Excellent article of the Washington Post about problems that might face Kim Jong Un flying his Il-62 Chammae-1 to remote location such as Switzerland or Sweden if the future summit should take place there:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 8f7ed11a1a

What are your thoughts?

I personally think he will eather make a fuel stop in Russia and fly Chammae-1 or fly the long range Tu-204 of JS.

I guess if a fuel stop is needed it will be in Russia or Belarus. In the old days their IL18s and 62s used to manage Moscow direct, but I doubt many people would know how busy those flights were. I'd imagine if fully loaded back then, a lighter loaded delegation should make it to Europe direct.

The article suggests embarrassment in using another aircraft, and in the DPRK that is perhaps the case, but in Europe it's quite normal for various heads of state to lease in business jets, or even take scheduled flights.

I thought Kim doesn't really like flying and even if he is to go to places like Switzerland or Sweden, it would be more likely for he to do so via train?

c933103 wrote:

I thought Kim doesn't really like flying and even if he is to go to places like Switzerland or Sweden, it would be more likely for he to do so via train?

Not sure about Jong-Un, but this is definitely true about his father Kim Jong-Il. You might have mixed them up

True, Sweden is a bit far North but Switzerland? That's in the heart of Europe, far from being remote.
That Train they have (more than one set( offers a luxury no even a 747 VIP could offer. Also, anything that NK has would not be able toaccommodate the full Delegation, so we would be looking at least on 2 rather 3 aircraft.

Nice piece of propaganda from WaPo.

Among other things, he was treated to the famed Koryo burger, a patty “of questionable meat” that he found surprisingly tasty.
The leader’s attempts to modernize the regime’s image abroad while presiding over a nation where the vast majority of the 25 million citizens lack sufficient food and electricity.
This plane was a Cold War-era Ilyushin Il-62, a Soviet-manufactured long-range jet. Yet some analysts concluded there was reason to doubt the plane’s reliability due to its age and lack of regular testing.

Can we PLEASE have ONE article on NK without these usual cheap shots? (Now, I know the answer)

If it is to go to Switzerland, the Il-62 will have no problem at all. They will stop in Moscow (possibly using it as an opportunity to meet with Mister Pu) and that's it. Nothing embarrassing about making a stop: the POTUS does it when traveling abroad, why not Kim?

The il-62 can do FNJ-VKO without any difficulty (it has been built to do Moscow-Vladivostok fully loaded) and its reliability is good enough for the sister of KJU to fly on it.

The Tu-204-300 can do it too (which can make sense since its navigational equipment must be more in line with current EU regulations).

opticalilyushin wrote:

The article suggests embarrassment in using another aircraft, and in the DPRK that is perhaps the case, but in Europe it's quite normal for various heads of state to lease in business jets, or even take scheduled flights.

Embarrassment to whom? He's already an embarrassment to everyone outside NK, having to fly a Western aircraft isn't going to change that. And the NK state media can lie to their people and tell them Kim Jong Un invented a teleportation device and used that to travel, and the North Koreans will believe it, so who are they worried about embarrassing?

STLflyer wrote:

opticalilyushin wrote:

The article suggests embarrassment in using another aircraft, and in the DPRK that is perhaps the case, but in Europe it's quite normal for various heads of state to lease in business jets, or even take scheduled flights.

Embarrassment to whom? He's already an embarrassment to everyone outside NK, having to fly a Western aircraft isn't going to change that. And the NK state media can lie to their people and tell them Kim Jong Un invented a teleportation device and used that to travel, and the North Koreans will believe it, so who are they worried about embarrassing?

What does this have to do with Spirit?
Then again, maybe Kim Jong Un would like their Bare Fares and bright yellow planes. It might remind him of Dennis Rodman's hair back in the Bad Boy days!

The western world may think of Kim Jong Un as an "embarrassment" but clearly he doesn't view himself that way. Image is everything to him, and I think it would be a huge blow to his ego and pride to have to fly in an aircraft built by the same countries that put choking sanctions on his own people. Not that he cares about them. If the summit is in Switzerland or anywhere in western Europe, he will NOT be taking a train there. That makes zero sense logistically - do you know how long that would take? He will fly on Russian/Soviet metal, probably a plane already in his fleet. The Tu-204 makes the most sense. Most likely via a Moscow military base for refueling. Seeing that he doesn't leave his country too often, this would be killing two birds with one stone so to speak.

STLflyer wrote:

And the NK state media can lie to their people and tell them Kim Jong Un invented a teleportation device and used that to travel, and the North Koreans will believe it, so who are they worried about embarrassing?

And think that there are about 150M people that believed a man who said that building a wall between two Countries will stop illegal immigration, and even voted for him lol.

Back on topic, I'd love to see an Il-62 again, some 20 years ago they were a common sight in RMI together with Il-86s and Tu-154s bringing down the first post Soviet era tourists. They were loud as hell.

Simple--Trump will send his 757 to pick him up. Sorted!

I think they are leaning to a DMZ meeting.

He can take his train.

STLflyer wrote:

opticalilyushin wrote:

The article suggests embarrassment in using another aircraft, and in the DPRK that is perhaps the case, but in Europe it's quite normal for various heads of state to lease in business jets, or even take scheduled flights.

Embarrassment to whom? He's already an embarrassment to everyone outside NK, having to fly a Western aircraft isn't going to change that. And the NK state media can lie to their people and tell them Kim Jong Un invented a teleportation device and used that to travel, and the North Koreans will believe it, so who are they worried about embarrassing?

I can think of a few world leaders guilty of this..

Back on topic, in the very unlikely event he went by train, would they have problems with rail gauges as they cross Eurasia? I know on the Moscow-Beijing trains they have ways to deal with it.

SR380 wrote:

What are your thoughts?

I personally think he will eather make a fuel stop in Russia and fly Chammae-1 or fly the long range Tu-204 of JS.

Here are my thoughts:

1. If your official military propaganda pics are in front of an ancient license built MIG, a IL-62 to TU-204 is very prestigious by comparison.
2. @ "Kim Jong Un has sought to pro­ject the image of a powerful leader who can face off against President Trump." - A 747-200 will dwarf a IL-62 any day. Flying in with the TU-204 will make the difference even more obvious. If you want to face off your plane should be prestigious. Personal A380 or something, I hear they are available on the used market. Fits the whole delegation, and as others have pointed out, the 747 does fuel stops as well. Oh, forgot, they are "broke" and subscribe to UN / any useful idiot country's food stamps.
3. @ "his ability to fly" - does he fly planes like Putin or GW? Extra points if he wears an eye mask while doing it and covers up the fuel gauge for a couple hours.
4. He won't take the train since it's only doing 37 mph due to the weight of 90 armored railroad cars. Not sure why it doesn't feature more locomotives then. Maybe they only have two for their little forays. Flying in sitting on top of a rocket might be faster and definitely more impressive

richierich wrote:

What does this have to do with Spirit?
Then again, maybe Kim Jong Un would like their Bare Fares and bright yellow planes. It might remind him of Dennis Rodman's hair back in the Bad Boy days!

Yeah, exactly, keep NK out of NK unless it's a charter for Rodman

Him and Fatty 3 can hog the big front seat, while enjoying comped BuzzBallz and muching on Swiss cheese from the prepacked trays. NK doesn't usually comp these but his bodyguards pack heat, plus the plane lands in NK at some point and the crew doesn't want an extended stay in the NK g̶u̶l̶a̶g̶s̶ um, "resorts".

Blankbarcode wrote:

c933103 wrote:

I thought Kim doesn't really like flying and even if he is to go to places like Switzerland or Sweden, it would be more likely for he to do so via train?

Not sure about Jong-Un, but this is definitely true about his father Kim Jong-Il. You might have mixed them up

Umm...I guess you didn't remember the propaganda video of Kim Jong-Un flying a plane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHi6vuikhZ0

But yes, his father (Kim Jong-Il) is the one that has a fear of flying and ride the train to everywhere.

zakuivcustom wrote:

propaganda video of Kim Jong-Un flying a plane

In North Korea the pilot sits on the right and wears three stripes when fatty is the PIC

The poor little schmuck and his family probably got to check out the Flak up close afterwards for messing with the controls when it was clearly fatty's plane during takeoff and landing

If he really wants to impress President Trump he should take the TU-114 like Mister K did back in '59 when he went to Idlewild since that was arguably the last time anyone in the U.S. was impressed by a Russian-style presidential plane.

The IL-62 had intercontinental range in a passenger configuration. There's no doubt it could easily reach Europe in a lighter VIP arrangement.

ua900 wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

propaganda video of Kim Jong-Un flying a plane

In North Korea the pilot sits on the right and wears three stripes when fatty is the PIC

The poor little schmuck and his family probably got to check out the Flak up close afterwards for messing with the controls when it was clearly fatty's plane during takeoff and landing

If he really wants to impress President Trump he should take the TU-114 like Mister K did back in '59 when he went to Idlewild since that was arguably the last time anyone in the U.S. was impressed by a Russian-style presidential plane.

But either way, Kim Jong-Un definitely don't fear flying unlike his father. He's still on a plane, not a flight simulator after all

I actually see flying on a chartered aircraft as more likely.

It is most likely that the meeting will take place in the JSA. No need to worry about transport. Originally, China and Russia would be in good spot to host this meeting, but given the current relationship between US and China and Russia, and the invitation is not routed through China or Russia, it is unlikely they will play host.

Yeah, after reading that crappy article I conclude that Kim might as well be an embarrassment to himself and his country, but that article is an embarrassment to the Washington Post and to the USA.

opticalilyushin wrote:

Back on topic, in the very unlikely event he went by train, would they have problems with rail gauges as they cross Eurasia? I know on the Moscow-Beijing trains they have ways to deal with it.

His armored train (or was it in his father's time?) did visit Russia, so they obviously have the solution for bogey change from Korean 1435 to Soviet 1520 mm.
Moreover, the bogey change would be probably performed on the North Korean side of the border, under trusted supervision of North Korean security

The question on the western part of the divide is becoming more tricky -- they would need a trusted facility for bogey change back to 1435 mm; if we postulate travel by land only (no ferries) there are basically following options for break-of-gauge stations:
1) from Finland to Sweden
2) from Russia/Kaliningrad oblast to Poland
3) from Belarus to Poland
4) from Ukraine to Poland or Slovakia or Hungary or Romania
or more southern route via Caucausus to Turkey (unavoidably crossing both Azerbaijan and Georgia on the way)
Option 4 is unlikely -- North Korea officially supports Russian invasion against Ukraine, and votes for Russians in the UN, so little chance for KJU to be afforded safe passage.

Also, if North Koreans demand that their security supervises bogey change, probably they would also bring their own bogeys from NK, so it would be more than one train, actually.

Didn't NK borrow an MH 772 for previous official trips or was that just NK's sports teams ?
Either way, obviously not an option anymore for them !

zakuivcustom wrote:

But yes, his father (Kim Jong-Il) is the one that has a fear of flying and ride the train to everywhere.

Was it a "fear of flying" or more likely a "fear of being blown up"? Takes a much larger attack/bomb to destroy a train. If I was him (If I was Kim) I wouldn't fly.

I wonder what airline would charter them a Boeing or Airbus (if it came to that). NK is under financial sanctions world wide and known for not paying their bills.

ua900 wrote:

If you want to face off your plane should be prestigious. Personal A380 or something, I hear they are available on the used market. Fits the whole delegation

Uhmmn...too large...something short and pudgy would match..... .....


https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=73135

JFK should be a breeze and ZRH a piece of cake..... .....



http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=FNJ-JFK%2FZRH&MS=wls&DU=nm

ua900 wrote:

Oh, forgot, they are "broke" and subscribe to UN / any useful idiot country's food stamps.

They could barter their rockets and missiles with engines for the plane!

workhorse wrote:

Nice piece of propaganda from WaPo.

Among other things, he was treated to the famed Koryo burger, a patty “of questionable meat” that he found surprisingly tasty.
The leader’s attempts to modernize the regime’s image abroad while presiding over a nation where the vast majority of the 25 million citizens lack sufficient food and electricity.
This plane was a Cold War-era Ilyushin Il-62, a Soviet-manufactured long-range jet. Yet some analysts concluded there was reason to doubt the plane’s reliability due to its age and lack of regular testing.

Can we PLEASE have ONE article on NK without these usual cheap shots? (Now, I know the answer)

They aren't cheap shots - they are reality.

kjeld0d wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

But yes, his father (Kim Jong-Il) is the one that has a fear of flying and ride the train to everywhere.

Was it a "fear of flying" or more likely a "fear of being blown up"? Takes a much larger attack/bomb to destroy a train. If I was him (If I was Kim) I wouldn't fly.

I believe it's both. The granddaddy, Kim Il-Sung, also fear flying himself, although the phobia-level is not as strong as Daddy Kim (Jong-Il), who traveled only by train during his entire reign.

Why doesn’t he ride one of his new fangled rockets. It reportedly has plenty of range. Dr Evil did it.

stl07 wrote:

workhorse wrote:

Nice piece of propaganda from WaPo.

Among other things, he was treated to the famed Koryo burger, a patty “of questionable meat” that he found surprisingly tasty.
The leader’s attempts to modernize the regime’s image abroad while presiding over a nation where the vast majority of the 25 million citizens lack sufficient food and electricity.
This plane was a Cold War-era Ilyushin Il-62, a Soviet-manufactured long-range jet. Yet some analysts concluded there was reason to doubt the plane’s reliability due to its age and lack of regular testing.

Can we PLEASE have ONE article on NK without these usual cheap shots? (Now, I know the answer)

They aren't cheap shots - they are reality.

OK, since we are on an aviation board, let's start with the last one. The Il-62 has been delivered in 1982 while POTUS's VC-25 in 1987 -- 5 years later. Hardly a big difference. As for "regular testing", I don't know what that means. Planes are not "tested", they are maintained. And I am not aware of any recent Air Koryo crashes due to bad maintenance -- are you?

For the second quote (hope I'm not going to be censored for this): what is "sufficient" food? Sufficient to sustain life? I am not aware of recent massive deaths in NK due to famine -- are you? Lack of electricity: do you have any reliable sources to prove that more than 80% of NK population (which is how I interpret "vast majority") lack electricity? My guess: you don't because it's not true.

For the burger, if it was tasty, why it's "questionable"?

There is plenty of true things that are bad about NK, why invent fake ones? And aviation-wise, things are not that bad at all there, as can be witnessed by dozens of people each year who go there for aviation tours.

Devilfish wrote:

ua900 wrote:

If you want to face off your plane should be prestigious. Personal A380 or something, I hear they are available on the used market. Fits the whole delegation

Uhmmn...too large...something short and pudgy would match..... .....


https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=73135

JFK should be a breeze and ZRH a piece of cake..... .....



http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=FNJ-JFK%2FZRH&MS=wls&DU=nm

ua900 wrote:

Oh, forgot, they are "broke" and subscribe to UN / any useful idiot country's food stamps.

They could barter their rockets and missiles with engines for the plane!

Airbus would be able to get the plane with no customers off their hands.
IF this happens in Europe, BIG IF, I expect this site to light up with pictures of the IL-62 so that us Americans can live vicariously through the European spotters lucky enough to get their eyes on the jet. Flying on a Soviet jet has been on my bucket list for some time. I fear I may never get the chance.
I believe that the simplest way for the delegation to reach Europe would be quietly one stopping the jet in Moscow, and then so that it doesn’t get one upped, make sure that when AF1 arrives, the IL-62 is nowhere to be seen so that comparisons aren’t made.
On the topic of rail gauges, is a variable gauge bogey possible? Something where over a mile or so the tracks gradually change from one gauge to another and the bogey can follow it eliminating the need for a complete bogey change?

QXAS wrote:

On the topic of rail gauges, is a variable gauge bogey possible? Something where over a mile or so the tracks gradually change from one gauge to another and the bogey can follow it eliminating the need for a complete bogey change?

Yes, it's done for example by Talgo trains on the French-Spanish border between Portbou and Cerbère. And you don't need a mile, it's actually less than 100 feet.

workhorse wrote:

stl07 wrote:

workhorse wrote:

Nice piece of propaganda from WaPo.



Can we PLEASE have ONE article on NK without these usual cheap shots? (Now, I know the answer)

They aren't cheap shots - they are reality.

OK, since we are on an aviation board, let's start with the last one. The Il-62 has been delivered in 1982 while POTUS's VC-25 in 1987 -- 5 years later. Hardly a big difference. As for "regular testing", I don't know what that means. Planes are not "tested", they are maintained. And I am not aware of any recent Air Koryo crashes due to bad maintenance -- are you?

For the second quote (hope I'm not going to be censored for this): what is "sufficient" food? Sufficient to sustain life? I am not aware of recent massive deaths in NK due to famine -- are you? Lack of electricity: do you have any reliable sources to prove that more than 80% of NK population (which is how I interpret "vast majority") lack electricity? My guess: you don't because it's not true.

For the burger, if it was tasty, why it's "questionable"?

There is plenty of true things that are bad about NK, why invent fake ones? And aviation-wise, things are not that bad at all there, as can be witnessed by dozens of people each year who go there for aviation tours.

As for the burger, Air Koryo's burger is known throughout the aviation community as the "questionable burger" due to how it used to be before the airline reform, it's just a saying

Also, you are assuming something isn't true because there isn't any evidence saying it is. But using your same argument there isn't any evidence saying it's not true. That's a logical fallacy. In a dictatorship, reporting about this stuff isn't allowed, so the only thing we can believe is what our government gives us.

26point2 wrote:

Why doesn’t he ride one of his new fangled rockets. It reportedly has plenty of range. Dr Evil did it.

Oh my god, it looks like a huge...

Pecker!

Where?

Wait, that’s not a pecker, that looks like someone’s...

Privates! We have reports of an unidentified flying object. It is a long, smooth shaft, complete with...

Two balls!