let's not pretend that legacies don't pull moves like this too. A couple SY incidents is a drop in the bucket. But because of the nature of it, it's on the news.

ual763 wrote:
Isn’t a good portion of Sun Country’s fleet meant for Charter ops? I find it hard to believe “all” of their planes are called for. Even if they don’t have a plane available the next day, make a trip in two days or something and put your customers in a hotel that night. Surely, they’ll have at least 1 backup plane? Especially on the charter side of the business.


It's very conceivable that SY didn't have a plane and crew available for a day or two. They have a significant charter operation, and who knows what was scheduled.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:11 am

MSPNWA wrote:
It's a bush league move from SY, but let's not pretend that legacies don't pull moves like this too. A couple SY incidents is a drop in the bucket. But because of the nature of it, it's on the news.


ehhhhhh... I dunno. I cannot recall ever hearing of a legacy that has literally left two planeloads of passengers in a foreign country with no effort to assist with return (be it logistically, financially or both), even if the delay was lengthy.
Can you name an example?
 
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sunking737
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:27 am

Does anyone know how many passengers got stranded?? I'm sure since it was last flight of the season the pax got a good deal. SY may have contacted other carriers, but couldn't "buy" added lift. Remember this storm affected more than just SY. Not only do you need a plane ready, but flight crews too. Too many folks jump the gun and place blame without knowing all the facts.
Just an MSP AVGEEK.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:28 am

FlyHappy wrote:
ehhhhhh... I dunno. I cannot recall ever hearing of a legacy that has literally left two planeloads of passengers in a foreign country with no effort to assist with return (be it logistically, financially or both), even if the delay was lengthy.
Can you name an example?


I said "like this", so that doesn't mean it's the same. But that's an easy answer. It happens every time an airline has a major meltdown due to weather or operational snafus. In DL's recent meltdowns alone there were undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of passengers stranded with no alternate flights for days, an unacceptable situation for many. Their only option as well was to book a ticket on another airline or find another way home. Basically the same situation. One gets news coverage. The other - much larger - does not.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:41 am

MSPNWA wrote:
In DL's recent meltdowns alone there were undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of passengers stranded with no alternate flights for days, an unacceptable situation for many. Their only option as well was to book a ticket on another airline or find another way home. Basically the same situation. One gets news coverage. The other - much larger - does not.


You sure about that, the DL meltdowns of late got an enormous amount of attention.
2018: AMS, ATL, BOS, BWI, CDG, CLT, CMN, DCA, DFW, DTW, EWR, FLL, FRA, HPN, JFK, IAD, IAH, IND, LAX, LGA, LHR, LOS, MAD, MIA, MSP, ORD, PHL, PVD, SAN, SEA, SJD, SLC, SFO, TPA, TXL, ZRH....Loading....
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:44 am

MSPNWA wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
ehhhhhh... I dunno. I cannot recall ever hearing of a legacy that has literally left two planeloads of passengers in a foreign country with no effort to assist with return (be it logistically, financially or both), even if the delay was lengthy.
Can you name an example?


I said "like this", so that doesn't mean it's the same. But that's an easy answer. It happens every time an airline has a major meltdown due to weather or operational snafus. In DL's recent meltdowns alone there were undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of passengers stranded with no alternate flights for days, an unacceptable situation for many. Their only option as well was to book a ticket on another airline or find another way home. Basically the same situation. One gets news coverage. The other - much larger - does not.


I disagree, I don't think its the same when a major meltdown occurs with the bigger players. The big guys have staff, call centers and the general willingness to assist pax to the extent that they can do so (YMMV). In the specific case of SY pax at SJD and MZT, they got an immediate "find your own way home" response, because the aircraft were never even dispatched (they could have, those ferry flights would have left long before airport closure). The decision had been made very early. That is not the same as "we'll try to help later when we can" or "call back tomorrow", or any other actions that commonly occur.

Not sure why you think the major meltdowns don't get coverage - I see it every time on TV, pax sleeping in terminal, etc, etc.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:52 am

Jamake1 wrote:
This is where unfettered capitalism gets in the way of doing the right thing. There needs to be consumer protections in place for situations like this...as there are in Europe. If an airline takes your money and flies you to your holiday destination, they should be legally bound to bring you back. Period.


Meh I am not sure this is an example unfettered capitalism. But the cool thing about an open market. Now SY gets to see if their decision has a negative financial impact if people avoid them.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:54 am

Hmm. Probably not the best decision by SY. This one won’t be forgotten anytime soon.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:56 am

MSPNWA wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
ehhhhhh... I dunno. I cannot recall ever hearing of a legacy that has literally left two planeloads of passengers in a foreign country with no effort to assist with return (be it logistically, financially or both), even if the delay was lengthy.
Can you name an example?


I said "like this", so that doesn't mean it's the same. But that's an easy answer. It happens every time an airline has a major meltdown due to weather or operational snafus. In DL's recent meltdowns alone there were undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of passengers stranded with no alternate flights for days, an unacceptable situation for many. Their only option as well was to book a ticket on another airline or find another way home. Basically the same situation. One gets news coverage. The other - much larger - does not.


My mother in law was scheduled to come back to MSP tonight from SFO on United. The flight was cancelled. Did United refund her and tell her to good luck? No, they got her on a plane Tuesday. I think many would excuse SY if they worked around the situation and stranded people for a couple days. The weather is out of their control. But to tell them here is your money back good luck is terrible.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:58 am

sunking737 wrote:
Does anyone know how many passengers got stranded?? I'm sure since it was last flight of the season the pax got a good deal. SY may have contacted other carriers, but couldn't "buy" added lift. Remember this storm affected more than just SY. Not only do you need a plane ready, but flight crews too. Too many folks jump the gun and place blame without knowing all the facts.


What other facts are you expecting to come out? The CEO admitted to it, backed up his PR person.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:09 am

This is making the local TV news stations now. What a PR disaster for this airline.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:13 am

MO11 wrote:
Jamake1 wrote:
This is where unfettered capitalism gets in the way of doing the right thing. There needs to be consumer protections in place for situations like this...as there are in Europe. If an airline takes your money and flies you to your holiday destination, they should be legally bound to bring you back. Period.


That rule does apply to charters, but not for scheduled flights. The current US government is rolling back existing consumer regulations...


The problem is that almost all leisure trips from the US are made via scheduled airlines these days with the exception of maybe Cuba and the gaming cities, and even then G4 is making inroads. Many tour operators use SY for their airline when they build packages, so on a practical level, it works out until something bad happens, and you cannot get home. We need to hold tour operators (not just airlines) liable for getting passengers home like they do in Europe. The Mexico problem may be weather-related and supposedly an airline issue, but it became catastrophic when the airline was not available to fly passengers home. Most of those passengers may not even have funds to get home.
 
tys777
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:15 am

usdcaguy wrote:
MO11 wrote:
Jamake1 wrote:
This is where unfettered capitalism gets in the way of doing the right thing. There needs to be consumer protections in place for situations like this...as there are in Europe. If an airline takes your money and flies you to your holiday destination, they should be legally bound to bring you back. Period.


That rule does apply to charters, but not for scheduled flights. The current US government is rolling back existing consumer regulations...


The problem is that almost all leisure trips from the US are made via scheduled airlines these days with the exception of maybe Cuba and the gaming cities, and even then G4 is making inroads. Many tour operators use SY for their airline when they build packages, so on a practical level, it works out until something bad happens, and you cannot get home. We need to hold tour operators (not just airlines) liable for getting passengers home like they do in Europe. The Mexico problem may be weather-related and supposedly an airline issue, but it became catastrophic when the airline was not available to fly passengers home. Most of those passengers may not even have funds to get home.


I get what you are saying, but this isnt a tour operator situation, this was scheduled service ending for the season.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:18 am

Midwestindy wrote:
You sure about that, the DL meltdowns of late got an enormous amount of attention.


Yes. Certainly not the "outrage". I bet many only came away with thinking "pizza".

Elementalism wrote:
My mother in law was scheduled to come back to MSP tonight from SFO on United. The flight was cancelled. Did United refund her and tell her to good luck? No, they got her on a plane Tuesday. I think many would excuse SY if they worked around the situation and stranded people for a couple days. The weather is out of their control. But to tell them here is your money back good luck is terrible.


What if waiting until Tuesday is not acceptable to your mother-in-law? Same result. Passenger is screwed. That's what I'm talking about.
 
Philly65
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:19 am

Exceptional customer service! Reminds me of that Jefferson Starship song - "Find your way back...."
Last edited by Philly65 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:19 am

FlyHappy wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
ehhhhhh... I dunno. I cannot recall ever hearing of a legacy that has literally left two planeloads of passengers in a foreign country with no effort to assist with return (be it logistically, financially or both), even if the delay was lengthy.
Can you name an example?


I said "like this", so that doesn't mean it's the same. But that's an easy answer. It happens every time an airline has a major meltdown due to weather or operational snafus. In DL's recent meltdowns alone there were undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of passengers stranded with no alternate flights for days, an unacceptable situation for many. Their only option as well was to book a ticket on another airline or find another way home. Basically the same situation. One gets news coverage. The other - much larger - does not.


I disagree, I don't think its the same when a major meltdown occurs with the bigger players. The big guys have staff, call centers and the general willingness to assist pax to the extent that they can do so (YMMV). In the specific case of SY pax at SJD and MZT, they got an immediate "find your own way home" response, because the aircraft were never even dispatched (they could have, those ferry flights would have left long before airport closure). The decision had been made very early. That is not the same as "we'll try to help later when we can" or "call back tomorrow", or any other actions that commonly occur.

Not sure why you think the major meltdowns don't get coverage - I see it every time on TV, pax sleeping in terminal, etc, etc.


I concur, I cannot think of one situation when a major carrier has done anything like this. It make take a few days but they at least make an effort to get their passenger to the destnation. Not only did SY not provide a flight many of the passengers found this out on facebook since SY had no staff assisting pax at the outstations and their call centers literally were not answering the phones (and closed at 6 PM on Saturday - what airline closes their call center during a major IRROPS event when it is the only way passengers can be rebooked!!!). SY is rightfully being dragged for filth...
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:21 am

usdcaguy wrote:

The problem is that almost all leisure trips from the US are made via scheduled airlines these days with the exception of maybe Cuba and the gaming cities, and even then G4 is making inroads. Many tour operators use SY for their airline when they build packages, so on a practical level, it works out until something bad happens, and you cannot get home. We need to hold tour operators (not just airlines) liable for getting passengers home like they do in Europe. The Mexico problem may be weather-related and supposedly an airline issue, but it became catastrophic when the airline was not available to fly passengers home. Most of those passengers may not even have funds to get home.


Minor nitpick, but SY themselves is the predominant tour operator for the pax on these flights, particularly a place like MZT with resorts which actively court them. So really, the lack of consumer protections be it tour operator or airline, in this case, is moot.
Also, probably a stretch to say that most passengers may not have funds to return - but clearly, its a major and jarring unexpected expense, and stress.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:26 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
You sure about that, the DL meltdowns of late got an enormous amount of attention.


Yes. Certainly not the "outrage". I bet many only came away with thinking "pizza".

Elementalism wrote:
My mother in law was scheduled to come back to MSP tonight from SFO on United. The flight was cancelled. Did United refund her and tell her to good luck? No, they got her on a plane Tuesday. I think many would excuse SY if they worked around the situation and stranded people for a couple days. The weather is out of their control. But to tell them here is your money back good luck is terrible.


What if waiting until Tuesday is not acceptable to your mother-in-law? Same result. Passenger is screwed. That's what I'm talking about.


It is not the same result at all. The airline made their best effort to get her home. Not strand her in SFO and tell her to figure it out.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:49 am

Elementalism wrote:
It is not the same result at all. The airline made their best effort to get her home. Not strand her in SFO and tell her to figure it out.


Unless you know the inner workings of UA, that cannot be determined. In fact, I know they didn't do "everything" they could. If they had, she would have arrived in MSP this afternoon. UA was effectively telling her to pound sand.

Same result. Similar poor service. One gets publicity for the manner of the failure. The other can get away with it.
 
n7371f
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:53 am

You've got the former No 2 at Allegiant calling the shots now. That's really all that needs to be said.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:04 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
It is not the same result at all. The airline made their best effort to get her home. Not strand her in SFO and tell her to figure it out.


Unless you know the inner workings of UA, that cannot be determined. In fact, I know they didn't do "everything" they could. If they had, she would have arrived in MSP this afternoon. UA was effectively telling her to pound sand.

Same result. Similar poor service. One gets publicity for the manner of the failure. The other can get away with it.


Same result? United is getting her home Tuesday. SY will not be getting their passengers home at any time.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:16 am

Elementalism wrote:
Same result? United is getting her home Tuesday. SY will not be getting their passengers home at any time.


Again, you're not considering that a 3-day delay is not acceptable to many people. If SY brought down a plane three days later, there would still be a story here, even though it's the same result.
 
thaiflyer
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:34 am

stlgph wrote:
ual763 wrote:
stlgph wrote:

No room in the fleet in the current schedule.

If they send a ferry flight then you disrupt say 800 people instead of 400.


Isn’t a good portion of Sun Country’s fleet meant for Charter ops? I find it hard to believe “all” of their planes are called for. Even if they don’t have a plane available the next day, make a trip in two days or something and put your customers in a hotel that night. Surely, they’ll have at least 1 backup plane? Especially on the charter side of the business.


I said it once, I'll say it again: no room in the current schedule with the available fleet.


If you don't have the capacity yourself you hire a fricking charter plane to get the people back home.
You don't leave that amount of people stranded in a foreign country and put up your middle finger to them.
 
jordanh
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:34 am

Elementalism wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
ehhhhhh... I dunno. I cannot recall ever hearing of a legacy that has literally left two planeloads of passengers in a foreign country with no effort to assist with return (be it logistically, financially or both), even if the delay was lengthy. Can you name an example?

I said "like this", so that doesn't mean it's the same. But that's an easy answer. It happens every time an airline has a major meltdown due to weather or operational snafus. In DL's recent meltdowns alone there were undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of passengers stranded with no alternate flights for days, an unacceptable situation for many. Their only option as well was to book a ticket on another airline or find another way home. Basically the same situation. One gets news coverage. The other - much larger - does not.

My mother in law was scheduled to come back to MSP tonight from SFO on United. The flight was cancelled. Did United refund her and tell her to good luck? No, they got her on a plane Tuesday. I think many would excuse SY if they worked around the situation and stranded people for a couple days. The weather is out of their control. But to tell them here is your money back good luck is terrible.


I am surprised that even a smaller airline doesn't have a provision for getting passengers back as soon as possible under these conditions. And, no - getting back two days late because a severe weather event is not the same as being left behind with no help from the airline.

MSPNWA wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
It is not the same result at all. The airline made their best effort to get her home. Not strand her in SFO and tell her to figure it out.

Unless you know the inner workings of UA, that cannot be determined. In fact, I know they didn't do "everything" they could. If they had, she would have arrived in MSP this afternoon. UA was effectively telling her to pound sand. Same result. Similar poor service. One gets publicity for the manner of the failure. The other can get away with it.


It is not the same result: the lady got home. The airline got her home. If you don't understand that difference... you have made up your mind, and don't want to be confused with the facts.

MSPNWA wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
Same result? United is getting her home Tuesday. SY will not be getting their passengers home at any time.

Again, you're not considering that a 3-day delay is not acceptable to many people. If SY brought down a plane three days later, there would still be a story here, even though it's the same result.


A 3-day delay may seem "unacceptable" to you, but when the alternative is a permanent delay... it is definitely not "the same result".

wjcandee wrote:
If SunJet Airlines couldn't do the flight, I would arrive at the gate to find a Sun Pacific 727, an all-white MD80 (from some shady 2-plane carrier whose name I forgot but which the FAA shut down for overweight violations)...


That "all-white MD80" might have been from a charter operator I think was called "Av Atlantique"; I wound up on one of their flights from PVR back in the late 80's. I tried to Google that name, but didn't find anything; maybe someone can help.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:46 am

jordanh wrote:
It is not the same result: the lady got home. The airline got her home. If you don't understand that difference... you have made up your mind, and don't want to be confused with the facts.


You also are assuming that not doing everything possible for a customer and telling them to pound sand for ~3 days is acceptable and somehow a virtuous solution. No, it's absolutely the same result if that delay is unacceptable to the passenger (which for that many days would likely be a very significant percentage). Saying it's otherwise is simply ignoring all logic. The passenger is screwed. Their option is to either take the long delay and its associated costs, or find alternative transportation and its associated costs. The only major difference here is that SY has been more public with their refusal to offer the first option. The end result for a significant percentage of the passengers - if not most - is option 2, the same result. So I challenge you to come up with facts to refute that logic. Simply typing random words isn't facts or logic.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:47 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
Same result? United is getting her home Tuesday. SY will not be getting their passengers home at any time.


Again, you're not considering that a 3-day delay is not acceptable to many people. If SY brought down a plane three days later, there would still be a story here, even though it's the same result.


Oh I am considering it. However an airline gets a pass if they make the effort to get people home after a record setting blizzard. Stranding them and tell them to figure it out equals no pass. And Sun Country would also get the benefit of the doubt if they brought a plane down 2 days later to get these people.
 
MNgopher
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:47 am

I think a lot of the folks who post that there is no story here are the same folks who don't understand how this airline managed to survive in the shadow of Northwest for all those years...

Folks in Minnesota flew Sun Country as they knew them as the very hometown airline that was focused on the leisure travel market. Not only that, but they were one of those businesses you felt like you could count on because they were essentially a business of hometown folks, and they did the right thing. Historically, it was a strong group of management and employees that brought this thing out the ashes of earlier airlines, and kept it alive through many different incarnations. And for the longest time, it was a can do attitude that kept them going and people coming back to fly them.

I know, I remember the last time something like this happened. Remember when the Denver airport shut down for the blizzard right before christmas? Sun Country cancelled multiple MSP-DEN flights as a result of the closure. Instead of just saying too bad, they scheduled multiple flights that all left MSP within a 1/2hour of each other carrying those of us who had flights cancelled, and we were some of the earlier flights that made it into DIA the day it reopened. I had friends on the major carriers that were offered flights days later (everything is full around the holidays, no surprise). But Sun Country got us there on their own metal, and took care of folks.

In this case, that goodwill is gone. Anyone who knows where current company leadership is from (allegiant) isn't surprised at any of this. At the end of the day, as soon as the new direction came out trying to be a Spirit or Frontier, the writing was on the wall that something like this would happen and bite them. And here it is...

Is what they are doing legal? Sure. The right thing to do? What an airline with can do management and employees would do? Not in a million years... And if folks in this area needed another reminder this isn't the sun country of the old days, this should do it... and folks here tend not to forget...

A shame - it was nice having a local airline I enjoyed flying, but those days are gone...
 
MNgopher
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:51 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
Same result? United is getting her home Tuesday. SY will not be getting their passengers home at any time.


Again, you're not considering that a 3-day delay is not acceptable to many people. If SY brought down a plane three days later, there would still be a story here, even though it's the same result.


Can you not see the difference? One airline is saying, yes, we realize it is inconvenient, but here is an option to get you home on the fare you paid 3 days later.

The other saying, sorry, figure it out yourself. Good luck.

Yep, if it was a few days later, there would be a story - but they wouldn't have just walked away. Any attempt to do right would have been better than "we're out".
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:54 am

MNgopher wrote:
Can you not see the difference? One airline is saying, yes, we realize it is inconvenient, but here is an option to get you home on the fare you paid 3 days later.

The other saying, sorry, figure it out yourself. Good luck.

Yep, if it was a few days later, there would be a story - but they wouldn't have just walked away. Any attempt to do right would have been better than "we're out".


I just told you the difference. You even quoted it. Read my posts. I said the real "news" story here is the manner of delivery, so to speak. There's countless numbers of travelers every year that have the same effective screwing from the airlines. But they are not a story because of the manner of delivery. This is buzz-worthy only for its public coldness.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:04 am

MSPNWA wrote:
MNgopher wrote:
Can you not see the difference? One airline is saying, yes, we realize it is inconvenient, but here is an option to get you home on the fare you paid 3 days later.

The other saying, sorry, figure it out yourself. Good luck.

Yep, if it was a few days later, there would be a story - but they wouldn't have just walked away. Any attempt to do right would have been better than "we're out".


I just told you the difference. You even quoted it. Read my posts. I said the real "news" story here is the manner of delivery, so to speak. There's countless numbers of travelers every year that have the same effective screwing from the airlines. But they are not a story because of the manner of delivery. This is buzz-worthy only for its public coldness.


I have no idea why you insist on being obtuse. I really don't.
I've read many of your posts in the past, and the lingering impression is: "wow, that dude really does not like Delta" . All fine, I don't really care for Delta either.

But really - why is it so important for you to insist that any level of effort for an airline (doesn't matter which one) to make good on fulfilling a travel commitment (particularly for international vacationers in a small "outstation") REGARDLESS of your assessment of what might be "acceptable delay", is the equivalent of the immediate refusal to make any effort ?

Those two responses clearly are not the same thing.... why do you make such a tortured effort to insist they are the same? One is trying, the other is not. It's quite black and white. No one - not you, not I , have any ability to decide for the individual passengers affected what is "acceptable". But that isn't what is in question - its the complete lack of effort on SY's part; the obvious valuation of dollars over customer goodwill. That's the point; that's the difference.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:39 am

stlgph wrote:
I said it once, I'll say it again: no room in the current schedule with the available fleet.


I, at least, am perfectly-happy to accept that as the case. They planned to end for the season, and committed the asset to something else. Got it.

But I think you should consider that there is plenty of available lift out there for subservice. Just a few: BSK, SWQ, Kaiser, G4, and on and on. Miami Air, for example, does a decent amount of short-notice government work, and can generally be wheel-up in a matter of hours.
 
jordanh
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:30 am

MSPNWA wrote:
. Simply typing random words isn't facts or logic.


So are clearly a minority of one here... but you do stick to your illogical argument.

Perhaps someone should tell you... "Simply typing random words isn't facts or logic".
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:33 am

jordanh wrote:
That "all-white MD80" might have been from a charter operator I think was called "Av Atlantique"; I wound up on one of their flights from PVR back in the late 80's. I tried to Google that name, but didn't find anything; maybe someone can help.


I did a little research, and I actually ran across a post of mine from 12 years ago where I described the Dancer Airline stuff in almost exactly the same words. Creepy. Someone responded that the airline was likely Eagle, which did some subservice for SunJet. And that's true, Eagle did do some for SunJet, and I remember N500TR with the "Private Jet" logo on it (which I initially didn't understand at the time; I thought was this somebody's private jet -- like when you see busses that say Private Coach on the destination board -- or just a really lame name?). But these were all-white, no markings, and said something by the door in pretty-big lettering like "Operated for XXX Airlines Under Agreement With YYY Airlines". At the time of my post 12 years ago, I remembered the name "Great American Airways" being part of that, either the operator or the operated for. Eagle might have been in there, too, but I feel like it was somebody else. And N500TR in an earlier or later paint scheme was indeed operated for Great American at one point. And I see an article from 1997 in the LA Times about the FAA grounding Target Airways, Ltd d/b/a Great American Airways, so maybe that's what I'm remembering. Great American is also listed as a carrier operating for World Technology Systems, which was the public charter operator for SunJet and Myrtle Beach Jet Express, and also as having wet-leased its two MD80s to Air Jamaica at one point. It was shut down according to the LA Times when a "whistleblower" or "disgruntled employee" caused an FAA inspection, which found either sloppy recordkeeping or out-and-out falsification of things like duty hours, etc. The FAA considered it the latter and pulled the certificate. I seem to remember something from the time about falsifying weight and balance reports because they were intentionally doing overweight takeoffs; all those tubs of dancer stuff weren't pulled off to make way for fuel; the aircraft apparently carried both. This probably explained what I remember thinking at the time was comparatively-long takeoff runs at EWR (i.e. compared to other MD80s flying the same route). Or not.
 
jordanh
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:34 am

FlyHappy wrote:
I have no idea why you insist on being obtuse. I really don't.
I've read many of your posts in the past, and the lingering impression is: "wow, that dude really does not like Delta" . All fine, I don't really care for Delta either.


Perhaps one obtuse poster got booted from his cush union position at NW and went to SY... to make excuses for them...that would explain a lot...

...just speculating... ;)
 
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XAM2175
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:46 am

I may have missed some information to the contrary but, assuming I haven't, where has it been said in the UA example that the rebook-for-three-days-later was the absolute best they could do?

From what I can see it was the first level of effort from UA with which the customer was satisfied. Perhaps if they'd asked for more, UA would have offered a day earlier, or come up with an interline booking. Equally they might not have, but we don't have the complete picture there.

On the other hand, we have it here in no-uncertain-terms that the absolute best SY were prepared to do here was nothing at all.

I'd also argue there's a level of customer preference involved that might lead to different perceptions and feelings about the airline's response. For the passenger with a place to be and a very definite need to be there on time, a rebooking into a last-row middle-seat on a three-sector itinerary that ends up only costing a few hours will probably be preferable to tomorrow or the day after, but to a holiday traveller stuck as a result of trouble elsewhere, a flight a few days down the line, a hotel, and maybe even a few vouchers might be all that's needed to keep the woes at bay.

Can't think of any group of people though who'd be overly satisfied with what basically boils down to "lol thx for the cash, hope you remembered to take out travel insurance".
 
OB1504
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:46 am

stlgph wrote:
ual763 wrote:
stlgph wrote:

No room in the fleet in the current schedule.

If they send a ferry flight then you disrupt say 800 people instead of 400.


Isn’t a good portion of Sun Country’s fleet meant for Charter ops? I find it hard to believe “all” of their planes are called for. Even if they don’t have a plane available the next day, make a trip in two days or something and put your customers in a hotel that night. Surely, they’ll have at least 1 backup plane? Especially on the charter side of the business.


I said it once, I'll say it again: no room in the current schedule with the available fleet.


So that excuses this decision? The least they could do is charter another plane from someone else. If Spirit can do it, so can Sun Country.

Outside of Minnesota, most travelers have never heard of SY and this is a terrible first impression.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:50 am

FlyHappy wrote:
But really - why is it so important for you to insist that any level of effort for an airline (doesn't matter which one) to make good on fulfilling a travel commitment (particularly for international vacationers in a small "outstation") REGARDLESS of your assessment of what might be "acceptable delay", is the equivalent of the immediate refusal to make any effort ?

Those two responses clearly are not the same thing.... why do you make such a tortured effort to insist they are the same? One is trying, the other is not. It's quite black and white. No one - not you, not I , have any ability to decide for the individual passengers affected what is "acceptable". But that isn't what is in question - its the complete lack of effort on SY's part; the obvious valuation of dollars over customer goodwill. That's the point; that's the difference.


I don't think you understand my position. You're focused on the response/public comment and operational decision. I'm focused on what the end result means for passengers. I said from the start that legacies pull things LIKE this. And they do. The "difference" you believe in is a fantasy. We just had an example of that in this thread (UA). It's not usual for other airlines have operational difficulties or complete meltdowns due to weather and/or operational failures. Untold numbers of people are told to pound sand until the "next available flight" (if it isn't ending like this one did) while the airline refuses to pony up the money to pay for an interline agreement ticket or fly an extra section (what SY didn't do here) to get people where they need to go. And when I mean "unacceptable", I mean when the time and/or money of waiting that long is not an option for the passenger. I view "making good" as coming to agreement with the customer, and if that didn't happen, only because it had no option available that would be acceptable. If you believe not exhausting all options because of $$$ or not making a comprehensive effort and simply telling people that the next flight is x days later is "making good", then we have fundamental difference in how a business should operate.
 
jordanh
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:02 am

MSPNWA wrote:
I don't think you understand my position. You're focused on the response/public comment and operational decision. I'm focused on what the end result means for passengers. I said from the start that legacies pull things LIKE this. And they do. The "difference" you believe in is a fantasy.


And you clearly don't understand everybody else's position. We are focused on what the end result means for passengers - and we believe most passengers would, when conditions make it necessary, prefer that the airline help them arrive home a couple of days late... rather than being told the airline is washing its hands of the job, and leaving it for those passengers to find some way back. That "difference" is not a fantasy.

MSPNWA wrote:
I said from the start that legacies pull things LIKE this. And they do.


Yes, you said that... so prove it. When is the last time a "legacy" airline totally abandoned their passengers, making no provision at all to get them home from a destination? Absolutely no options... even a delayed flight?

Please enlighten us...
 
Chasensfo
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:22 am

Sun Country leases several Transavia birds for the winter season, which is the high season for travel out of MSP as people wish to get away. These birds are already starting to head back to AMS and are cycling out of the fleet. As they cycle out, destinations are dropped. SY has a large charter network, the planes do not get as much downtime as one may think simply referencing the flight schedule.

Still, I'd have to think the "old" Sun Country I knew and loved would have done something for these people. But not the "rip out first class, pack coach like sardines, and start doing point-to-point ULCC flying" Sun Country. This sounds about right for the "new" Sun Country, and is the general nature of the ULCC world.

jordanh wrote:
Yes, you said that... so prove it. When is the last time a "legacy" airline totally abandoned their passengers, making no provision at all to get them home from a destination? Absolutely no options... even a delayed flight?

Please enlighten us...

Considering AirBerlin and Westjet both have(well, had) feeder carriers and large networks, I'd consider them legacies. I've seen both have mechanical cancellations on the last flight of the season to SFO, and the reaction of both airlines was "lol sorry guys, see ya". Both of these carriers did not have the interline agreements one may have at a standard legacy.

That being said, it happens. United's(operated by Skywest but with United policies) SFO-MMH was a plagued route when it started. I rode the inaugural in and out...then the next THIRTEEN flights canceled! Flights had to land on one end of the runway, and takeoff on the other, so strong winds in either direction or low visibility for the non-precision approach and the flight was axed. Air returned more often than not the first season when it did depart. Well, guess what happened the last few days the flight was supposed to operate that season? Have fun driving 4-5 hours of windy mountain roads just to get to Fresno, and then on to San Francisco. :)
 
jordanh
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:59 am

Chasensfo wrote:
jordanh wrote:
Yes, you said that... so prove it. When is the last time a "legacy" airline totally abandoned their passengers, making no provision at all to get them home from a destination? Absolutely no options... even a delayed flight?

Please enlighten us...


Considering AirBerlin and Westjet both have(well, had) feeder carriers and large networks, I'd consider them legacies. I've seen both have mechanical cancellations on the last flight of the season to SFO, and the reaction of both airlines was "lol sorry guys, see ya". Both of these carriers did not have the interline agreements one may have at a standard legacy.


I believe the original poster, along with the vast majority of the rest of us, consider the "big 3" in the USA, possibly along with WN, as the "legacies" we were comparing this to. Both AB and Westjet were or are considered to be LCC's; even your own post points out that they are not "standard legacies".

We did have one incident a few years ago where an airline similar to SY had a comparable situation; with no interline agreements, their headquarters simply called ours and purchased regular-fare (actually, we gave them a discount, under the circumstances) tickets to get their passengers home. I am surprised nobody at SY lifted a finger to help their passengers.
 
bx737
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:09 am

It was Airlines pulling stunts like this in Europe that brought in the EC261 provision. This is unacceptable in any circumstance and it is a failure of the relevant laws that Sun Country can get away with this. Under contract law in Europe, your contact with the airline is to get you from A to B and back. Contracts can only be rescinded with the acceptance of both sides.
 
deltadudejg
Posts: 190
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:10 am

We had tail 711 stay overnight Saturday the 14th into the 15th. The PIE-GPT flight was cancelled due to weather in GPT. I wonder if that had any effect or it if it was a coincidence. They did reschedule the flight thought for the next morning.
Aviation Enthusiast working in Airport Operations
 
RJNUT
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:25 am

whey couldn't they cut one of their JFK or MCO or LAX, etc. flights to accommodate this IRROP. the people in their other US destinations had better resources to rebook and "get home on their own"?
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2954
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:55 am

To be fair to Allegiant, I don't even think they would have done this. They always seem to have plenty of spares - I think even they would have organized a rescue flight...
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 2592
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Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:08 pm

jordanh wrote:
And you clearly don't understand everybody else's position. We are focused on what the end result means for passengers - and we believe most passengers would, when conditions make it necessary, prefer that the airline help them arrive home a couple of days late... rather than being told the airline is washing its hands of the job, and leaving it for those passengers to find some way back. That "difference" is not a fantasy.

Yes, you said that... so prove it. When is the last time a "legacy" airline totally abandoned their passengers, making no provision at all to get them home from a destination? Absolutely no options... even a delayed flight?

Please enlighten us...

No, you're clearly still focused on the manner/delivery of the stranding and not the end result for passengers. The end result for untold numbers of PAX every year is the same for those on this SY flight, and that's what really matters. They have to pay their way home with someone else because their airline won't/can't get them home in an acceptable manner. Until you acknowledge that, you're just spinning your wheels. I've proven this over and over. You can even read a news report from recent meltdowns. I'm not repeating it all again. It's up to you to accept reality.
 
jordanh
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:18 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
jordanh wrote:
And you clearly don't understand everybody else's position. We are focused on what the end result means for passengers - and we believe most passengers would, when conditions make it necessary, prefer that the airline help them arrive home a couple of days late... rather than being told the airline is washing its hands of the job, and leaving it for those passengers to find some way back. That "difference" is not a fantasy.

Yes, you said that... so prove it. When is the last time a "legacy" airline totally abandoned their passengers, making no provision at all to get them home from a destination? Absolutely no options... even a delayed flight?

Please enlighten us...

No, you're clearly still focused on the manner/delivery of the stranding and not the end result for passengers. The end result for untold numbers of PAX every year is the same for those on this SY flight, and that's what really matters. They have to pay their way home with someone else because their airline won't/can't get them home in an acceptable manner. Until you acknowledge that, you're just spinning your wheels. I've proven this over and over. You can even read a news report from recent meltdowns. I'm not repeating it all again. It's up to you to accept reality.


Of course we are focused on the stranding - because that is the end result for these passengers...

:roll:
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 639
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:35 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
But really - why is it so important for you to insist that any level of effort for an airline (doesn't matter which one) to make good on fulfilling a travel commitment (particularly for international vacationers in a small "outstation") REGARDLESS of your assessment of what might be "acceptable delay", is the equivalent of the immediate refusal to make any effort ?

Those two responses clearly are not the same thing.... why do you make such a tortured effort to insist they are the same? One is trying, the other is not. It's quite black and white. No one - not you, not I , have any ability to decide for the individual passengers affected what is "acceptable". But that isn't what is in question - its the complete lack of effort on SY's part; the obvious valuation of dollars over customer goodwill. That's the point; that's the difference.


I don't think you understand my position. You're focused on the response/public comment and operational decision. I'm focused on what the end result means for passengers. I said from the start that legacies pull things LIKE this. And they do. The "difference" you believe in is a fantasy. We just had an example of that in this thread (UA). It's not usual for other airlines have operational difficulties or complete meltdowns due to weather and/or operational failures. Untold numbers of people are told to pound sand until the "next available flight" (if it isn't ending like this one did) while the airline refuses to pony up the money to pay for an interline agreement ticket or fly an extra section (what SY didn't do here) to get people where they need to go. And when I mean "unacceptable", I mean when the time and/or money of waiting that long is not an option for the passenger. I view "making good" as coming to agreement with the customer, and if that didn't happen, only because it had no option available that would be acceptable. If you believe not exhausting all options because of $$$ or not making a comprehensive effort and simply telling people that the next flight is x days later is "making good", then we have fundamental difference in how a business should operate.


we are not having a fundamental difference in the views on how businesses should operate.
we have a much more basic issue.

Black. White.
Left. Right.
Up. Down.
Trying. Not Trying.

Assign values as you see fit.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2954
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:36 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
jordanh wrote:
And you clearly don't understand everybody else's position. We are focused on what the end result means for passengers - and we believe most passengers would, when conditions make it necessary, prefer that the airline help them arrive home a couple of days late... rather than being told the airline is washing its hands of the job, and leaving it for those passengers to find some way back. That "difference" is not a fantasy.

Yes, you said that... so prove it. When is the last time a "legacy" airline totally abandoned their passengers, making no provision at all to get them home from a destination? Absolutely no options... even a delayed flight?

Please enlighten us...

No, you're clearly still focused on the manner/delivery of the stranding and not the end result for passengers. The end result for untold numbers of PAX every year is the same for those on this SY flight, and that's what really matters. They have to pay their way home with someone else because their airline won't/can't get them home in an acceptable manner. Until you acknowledge that, you're just spinning your wheels. I've proven this over and over. You can even read a news report from recent meltdowns. I'm not repeating it all again. It's up to you to accept reality.


There a big difference between having a re-accommodation that you dislike and not having a re-accommodation at all. In the latter case when weather related, if the passenger has to book another ticket on OAL the service failure is due to that passengers' specific circumstances not a systematic failure by the airline. I am not quite sure why that is hard to understand...
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 8161
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:02 pm

stlgph wrote:
Q wrote:
Why can't SY where USA airport can't go to MSP for cancel flight. Why can't SY fly ferry to Los Cabos to pick it up? SY can fly to MSP close nearby like RST or DBQ or DSM stay there for a few hours or overnight then snow is clear up fly back to MSP that's it. How stupid SY management are?

Q


No room in the fleet in the current schedule.

If they send a ferry flight then you disrupt say 800 people instead of 400.

They either should have put the people on other airlines and paid the bill like a normal airline, or run a flight in the middle of the night like Delta often does and pick them up at 4am thereby not significantly disrupting the day time schedule.

This is the type of behavior that invites new laws on the industry.

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