quickmover
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American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:28 am

Did AA have any service to gatwick before buying the TWA LHR slots in 1991? Correct me if I’m wrong, but were the TWA routes sold JFK, ORD, BOS, IAD to LHR?
 
AA747123
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:41 am

American began service to LGW in 1982 right after Braniffs demise DFWLGW with 747-100's AA later added another flight with a DC10. AA did not service to LHR until after the LHR route purchase from TWA.
 
quickmover
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:46 am

Thanks
Do you know from what cities?
 
Wingtips56
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:55 am

DFW. Flight 50 sold as LAX-DFW-LGW, and AA51 LGW-DFW-LAX. Later as a Change of Gauge (aircraft change) at DFW.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). My Flight Memory: 178 airports, 89 airlines, 71 a/c types, 397 routes, 56 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,101,154 miles, as a passenger.
 
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X1GoldenHour
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:34 am

I flew on the DFW-LGW route and back LGW-DFW as a youngster in the fall of 1983. The equipment was a DC-10-30. The trip over the Atlantic at night was turbulent. I could see the light bouncing off the clouds from white strobe wingtip lights. After a few hours of sleep, it was an awesome sight to see the street lights of Ireland below, as we started the decent into England. A great memory indeed.
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Ryanair01
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:25 am

This from the Dallas News gives a pretty nice break down of what happened.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... e-memories
 
MIflyer12
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:37 am

I thought I was on an ORD-LGW flight in 1990/91.

viewtopic.php?t=1355473
 
727LOVER
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:25 pm

When the DOT only allowef 3 of thr 6 routes, AA wanted to bring the price down. But TWA held firm...and AA wound up paying 445 million for 3 routes. DL got all of Pan Am's European network (munus LHR) for 260 million.
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
flyboy80
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:42 pm

It’s weird to think that even in parts of 1980s that the current legacy carriers were much more domestic operations until their large investments into international networks acquired from the more “global” us carriers, which seemed to have lesser domestic service.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:58 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
It’s weird to think that even in parts of 1980s that the current legacy carriers were much more domestic operations until their large investments into international networks acquired from the more “global” us carriers, which seemed to have lesser domestic service.


Well prior to deregulation, Pan Am and TWA had most of the American flagged routes to Europe. Pan Am had already started its slide to bankruptcy and liquidation in the 70's. TWA had been in decline for decades when AA took it over in 2001.
 
commavia
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:02 pm

727LOVER wrote:
When the DOT only allowef 3 of thr 6 routes, AA wanted to bring the price down. But TWA held firm...and AA wound up paying 445 million for 3 routes. DL got all of Pan Am's European network (munus LHR) for 260 million.


Not sure what this is in reference to, because the $445M transaction between AA and TWA in December 1990 ultimately resulted in six LHR route authorities. By July of that year, AA was flying nine daily nonstop flights into LHR from six U.S. gateways - 3x daily JFK, 2x ORD, and 1x each EWR, BOS, MIA and LAX.

The underlying authorities for CHI-LON and MIA-LON (though, in both cases, obviously not LHR specifically) had been acquired separately, a year earlier, in transactions with TWA and Continental/Texas Air, respectively.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:48 pm

commavia wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
When the DOT only allowef 3 of thr 6 routes, AA wanted to bring the price down. But TWA held firm...and AA wound up paying 445 million for 3 routes. DL got all of Pan Am's European network (munus LHR) for 260 million.


Not sure what this is in reference to, because the $445M transaction between AA and TWA in December 1990 ultimately resulted in six LHR route authorities. By July of that year, AA was flying nine daily nonstop flights into LHR from six U.S. gateways - 3x daily JFK, 2x ORD, and 1x each EWR, BOS, MIA and LAX.

The underlying authorities for CHI-LON and MIA-LON (though, in both cases, obviously not LHR specifically) had been acquired separately, a year earlier, in transactions with TWA and Continental/Texas Air, respectively.


Commavia, when AA and Carl Icahn agreed to the London transaction, it originally included routes from LHR to NYC (JFK+EWR), BOS, PHL, BWI, STL, and LAX. That is where the "6 routes" comment came from.

The DoT, however, only allowed AA to assume the NYC, BOS, and LAX routes. PHL and BWI were sold to US, and TW kept STL. American tried to reduce the price of the transaction to reflect the loss of PHL, BWI, and STL, but Icahn held firm.

However, the three routes AA acquired were by far the most valuable. AA had a very weak presence at PHL, BWI, and STL, and it's uncertain how profitable these routes would have been.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:17 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
commavia wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
When the DOT only allowef 3 of thr 6 routes, AA wanted to bring the price down. But TWA held firm...and AA wound up paying 445 million for 3 routes. DL got all of Pan Am's European network (munus LHR) for 260 million.


Not sure what this is in reference to, because the $445M transaction between AA and TWA in December 1990 ultimately resulted in six LHR route authorities. By July of that year, AA was flying nine daily nonstop flights into LHR from six U.S. gateways - 3x daily JFK, 2x ORD, and 1x each EWR, BOS, MIA and LAX.

The underlying authorities for CHI-LON and MIA-LON (though, in both cases, obviously not LHR specifically) had been acquired separately, a year earlier, in transactions with TWA and Continental/Texas Air, respectively.


Commavia, when AA and Carl Icahn agreed to the London transaction, it originally included routes from LHR to NYC (JFK+EWR), BOS, PHL, BWI, STL, and LAX. That is where the "6 routes" comment came from.

The DoT, however, only allowed AA to assume the NYC, BOS, and LAX routes. PHL and BWI were sold to US, and TW kept STL. American tried to reduce the price of the transaction to reflect the loss of PHL, BWI, and STL, but Icahn held firm.

However, the three routes AA acquired were by far the most valuable. AA had a very weak presence at PHL, BWI, and STL, and it's uncertain how profitable these routes would have been.


I can't remember exactly how it went down, but I feel like AA did operate the PHL-LHR flight for some period of time, then either sold it to US or moved it to another city. I do believe they did operate it (unsuccessfully) for some short period of time.
 
commavia
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:22 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
Commavia, when AA and Carl Icahn agreed to the London transaction, it originally included routes from LHR to NYC (JFK+EWR), BOS, PHL, BWI, STL, and LAX. That is where the "6 routes" comment came from.

The DoT, however, only allowed AA to assume the NYC, BOS, and LAX routes. PHL and BWI were sold to US, and TW kept STL. American tried to reduce the price of the transaction to reflect the loss of PHL, BWI, and STL, but Icahn held firm.

However, the three routes AA acquired were by far the most valuable. AA had a very weak presence at PHL, BWI, and STL, and it's uncertain how profitable these routes would have been.


Okay, gotcha. I was aware of the complications with PHL/BWI/STL, but my confusion was that when the TWA transaction was announced in January 1991, it did include requisite slots and route authorities for LAX which, combined with JFK, EWR and BOS, would constitute four route authorities (not three) in addition to transferring the existing ORD and MIA route authorities to LHR.

gwrudolph wrote:
I can't remember exactly how it went down, but I feel like AA did operate the PHL-LHR flight for some period of time, then either sold it to US or moved it to another city. I do believe they did operate it (unsuccessfully) for some short period of time.


Correct. AA did ultimately go on to launch PHL-LHR on 26 May 1994 (the same day as RDU-LGW, BNA-LGW, and at essentially the same time as JFK-LHR increased to six daily flights). I'm not positive, but I believe PHL-LHR only lasted for a year or two before ending.
 
timz
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:08 pm

Looks like AA's second LGW flight was MIA-- it's not in the May 1990 timetable and is in the 15 June.
 
commavia
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:30 pm

timz wrote:
Looks like AA's second LGW flight was MIA-- it's not in the May 1990 timetable and is in the 15 June.


Over the course of more than two decades beginning in May 1982, AA flew nonstop from LGW to DFW, RDU, BNA, JFK, ORD, BOS and MIA. Some of those were served for very brief periods, and others were flown more than once, separately, over the course of that period, but the only one of those routes that was constant for the entire period was DFW.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:08 pm

commavia wrote:
timz wrote:
Looks like AA's second LGW flight was MIA-- it's not in the May 1990 timetable and is in the 15 June.


Over the course of more than two decades beginning in May 1982, AA flew nonstop from LGW to DFW, RDU, BNA, JFK, ORD, BOS and MIA. Some of those were served for very brief periods, and others were flown more than once, separately, over the course of that period, but the only one of those routes that was constant for the entire period was DFW.


MIA was very unusual because the DoT swapped AA's MIA-LGW authority with PA's MIA-LHR authority at the time of the PA - UA London route sale.

National was awarded MIA-LHR in 1970. National became the 3rd us airline authorized to serve London.

As part of Bermuda II, it was agreed that no airlines other than PA, TW, and NA, or their successors, would be allowed to serve LHR from the US. Any new airlines, or any new routes awarded to the three existing airlines, would have to fly into LGW.

When PA bought NA in 1980, the CAB excluded MIA-LHR from the transaction, but subsequently allowed PA to keep the route. PA was NA's corporate successor, so they were allowed to use LHR, but if the CAB had given it to any other airline, that airline would have been forced to use LGW.

Around the same time, Air Florida was allowed to fly MIA-LGW, in exchange for Laker being allowed to also fly MIA-LGW. Air Florida's route was awarded to Eastern after Air Florida shut down. After Eastern was taken over by Texas Air Corporation, MIA-LGW was transferred to Continental.

In 1989, AA agreed to acquire CO's MIA-LGW route along with EA's Latin American routes. AA began flying MIA-LGW when they added the ex-EA routes to Latin America.

In 1991, PA agreed to sell their routes from LHR to NYC, IAD, SEA, SFO, and LAX to UA. PA's routes from LHR to DTW and MIA were not included in the transaction. PA and UA applied subsequently to include LHR-MIA in the deal. The US DoT agreed, but at the same time said AA would get to move their MIA-LGW route to LHR, and PA or UA would be required to move to LGW.
 
jfk777
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:40 pm

quickmover wrote:
Did AA have any service to gatwick before buying the TWA LHR slots in 1991? Correct me if I’m wrong, but were the TWA routes sold JFK, ORD, BOS, IAD to LHR?


TWA sold AA two packages of routes to London, first its was only Chicago for $195 million. The second included all Heathrow flights to London which was JFK, BOS and LAX for $445 million. As an extra dividend since AA was flying Miami to Gatwick that was moved to LHR at no additional cost to AA since TWA never flew MIA to LHR. TWA kept Phl and BWI to LGW which were later sold to Usair for $50 million. TWA only retained STL to LGW. That is the full history of TWA's London routes sold to AA.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:08 pm

jfk777 wrote:
quickmover wrote:
Did AA have any service to gatwick before buying the TWA LHR slots in 1991? Correct me if I’m wrong, but were the TWA routes sold JFK, ORD, BOS, IAD to LHR?


TWA sold AA two packages of routes to London, first its was only Chicago for $195 million. The second included all Heathrow flights to London which was JFK, BOS and LAX for $445 million. As an extra dividend since AA was flying Miami to Gatwick that was moved to LHR at no additional cost to AA since TWA never flew MIA to LHR. TWA kept Phl and BWI to LGW which were later sold to Usair for $50 million. TWA only retained STL to LGW. That is the full history of TWA's London routes sold to AA.


I'm not sure that is exactly correct. I do believe (as mentioned above) that AA actually operated PHL-LHR for some short period of time before it went to US. I think it might have had something to do with the fact that at that time only two carriers (UA and AA) were allowed to operate to LHR. US was serving LGW and if they took the TW route, they wouldn't have been able to fly it to LHR anyway. Don't quote me on the exact reason, but I'm fairly sure AA operated it for some period of time.
 
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southwest1675
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:09 pm

My mom flew BNA-LGW on AA in 1994.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:15 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
commavia wrote:

Not sure what this is in reference to, because the $445M transaction between AA and TWA in December 1990 ultimately resulted in six LHR route authorities. By July of that year, AA was flying nine daily nonstop flights into LHR from six U.S. gateways - 3x daily JFK, 2x ORD, and 1x each EWR, BOS, MIA and LAX.

The underlying authorities for CHI-LON and MIA-LON (though, in both cases, obviously not LHR specifically) had been acquired separately, a year earlier, in transactions with TWA and Continental/Texas Air, respectively.


Commavia, when AA and Carl Icahn agreed to the London transaction, it originally included routes from LHR to NYC (JFK+EWR), BOS, PHL, BWI, STL, and LAX. That is where the "6 routes" comment came from.

The DoT, however, only allowed AA to assume the NYC, BOS, and LAX routes. PHL and BWI were sold to US, and TW kept STL. American tried to reduce the price of the transaction to reflect the loss of PHL, BWI, and STL, but Icahn held firm.

However, the three routes AA acquired were by far the most valuable. AA had a very weak presence at PHL, BWI, and STL, and it's uncertain how profitable these routes would have been.


I can't remember exactly how it went down, but I feel like AA did operate the PHL-LHR flight for some period of time, then either sold it to US or moved it to another city. I do believe they did operate it (unsuccessfully) for some short period of time.


American did fly PHL-LHR very briefly, or announced it, but did not actually start it. Believe in was some time between 1994 and 1996 and it was operated with a 767-300ER.
 
commavia
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:32 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
MIA was very unusual because the DoT swapped AA's MIA-LGW authority with PA's MIA-LHR authority at the time of the PA - UA London route sale.

WA707atMSP wrote:
In 1989, AA agreed to acquire CO's MIA-LGW route along with EA's Latin American routes. AA began flying MIA-LGW when they added the ex-EA routes to Latin America.


I was also referring to AA's brief stint on MIA-LGW, announced in February 1998 with a March 1998 start. I'm not absolutely certain that the flight started, but I believe it did. It was announced at roughly the same time as BOS-LGW, which I know operated for at least the summer 1998 and summer 1999 seasons.

Cointrin330 wrote:
American did fly PHL-LHR very briefly, or announced it, but did not actually start it. Believe in was some time between 1994 and 1996 and it was operated with a 767-300ER.


It did operate - for a period of (I believe) a few years years - beginning 26 May 1994.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:09 am

commavia wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
MIA was very unusual because the DoT swapped AA's MIA-LGW authority with PA's MIA-LHR authority at the time of the PA - UA London route sale.

WA707atMSP wrote:
In 1989, AA agreed to acquire CO's MIA-LGW route along with EA's Latin American routes. AA began flying MIA-LGW when they added the ex-EA routes to Latin America.


I was also referring to AA's brief stint on MIA-LGW, announced in February 1998 with a March 1998 start. I'm not absolutely certain that the flight started, but I believe it did. It was announced at roughly the same time as BOS-LGW, which I know operated for at least the summer 1998 and summer 1999 seasons.

Cointrin330 wrote:
American did fly PHL-LHR very briefly, or announced it, but did not actually start it. Believe in was some time between 1994 and 1996 and it was operated with a 767-300ER.


It did operate - for a period of (I believe) a few years years - beginning 26 May 1994.


AA's PHL-LHR authority was not obtained through the TWA route purchase. It was obtained in a separate route case several years later.

In response to AA's and UA's takeover of TWA and Pan Am's LHR routes, British Airways invested in USAirways. As a condition of the BA investment in US, the British government allowed three additional routes from the US to London. The DoT gave all three routes to AA: PHL-LHR, BNA-LGW, and RDU-LGW. The first two routes, as mentioned earlier, were only flown briefly, but RDU-London has been a huge success for AA.
 
jfk777
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:29 am

There seems to be some confusion about AA and PHL to London Heathrow, TWA flew to LHR from PHL but that route was not part of a sale to AA from TWA, never was. AA did operate briefly for about 9 months from PHL to LHR in the mid 1990's. Usair purchased a PHL to Gatwick route from TWA along with BWI to LGW in the early 1990's. Then US stopped flying to the UK because BA invested in the airline, that ended badly.

When US started flying to the UK again it was to LGW from PHL & CLT. US flew to Gatwick for years until the 2008 open skies agreement between the EU & USA opened up Heathrow and US started flying to LHR from PHL. That continues until today through the merger with AA.
 
souterra
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:56 am

commavia wrote:
timz wrote:
Looks like AA's second LGW flight was MIA-- it's not in the May 1990 timetable and is in the 15 June.


Over the course of more than two decades beginning in May 1982, AA flew nonstop from LGW to DFW, RDU, BNA, JFK, ORD, BOS and MIA. Some of those were served for very brief periods, and others were flown more than once, separately, over the course of that period, but the only one of those routes that was constant for the entire period was DFW.


I have no idea where they used to go, as I didn't use them then, but I recall arriving LGW in the mid 80s and seeing 757s and 767s for the first time ever; and they belonged to AA
 
jfk777
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:03 pm

AA DFW - LGW were flown by every big airplane they had from the 747-100 to Dc-10-30 to MD-11 to finally the 777-200ER before LHR opened up in 2008, not sure of the exact date AA switched from LGW to LHR.
 
Cunard
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:42 pm

jfk777 wrote:
AA DFW - LGW were flown by every big airplane they had from the 747-100 to Dc-10-30 to MD-11 to finally the 777-200ER before LHR opened up in 2008, not sure of the exact date AA switched from LGW to LHR.


Answer to your last question is 28 March 2008 so nearly ten years ago!
 
N983AN
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:49 pm

jfk777 wrote:
AA DFW - LGW were flown by every big airplane they had from the 747-100 to Dc-10-30 to MD-11 to finally the 777-200ER before LHR opened up in 2008, not sure of the exact date AA switched from LGW to LHR.


03/29/2008 LGW ended and transitioned to LHR
 
timz
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:12 pm

Answer to the original question: far as we know, AA's only scheduled flights to Gatwick before ORD-LGW were

DFW-LGW starting 1982
MIA-LGW starting about June 1990

ORD-LGW started 1 June 1991? and moved to LHR in a month or less.
 
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FCOTSTW
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:01 pm

The TWA routes that Carl Icahn sold in an effort to chop-off the airline were::

LHR JFK (TW701 / TW703 / TW705)
LHR BOS (TW751)
LHR ORD (TW771)
LHR PHL (TW???)
LHR IAD (TW???)
LHR LAX (TW761)

At that time, TWA did not serve good markets, such as LHR MIA and LHR SFO.

It kept a timid LGW STL
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:24 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:

The TWA routes that Carl Icahn sold in an effort to chop-off the airline were::

LHR JFK (TW701 / TW703 / TW705)
LHR BOS (TW751)
LHR ORD (TW771)
LHR PHL (TW???)
LHR IAD (TW???)
LHR LAX (TW761)

At that time, TWA did not serve good markets, such as LHR MIA and LHR SFO.

It kept a timid LGW STL


I don't think TW ever flew IAD-LHR. They "may have" in the 60's/70's but if they did it was given up during the TW/PA Euro-route swaps in the 70's. PA quit flying to Paris for example, they returned IIRC with the National Airlines acquisition. I'm not sure what you meant by "good markets" either, were JFK/BOS/LAX/ORD bad markets???
Next up: STL-MSP-BIL-MSP STL for my 2018 Birthday vacation in May. :birthday:
 
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FCOTSTW
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Re: American Airlines London service before 1991

Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:12 am

I don't think TW ever flew IAD-LHR. They "may have" in the 60's/70's but if they did it was given up during the TW/PA Euro-route swaps in the 70's


TW actually did fly IAD LHR. It was to couple the successful IAD CDG (with change of equipment to fly to TLV, FCO, or CAI).

It happened towards the very end of the '90s and it was the last added route to the LHR schedule. It was flown on L10s

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