voxkel
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:50 am

BawliBooch wrote:
A non-stop STV-EWR flight cannot come soon enough!


I definitely feel that STV is among the most underserved airports in India (if not the world). Business capital of Gujarat, many Gujaratis running business around the world too (particularly New Jersey, UK, East Africa). However, with that said, I definitely feel that STV-DXB/DOH will come before non-stops to USA.

I also think STV-JNB/DUR/NBO/LHR will come before any US non-stop, but after the ME3 start flying. The main question is if flying say STV-JNB nonstop is worth it over EK STV-DXB-JNB (or something similar).
Last edited by voxkel on Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:54 am

voxkel wrote:
Fleet crunch may put Air India’s Mumbai-New York non-stop flight on hold

https://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-n ... O7xCN.html

It's telling if 4 77W's are grounded currently.

What is AIs 777 utilization? That is exactly 1 of 4 not flying. For planes that lease for USD $1 million per month, having that many sit is expensive.

Executives are paid to boost asset utilization profitably. Oh well...

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sand26391
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:32 am

BLR increases Air Traffic Movement per hour to 40/hr from 21OCT 2018 at 0001hrs LT..
MAX ARR ONLY= 27
MAX DEP ONLY= 27

Thats an additional 48 extra flights to & from BLR daily can be added. The ATM/hr will increase to 42 ... and 44 eventually by the time 2nd RWY becomes operational around OCT-NOV 2019
 
sand26391
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:32 am

sand26391 wrote:
Next wave of Intl flights will be BLR-KTM/MLE/HKG.


IndiGo set to announce BLR-HKG in the coming days.....

https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 2613183488
 
Sindhuputra
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:41 am

Just wondering how the government could aid development of Indian airlines and Manage bilaterals in an unbiased manner ( leave aside bucket loads of cash finding way to babu’s accounts) . Here is a list of ideas
1. Bilateral capacity allowed to grow to infinity as long as not more than 25 percent passengers are connecting from the other country , and > 90 percent of bilateral is used up ... 6 monthly review
2. Only negotiate at country level not at province / emirate whatever else - define it as UN recognition ( some exceptions like Taiwan permitted )
3. Country negotiating needs to come and negotiate on behalf of airlines and airports - cannot take airline only approach . Slot availability in India to be made basis equivalent a lot availability in their markets
4. Greater than 5000k rule on restriction is great
5. Indian bilaterals can only be utilised by airlines owned 50 percent by known Indian entities ( bvi, Panama , Mauritius not ok) or with > 75 percent float on Indian exchanges
 
sand26391
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:01 pm

IndiGo's website already shows/lists the Airbus A321

Image
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:52 pm

Sindhuputra wrote:
Just wondering how the government could aid development of Indian airlines and Manage bilaterals in an unbiased manner ( leave aside bucket loads of cash finding way to babu’s accounts) . Here is a list of ideas
1. Bilateral capacity allowed to grow to infinity as long as not more than 25 percent passengers are connecting from the other country , and > 90 percent of bilateral is used up ... 6 monthly review
2. Only negotiate at country level not at province / emirate whatever else - define it as UN recognition ( some exceptions like Taiwan permitted )
3. Country negotiating needs to come and negotiate on behalf of airlines and airports - cannot take airline only approach . Slot availability in India to be made basis equivalent a lot availability in their markets
4. Greater than 5000k rule on restriction is great
5. Indian bilaterals can only be utilised by airlines owned 50 percent by known Indian entities ( bvi, Panama , Mauritius not ok) or with > 75 percent float on Indian exchanges

Bilaterals are more than the aviation rights. Your #1 makes it so many nations with full bilaterals won't negotiate. UK, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Germany, Singapore, HKG...
2. The Emirates are independent. HKG's bilateral is independent. Dubai grants rights only for Dubai and is not required to provide slots at a time so that another Emirate can fly (and won't).
3. I agree. Bilaterals require equal access


But you have to give something for the other trade parts negotiated as part of a bilateral (banking, pharma, chemical, food, visas, military cooperation,).

We on a.net are too aviation focused. No city/nation goes into a bilateral only negotiating one industry and ignoring how some city states have withheld rights doesn't go to how to improve.

India needs to improve the process to compete on connections (faster transfers international to international, they must compete), expand infrastructure, and cut fuel taxes (adds more to the cost of long haul than industry standard profit).

The reality is India has policies in place that push customers to connect in foreign hubs. Fix that first.

Lightsaber
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:48 am

Go Air's planned sub lease of its ceos to Bamboo Airways falls through
https://www.financialexpress.com/infras ... h/1351689/
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
Sindhuputra
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:07 am

lightsaber wrote:
Sindhuputra wrote:
Just wondering how the government could aid development of Indian airlines and Manage bilaterals in an unbiased manner ( leave aside bucket loads of cash finding way to babu’s accounts) . Here is a list of ideas
1. Bilateral capacity allowed to grow to infinity as long as not more than 25 percent passengers are connecting from the other country , and > 90 percent of bilateral is used up ... 6 monthly review
2. Only negotiate at country level not at province / emirate whatever else - define it as UN recognition ( some exceptions like Taiwan permitted )
3. Country negotiating needs to come and negotiate on behalf of airlines and airports - cannot take airline only approach . Slot availability in India to be made basis equivalent a lot availability in their markets
4. Greater than 5000k rule on restriction is great
5. Indian bilaterals can only be utilised by airlines owned 50 percent by known Indian entities ( bvi, Panama , Mauritius not ok) or with > 75 percent float on Indian exchanges

Bilaterals are more than the aviation rights. Your #1 makes it so many nations with full bilaterals won't negotiate. UK, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Germany, Singapore, HKG...
2. The Emirates are independent. HKG's bilateral is independent. Dubai grants rights only for Dubai and is not required to provide slots at a time so that another Emirate can fly (and won't).
3. I agree. Bilaterals require equal access


But you have to give something for the other trade parts negotiated as part of a bilateral (banking, pharma, chemical, food, visas, military cooperation,).

We on a.net are too aviation focused. No city/nation goes into a bilateral only negotiating one industry and ignoring how some city states have withheld rights doesn't go to how to improve.

India needs to improve the process to compete on connections (faster transfers international to international, they must compete), expand infrastructure, and cut fuel taxes (adds more to the cost of long haul than industry standard profit).

The reality is India has policies in place that push customers to connect in foreign hubs. Fix that first.

Lightsaber




I agree with you that the overall negotiation on these things is not based on aviation alone but multiple other considerations and trades have to be made.

However - one can have a policy and others need to respect that. There are a few things that can be taken off the table - like Europe has managed to protect the sleep of its citizens at the expense of sleep of us indians ( and our Govt or masses woudnt care unfortunately)

On the Emirates part- funny how countries become one when it suits them and want to be treated as different in other areas . Think Uk in addition to. Emirates or indeed HK. Maybe single visa areas can be one entity - Europe would stop talking to you at that suggestion for sure :)

Grandfather what needs to be grandfathered but should adopt an approach that meets our need
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Sindhuputra wrote:
Just wondering how the government could aid development of Indian airlines and Manage bilaterals in an unbiased manner ( leave aside bucket loads of cash finding way to babu’s accounts) . Here is a list of ideas
1. Bilateral capacity allowed to grow to infinity as long as not more than 25 percent passengers are connecting from the other country , and > 90 percent of bilateral is used up ... 6 monthly review
2. Only negotiate at country level not at province / emirate whatever else - define it as UN recognition ( some exceptions like Taiwan permitted )
3. Country negotiating needs to come and negotiate on behalf of airlines and airports - cannot take airline only approach . Slot availability in India to be made basis equivalent a lot availability in their markets
4. Greater than 5000k rule on restriction is great
5. Indian bilaterals can only be utilised by airlines owned 50 percent by known Indian entities ( bvi, Panama , Mauritius not ok) or with > 75 percent float on Indian exchanges

Bilaterals are more than the aviation rights. Your #1 makes it so many nations with full bilaterals won't negotiate. UK, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Germany, Singapore, HKG...
2. The Emirates are independent. HKG's bilateral is independent. Dubai grants rights only for Dubai and is not required to provide slots at a time so that another Emirate can fly (and won't).
3. I agree. Bilaterals require equal access


But you have to give something for the other trade parts negotiated as part of a bilateral (banking, pharma, chemical, food, visas, military cooperation,).

We on a.net are too aviation focused. No city/nation goes into a bilateral only negotiating one industry and ignoring how some city states have withheld rights doesn't go to how to improve.

India needs to improve the process to compete on connections (faster transfers international to international, they must compete), expand infrastructure, and cut fuel taxes (adds more to the cost of long haul than industry standard profit).

The reality is India has policies in place that push customers to connect in foreign hubs. Fix that first.

Lightsaber


I understand your points but would add - the GOI needs to create an environment where Indian carriers are stable. I am all for free trade but free trade where one side is shackled while the other side gets direct/indirect subsidies is not free trade (see the EU and Brexit on free trade rules). Airfares in India and from India are too cheap. Aside form lowering taxes (I am fine with the GOI or cities increasing the airport fee for those originating in the city - this way the ME3 are equally affected and connecting pax are not - sort of what the UK does). I am all for the GOI using aviation to get other rights but you can't use that as an excuse while your own aviation is about to collapse (and NO having just a strong Indigo is not the goal). I wonder if the main issue in India is that every airline is going after P2P rather than hubs that they can defend. The usual story of Spice or Go announcing a route and then Indigo stepping in is getting old.
 
sand26391
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:26 pm

IndiGo launches Daily BLR-HKG wef 11DEC using Airbus A320 aircraft for 'sometime' and then shift to A321Neo on the route.
Wef 18DEC timings are as follows

6E1773 BLR 2340 0745 HKG
6E1774 HKG 0845 1245 BLR
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:54 pm

sand26391 wrote:
IndiGo launches Daily BLR-HKG wef 11DEC using Airbus A320 aircraft for 'sometime' and then shift to A321Neo on the route.
Wef 18DEC timings are as follows

6E1773 BLR 2340 0745 HKG
6E1774 HKG 0845 1245 BLR


Im surprised Indigo isn't launching DEL-HKG first. I feel like BLR-HKG is a business route rather than leisure. Unclear why any business person would want to fly Indigo on this flight. Did they just announce this because Jet announced they were thinking of launching the route? If I was a BLR based business flier I would want a FSC, Jet, to have a hub here. But maybe the Indian market is different and business travelers are forced to fly LCC (which is fine).
 
AI
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:39 pm

Tatas in talks to pick up stake in struggling Jet Airways -

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... source=sms

Now I didn’t see that coming. Very exciting if true.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:53 pm

AI wrote:
Tatas in talks to pick up stake in struggling Jet Airways -

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... source=sms

Now I didn’t see that coming. Very exciting if true.


This would be great. Merge UX with Jet. Take the best of both and create India’s best FSC. NG needs to seek his stake and retire. End the madness. Fingers crossed
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:30 am

The world would have come a full circle. A bit of history recap for the unaware: When Air India was placed for sale by the government back in 2000 a consortium of Tatas and SQ was tipped to be the favourites to acquire the airline. Enter NG and he lobbied to insert a clause that prevent foreign airlines from having any ownership effectively scuttling the sale.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
sand26391
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:49 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
sand26391 wrote:
IndiGo launches Daily BLR-HKG wef 11DEC using Airbus A320 aircraft for 'sometime' and then shift to A321Neo on the route.
Wef 18DEC timings are as follows

6E1773 BLR 2340 0745 HKG
6E1774 HKG 0845 1245 BLR


Im surprised Indigo isn't launching DEL-HKG first. I feel like BLR-HKG is a business route rather than leisure. Unclear why any business person would want to fly Indigo on this flight. Did they just announce this because Jet announced they were thinking of launching the route? If I was a BLR based business flier I would want a FSC, Jet, to have a hub here. But maybe the Indian market is different and business travelers are forced to fly LCC (which is fine).


They are targeting pax not just from BLR, but also from TN, KL & other parts of South India, as there's no LCC serving the route.
9W has also applied to fly on the route this WS with its B738M but not sure when will they launch due to its current financial issues.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:59 am

sand26391 wrote:
9W has also applied to fly on the route this WS with its B738M but not sure when will they launch due to its current financial issues.

The grapevine has it that 9W was unable to secure slots at HKG where new airlines are preferred over ones that already fly there.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:08 am

AI wrote:
Tatas in talks to pick up stake in struggling Jet Airways -

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... source=sms

Now I didn’t see that coming. Very exciting if true.

Wow... Buy 26% from the current owner and an offer to buy another 26% (conveniently more than EY's 24%).

I didn't see this coming either. It makes sense. It also ties up so much in funds they won't bid on AI...

This is a mega-curveball.

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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:23 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
This would be great. Merge UX with Jet. Take the best of both and create India’s best FSC. NG needs to seek his stake and retire. End the madness. Fingers crossed


Not going to happen. The so-called Indian private sector conglomerates are drowning in debt, TATAs in 25,000 Cr and some others in 200,000 Cr all through Indian PSB. They are kept afloat indirectly by Indian PSBs. Right now GoI using Life Insurance Corporation to save bad infrastructure ventures, in the state not to be named. The entire economy is just a pack of cards. Aviation is just a tip of the iceberg.

China has rainy day funds $3 Trillion for bad investments and currency manipulation. India has nothing.

India depends on heavy tax collection on oil and aviation. AI bailout money is nothing compared to the tax revenue on other airlines. The prudent thing would be to reduce taxes on everyone. Money laundering or public sector bank loans shouldn't be the only two options for working capital. It appears GoI is happy with money launderers as long as they are not caught and Central Bank forex reserves are safe.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:55 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
This would be great. Merge UX with Jet. Take the best of both and create India’s best FSC. NG needs to seek his stake and retire. End the madness. Fingers crossed


Not going to happen. The so-called Indian private sector conglomerates are drowning in debt, TATAs in 25,000 Cr and some others in 200,000 Cr all through Indian PSB. They are kept afloat indirectly by Indian PSBs. Right now GoI using Life Insurance Corporation to save bad infrastructure ventures, in the state not to be named. The entire economy is just a pack of cards. Aviation is just a tip of the iceberg.

China has rainy day funds $3 Trillion for bad investments and currency manipulation. India has nothing.

India depends on heavy tax collection on oil and aviation. AI bailout money is nothing compared to the tax revenue on other airlines. The prudent thing would be to reduce taxes on everyone. Money laundering or public sector bank loans shouldn't be the only two options for working capital. It appears GoI is happy with money launderers as long as they are not caught and Central Bank forex reserves are safe.


Comments about the state of economy that have no grounding in reality. How surprising!
FYI the total debt of listed TATA companies is 2.75 lakh crore
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:24 am

Not nitpicking on who has how much debt. Everyone is drowning in it. Indian carriers cannot survive with 1.5x average cost structure and offering world's lowest airfares. Money laundering cannot make up for the difference, As long as Goyal had open channels, Jet Airways thrived, now it is suffering. Those who are thriving now face the same fate, when their channels dry up.

As a whole industry should be demanding lower taxes and access to global financiers, who are sitting on $Trillions of dollars, ready to offer loans at much lower rates than Indian PSBs. Let the global financiers decide who is eligible for a working capital loan, not PSBs or GoI or RBI.

Delta probably has $10+Billion cash reserves and access to world's cheapest finance, yet cannot help Jet Airways. Something is wrong with the way businesses are run in India.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:03 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Everyone is drowning in it.

Finance 101: Large debt does not automatically mean a struggling company. The size of TATAs is big enough for their debt levels to be comfortable. And India's largest airline is practically debt free.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:50 am

Vietnam-India top 10 city pairs ranked by percentage of bookings: 2017

Rank Route Percentage of bookings
1. Ho Chi Minh-Delhi 14%
2. Ho Chi Minh-Mumbai 13%
3. Hanoi-Delhi 12%
4. Hanoi-Mumbai 9%
5. Ho Chi Minh-Bangalore 7%
6. Ho Chi Minh-Chennai 7%
7. Ho Chi Minh-Hyderabad 4%
8. Hanoi-Kolkata 4%
9. Hanoi-Bangalore 4%
10. Ho Chi Minh-Kolkata 4%

From: https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... ops-407377
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
sand26391
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:53 am

Q3 PDEW btw BLR & SFO was at 170
FY 2017-18 the PDEW was at 158.
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:21 pm

unrave wrote:
The world would have come a full circle. A bit of history recap for the unaware: When Air India was placed for sale by the government back in 2000 a consortium of Tatas and SQ was tipped to be the favourites to acquire the airline. Enter NG and he lobbied to insert a clause that prevent foreign airlines from having any ownership effectively scuttling the sale.


Indeed ironic!

Win for good corporate governance. A defining loss for crony capitalism, Dawood funding, and all the remnants of license, permit, quota raj!
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Not nitpicking on who has how much debt. Everyone is drowning in it. Indian carriers cannot survive with 1.5x average cost structure and offering world's lowest airfares. Money laundering cannot make up for the difference, As long as Goyal had open channels, Jet Airways thrived, now it is suffering. Those who are thriving now face the same fate, when their channels dry up.

As a whole industry should be demanding lower taxes and access to global financiers, who are sitting on $Trillions of dollars, ready to offer loans at much lower rates than Indian PSBs. Let the global financiers decide who is eligible for a working capital loan, not PSBs or GoI or RBI.

Delta probably has $10+Billion cash reserves and access to world's cheapest finance, yet cannot help Jet Airways. Something is wrong with the way businesses are run in India.


While I don't agree with you about every company drowning in debt, I do agree that it is weird that Indian airlines and Indian unions are not pushing for lower taxes and access to working capital. It is so bizarre. It is like Indian aviation only lobbies the GOI to keep super tough regulations (5 year rule) or other nonsense. No one is fighting to make the industry healthier and poised for growth - NO ONE. So weird. If Jet is running out of cash, the unions should be screaming to make things better for Jet. Instead they sabotage Jet because they are late paying salaries (leaking it to the press which only pushes people away from making reservations)???? And add to it all those that would see India just had over aviation to the ME3 and you have a perfect storm. That said, I hope the Tatas get Jet. Maybe if there is one legitimate player, they will push a bit more (I get that the Tatas are part of the current Indian system so will play ball to a point).
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:33 pm

It is the incumbents who are trying to block competition even while they are becoming irrelevant.

Jet is in trouble because they are trying to focus on a hub and premium passenger traffic. The market that is growing is point 2 point with a no-frills passenger demography.

Tara’s themselves don’t seem to have a great business model here but it is their money so let them be. If I were a TCS employee or a share-holder I might wonder if using my money to bring in Jet Airways employees is of any value.

Frankly with NMIA being the ‘solution’ to Bombay’s problems, the slots at BOM become even more valuable.

I imagine Tatar’s could fill up a few non-stops to US and UK by funneling TCS/Tata Motors-Jaguar-LandRover employees thru a few flights from MAA/BLR/HYD/PNQ. I do hope this govt does not become even more restrictive in its aviation policy.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:02 pm

vadodara wrote:
Indeed ironic!

Win for good corporate governance. A defining loss for crony capitalism, Dawood funding, and all the remnants of license, permit, quota raj!


Dawood funding? Again?

There is zero evidence to prove that and multiple investigations have come a cropper. Given the absence of evidence, it is just conjecture. Give the Dawood angle a rest! Please!

I have looked into hoping for a big story and found nothing. Jet Airways did have access to funds from Kuwait Airway's and Gulf Air and some other Middle Eastern Sheikh's. But all of this was strictly legal even when FDI in Airlines was illegal. Unethical? Perhaps? Illegal? No!

If what Jet Airways did between 1990 and 2005 was "wrong", then by extension what Indigo & Spicejet are doing today is also wrong. You cannot be selective.

And Dawood?

No! Just No!
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle! on twitter @Banwaarilal
 
unnayan
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:21 pm

vadodara wrote:
It is the incumbents who are trying to block competition even while they are becoming irrelevant.

Jet is in trouble because they are trying to focus on a hub and premium passenger traffic. The market that is growing is point 2 point with a no-frills passenger demography.

Tara’s themselves don’t seem to have a great business model here but it is their money so let them be. If I were a TCS employee or a share-holder I might wonder if using my money to bring in Jet Airways employees is of any value.

Frankly with NMIA being the ‘solution’ to Bombay’s problems, the slots at BOM become even more valuable.

I imagine Tatar’s could fill up a few non-stops to US and UK by funneling TCS/Tata Motors-Jaguar-LandRover employees thru a few flights from MAA/BLR/HYD/PNQ. I do hope this govt does not become even more restrictive in its aviation policy.


Completely agree ... I want my hard earned money for my future.. not Jet
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:57 pm

unnayan wrote:
Completely agree ... I want my hard earned money for my future.. not Jet

How is your hard earned money being spent on Jet Airways?
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle! on twitter @Banwaarilal
 
unnayan
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:02 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
unnayan wrote:
Completely agree ... I want my hard earned money for my future.. not Jet

How is your hard earned money being spent on Jet Airways?


I meant that TATA shouldn't invest.. in context to other Tata group companies suffering
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:07 pm

unnayan wrote:
I meant that TATA shouldn't invest.. in context to other Tata group companies suffering


Aaah! Broadly agree!

But i wouldn't worry too much! Unlike Indigo & Spicejet, Tata Group is a professionally managed company that places its bets on the long term viability. Unlike Indigo, Tata does not play 10 year bets! :P
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle! on twitter @Banwaarilal
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:11 pm

[quote="vadodara"

I imagine Tatar’s could fill up a few non-stops to US and UK by funneling TCS/Tata Motors-Jaguar-LandRover employees thru a few flights from MAA/BLR/HYD/PNQ. I do hope this govt does not become even more restrictive in its aviation policy.[/quote]

Do you really believe this? I get people want nonstops from their home city to the world, but come on no private Indian carrier has launched nonstops or even one stops to the US from DEL/BOM forget about the list you gave. Even BLR has SFO traffic below 200 (see above post). For HYD/BLR/MAA etc to get more international connectivity they need strong local airlines. Look at Jet. They are looking at BLR as a secondary hub after BOM. This is the way aviation works. BOM/DEL will always be the natural place for hubs to start and then other cities will follow. But Indian aviation is so screwed up that people demand EK be given 10 flights form their city and then complain they can't fly nonstop to ZRH or LHR or JFK. You can't have both when your city has very limited J traffic. I am glad Indigo is launching BLR-HKG (although I feel ike the city would be better off with 9W given it is a business city and not a big VFR one). If Indian aviation can stabilize, I would imagine BLR and HYD would soon become domestic and smallish international hubs second to primary hubs in BOM & DEL. AMD, MAA and CCU will have much harder times because of the lack of sizable J traffic.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:18 pm

vadodara wrote:
I imagine Tatar’s could fill up a few non-stops to US and UK by funneling TCS/Tata Motors-Jaguar-LandRover employees thru a few flights from MAA/BLR/HYD/PNQ. I do hope this govt does not become even more restrictive in its aviation policy.

ROFL so hard that all the Molson just got wasted!

Please tell me you were being sarcastic!
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle! on twitter @Banwaarilal
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:19 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
unnayan wrote:
Completely agree ... I want my hard earned money for my future.. not Jet

How is your hard earned money being spent on Jet Airways?


Probably a TCS employee???

TCS is already bailing out other TATA group companies, per Cyrus Mistry.
 
voxkel
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:51 pm

Out of curiosity, is it possible that AI are considering AMD-EWR non-stop now, given LHR-EWR is ending? If they have a fleet problem, just make DEL-SFO a daily 77W. Then, they could use 2 77L on BOM-AMD-EWR-AMD-BOM-JFK-BOM as follows:

AI141 BOM 23:30 - 05:45+1 JFK 77L 135
AI140 JFK 10:40 - 12:00+1 BOM 77L 246

AI181 BOM 21:00 - 21:50 AMD 23:45 - 05:15+1 EWR 77L 246
AI180 EWR 10:30 - 11:10+1 AMD 13:00+1 - 14:15+1 BOM 77L 357

AI173/174 become daily 77W; AI183/184 cancelled

This would be the first flight in a long time that would allow a morning arrival in AMD, enabling daytime travel to other cities in Gujarat like Surat or Vadodara.
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:32 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
[quote="vadodara"

I imagine Tatar’s could fill up a few non-stops to US and UK by funneling TCS/Tata Motors-Jaguar-LandRover employees thru a few flights from MAA/BLR/HYD/PNQ. I do hope this govt does not become even more restrictive in its aviation policy.


Do you really believe this? I get people want nonstops from their home city to the world, but come on no private Indian carrier has launched nonstops or even one stops to the US from DEL/BOM forget about the list you gave. Even BLR has SFO traffic below 200 (see above post). For HYD/BLR/MAA etc to get more international connectivity they need strong local airlines. Look at Jet. They are looking at BLR as a secondary hub after BOM. This is the way aviation works. BOM/DEL will always be the natural place for hubs to start and then other cities will follow. But Indian aviation is so screwed up that people demand EK be given 10 flights form their city and then complain they can't fly nonstop to ZRH or LHR or JFK. You can't have both when your city has very limited J traffic. I am glad Indigo is launching BLR-HKG (although I feel ike the city would be better off with 9W given it is a business city and not a big VFR one). If Indian aviation can stabilize, I would imagine BLR and HYD would soon become domestic and smallish international hubs second to primary hubs in BOM & DEL. AMD, MAA and CCU will have much harder times because of the lack of sizable J traffic.[/quote]

Sorry meant to say funnnel traffic thru BOM. Corporate contract.
 
EK006
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:35 pm

voxkel wrote:
Out of curiosity, is it possible that AI are considering AMD-EWR non-stop now, given LHR-EWR is ending? If they have a fleet problem, just make DEL-SFO a daily 77W. Then, they could use 2 77L on BOM-AMD-EWR-AMD-BOM-JFK-BOM as follows:

AI141 BOM 23:30 - 05:45+1 JFK 77L 135
AI140 JFK 10:40 - 12:00+1 BOM 77L 246

AI181 BOM 21:00 - 21:50 AMD 23:45 - 05:15+1 EWR 77L 246
AI180 EWR 10:30 - 11:10+1 AMD 13:00+1 - 14:15+1 BOM 77L 357

AI173/174 become daily 77W; AI183/184 cancelled

This would be the first flight in a long time that would allow a morning arrival in AMD, enabling daytime travel to other cities in Gujarat like Surat or Vadodara.


Highly doubt they will reduce frequency on DEL-SF0, as its a very important and more importantly profitable destination for AI compared to AMD-EWR, which caters more to VFR paz more than high yielding biz pax
 
VTORD
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:40 pm

EK006 wrote:
voxkel wrote:
Out of curiosity, is it possible that AI are considering AMD-EWR non-stop now, given LHR-EWR is ending? If they have a fleet problem, just make DEL-SFO a daily 77W. Then, they could use 2 77L on BOM-AMD-EWR-AMD-BOM-JFK-BOM as follows:

AI141 BOM 23:30 - 05:45+1 JFK 77L 135
AI140 JFK 10:40 - 12:00+1 BOM 77L 246

AI181 BOM 21:00 - 21:50 AMD 23:45 - 05:15+1 EWR 77L 246
AI180 EWR 10:30 - 11:10+1 AMD 13:00+1 - 14:15+1 BOM 77L 357

AI173/174 become daily 77W; AI183/184 cancelled

This would be the first flight in a long time that would allow a morning arrival in AMD, enabling daytime travel to other cities in Gujarat like Surat or Vadodara.


Highly doubt they will reduce frequency on DEL-SF0, as its a very important and more importantly profitable destination for AI compared to AMD-EWR, which caters more to VFR paz more than high yielding biz pax

Surat is a good 3.5-4 hour drive from AMD so the day time travel advantage doesn't really pan out - BDQ yes, STV No. As I stated before, they are better off adding BDQ/STV from BOM that can provide good connections to the JFK/EWR flights and rotate the 77L out on DEL-BOM. It would be much more convenient for the EWR Gujarati flier base. They dropped EWR-LHR for BLR-LHR so the most likely scenario is that AMD-EWR isn't filling up the seats.
Twitter: @spottingfoodie
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:32 am

VTORD wrote:
Highly doubt they will reduce frequency on DEL-SF0, as its a very important and more importantly profitable destination for AI compared to AMD-EWR, which caters more to VFR paz more than high yielding biz pax
Surat is a good 3.5-4 hour drive from AMD so the day time travel advantage doesn't really pan out - BDQ yes, STV No. As I stated before, they are better off adding BDQ/STV from BOM that can provide good connections to the JFK/EWR flights and rotate the 77L out on DEL-BOM. It would be much more convenient for the EWR Gujarati flier base. They dropped EWR-LHR for BLR-LHR so the most likely scenario is that AMD-EWR isn't filling up the seats.


How much O&D exists for EWR out of AMD? Can they even fill a 77L? They couldn't even make a 787 work on the route! If the demand was there, I am sure one of the American biggies would have started Non-Stops to AMD already. Instead even they are piling onto BOM/DEL only. That says something.

The demand that is there is served by the one stop connections via BOM/DEL/DXB/AUH. Everyone wants non-stops to their hometown! Even I wish someone would start YUL-Hissar non-stop flights. But it is never going to happen.
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle! on twitter @Banwaarilal
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:38 am

Please keep on topic and do not discuss other users. If they violate forum rules, use the reporting function to notify the moderators.

Please read the forum rules if in doubt.

We are aviation enthusiasts and all cheer on our favorites. But if you want to discuss in detail, provide a link. If you accuse say on bribing, provide a link or the post could be deleted as flaimbait.

There are multiple moderators who frequent these threads. Please make it so we have nothing to moderate.

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NeBaNi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:41 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
While I don't agree with you about every company drowning in debt, I do agree that it is weird that Indian airlines and Indian unions are not pushing for lower taxes and access to working capital. It is so bizarre. It is like Indian aviation only lobbies the GOI to keep super tough regulations (5 year rule) or other nonsense. No one is fighting to make the industry healthier and poised for growth - NO ONE. So weird. If Jet is running out of cash, the unions should be screaming to make things better for Jet. Instead they sabotage Jet because they are late paying salaries (leaking it to the press which only pushes people away from making reservations)???? And add to it all those that would see India just had over aviation to the ME3 and you have a perfect storm. That said, I hope the Tatas get Jet. Maybe if there is one legitimate player, they will push a bit more (I get that the Tatas are part of the current Indian system so will play ball to a point).

I think the reason why they "sabotage" Jet is because they want to get paid. If I didn't have my salary paid on time, you bet I'd giving the short term solution (how to get paid for last month) a lot more importance than screaming to make things better for Jet, who probably will turn around and withhold salaries again at the next sign of trouble. People are short sighted and selfish when it comes to money, especially if it's money they depend on to feed mouths.
 
Blerg
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:46 am

Starting from 29 October 2019, Thai Lion Air will be increasing Bangkok-Mumbai from 4 to 6 weekly.

SL218 DMK0225 – 0540BOM 738 x46
SL219 BOM0650 – 1235DMK 738 x46
 
hohd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:31 pm

The five year and/or the 20 aircraft rule is no longer hobbling Indian carriers. Practically India now has AI, Jet, Indigo, GoAir and Spicejet in this category (VIstara to be soon in this category) which is sufficient for competition for international traffic. ME3 capacity is capped, especially EK so Indian carriers can take advantage of the lack of additional capacity, and AI is already doing it to Europe from DEL and adding flights to BOM. What is hobbling is the ultra low fares and capacity dumping by Indigo. At this rate no Indian airline can grow, except Indigo and Indigo is likely to cross 50% market share very soon.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:52 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
VTORD wrote:
Highly doubt they will reduce frequency on DEL-SF0, as its a very important and more importantly profitable destination for AI compared to AMD-EWR, which caters more to VFR paz more than high yielding biz pax
Surat is a good 3.5-4 hour drive from AMD so the day time travel advantage doesn't really pan out - BDQ yes, STV No. As I stated before, they are better off adding BDQ/STV from BOM that can provide good connections to the JFK/EWR flights and rotate the 77L out on DEL-BOM. It would be much more convenient for the EWR Gujarati flier base. They dropped EWR-LHR for BLR-LHR so the most likely scenario is that AMD-EWR isn't filling up the seats.


How much O&D exists for EWR out of AMD? Can they even fill a 77L? They couldn't even make a 787 work on the route! If the demand was there, I am sure one of the American biggies would have started Non-Stops to AMD already. Instead even they are piling onto BOM/DEL only. That says something.

The demand that is there is served by the one stop connections via BOM/DEL/DXB/AUH. Everyone wants non-stops to their hometown! Even I wish someone would start YUL-Hissar non-stop flights. But it is never going to happen.


So two things on AMD-EWR - (1) Demand is there for a nonstop but yield is not. I think yield is forgotten on this forum a lot. AMD-EWR is a VFR route (on both ends) with low to no full price J pax - a $2500 deep discount J pax doesn't count. Also the exact AMD-EWR demand is clouded by the fact that many US origin pax probably stop at BOM one way (2) the AMD-LHR-EWR routing really did nothing to make the journey better for pax. Other than AMD having a flight on paper to EWR (once again the city pride nonsense), pax don't care. It is a one stop. The VFR crowd who flies AI like the fact that AI is super Indian. The EWR-BOM-AMD routing is better for them as you connect in an Indian city and AI let you do immigration/customs in AMD. Finally, the EWR-LHR flight meant transiting in LHR after just 6 hours of flying. Many people like the long EWR-BOM flight as you can sleep. If you want to connect in the EU there are better options than AI. I seem to remember seeing UA EWR-LHR and then LHR-AMD on AI routings. I am sure these will continue and very few people will fly it.
 
VTORD
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:44 am

Not sure if this was discussed here before:

Jet Airways expands Singapore
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -dec-2018/
Twitter: @spottingfoodie
 
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pushpakvimaan
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:08 am

Air India launches Delhi - Nanded Services from November
http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/ ... 88117.html
 
sand26391
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:50 am

Alliance Air also starts daily HYD-KLH & BLR-KLH (Kolhapur) wef 01NOV.
 
Sindhuputra
Posts: 16
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:01 pm

VTORD wrote:
Not sure if this was discussed here before:

Jet Airways expands Singapore
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -dec-2018/


Was mentioned- but two things to note here

1. They dropped Chennai -Singapore already
2. Delhi one flight is downgauged and now all 3 will be 737s
 
Sindhuputra
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2018 (2)

Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:28 am

Incidentally singapore with 18 different cities connected could soon become the 4th or 5th most connected city to Indian airport pairs .more than many of the big Indian airports ... wait for it to sink in ?

Gauhati just got connected via druk air .vijaywada and Pune start in the next 4 weeks.

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