WaywardMemphian
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:27 pm

DakotaFlyer wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
Very few of Allegiant's target market watched that or will ever be aware of it.


Not necessarily. I live in North Dakota and all local news facebook pages are shating this story. Many have over 100 comments, bot good and bad. There are 4 Allegiant stations in the state, so it is a relatively popular airline.


And when they decide to fly a regional, they look at the price and run back to Allegiant. I've seen lots of "I've flown you for years and had great experiences but no more. I want a refund for my cancelation."

Good luck with that, LOL

The problem with Joe Q Public that that they are so gullible to accept a narrative pushed on them without ever looking into it themselves. The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Did Allegiant have more issues. Yes, because of the MadDogs. Was it compounded by a bitter labor negotiation? Absolutely. Some pilots and their union decided to shit onthe bed they sleep on the gain victory. But at what costs? I like how Wonder Bread employee striked themselves into unemployment. I seem to recall how some of those turnbacks out of PIE were almost instantly known about by the media, like almost before it back on the ground fast, hmmmmm......... and the near miraculous MX turnaround after a new contract........hmmmmm......

Then look at CBS's work as shown by Enrilia.
How they qualified the former NTSB guy as an expert witness but leaving out the fact he is currently employed. They sold him as a harsh but unattached critic against Allegiant. Dito for the former career FAA laywer.

This qualifies as journalism today. Pathetic and sad.
Last edited by WaywardMemphian on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
stlgph
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:33 pm

Journalism is simple.

on the left is a good guy.

on the right is a bad guy.

in the middle is a fight.


or as Jimmy Buffett said...."if you don't want it printed, don't do it. or you will end up in the Coconut Telegraph."

60 Minutes did their job. Allegiant hid in a corner.

but as i said in the Sun Country thread, $69 to Vegas solves everything. it's going to take 200 people splattered into 200,000 pieces for anything to change.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
aviationjunky
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:53 pm

I don't understand why they keep beating a dead horse with these stories. People clearly know G4 doesn't have the best track record as far as maintenance, but people still fly them. People will continue to fly them because they're the cheapest. People will continue to fly them because they fly to places most airlines don't. People will continue to fly them regardless of if 60 Minutes, Time Magazine, NY Times, LA Times, or some podunk little newspaper, if any of them all run stories about their maintenance. If a flight were to go down, people would blame poor maintenance. If they cancelled a flight due to maintenance, people are going to complain. It's a lose lose situation. The best thing that G4 needs to do, and is continuing to do, is just ignore the media. Clearly they have enough sense to replace their aged aircraft to alleviate the maintenance issues. They haven't had numerous system failures that left hundreds of thousands of passengers stranded for days. They haven't had an aviation accident that led to serious injury or death. They use aged aircraft, and with aged aircraft comes issues. They are correcting the issue. This is just another waste of time and money on an issue we are already aware of.
LAS is Life
 
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Revelation
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:58 pm

Link to story for those who missed it:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/allegiant- ... -the-radar
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
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MSPSXMFLIER
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:01 pm

crownvic wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
Very few of Allegiant's target market watched that or will ever be aware of it.



Smartest comment of this entire thread..I totally agree, plus 60 minutes viewership is half of what it was in their glory days decades ago..

60 Minutes still regularly pulls in very high numbers, given the landscape of broadcasting as it is now. In their glory days, there were only 3 networks, so of course their numbers would’ve been easily doubled (or more) from what they are today. As far as a regular news oriented program, no one comes as close or as often to the ratings of 60 Minutes.

I watched the report and it didn’t come across to me as being sensationalistic or a ‘gotcha’ job. Many of the incidents mentioned were ones that I had never seen reported anywhere else before. A company that refuses to have someone appear on camera, instead releasing a stilted and carefully crafted press release and also makes an attempt to hide data (or in this specific case, prevent its public release), should raise a bunch of red flags in many people’s minds. The guy in charge of the FAA, John Duncan(?), came off as being way in over his head with running that agency. Most of his answers to questions and other responses were just terrible.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:14 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
60 Minutes still regularly pulls in very high numbers, given the landscape of broadcasting as it is now. In their glory days, there were only 3 networks, so of course their numbers would’ve been easily doubled (or more) from what they are today. As far as a regular news oriented program, no one comes as close or as often to the ratings of 60 Minutes.

I watched the report and it didn’t come across to me as being sensationalistic or a ‘gotcha’ job. Many of the incidents mentioned were ones that I had never seen reported anywhere else before. A company that refuses to have someone appear on camera, instead releasing a stilted and carefully crafted press release and also makes an attempt to hide data (or in this specific case, prevent its public release), should raise a bunch of red flags in many people’s minds. The guy in charge of the FAA, John Duncan(?), came off as being way in over his head with running that agency. Most of his answers to questions and other responses were just terrible.


When the media is agenda-driven and will lie to get their intended result, it's best to decline an on-camera interview. They will only twist what you say to make it worse. Case in point? The FAA person.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:27 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
The guy in charge of the FAA, John Duncan(?), came off as being way in over his head with running that agency. Most of his answers to questions and other responses were just terrible.


That, or the good answers are on the cutting room floor.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:29 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
When the media is agenda-driven and will lie to get their intended result, it's best to decline an on-camera interview. They will only twist what you say to make it worse. Case in point? The FAA person.


:thumbsup: :checkmark: Exactly. You do a concise written statement, it's harder to excerpt, although they will.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:26 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
lat41 wrote:
Triple7Lr wrote:
It’s easy to right the segment off as a hit piece if you don’t like what they have to say. Facts are facts though. At one point Allegiant had major maintenance issues but things have gotten a lot better.

I’m just surprised so many people think an engine failure is no big deal. Being in the industry I’ve actually encouraged my family to avoid Allegiant because of their maintenance history.

Oh and the fact that Allegiant refused to provide mechanical interruption information when all other airlines were willing to looks pretty bad on their part.


The carrier's record has improved likely more from the removal of the troublesome older MD80s as the Airbus 320s replace them and not really from any type of philosophical change at Allegiant. Remember the debacle with the 757s they used for Hawaii a few years back? If the FAA looks bad along with the airline maybe they should look bad. I wish CBS would have thrown in more recent information but all this predictable crying from the right about "media this and press that" is tiring.


See Enrilia's post on why some of us have had it with the media, it has jack crap to do with politics just integrity and standards. It just so happens that the majority of folks in media leans left so that bias adds to the legit criticism of their lazy ways.


As I say in regards to anything when people cry fake, bias news - if there are facts to back them up, it's not fake. There are a LOT of facts to backup that G4 seems to cut Mx costs in favor of profits. It didn't exactly paint a pretty picture of the FAA either. Had this been any of the large U.S. carriers, the FAA would have been all over it. There seems to be some reason they are turning their heads when it comes to G4.
 
atsiang
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:29 pm

Just like with every coin, with every story there are two sides... I watched the entire show last night and though it may seem sensationalist or one-sided. But to me, Allegiant has been very lucky that they have not had an accident with fatality and it's clear that safety is not a top priority within the airline. I can't understand why would they fire the pilot who ordered the evacuation? With fumes filling up the cabin, why would it take the crew 12-15 minutes to "evacuate" the plane. Why would an airline be hesitant to provide maintenance records?
 
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MSPSXMFLIER
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:50 pm

atsiang wrote:
Just like with every coin, with every story there are two sides... I watched the entire show last night and though it may seem sensationalist or one-sided. But to me, Allegiant has been very lucky that they have not had an accident with fatality and it's clear that safety is not a top priority within the airline. I can't understand why would they fire the pilot who ordered the evacuation? With fumes filling up the cabin, why would it take the crew 12-15 minutes to "evacuate" the plane. Why would an airline be hesitant to provide maintenance records?

I re-watched the 60 Minutes story online and I still feel that it was a well done piece that brought to light very serious incidents with the airline and a culture of hushing things up and intimidation by airline management. I really do hope that the fired pilot, Jason Kinzer, wins his lawsuit against Allegiant. There's just nothing about his actions that should've prompted his firing.
 
skyharborshome
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:13 pm

While most people do not watch 60 Minutes, it is the secondary story that is bad news for G4. Here in PHX (we have an airport called IWA which is a pretty big deal for G4) the largest radio news station ran 2 separate segments this morning, each 10 minutes, recapping the 60 Minutes story. One of the co-hosts said based on this, she will never fly the airline when she has considered it in the past.

I bring this up because yes many people will not even see the story on CBS, however as stated above in ND, when the locals start running it, the audience grows drastically. BTW the soundbite which was the focus is where they guy says airlines with these types of records are no longer in business because they killed a lot of people. Even if not accurate, that sticks with people.

Like many of you, friends of mine fly for G4 and I know for a fact they are relatively happy and would not risk their life or others for a paycheck. Yes the maintenance record is spotty and is improving and I find it very odd that a story would run right now making them sound like a death trap.
Fly CHD!
 
wjcandee
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:49 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
I re-watched the 60 Minutes story online and I still feel that it was a well done piece that brought to light very serious incidents with the airline and a culture of hushing things up and intimidation by airline management. I really do hope that the fired pilot, Jason Kinzer, wins his lawsuit against Allegiant. There's just nothing about his actions that should've prompted his firing.


I couldn't disagree with you more, for what it's worth.

Their own pilots are furious about the piece and are saying that some of the most compelling things in it, like Dan Wells's assertion that folks are intimidated into not reporting maintenance incidents, are 100 percent, complete and total BS. They're mad at him, and they are mad at the union, pointing out, "How would he know? He doesn't even fly for us!"
Last edited by wjcandee on Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:52 pm

osupoke07 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Now, let's look up which of the few airlines have a perfect safety record to see what airlines one should fly. Oh wait - Allegiant is the first result. Now let's scroll down to the Ds - wait what- no DL,, no UA, NO AA!!! hmmmmm.....


It
Something interestinting the Delta MD-88 that was written off from the LGA incident is only the second aircraft they've lost due to accident. The other being the L-1011 that crashed at DFW in 1985.
.


I think there might be a few more than just those two:

There was a DC3 back in the 50's that crashed due to weather
In 1960 a Convair went down with just crew onboard
'67 a DC8 crashed with just crew onboard
Early 70's a DC9 in Boston
A 727 crashed in Dallas in the 80's or 90's.

Overall, pretty darn good safety record
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flybynight
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:54 pm

osupoke07 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Now, let's look up which of the few airlines have a perfect safety record to see what airlines one should fly. Oh wait - Allegiant is the first result. Now let's scroll down to the Ds - wait what- no DL,, no UA, NO AA!!! hmmmmm.....


It
Something interestinting the Delta MD-88 that was written off from the LGA incident is only the second aircraft they've lost due to accident. The other being the L-1011 that crashed at DFW in 1985.
.


I think there might be a few more than just those two:

There was a DC3 back in the 50's that crashed due to weather
In 1960 a Convair went down with just crew onboard
'67 a DC8 crashed with just crew onboard
Early 70's a DC9 in Boston
A 727 crashed in Dallas in the 80's or 90's.

Overall, pretty darn good safety record
Heia Norge!
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:56 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
atsiang wrote:
Just like with every coin, with every story there are two sides... I watched the entire show last night and though it may seem sensationalist or one-sided. But to me, Allegiant has been very lucky that they have not had an accident with fatality and it's clear that safety is not a top priority within the airline. I can't understand why would they fire the pilot who ordered the evacuation? With fumes filling up the cabin, why would it take the crew 12-15 minutes to "evacuate" the plane. Why would an airline be hesitant to provide maintenance records?

I re-watched the 60 Minutes story online and I still feel that it was a well done piece that brought to light very serious incidents with the airline and a culture of hushing things up and intimidation by airline management. I really do hope that the fired pilot, Jason Kinzer, wins his lawsuit against Allegiant. There's just nothing about his actions that should've prompted his firing.


Here wherein lies another thing wrong with the piece, from what I have learned there was a lot more to the Pilot's firing than what the 60 minutes piece said since the story was done as a one-sided piece.

Kinzer was fired because he unnecessarily evacuated a plane at great risk to the crew and passengers even though there was no smoke, fire, or an aircraft malfunction, and, during a post-flight investigation, he refused to acknowledge his mistakes or demonstrate that he was capable of learning and growing from the event going forward.

EvanWSFO wrote:
[As I say in regards to anything when people cry fake, bias news - if there are facts to back them up, it's not fake. There are a LOT of facts to backup that G4 seems to cut Mx costs in favor of profits. It didn't exactly paint a pretty picture of the FAA either. Had this been any of the large U.S. carriers, the FAA would have been all over it. There seems to be some reason they are turning their heads when it comes to G4.


As I said earlier, just because something is true doesn't mean it isn't misleading. This is the danger of only telling one side of the story, I have listened in on the past 3-4 investor calls from G4 and they have reiterated time and time again, that they are increasing training and maintenance expenses. Not only that but they are expediting the retirement of the accident prone MD88s, at a large cost to the company, because they are now forced to limit growth this year and have even put a freeze on hiring new pilots.

However, the general flying public will never hear that side of the argument, because the point of the story wasn't to tell both sides the point of the story was to bash Allegiant.

I agree this was a problem 2-3 years ago, so why was this story not reported then, when G4 management was doing jack squat about it? Instead of now, when G4 is actually making significant steps to improve its safety record.

Here is a quote from a maintenance worker at G4 on this 60 minutes story which pretty much describes how people who are knowledgable about G4 feel about the story: "22 months ending on Oct 2017 you said it. Most of those incidents where in the early part of that 22 month period. I worked in the union maintenance committee and can tell you that the company has made great progress on this end and now it’s showing on their operation. We worked very hard to help change this culture and it’s unfortunate that this comes out now, when things are actually much better."
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highflier92660
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:16 pm

This Allegiant story contain so many stereotypical 60 Minutes hit-piece methods. First there were the tight camera shots of the bumbling FAA official who resembled the late character actor Edward Andrews (with a mustache) at his buffoon best answering interrogation questions from Steve Croft. "Allegiant Air had umpteen uncontained engine disintegrations and an MD-80 landed with only one wing attached! How do you respond?" The FAA man's answer: "Well golly, Pratt & Whitney usually makes strong engines and ditto for McDonnell Douglas airframes." Then there were the usual central cast of airline neophytes and Allegiant passengers who don't love the smell of Skydrol in the morning recounting horrifying flights. And lastly there were those fine subtle 60 Minutes touches like showing an MD-80 bouncing on touchdown, wangling its wings, touching down a second time and its reverser buckets uncaging just prior to the nose wheel touching down. Way to go 60 Minutes.
 
tp1040
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:32 pm

A long time ago, 60 Minutes used to be a respected journalism, entertaining, educational and informative.

The hatchet job they did on the Audi's unintended acceleration non problem was the beginning of the end of their honest journalism. They lied so much that Audi almost went out of business.
 
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DDR
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:49 pm

Valujet was pulling in 90%+ load factors right up until the end. And they had lots of negative press. In the end, people vote with their wallets.
 
NIKV69
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:27 pm

I saw a lot of their issues at IFP. I blame the FAA for allowing this to continue.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:14 am

highflier92660 wrote:

Then there were the usual central cast of airline neophytes and Allegiant passengers who don't love the smell of Skydrol in the morning recounting horrifying flights.



I love me some burning Skydrol and non-functional oxygen masks on all my flights. :wink2: Hope they got those fixed, functional oxygen masks are kind of important.

With that said, I've heard from Allegiant employees that things are a lot better now than a couple years ago. So things are looking up! And once they retire their older aircraft, the sailing should be even smoother (assuming they keep up with maintenance).
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:46 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
highflier92660 wrote:

Then there were the usual central cast of airline neophytes and Allegiant passengers who don't love the smell of Skydrol in the morning recounting horrifying flights.



I love me some burning Skydrol and non-functional oxygen masks on all my flights. :wink2: Hope they got those fixed, functional oxygen masks are kind of important.

With that said, I've heard from Allegiant employees that things are a lot better now than a couple years ago. So things are looking up! And once they retire their older aircraft, the sailing should be even smoother (assuming they keep up with maintenance).


The pilots fear that getting new planes that have notes will force an end to their nice perk of never overnighting as they have to making money all the time. They also think the resort and it's cost means more flying. It seems many expect a big service expansion in 2019
 
wjcandee
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:13 am

The oxygen masks were never supposed to deploy in that emergency. It just shows what listening to passengers and their idiotic expectations in an emergency can add to a hit piece.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:14 am

WaywardMemphian wrote:
It seems many expect a big service expansion in 2019


G4 hasn't kept it a secret either, they are losing 7 a/c from YE '17 to YE '18 due to the retirement of the MD88s, but for 2019 they are gaining 18 a/c! So expect a lot more growth then.
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, EWR, HPN, JFK, IAD, IAH, IND, LAX, LGA, LHR, MIA, MSP, ORD, PHL, SAN, SJD, SLC, SFO, TPA, ZRH....Loading....
 
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:58 am

I find the suggestions that the FAA is somehow coddling Allegiant, baffling and somewhat funny. I mean, why would the FAA coverup little, ole, inconsequential G4 problems but be inclined to skewer the big 3?

Is Allegiant blackmailing the FAA? Paying them off? Threatening to break kneecaps?

So either G4 actually did get a legit clean thumbs up from the FAA, or they somehow 'got to' them, and mysteriously weaseled a phony report card.

Not to worry, though. Some stray kardashian or royal will get a new hat or post a selfie and the Allegiant story will be forgotten.

In fact, I bet it already has by most.
What the...?
 
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enilria
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:07 am

stlgph wrote:
Journalism is simple.

on the left is a good guy.

on the right is a bad guy.

in the middle is a fight.

I think there is one key problem with journalism these days.
-Journalists now get paid crap
That results in two counter-effects.
1) Journalists 99% of the time no longer have any experience in the industry they cover.
2) Because journalists get paid crap they are unwilling to work very hard and would prefer to just print something handed to them by a PR company or union or other very biased source.

You would think network news would be above this, but I think once you get past on air talent the wages go down pretty rapidly.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:25 am

I read a piece that said Kroft and the producer "felt a sense of urgency" and were trying to get this story up and on the air because they believed that Allegiant poses a real danger to people. They were 100-percent suckered. Some PR person or attorney made Steve Kroft his bitch. Just like someone did to Dan Rather with the Tailwind story years ago. (More on that later.)

Maybe 3 years ago, G4 posed a danger to one's ability to schedule their vacations reliably, but physical danger, puhleese. Even the mechanic that leaked to the Tampa paper, who excoriated their Florida facility for putting aircraft out without properly testing that the problem was resolved, said that the worst that would happen is that they would end up having a higher than optimal returns to gate because of stuff that wasn't properly fixed and a few more diversions, but he (initially at least before he was coached) made crystal clear that he saw no imminent danger from anything.

Today, it was Kumbayah at Allegiant before, for some reason, somebody pressed this story out there. The "Captain" who is suing swore in a post to his former pilot brethren that it wasn't him, but most who saw the story think that it was. But who knows whose agenda is being served? Maybe somebody trying to pressure the FAA, which adopted a more cooperative approach (tell us your failures and we'll work with you instead of fine you) that actually has been working exceptionally-well. I don't know, but it's an untimely story that tells nothing. Maybe Floridians or a competing developer who are mad about Allegiant's ingenious development near an airport that only it flies into? We will probably never know.

I saw a post where an Allegiant pilot claimed that Dan Wells through the pilots under the bus. One of the most vicious trade-unionists on APC, who flies for another carrier, pushed back hard against that notion. And I think therein lies a significant issue with the Teamsters. They hate the employers so much that it's satisfying to stick it to them, even if it puts their otherwise-happy members out of work. One pilot talked about how Allegiant is finally "a great place to work", and bemoaned all the false innuendo (safety shortcuts) and outright lies (their higher-than-average aircraft usage hours {???!!!!) [Goglia -- itiot stooge], meant that they had to move the metal at all costs. This has been Goglia's line for an eternity -- put a quarter in and he'll squawk about the cariier, apparently -- so he never bothered to fact check himself, nor, of course, did CBS.

In college, I knew a woman who went on to produce for CBS and then CNN. She worked with Dan Rather. She produced, with an equal sense of urgency and highmindedness, the notorious "Tailwind" report which claimed that the US used nerve gas to kill American deserters in Vietnam. When people who actually were there at the time raised hell over the report, CNN brought in a renowned journalist (from another time) who dissected how they put together the documentary and sourced it. He was super-careful not to do anything but follow the facts, notes and statements, and made it quite clear that the sourcing was atrocious. Calmly, non-hysterically, his report schooled CNN on how such a report should be prepared, and it's not about winning or wanting facts to line up a certain way -- even though one may have facts, they may not line up in the way the reporter has lined them up, or have the significance that the reporter hopes they have. Rather survived the scandal, but the woman I knew in college was of course fired and really hasn't had much of a journalistic career since then. And last I saw, she's still trying to make the case that what she said happened actually happened. Sadly, she is missing -- or never understood -- the point.

A lot of the same is true in this report. If CBS had spoken to actual Allegiant pilots and maintenance people -- a decent cross section -- CBS would have been told that there was nothing to see here, and they were 3 years late, if at all. Instead, these hapless nitwits got sold a bill of goods and arranged their facts "with a sense of urgency" to tell an untrue tale.

And although passengers invariably think their pilots are great but are afraid that the Big Bad Airline hasn't maintained the plane properly, they are looking in the wrong place. I can'f think of a US carrier who had a maintenance failure cause a fatal incident since I don't know when. Instead, it's been either unavoidable occurrences (bird strike) or just plain lousy airmanship that has caused most of the incidents I can think of in the past 20 years. Maybe they should have focused on pilot quality -- wonder what Dan Wells would have said then?

And not for nuthin', but it's a little sad to watch the Allegiant pilots now all but admit that the Teamsters hardball tactic of playing the safety card during contract negotiations was based on BS even back then. They all kept flying, didn't they? Were they imperiling themselves? Of course not. They continued to put their families on their own aircraft. Many are now saying that they were uncomfortable doing so, but went along with the tactic. Now that they are happy campers with their contract and cushy no-overnight lifestyle, they are furiously trying to shove the Genie back in the bottle and recork it, push the horses back into the barn and shut the door, and wave off the torpedo that has turned around and suddenly taken aim at their careers.
 
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:21 am

I watched the piece. I work at an airport that is a large G4 base, you can guess the one. They have overall cleaned up their act in the last 3 years. G4 is the oddball airline out of the group, so naturally they will be under fire any time they can. It was just like Freddy Laker, with Laker Airways up against BA back in the day. We all unanimously know how the media loves to take an run any sort of news in aviation. It boosts the ratings. The Allegiant fleet is not 50% MD, 50% Airbus the numbers currently are at 31 MD80s, 36 A320s, and 29 A319s. They are actively acquiring frames from Vueling, Saudia, and Easyjet still. Plus the MD80s are going to be all scrapped by the end of the year. As has been mentioned people will still fly Allegiant, you can't beat a ticket that is sometimes cheaper than driving. They reach into communities and bring larger aircraft, which the general public like more than regional, and send them to their various bases. It's an interesting structure of an airline. Pilots and FAs like it because their almost always guaranteed to be home every night, you tell me another airline that runs that way. I completely understand too why their spokesperson waited until the show was aired to release a general statement and I agree with the way they went about it. It's all just beating a dead horse. I had also read somewhere that the gentleman from the FAA who wore the glasses was a hired spokesperson from the FAA. As well I believe in the statement from the airline they had mentioned how 60 Minutes was brought to light of the situation by an ex employee seeking money through lawsuit for the termination.
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KBUF
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:40 am

727LOVER wrote:
WAIT....did he say Valujet didn't recover after the 1996 crash?......UUUUMMMMMM


Well, the Valujet name sure as hell didn't recover.
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JackMeahoff
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:58 am

deltadudejg wrote:
G4 is the oddball airline out of the group, so naturally they will be under fire any time they can.


deltadudejg wrote:
It's an interesting structure of an airline. Pilots and FAs like it because their almost always guaranteed to be home every night, you tell me another airline that runs that way.


It is a niche airline that operates long, thin routes to underserved airports. I really like this business model. A friend of mine flew from Mesa, AZ to Appleton, WI which is 3 hours north of Milwaukee. The plane on the route was a Mad Dog. No problems and arrived on-time.

deltadudejg wrote:
It was just like Freddy Laker, with Laker Airways up against BA back in the day.


It was easy to smell a whiff of "beating up on the little guy" in this 60 Minutes hit piece. Freddy Laker would have agreed.

deltadudejg wrote:
We all unanimously know how the media loves to take an run any sort of news in aviation. It boosts the ratings. It's an interesting structure of an airline.


The cat ladies who make up the target audience for 60 Minutes hate flying. This story was like catnip for them...
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:28 am

My concern honestly is now on the FAA. In a Corporate Plutocracy such as ours, corporations seem to be able to get winks, nods, and whatever else they need, the FAA did the opposite of making the traveling public feel in any way comfortable in this and a prior piece. I think the "story" needs to detour that way.

As for Allegient, iam happy for them upgrading their fleet, and that's such a feel good story lol, that Clarke and the rest of the Griswolds and now afford to travel direct from their tiny flat South Dakota enclave right to the beach, but in the end they apparently accept the possible price on their lives is $29, or whatever a G4 ticket costs. There is too much on paper for me to recommend let alone fly G4.
Regarding the project here in Charlotte county, Florida, near their PGD operation: Everyone here is excited, so not sure where the Nimby argument started, maybe assumptions are not such a good thing.

lastly, i read in a comment above that the same MRO that nearly caused that G4 MD80 to end violently does business with Delta, does anyone have more details on that. What kind of work do they do for Delta? Other than major checks over seas i had thought DL was all in house. Thank you in advance.
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JakeWelty
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:19 pm

Found an interesting read regarding this: http://www.theavgeek.net/jnorre/op-ed-a ... the-media/
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:52 pm

JakeWelty wrote:
Found an interesting read regarding this: http://www.theavgeek.net/jnorre/op-ed-a ... the-media/


wow that pretty accurately sums up what I have been saying
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, EWR, HPN, JFK, IAD, IAH, IND, LAX, LGA, LHR, MIA, MSP, ORD, PHL, SAN, SJD, SLC, SFO, TPA, ZRH....Loading....
 
KarlB737
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:53 pm

Courtesy: Aviation Pros

Allegiant Air Under Fire After '60 Minutes' Safety Report

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/12408187/allegiant-air-under-fire-after-60-minutes-safety-report
 
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:44 pm

JakeWelty wrote:
Found an interesting read regarding this: http://www.theavgeek.net/jnorre/op-ed-a ... the-media/


Wait, there's this in the article:

As well as a better crew scheduling system that does not take crew away from home for months at a time.


Don't they fly back to base every day? Isn't this one of supposed perks their pilots mention when they stay at G4 over leaving for bigger money at the legacies?

Can one see why non pilots sit back and are bemused and befuddled at the constant bitching pilots and their union's seem to always be doing.

It seems they are never happy. Case in point, they now fear that with Allegiant retiring those long paid for Mad Dogs and taking on the debt of newer planes means more airtime and overnighting cause those planes have to now pay for themselves. They fear that the billion dollar resort will force more flying and over nighting as well. They seem to have issues with their new contract they ratified as their union didn't put in things they took for granted and are now being changed or done away with. That is on them and their seemingly piss poor representation team. They want more time off and more pay but they don't want the business to grow, always a conundrum pilots are.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:48 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
Courtesy: Aviation Pros

Allegiant Air Under Fire After '60 Minutes' Safety Report

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/12408187/allegiant-air-under-fire-after-60-minutes-safety-report


If this brings down Allegiant( and it won't) they'll all be asking where their cheap flight to Big Ears Town or the timeshare went in 6 months when it's balls freezing cold again.
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:18 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
While most people do not watch 60 Minutes, it is the secondary story that is bad news for G4. Here in PHX (we have an airport called IWA which is a pretty big deal for G4) the largest radio news station ran 2 separate segments this morning, each 10 minutes, recapping the 60 Minutes story. One of the co-hosts said based on this, she will never fly the airline when she has considered it in the past.

I bring this up because yes many people will not even see the story on CBS, however as stated above in ND, when the locals start running it, the audience grows drastically. BTW the soundbite which was the focus is where they guy says airlines with these types of records are no longer in business because they killed a lot of people. Even if not accurate, that sticks with people.

Like many of you, friends of mine fly for G4 and I know for a fact they are relatively happy and would not risk their life or others for a paycheck. Yes the maintenance record is spotty and is improving and I find it very odd that a story would run right now making them sound like a death trap.


it was my impression that G4 flies a lot of older people from their homes in the north to the sun of the south. Maybe that's wrong, but I know 60 Minutes has an older audience so if my first sentence is correct, this could be a real problem for them. Older people also have a lot of time to spread false fears as well, in addition to being gullible to what looks like a shoddy 60 Minutes piece.
 
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
dmg626 wrote:
Their target audience age of 80+ doesn’t fly Spirit anyways, may as well add a few stories about people getting kicked off planes for “no reason” too

:rotfl:

I cannot get excited about 60 minutes. They we're too sensationalist decades ago.

Seriously, I do not know anyone below 75 who watches. It used to generate hallway conversation! Ghad... I date myself.

Lightsaber


]LMAO! Just watch the commercials. Usually big Pharma Hakn a tshaynik to get your Dr. to prescribe the latest drug for what ales you. I remember way back in the day when 60 Minutes was in it's youth the main advertisers were financial joints and insurance such as Prudential and Waussa. Plus upscale car companies. I have 60 Minutes on in the background if I'm doing stuff around the apartment. Because the alternatives are lame crap like the latest reality talent dreck on NBC and ABC still has that awful Funniest Home Videos. As they say WGAS? Usually, 60 minutes has a story dealing with the Mid East, some Sheik, stuff you can't do...bla bla bla. It took them 15 minutes or so into their story to show the Critter. BTW, Hakn a tshaynik means Don't Knock a Tea Kettle. Yiddish slang for Don't bug me. Who cares? I'm referring to the drug commercials, you know the ones with animated bladders and folks in 1950's era and earlier bathtubs. Hope you got a smile out of this replay! Image Image

tick tick tick! See the latest on the Me Too Goat Lives Matter Movement in ......(insert Middle Eastern Nation) on the next 60 Minutes! tick tick tick!
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:45 am

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
atsiang wrote:
Just like with every coin, with every story there are two sides... I watched the entire show last night and though it may seem sensationalist or one-sided. But to me, Allegiant has been very lucky that they have not had an accident with fatality and it's clear that safety is not a top priority within the airline. I can't understand why would they fire the pilot who ordered the evacuation? With fumes filling up the cabin, why would it take the crew 12-15 minutes to "evacuate" the plane. Why would an airline be hesitant to provide maintenance records?

I re-watched the 60 Minutes story online and I still feel that it was a well done piece that brought to light very serious incidents with the airline and a culture of hushing things up and intimidation by airline management. I really do hope that the fired pilot, Jason Kinzer, wins his lawsuit against Allegiant. There's just nothing about his actions that should've prompted his firing.


:thumbsup: Hazardous fumes and smoke filling up the cabin and it takes the captain overriding ARFF and 12-15 minutes to commence deplaning from the rear stairs - making sure to take your carry-on so it doesn't look like an evac - what? I hope Kinzer gets a fat settlement or wins his suit too.

Those of us in the know have known about G4 for a long time, and I'm with those who won't fly them.

Some of you airline/aviation nut yahoos are really loony on this thread re. all this "hit piece" crap. I assume some of you are employed by them or your love of aviation is clouding your view.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:33 am

wjcandee wrote:
If CBS had spoken to actual Allegiant pilots and maintenance people -- a decent cross section -- CBS would have been told that there was nothing to see here, and they were 3 years late, if at all. Instead, these hapless nitwits got sold a bill of goods and arranged their facts "with a sense of urgency" to tell an untrue tale.


CBS, and specifically 60 Minutes, has a long history of writing the story they want and finding sources that will tell them what they want to hear while ignoring other sources, even more reliable ones. They most likely did talk to Allegiant pilots and mechanics but if they got information contrary to the story 60 Minutes was going to run, those interviews or quotes were never going to get air time.

Several years ago they did a similar piece when the U.S. military was introducing night vision goggles. As with any new technology, this took time and money to develop and the first prototypes didn't work as well as the production version did. 60 Minutes decided to do a hit piece on the military for wasting taxpayer dollars on this, and they sent a crew to Fort Campbell to interview soldiers and helicopter pilots. The soldiers and pilots pretty much unanimously loved night vision goggles and the advantage it gave them, so the interviews and quotes from people actually using the goggles never made it on the air when the hit piece was broadcast. If you want to read more about it, it's discussed in the autobiography of a former JCS Chairman.

I think a lot of the public is wising up to the fact that 60 Minutes writes many of their stories first and finds facts or innuendo to serve their needs second.
 
downdata
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:37 am

The irony is that Allegiant is one of the "safest" airline in the US in that there had been 0 fatalities in its 20 year operating history.
 
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:07 am

downdata wrote:
The irony is that Allegiant is one of the "safest" airline in the US in that there had been 0 fatalities in its 20 year operating history.


We all know you can have multiple incidents without killing anyone which Allegiant has had. Does not make them safe. Anything Maury Gallagher has his hands in is a disaster. But I will admit Allegiant is a better company than it once was.
 
speedbird52
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:40 am

I think the fact that a pilot was fired from the airline for calling an evacuation is all we need to know about their safety culture. Even if there is nothing wrong with an aircraft, a pilot should never be fired for doing what made him feel most safe.
"I have control" Three Words That Could Have Saved Lives.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:50 am

speedbird52 wrote:
I think the fact that a pilot was fired from the airline for calling an evacuation is all we need to know about their safety culture. Even if there is nothing wrong with an aircraft, a pilot should never be fired for doing what made him feel most safe.


See, now I totally disagree. Even this airline gave him a lot of latitude to do what he thought was best, even though it was highly-questionable whether in fact what he did was best.

What the guy did was divert for a passenger claiming to smell smoke that nobody could see and few could smell. Which happens a lot more times each day than there are diversions for it. But, hey, if he wants to divert because he's uber-cautious, okay, swell.

He then decided to stop on the active runway when there was no apparent reason to do so.

Then after being told by ARFF that there was no visible smoke or fire of any kind, he decided to pop the slides and evacuate on the active runway anyway. Not try taxiing to the gate with ARFF following him, or moving somewhere where the pax could be evacuated by airstairs. Nope. Down the slides on the active. Where people are 100-percent guaranteed to be injured. Now, me, I wonder whether this is some kind of stunt in pilot negotiations, but apparently the airline didn't fire him even for that. They took him at his word that he was scared.

What he apparently was fired for was the attitude that they got when they tried to retrain him that there are procedures that would have actually increased passenger safety that he should consider.

His actions almost-indisputably made his passengers LESS safe than they would have been had normal procedures for an incident like this been followed. To me, without all the facts, there's a strong suspicion that (assuming that he wasn't doing some kinda stunt) he got tunnel vision from the adrenaline or otherwise and carried out procedures as if the aircraft were actually on fire. Tunnel-vision. Brain-lock. Kind of like that guy in Hawaii who sent out the missle warning. (Further investigation on the Hawaii guy suggested that in several previous drills, where everyone understood that they were doing a drill, he had suffered a kind of brain lock in which he was convinced that missles/tsunamis/giant-green-monsters -- whatever they were drilling on -- were actually incoming. He then had to be prevented from firing off a real warning message. Stupidly, they didn't relieve the guy, despite the fact that something plainly was wrong with him, nice person though he may be. The airline plainly thought that there was something wrong with this captain, and they let him go.

It wasn't about firing somebody for acting at the highest degree of safety. It was firing him for his refusal to even consider that there were SAFER ways to react at various points of this incident sequence.

The bottom line is that the airline KNEW it was going to take this kind of crap from an overly-simplistic, sound-bite-driven, knowledgeless group of armchair analysts, and felt so strongly that he needed not to work there that they let him go anyway. It isn't that their safety-culture sucked; it's that knowing how this could be spun, they fired him anyway and upheld the firing upon review, because they didn't want a guy with whatever his condition is flying their aircraft.

That's my understanding of it, anyway. It doesn't help anyone if the crew pops the slides every time a coffee pot overheats or someone sees air conditioning condensation and thinks it's smoke. This actually imperils passengers.
 
primetimeDC9
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:52 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
atsiang wrote:
Just like with every coin, with every story there are two sides... I watched the entire show last night and though it may seem sensationalist or one-sided. But to me, Allegiant has been very lucky that they have not had an accident with fatality and it's clear that safety is not a top priority within the airline. I can't understand why would they fire the pilot who ordered the evacuation? With fumes filling up the cabin, why would it take the crew 12-15 minutes to "evacuate" the plane. Why would an airline be hesitant to provide maintenance records?

I re-watched the 60 Minutes story online and I still feel that it was a well done piece that brought to light very serious incidents with the airline and a culture of hushing things up and intimidation by airline management. I really do hope that the fired pilot, Jason Kinzer, wins Hazardous fumes and smoke filling up the cabin and it takes the captain overriding ARFF and 12-15 minutes to commence deplaning from the rear stairs - making sure to take your carry-on so it doesn't look like an evac - what? I hope Kinzer gets a fat settlement or wins his suit too.

Those of us in the know have known about G4 for a long time, and I'm with those who won't fly them.

Some of you airline/aviation nut yahoos are really loony on this thread re. all this "hit piece" crap. I assume some of you are employed by them or your love of aviation is clouding your view.


If you’d like to actually be in the know here’s some factual information for you

http://visualapproach.io/is-allegiant-a ... nclusions/

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=90084
This is the Faa responding to 60 minutes inquiry, they failed to mention these numbers.

It’s dangerous to believe a news program that profits from sensationalism without doing some fact checking first. Those of us in the know, know this.

It is very hard to believe that the flight attendants would be worried about how the news footage would portray people walking in with their bags when the cabin was filled with smoke. I think it’s safe to say that was pretty far from the first thing on their minds.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:56 pm

primetimeDC9 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
I re-watched the 60 Minutes story online and I still feel that it was a well done piece that brought to light very serious incidents with the airline and a culture of hushing things up and intimidation by airline management. I really do hope that the fired pilot, Jason Kinzer, wins Hazardous fumes and smoke filling up the cabin and it takes the captain overriding ARFF and 12-15 minutes to commence deplaning from the rear stairs - making sure to take your carry-on so it doesn't look like an evac - what? I hope Kinzer gets a fat settlement or wins his suit too.

Those of us in the know have known about G4 for a long time, and I'm with those who won't fly them.

Some of you airline/aviation nut yahoos are really loony on this thread re. all this "hit piece" crap. I assume some of you are employed by them or your love of aviation is clouding your view.


If you’d like to actually be in the know here’s some factual information for you

http://visualapproach.io/is-allegiant-a ... nclusions/

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=90084
This is the Faa responding to 60 minutes inquiry, they failed to mention these numbers.

It’s dangerous to believe a news program that profits from sensationalism without doing some fact checking first. Those of us in the know, know this.

It is very hard to believe that the flight attendants would be worried about how the news footage would portray people walking in with their bags when the cabin was filled with smoke. I think it’s safe to say that was pretty far from the first thing on their minds.


The whole 12-15 minutes stuck on board an aircraft breathing possibly noxious carcinogenic vapors did it for me. If it was just harmless, odorless water vapor why not communicate that to the pax? Something is odd about that incident to me. FAA looks like just another industry lackey and not an organization with safety as #0 in this program as well.

Anyway, I'm good. I like to maintain my FF status on OW; I don't fly the likes of G4, NK, and WN anyway.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
fly4ever78
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:33 pm

aviationjunky wrote:
I don't understand why they keep beating a dead horse with these stories. People clearly know G4 doesn't have the best track record as far as maintenance, but people still fly them. People will continue to fly them because they're the cheapest. People will continue to fly them because they fly to places most airlines don't. People will continue to fly them regardless of if 60 Minutes, Time Magazine, NY Times, LA Times, or some podunk little newspaper, if any of them all run stories about their maintenance. If a flight were to go down, people would blame poor maintenance. If they cancelled a flight due to maintenance, people are going to complain. It's a lose lose situation. The best thing that G4 needs to do, and is continuing to do, is just ignore the media. Clearly they have enough sense to replace their aged aircraft to alleviate the maintenance issues. They haven't had numerous system failures that left hundreds of thousands of passengers stranded for days. They haven't had an aviation accident that led to serious injury or death. They use aged aircraft, and with aged aircraft comes issues. They are correcting the issue. This is just another waste of time and money on an issue we are already aware of.


They keep beating a dead horse because the FAA isn't doing their job!!! This isn't a case of an airline with old planes. It's a case of an airline not doing the required maintenance on said old airplanes. Do you not see the difference here? They have had several "incidents" that very nearly resulted in hundreds of deaths, that's a problem. No one is accusing them for operating a bottom feeder airline, they are pointing out it's not a safe airline. There is a difference.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 60 Minutes to skewer Allegiant Air this Sunday

Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:55 pm

fly4ever78 wrote:
aviationjunky wrote:
I don't understand why they keep beating a dead horse with these stories. People clearly know G4 doesn't have the best track record as far as maintenance, but people still fly them. People will continue to fly them because they're the cheapest. People will continue to fly them because they fly to places most airlines don't. People will continue to fly them regardless of if 60 Minutes, Time Magazine, NY Times, LA Times, or some podunk little newspaper, if any of them all run stories about their maintenance. If a flight were to go down, people would blame poor maintenance. If they cancelled a flight due to maintenance, people are going to complain. It's a lose lose situation. The best thing that G4 needs to do, and is continuing to do, is just ignore the media. Clearly they have enough sense to replace their aged aircraft to alleviate the maintenance issues. They haven't had numerous system failures that left hundreds of thousands of passengers stranded for days. They haven't had an aviation accident that led to serious injury or death. They use aged aircraft, and with aged aircraft comes issues. They are correcting the issue. This is just another waste of time and money on an issue we are already aware of.


They keep beating a dead horse because the FAA isn't doing their job!!! This isn't a case of an airline with old planes. It's a case of an airline not doing the required maintenance on said old airplanes. Do you not see the difference here? They have had several "incidents" that very nearly resulted in hundreds of deaths, that's a problem. No one is accusing them for operating a bottom feeder airline, they are pointing out it's not a safe airline. There is a difference.


To say they "weren't doing the required maintenance" is just absolutely-false, and nobody serious has ever made such an allegation. The concerns were much more nuanced and to the extent they existed have largely been fixed.

I was scared by and very critical of the cotter pin incident. Upon investigation, though, this was very-largely an AAR issue. Delta uses AAR. A lot. So please.

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