AirIndia wrote:

binayak wrote:

Didn't Air Deccan exist in 2003? The chart shows LCCs had 0% market share.

It just started ops towards the end of 2003 and it was only in 2004 they started larger ops after leasing A320s and offering INR500 fares on trunk routes. I remember having snatched one such fare on BOM-DEL, although it was close to 700 INR including taxes....

Air Deccan was a saviour for me cause of the cheap fares, sadly I never got the Rs. 500 or 700 ticket on the DEL - BOM route, got it for Rs. 1500 to 2000 which was way cheaper than what 9W or Sahara used to offer, I could meet my grandparents more frequently thanks to Air Deccan that time.

http://www.asianage.com/business/compan ... ondon.html
To summarize, 9W wanted to use the remaining unused rights of AI to LHR (another 7 weekly flights). However AI didn't allow this saying they'll launch more frequencies in BOM LHR which I find lame because last year they had even talked about BOM FRA.
Well guess how 9W would've used the additional rights for another daily to LHR. Perhaps BLR LHR with a 77W?

LHR BLR by 9W? I wish, but Unlikely IMO... mostly because of either lack of peak hour slots at LHR or correct me if I'm wrong in this but does 9W have any spare 777s for a long haul? I would think 9W is better placed to launch MAN-DEL maybe.. in 2019?

A question- Has Air India retired all its classic A320?(VT-ES* and VT-EP* series)

anubhav787 wrote:

A question- Has Air India retired all its classic A320?(VT-ES* and VT-EP* series)

Yes.

Interesting that 9W stock went 8% down today with B737Max order confirmation. Represents how worried investors are about 9W's debt

It appears India failed latest ICAO audit miserably, scoring poorly, less than DPRK and Nepal in some categories. Details are sketchy but it appears legislation, organization, airdromes and accident investigation scored low.

I guess discarding CAA draft bill finally paid off. Also, ICAO is insisting India to separate AirNAV services.

Probably time is ripe for an FAA audit and downgrade. Not sure inviting Trump for Republic Day 2019 will do the trick again.

sand26391 wrote:

LHR BLR by 9W? I wish, but Unlikely IMO... mostly because of either lack of peak hour slots at LHR or correct me if I'm wrong in this but does 9W have any spare 777s for a long haul? I would think 9W is better placed to launch MAN-DEL maybe.. in 2019?

9W had entered into a deal with KL regarding LHR slots. So that won't be much of an issue.
Currently 9W doesn't have any spare 77W but they can arrange for one easily. Make KL do AMS YYZ and stop sending 77W in BOM SIN during weekends if they launch SYD. That will spare one 77W for a five weekly BLR LHR . DEL MAN seems unlikely because of potential LCCs competition. If rights seem to be a problem, then VS can do BLR easily.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Probably time is ripe for an FAA audit and downgrade. Not sure inviting Trump for Republic Day 2019 will do the trick again.

Does that mean once again no Indian airline can code share with any US airline?

Sounds good but I dont think 9W will make this hapen.. The 777 will always be based from BOM/DEL IMO, unless ofcourse magically they bring the 787s into the picture. What I think 9w is planning to do is use the MAX to all possible regional intl routes from say BLR/BOM.
I know there is good demand btw BLR and LHR but not sure if theres soo much demand for a 2nd LHR flight btw the two cities. But hey who knows anything can happen. All we can do is speculate. VS probably can do a MAN 3x weekly I feel, not been to MAN and have no idea if VS have any sort of HUB at MAN.

WOW air's planned Delhi service, schedule is now listed until 28MAR19 only, instead of indefinite. Summer 2019 schedule is pending.

https://twitter.com/Airlineroute/status ... 0743245824

binayak wrote:

http://www.asianage.com/business/companies/160718/air-india-throws-spanner-in-jets-plans-for-more-flights-to-london.html
To summarize, 9W wanted to use the remaining unused rights of AI to LHR (another 7 weekly flights). However AI didn't allow this saying they'll launch more frequencies in BOM LHR which I find lame because last year they had even talked about BOM FRA.
Well guess how 9W would've used the additional rights for another daily to LHR. Perhaps BLR LHR with a 77W?

So AI is short of money but it has unused assets that can be monetized but it chooses not to.

Is there a problem here?

dtw2hyd wrote:

It appears India failed latest ICAO audit miserably, scoring poorly, less than DPRK and Nepal in some categories. Details are sketchy but it appears legislation, organization, airdromes and accident investigation scored low.

I guess discarding CAA draft bill finally paid off. Also, ICAO is insisting India to separate AirNAV services.

Probably time is ripe for an FAA audit and downgrade. Not sure inviting Trump for Republic Day 2019 will do the trick again.

Do Non Resident Indians know the difference between ICAO audit and a FAA audit? What does one have to do with another?

vadodara wrote:

binayak wrote:

http://www.asianage.com/business/companies/160718/air-india-throws-spanner-in-jets-plans-for-more-flights-to-london.html
To summarize, 9W wanted to use the remaining unused rights of AI to LHR (another 7 weekly flights). However AI didn't allow this saying they'll launch more frequencies in BOM LHR which I find lame because last year they had even talked about BOM FRA.
Well guess how 9W would've used the additional rights for another daily to LHR. Perhaps BLR LHR with a 77W?

So AI is short of money but it has unused assets that can be monetized but it chooses not to.

Is there a problem here?

The unused assets were a reason GOI thought AI sale will be successful.

unrave wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

It appears India failed latest ICAO audit miserably, scoring poorly, less than DPRK and Nepal in some categories. Details are sketchy but it appears legislation, organization, airdromes and accident investigation scored low.

I guess discarding CAA draft bill finally paid off. Also, ICAO is insisting India to separate AirNAV services.

Probably time is ripe for an FAA audit and downgrade. Not sure inviting Trump for Republic Day 2019 will do the trick again.

Do Non Resident Indians know the difference between ICAO audit and a FAA audit? What does one have to do with another?

ICAO audits air traffic control. The FAA audits aircraft maintenance and airline processes as well as the regulation of airlines by a nation.

It was a horrible audit:
https://indianexpress.com/article/busin ... s-5187409/

That low a score says ATC isn't by process, but by personality. Ugh oh...


Lightsaber

sand26391 wrote:

probably can do a MAN 3x weekly I feel, not been to MAN and have no idea if VS have any sort of HUB at MAN.

MAN isn’t a ‘hub’ in the traditional sense, but, it does have a few TATL routes that pax can connect onto, and can also be used to connect to various domestic U.K. points via the flybe/VS codeshares.

IndiGo maybe?

https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/101 ... 91968?s=19

sand26391 wrote:

IndiGo maybe?

https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/101 ... 91968?s=19

Really think so?
Someone who has published innumerable articles, created 4 threads in this website, has had lot of PR about long haul since more than a year, will be an "undisclosed " customer to Airbus?
Man, two billboards near my house are dedicated to 6E. I think that's where I'll get the news about their WB orders first.!!

binayak wrote:

...
Does that mean once again no Indian airline can code share with any US airline?

Indian carriers can place their code on US carriers, but US airlines cannot place their codes on Indian carriers. Also, no Indian carrier would be allowed to add new service to the USA.

FAA downgrades and upgrades are purely political. In 2012?? when DGCA was actually making real progress India was downgraded, but it was upgraded to Cat-1 without any corrective actions. For example, Malaysia with completely screwed up MH370 accident investigation scores high in accident investigation category. There are Wikileaks cables on how Australia was not downgraded because of political pressure.

Also, the FAA status is binary, EASA bans are micromanaged, they won't ban all airlines from a given country, because the country failed in one category.

AFAIK, Indian legislators and DGCA didn't fix any of the safety concerns found in the 2012 audit. Rumors suggest India got Cat-1 back because one of FAA auditors had a slip of tongue about then DGCA head and/or Obama was Republic day guest. Once India got Cat-I back, they didn't do anything in four years.

1) CAA should be independent(Modi threw away already finalized a draft bill for no reason)
2) Hire a lot of FSOs.
3) Separate Air Nav services (With the exception of UK and Canada, every other CAA is nursing on Air Nav revenues, very difficult to split)

@bin Its just a guess, many say it maybe for Air New Zealand. Someone told me 6E is looking at the 350 hence I posted. But looking at articles from past few months, they are looking to start WB ops this year itself.. so im not sure if they will get A350 or A330N get delivered so soon(?).

sand26391 wrote:

@bin Its just a guess, many say it maybe for Air New Zealand. Someone told me 6E is looking at the 350 hence I posted. But looking at articles from past few months, they are looking to start WB ops this year itself.. so im not sure if they will get A350 or A330N get delivered so soon(?).

See the entire topic of indigo long haul attracts lot of discussion. Many things aren't clear. Looking at the knowledge of those journalists (the ones who write such puff pieces for airlines). I won't be surprised if they call an a321LR a WB!!

Recently there were similar articles related to Go Air too. Looks like "wide bodies " and "long haul "have become favorite terms nowadays. Vistara is the only one to do something concrete.

Seems like the 6E widebody orders in the FA18 were all duds and just rumours... (for now).

AAI mulls increasing aircraft parking charges; airfares may go up
http://www.newindianexpress.com/busines ... 44574.html

Skytrax rankings
IndiGo 55 (from 57)
Jet airways 80(from 73)
Vistara 88(from 111)
Finally Sanjiv kapoor is successful.!!!

^^Plus UK won 3 awards at Skytrax & IndiGo won 1.

dtw2hyd wrote:

binayak wrote:

...
Does that mean once again no Indian airline can code share with any US airline?

Indian carriers can place their code on US carriers, but US airlines cannot place their codes on Indian carriers. Also, no Indian carrier would be allowed to add new service to the USA.

FAA downgrades and upgrades are purely political.

:no:

The FAA looks for certain artifacts in an audit. In prior audits, the India authorities were found to not following their process.
The FAA itself gets audited.

When the FAA finds fault, the way you get around any penalty is to correct the fault (Napal) quickly. You don't say 'there isn't a fault, you're wrong.' These are bureaucrats who have a need to show they are important. So if someone doesn't improve per findings, they react. There are no conspiracy theories and it is a bureaucracy proud to be independent of any administration. Don't ruffle a bureaucracy, it will find a need for you to feed it.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

binayak wrote:

...
Does that mean once again no Indian airline can code share with any US airline?

Indian carriers can place their code on US carriers, but US airlines cannot place their codes on Indian carriers. Also, no Indian carrier would be allowed to add new service to the USA.

FAA downgrades and upgrades are purely political.

:no:

The FAA looks for certain artifacts in an audit. In prior audits, the India authorities were found to not following their process.
The FAA itself gets audited.

When the FAA finds fault, the way you get around any penalty is to correct the fault (Napal) quickly. You don't say 'there isn't a fault, you're wrong.' These are bureaucrats who have a need to show they are important. So if someone doesn't improve per findings, they react. There are no conspiracy theories and it is a bureaucracy proud to be independent of any administration. Don't ruffle a bureaucracy, it will find a need for you to feed it.

Lightsaber

These are bureaucrats who have a need to show they are important.

The answer was already posted. Btw, somewhere in this thread it was posted to keep 'politics' away.

1) CAA should be independent(Modi threw away already finalized a draft bill for no reason)

sand26391 wrote:

Seems like the 6E widebody orders in the FA18 were all duds and just rumours... (for now).

Maybe. I can think of several reasons to delay.
1. It is a tough environment, so 6E might want to ensure they have cash on hand for any event.
2. Possible peak time charges without any added capacity for the added expense has a rethink of cash available.
3. Trying to negotiate a better price.

Buying aircraft takes time. In the current environment, it might be wise to jump on a deal (e.g., IR's A330NEO delivery slots) at the right price, or to play Boeing and Airbus off against each other.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

binayak wrote:

...
Does that mean once again no Indian airline can code share with any US airline?

Indian carriers can place their code on US carriers, but US airlines cannot place their codes on Indian carriers. Also, no Indian carrier would be allowed to add new service to the USA.

FAA downgrades and upgrades are purely political.

:no:

The FAA looks for certain artifacts in an audit. In prior audits, the India authorities were found to not following their process.
The FAA itself gets audited.

When the FAA finds fault, the way you get around any penalty is to correct the fault (Napal) quickly. You don't say 'there isn't a fault, you're wrong.' These are bureaucrats who have a need to show they are important. So if someone doesn't improve per findings, they react. There are no conspiracy theories and it is a bureaucracy proud to be independent of any administration. Don't ruffle a bureaucracy, it will find a need for you to feed it.

Lightsaber

There were several examples in the past where FAA Cat-1/2 was used as a political tool. Australia, Isreal, Malaysia, and Thailand are such examples. We can debate in detail on next FAA downgraded xxx thread.

In 2012 India's scores were very close to the world average, most SSCs were related to organization, ie., lack of independent CAA, not enough FSOs.

India promised to form CAA quickly, a bill was tabled a couple of times and was about to pass. Four years past, CAA bill was never even made parliamentary agenda. Rumor has it Modi doesn't want CAA, forgot the reason.

Without independent CAA, FSOs cannot be hired at market rates. Indian neither relaxed qualifications for FSOs. An Indian citizen with CPL is not going to settle for FSO job unless for medical reasons.

Now India's scores are way below the world's average in legislation, organization, air navigation services, and airdromes.
That is a significant degradation of the regulatory regime.

Diverting AirNav revenue is a worldwide issue. IMHO AirNav revenue should be strictly spent only on ATM infrastructure and ATC salaries, period. India has world's most advanced ATM infrastructure, yet failed ICAO audit.

FAA Administratior is a political appointee in a Constitutional Republic and passing a CAA bill in a Parliamentary Democracy involves politics.

sand26391 wrote:

^^Plus UK won 3 awards at Skytrax & IndiGo won 1.

Yeah. After all Sanjiv kapoor's efforts have borne fruits. UK has (somewhat mysteriously) become people's choice. I'm not denying Vistara are superb.
Let's see how long this lasts (Talking about Sanjiv kapoor's efforts not about UK. As an airline, UK hopefully will be well run)

I was speaking with a friend working in UK, he recently told me once they start regional Int'l ops the PR will be "Next level" inline with the likes of QR/EK/SQ.
But UK is actually much better than 9W in service and food ANYDAY. Its time 9W improve service/food or else they will become another Air India.

binayak wrote:

sand26391 wrote:

^^Plus UK won 3 awards at Skytrax & IndiGo won 1.

Yeah. After all Sanjiv kapoor's efforts have borne fruits. UK has (somewhat mysteriously) become people's choice. I'm not denying Vistara are superb.
Let's see how long this lasts (Talking about Sanjiv kapoor's efforts not about UK. As an airline, UK hopefully will be well run)

I give them credit if they are able to make their mark. India is a tough environment. I flew Spice BOM-Goa-BOM and thought it would be LCC craziness. It was actually quite well run. Not quite sure what they could do better. We took on roller bag hand luggage and no one said anything. Maybe the crowd on Vistara is better? Does Vistara always use a jet way? I would pay $5/10 each way to not have to deal with a bus.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

I give them credit if they are able to make their mark. India is a tough environment. I flew Spice BOM-Goa-BOM and thought it would be LCC craziness. It was actually quite well run. Not quite sure what they could do better. We took on roller bag hand luggage and no one said anything. Maybe the crowd on Vistara is better? Does Vistara always use a jet way? I would pay $5/10 each way to not have to deal with a bus.

As an LCC Spice is good and I specially like their hot meals they serve as unbundled product . Vistara currently, mostly uses jet bridges only (at least in BOM).

sand26391 wrote:

I was speaking with a friend working in UK, he recently told me once they start regional Int'l ops the PR will be "Next level" inline with the likes of QR/EK/SQ.
But UK is actually much better than 9W in service and food ANYDAY. Its time 9W improve service/food or else they will become another Air India.

Yes I agree with you. In terms of meals, 9W must review them (at least in Y. J meals are at par with UK).
Plus recent changes like box meals having just an Indian burger didn't have good response. They had promised that the box meals shall be upgraded and new menu will contain 8 savoury and 8 desert options .Each day there will be separate snacks in the boxes . Let's see when that is implimented.
I feel UK must try and have a JV with LH group. Then there will be 2 strong JVs of 2 strong alliances ready to get back lost pax to ME3. Contrary to what many people say, I think UK shouldn't try London, Hong Kong as their first destinations. First priority should be to connect at least 3 Indian cities to FRA /MUC /ZRH.

I don't know how many have heard this. GE's song dedicated to jet airways.. "jet my love " . Avgeek song of the year.

https://twitter.com/GEIndia/status/1019 ... 48992?s=19

UDAN has revolutionalised small town connectivity in India: 25 cities get air connectivity from 84 new flying routes. 39 more airports will be connected in the next three years

https://theprint.in/ideas-that-worked/h ... dia/79558/

(If you go back to Indian aviation thread from when this scheme was announced you will see familiar trolls mocking the initiative)

binayak wrote:

CaliguyNYC wrote:

I give them credit if they are able to make their mark. India is a tough environment. I flew Spice BOM-Goa-BOM and thought it would be LCC craziness. It was actually quite well run. Not quite sure what they could do better. We took on roller bag hand luggage and no one said anything. Maybe the crowd on Vistara is better? Does Vistara always use a jet way? I would pay $5/10 each way to not have to deal with a bus.

As an LCC Spice is good and I specially like their hot meals they serve as unbundled product . Vistara currently, mostly uses jet bridges only (at least in BOM).

sand26391 wrote:

I was speaking with a friend working in UK, he recently told me once they start regional Int'l ops the PR will be "Next level" inline with the likes of QR/EK/SQ.
But UK is actually much better than 9W in service and food ANYDAY. Its time 9W improve service/food or else they will become another Air India.

Yes I agree with you. In terms of meals, 9W must review them (at least in Y. J meals are at par with UK).
Plus recent changes like box meals having just an Indian burger didn't have good response. They had promised that the box meals shall be upgraded and new menu will contain 8 savoury and 8 desert options .Each day there will be separate snacks in the boxes . Let's see when that is implimented.
I feel UK must try and have a JV with LH group. Then there will be 2 strong JVs of 2 strong alliances ready to get back lost pax to ME3. Contrary to what many people say, I think UK shouldn't try London, Hong Kong as their first destinations. First priority should be to connect at least 3 Indian cities to FRA /MUC /ZRH.

I would think UK would get the best JV deal with BA/AA they must be desperate for an Indian partner. I feel like LH has AI so UK should let them be. I understand why people focus on STAR in India. Jet actually partnered with the weakest alliance from an India pov (IMHO) and look how that turned out. I think UK with AA/BA and SQ will be very strong. They should stay independent and partner with airlines in multiple alliances.

A summary of IndiGo's massive domestic expansion in July and August 2018
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-3q18/

New Routes:
Ahmedabad – Hubli eff 01JUL18 1 daily A320
Bangalore – Bagdogra eff 09AUG18 1 daily A320
Bangalore – Hubli eff 01JUL18 1 daily A320
Bangalore – Lucknow eff 09AUG18 1 daily A320
Bangalore – Raipur eff 05AUG18 1 daily A320
Bangalore – Surat eff 16AUG18 1 daily A320
Chandigarh – Srinagar eff 10JUL18 1 daily A320
Chennai – Hubli eff 01JUL18 1 daily A320
Chennai – Kozhikode eff 26JUL18 1 daily ATR72
Chennai – Tuticorin eff 26JUL18 3 daily ATR72
Delhi – Gorakhpur eff 01SEP18 1 daily A320
Delhi – Surat eff 16AUG18 1 daily A320
Hyderabad – Kolkata eff 10JUL18 1 daily A320
Hyderabad – Surat eff 16AUG18 1 daily A320
Jaipur – Surat eff 15AUG18 1 daily A320
Jaipur – Varanasi eff 16AUG18 1 daily A320
Kolkata – Chandigarh eff 16JUL18 1 daily A320
Kolkata – Indore eff 10JUL18 1 daily A320
Kolkata – Jorhat eff 01AUG18 1 daily A320
Lucknow – Goa eff 15JUL18 1 daily A320
Lucknow – Jaipur eff 09AUG18 1 daily A320
Lucknow – Pune eff 16JUL18 1 daily A320
Nagpur – Indore eff 10JUL18 1 daily A320
Mumbai – Bagdogra eff 12AUG18 1 daily A320
Mumbai – Surat eff 16AUG18 1 daily A320

Frequency increase:
Bangalore – Chandigarh eff 01JUL18 Increase from 7 to 13 weekly
Bangalore – Indore eff 01JUL18 Increase from 2 to 3 daily
Bangalore – Jaipur eff 05AUG18 Increase from 3 to 4 daily
Bangalore – Nagpur eff 05AUG18 Increase from 2 to 3 daily
Bangalore – Ranchi eff 01JUL18 Increase from 1 to 2 daily
Bangalore – Varanasi eff 01JUL18 Increase from 7 to 13 weekly
Bangalore – Visakhapatnam eff 05AUG18 Increase from 21 to 27 weekly
Hyderabad – Visakhapatnam eff 05AUG18 Increase from 5 to 6 daily
Kolkata – Nagpur eff 01AUG18 Increase from 1 to 2 daily
Kolkata – Patna eff 01AUG18 Increase from 3 to 4 daily

unrave wrote:

A summary of IndiGo's massive domestic expansion in July and August 2018
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-3q18/

New Routes:
Ahmedabad – Hubli eff 01JUL18 1 daily A320
Bangalore – Bagdogra eff 09AUG18 1 daily A320
Bangalore – Hubli eff 01JUL18 1 daily A320
Bangalore – Lucknow eff 09AUG18 1 daily A320
Bangalore – Raipur eff 05AUG18 1 daily A320
Bangalore – Surat eff 16AUG18 1 daily A320
Chandigarh – Srinagar eff 10JUL18 1 daily A320
Chennai – Hubli eff 01JUL18 1 daily A320
Chennai – Kozhikode eff 26JUL18 1 daily ATR72
Chennai – Tuticorin eff 26JUL18 3 daily ATR72
Delhi – Gorakhpur eff 01SEP18 1 daily A320
Delhi – Surat eff 16AUG18 1 daily A320
Hyderabad – Kolkata eff 10JUL18 1 daily A320
Hyderabad – Surat eff 16AUG18 1 daily A320
Jaipur – Surat eff 15AUG18 1 daily A320
Jaipur – Varanasi eff 16AUG18 1 daily A320
Kolkata – Chandigarh eff 16JUL18 1 daily A320
Kolkata – Indore eff 10JUL18 1 daily A320
Kolkata – Jorhat eff 01AUG18 1 daily A320
Lucknow – Goa eff 15JUL18 1 daily A320
Lucknow – Jaipur eff 09AUG18 1 daily A320
Lucknow – Pune eff 16JUL18 1 daily A320
Nagpur – Indore eff 10JUL18 1 daily A320
Mumbai – Bagdogra eff 12AUG18 1 daily A320
Mumbai – Surat eff 16AUG18 1 daily A320

Frequency increase:
Bangalore – Chandigarh eff 01JUL18 Increase from 7 to 13 weekly
Bangalore – Indore eff 01JUL18 Increase from 2 to 3 daily
Bangalore – Jaipur eff 05AUG18 Increase from 3 to 4 daily
Bangalore – Nagpur eff 05AUG18 Increase from 2 to 3 daily
Bangalore – Ranchi eff 01JUL18 Increase from 1 to 2 daily
Bangalore – Varanasi eff 01JUL18 Increase from 7 to 13 weekly
Bangalore – Visakhapatnam eff 05AUG18 Increase from 21 to 27 weekly
Hyderabad – Visakhapatnam eff 05AUG18 Increase from 5 to 6 daily
Kolkata – Nagpur eff 01AUG18 Increase from 1 to 2 daily
Kolkata – Patna eff 01AUG18 Increase from 3 to 4 daily

Thats really massive. Some really interesting city pairs coming up like Jaipur-Surat, Chandigarh-Srinagar...

Indigo's growth has been massive and almost surreal.

AirIndia wrote:

Thats really massive. Some really interesting city pairs coming up like Jaipur-Surat, Chandigarh-Srinagar...

Indigo's growth has been massive and almost surreal.

True, but 'journalists' from TheWire school of thought wholeheartedly believe that IndiGo's success is only due to favourable politicians and if the government were to change the airline will bite the dust in 6 months

unrave wrote:

UDAN has revolutionalised small town connectivity in India: 25 cities get air connectivity from 84 new flying routes. 39 more airports will be connected in the next three years

https://theprint.in/ideas-that-worked/h ... dia/79558/

(If you go back to Indian aviation thread from when this scheme was announced you will see familiar trolls mocking the initiative)

I am actually happy to see UDAN doing well, was a little skeptical in the beginning tbh. A couple of my colleagues have told me they are surprised by the growth shown in Hubli, as they werent expecting it to do so well. Similar in PNY where the BLR-PNY route is getting loads of 88%-92% every month. I am not aware of how UDAN is in the North, any reviews any1? Definitely theres a HUGE scope of UDAN

80 UDAN routes with 9 subsidized seats are no going to add any significant numbers too overall aviation traffic.

UDAN is not a success story as this puff piece claims, it is a total failure, most of the UDAN airports are not even calibrated properly(ICAO audit), can cause a major accident.

It is not clear whether 6E mainline is paying RCS cess, but it is collecting UDAN subsidies.

The ultimate achievement of dear leader, an FAA downgrade.

dtw2hyd wrote:

80 UDAN routes with 9 subsidized seats are no going to add any significant numbers too overall aviation traffic.

That is misinformation (or outright lies?). Perhaps non resident Indians do not understand what UDAN scheme is?
Fact#1: The goal of UDAN was not to 'add significant numbers to aviation traffic'. Anybody with a rudimentary grasp of statistics can understand that.
Fact#2: 50% of seats are subsidised, a minimum if 9 and a maximum of 40 (poor understanding again)

UDAN is not a success story as this puff piece claims, it is a total failure, most of the UDAN airports are not even calibrated properly(ICAO audit), can cause a major accident.

The very article mentions the number of new airports that have become operations because of UDAN. Is that utter failure in NRI lala land?

It is not clear whether 6E mainline is paying RCS cess, but it is collecting UDAN subsidies.

Spending a couple of minutes reading IndiGo's annual report would have clarified that. But who has the time for that?

The ultimate achievement of dear leader, an FAA downgrade.

I guess staying away from India results in NRIs mixing timelines in their brains. FAA downgrade happened in Jan 2014. I wonder whose achievement that was.

^^ Point taken, I'm actually curious how many of the total UDAN routes taken off? Have Air Odhisa & Air Deccan stopped ops already? I agree that the 9 or 20 seater beechcraft is not the best way to celebrate UDAN's success, I was merely taking example of HBX & PNY under UDAN doing well. Plus I see a lot of PR about UDAN over the news, esp Alliance Air launching from northern part of India.

Not going to try to explain math or logic to 2-week trained experts.

Even if all 88 daily ATR flights are at 100% PLF, it adds only 2M pax for ENTIRE YEAR. That is just a blip in two-digit growth. Still difficult to comprehend.

In a rush to satisfy the dear leader, UDAN airport runways are set up incorrectly. This caused ICAO SSC/low ranking in aerodromes category, add Prabhu's luck, may score a big one.

All these may result in several peer audits and another possible FAA downgrade.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Not going to try to explain math or logic to 2-week trained experts.

I can't recall math or logic being a strong suit of NRIs in this board.

Even if all 88 daily ATR flights are at 100% PLF, it adds only 2M pax for ENTIRE YEAR. That is just a blip in two-digit growth. Still difficult to comprehend.

Oh my God, how do NRIs survive in Amreeka if they struggle to comprehend such basic English? I repeat, UDAN does not and cannot increase passenger numbers in any significant number. The industry takes care of it - double digit growth since mid 2014 (wink wink). UDAN seeks to make operations at small airports viable so that aviation can reach the hinterlands - that, as the article illustrates with figures - and not speculation - has been a success so far

In a rush to satisfy the dear leader, UDAN airport runways are set up incorrectly.

Citation needed. Even NRIs should back their claims with citations - oh the horror.

All these may result in several peer audits and another possible FAA downgrade.

So it is all a crystal ball gaze from far away US of A then? Got it. Meanwhile, those of us who actually work with the industry will have actual facts to share when they become available.

sand26391 wrote:

^^ Point taken, I'm actually curious how many of the total UDAN routes taken off? Have Air Odhisa & Air Deccan stopped ops already? I agree that the 9 or 20 seater beechcraft is not the best way to celebrate UDAN's success, I was merely taking example of HBX & PNY under UDAN doing well. Plus I see a lot of PR about UDAN over the news, esp Alliance Air launching from northern part of India.

In terms of no. of airports that have become operational, UDAN is an unqualified success. However - not all the routes that were awarded under UDAN have become operational, for various reasons. And nobody knows the profitability of individual route and anybody who claims to know is lying. We (analysts) hope to pose this question to 6E management at the investor concall at the end of this month, but I am not sure they will answer this.

So, In summary

UDAN is not a success in terms of its contribution to passenger numbers.
UDAN is not a success in terms of airport connectivity, because of dear leader's shoddy job India may get downgraded, may curb growth in aviation, international expansion and loss of code-shares... the list goes on.

Just a reminder, last time DGCA came under ICAO radar because rich guys were doing all sorts of things with their biz jets. That issue snowballed and everyone paid price. This time it would be UDAN airports.

Sincere request to readers of this forum to disregard the summary above. Not a single statement there has any basis in reality. NRI opinions should be taken with bucket loads of salt.

unrave wrote:

A summary of IndiGo's massive domestic expansion in July and August 2018
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-3q18/

How much is their fleet stand? 170? They have had a huge growth rate this year.

171 is their latest count, 3 arrived today.

unrave wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Not going to try to explain math or logic to 2-week trained experts.

I can't recall math or logic being a strong suit of NRIs in this board.

Even if all 88 daily ATR flights are at 100% PLF, it adds only 2M pax for ENTIRE YEAR. That is just a blip in two-digit growth. Still difficult to comprehend.

Oh my God, how do NRIs survive in Amreeka if they struggle to comprehend such basic English? I repeat, UDAN does not and cannot increase passenger numbers in any significant number. The industry takes care of it - double digit growth since mid 2014 (wink wink). UDAN seeks to make operations at small airports viable so that aviation can reach the hinterlands - that, as the article illustrates with figures - and not speculation - has been a success so far

In a rush to satisfy the dear leader, UDAN airport runways are set up incorrectly.

Citation needed. Even NRIs should back their claims with citations - oh the horror.

All these may result in several peer audits and another possible FAA downgrade.

So it is all a crystal ball gaze from far away US of A then? Got it. Meanwhile, those of us who actually work with the industry will have actual facts to share when they become available.

Seriously you don't have a right to attack people like you have in this/previous posts. Someone's national origin ( in this case,"NRI") have nothing to do with his post. I'm sure flyertalk has rules on this. This is an AVIATION forum and your attacks and dtw2hyd's "dear leader" political attacks have zero place.

Going back to the topic. I agree with you. I think UDAN was/is a success. It was never meant to be high volumes. It is meant to connect low volume markets and give air connectivity to these smaller cities / routes. The subsidy should be removed once / if the market develops. Just like the US' Essential Air Services program does (the UDAN name really doesn't capture the essential part of the program). Sad thing is there is no room at BOM for too many UDAN flights. Small cities usually fight for connectivity to their nation's commercial hub (BOM) and capital (DEL). Imagine if the govt used all the money they flush down the toilet with AI to help build air connectivity in India with efficient airlines...

CaliguyNYC wrote:

I would think UK would get the best JV deal with BA/AA they must be desperate for an Indian partner. I feel like LH has AI so UK should let them be. I understand why people focus on STAR in India. Jet actually partnered with the weakest alliance from an India pov (IMHO) and look how that turned out. I think UK with AA/BA and SQ will be very strong. They should stay independent and partner with airlines in multiple alliances.

The problem with AA/BA is that they transfer traffic through only one hub (LHR) that too slot constrained. However LH group does the same through 3 hubs (actually 4 if you consider EWR) plus LH doesn't have AI. Well AI doesn't even fly DEL MUC/ZRH but can try places like ARN.
The 9W JV has really turned things around. KL for example which struggled with one flight to India has recently recorded 90% occupancy in their India flights.

sand26391 wrote:

171 is their latest count, 3 arrived today.

3 what? a320?