The Europe to Africa aviation market has always intrigued me... there aren't many routes in the world which have more importance than many Europe to Africa routes.
However, how many of these routes are subsidized and which ones in particular?

Also, I was surprised to find only 10 African nations have no European service at all.
Botswana
Comoros
Lesotho
Malawi
Somalia
South Sudan
Swaziland
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Please correct me if I have missed any out... I think the nations in bold could support some sort of connection to Europe.

Does TK count as a European airline? I believe they fly to Comoros and Somalia.

klakzky123 wrote:

Does TK count as a European airline? I believe they fly to Comoros and Somalia.

Well they fly from Istanbul which is definitely Europe

klakzky123 wrote:

Does TK count as a European airline? I believe they fly to Comoros and Somalia.

I didn't count them as a European carrier, I classed them as one of the ME3+1... prepare for the debate of whether TK is European or not

KLM served LUN and HRE several years ago. Not sure why it was cut. Nonetheless, I think these are most likely the first to get service (again). The others are just too small or poor.

Themotionman wrote:

klakzky123 wrote:

Does TK count as a European airline? I believe they fly to Comoros and Somalia.

I didn't count them as a European carrier, I classed them as one of the ME3+1... prepare for the debate of whether TK is European or not

Oh no, not that again...

Themotionman wrote:

klakzky123 wrote:

Does TK count as a European airline? I believe they fly to Comoros and Somalia.

I didn't count them as a European carrier, I classed them as one of the ME3+1... prepare for the debate of whether TK is European or not

TK is a European carrier

Themotionman wrote:

Also, I was surprised to find only 10 African nations have no European service at all.
Botswana
Comoros
Lesotho
Malawi
Somalia
South Sudan
Swaziland
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Please correct me if I have missed any out... I think the nations in bold could support some sort of connection to Europe.

That’s good news. Zimbabwe is most likely next to come off this list

Themotionman wrote:

... there aren't many routes in the world which have more importance than many Europe to Africa routes.

What do you mean with this statement? Why are many routes between Europe and Africa more important than many other routes?

factsonly wrote:

FlyingHollander wrote:

Martinair/KLM Cargo still serves HRE-AMS with B744ERF in 2018 = 1x weekly, via NBO:

It’s 3 times a week actually, on mondays, wednesdays and fridays. General cargo inbound, mostly veggies outbound.

FlyingHollander wrote:

KLM served LUN and HRE several years ago. Not sure why it was cut. Nonetheless, I think these are most likely the first to get service (again). The others are just too small or poor.

And several years before that, they also served LLW.

And from your list of countries, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Malawi and Botswana have had direct service in the past. Somalia and tbe Comores, see answers above.

MartijnNL wrote:

Themotionman wrote:

... there aren't many routes in the world which have more importance than many Europe to Africa routes.

What do you mean with this statement? Why are many routes between Europe and Africa more important than many other routes?

Because of the colonial past, Europe probably has the most O&D demand. On top of that, Europe is the continent's second biggest partner after China.

Themotionman wrote:

The Europe to Africa aviation market has always intrigued me... there aren't many routes in the world which have more importance than many Europe to Africa routes.

Well all present-day African states, with the exception of Ethiopia and maybe Liberia (this one is more complicated), were colonized by European countries, mostly by the United Kingdom and France, but also Belgium, Germany, Portugal, Spain and Italy.

You're talking about direct flights to the continent of Europe, right ?

Otherwise there are flights between the Comoros and nearby French islands.

MartijnNL wrote:

Themotionman wrote:

... there aren't many routes in the world which have more importance than many Europe to Africa routes.

What do you mean with this statement? Why are many routes between Europe and Africa more important than many other routes?

I mean historically, culturally and economically

We all know about the colonisation of Africa and the deep links that many African nations have with a particular European nation.

Using Bangui, Central African Republic as an example which has an AF flight to CDG, there are many cultural and historic links between the CAR and France. Also, to have a direct link to the developed world is of great economic importance to a country which is one of the world's poorest nations. Also, for the CAR, CDG is the only real hub that gives the CAR one-stop access to the world. So for many nations like CAR, the best way to connect to the rest of the world is via Europe or the Middle East due to the fact that there are only 3 or 4 hubs in Africa with a truly global reach, none of which have service to CAR.

Themotionman wrote:

Using Bangui, Central African Republic as an example which has an AF flight to CDG, there are many cultural and historic links between the CAR and France. Also, to have a direct link to the developed world is of great economic importance to a country which is one of the world's poorest nations. Also, for the CAR, CDG is the only real hub that gives the CAR one-stop access to the world. So for many nations like CAR, the best way to connect to the rest of the world is via Europe or the Middle East due to the fact that there are only 3 or 4 hubs in Africa with a truly global reach, none of which have service to CAR.

There was a time when it was easier to connect through CDG or LHR to get from point A to point B within Africa. Nowadays, it's significantly better, with better within Africa onnectivity, and greater variety of external options with more direct flights to North and South America and Asia), and we've already seen BA shut down much of their African network (ABJ, ADD, DAR, DUR, EBB, FNA, GBE, HRE, KAN, KRT, LLW, LUN, ROB and WDH are all destinations within Sub Saharan Africa previously served by BA).

Themotionman wrote:

klakzky123 wrote:

Does TK count as a European airline? I believe they fly to Comoros and Somalia.

I didn't count them as a European carrier, I classed them as one of the ME3+1... prepare for the debate of whether TK is European or not

That's pretty retarded. Just because IST is on the eastern fringe of Europe it doesn't make it any less European than LHR is for being on the western fringe of Europe.

As for the other question "However, how many of these routes are subsidized and which ones in particular?", I'd say that since most African carriers are government owned they all just about received subsidies one way or another.

Depends what you mean by European. Plenty of places not in Europe are more European than Istanbul.

I was curious to see how Juba airport looked like (considering it is one of the newest countries in the world) and I have found those pics: http://hotinjuba.com/7069-2/

Is this really Juba Airport? Where is the check-in made? How are there any security protocols there?

SCQ83 wrote:

I was curious to see how Juba airport looked like (considering it is one of the newest countries in the world) and I have found those pics: http://hotinjuba.com/7069-2/

Is this really Juba Airport? Where is the check-in made? How are there any security protocols there?

Makes LGA look palacial

https://www.sleepinginairports.net/2017 ... rports.htm

We already noted the lack of a real roof, but we should also mention the rotting plywood floors, and reports that people often fall through them. There is a noticeable lack of seating, but this may not be much of a concern, as most available seating tends to be broken or literally falling through the plywood floor. At Juba Airport, travellers don’t bother to complain about things like the lack of Wi-Fi and charging points - they’re more concerned about the lack of electricity in 40 degree Celsius heat! Non-existent air conditioning turns the tents into miniature sweat boxes. Voters also reported major crowds, horrific smells and filth, high heat, rain leaking into the tent, corruption and a lot of security walking around with guns. While time spent here is invariably unpleasant, we recognize that South Sudan is a war-torn state that perhaps has more pressing concerns.

airbazar wrote:

Themotionman wrote:

klakzky123 wrote:

Does TK count as a European airline? I believe they fly to Comoros and Somalia.

I didn't count them as a European carrier, I classed them as one of the ME3+1... prepare for the debate of whether TK is European or not

That's pretty retarded. Just because IST is on the eastern fringe of Europe it doesn't make it any less European than LHR is for being on the western fringe of Europe.

As for the other question "However, how many of these routes are subsidized and which ones in particular?", I'd say that since most African carriers are government owned they all just about received subsidies one way or another.

Well on the part about subsidies, I was actually more asking about the European carriers like AF, SN and TK

I think Norwegian should have focused on Europe-Africa rather that the saturated tatl market. The could potentially charge profitable fares and still stimulate traffic in less competitive destinations like DKR and ABJ and DLA.

usflyer msp wrote:

I think Norwegian should have focused on Europe-Africa rather that the saturated tatl market. The could potentially charge profitable fares and still stimulate traffic in less competitive destinations like DKR and ABJ and DLA.

Africa is meant to be the next for Norwegian. Bjorn Kjos said they are looking at Nigeria and South Africa and “There are a lot of African countries that are very interesting for Europeans to fly to - beautiful countries - that have a huge potential.”

Just to take Botswana, it has 2 million inhabitants, is close to South Africa, and focuses on high end tourism. There is therefore not that much traffic!

As for the rest of Africa, as for most poor counties, the economy of most African counties can only sustain a limited number of flights!

usflyer msp wrote:

I think Norwegian should have focused on Europe-Africa rather that the saturated tatl market. The could potentially charge profitable fares and still stimulate traffic in less competitive destinations like DKR and ABJ and DLA.

The problem with Africa is the cost of operations. It's really expensive to maintain reliable ground ops and an LCC is in no position to try and operate its own ground handling services. You would generally want to contract all of that out but in the case of Africa (with a few exceptions), that doesn't work. Even with high yields, the operational costs are so high that a lot of carriers still struggle.

klakzky123 wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

I think Norwegian should have focused on Europe-Africa rather that the saturated tatl market. The could potentially charge profitable fares and still stimulate traffic in less competitive destinations like DKR and ABJ and DLA.

The problem with Africa is the cost of operations. It's really expensive to maintain reliable ground ops and an LCC is in no position to try and operate its own ground handling services. You would generally want to contract all of that out but in the case of Africa (with a few exceptions), that doesn't work. Even with high yields, the operational costs are so high that a lot of carriers still struggle.

I’m trying to understand your argument about higher operational cost. What works so well in South Africa for foreign carriers that does not work so well in Ivory Coast (ABJ) or Cameroon(DLA)?

Themotionman wrote:

The Europe to Africa aviation market has always intrigued me... there aren't many routes in the world which have more importance than many Europe to Africa routes.
However, how many of these routes are subsidized and which ones in particular?

Also, I was surprised to find only 10 African nations have no European service at all.
Botswana
Comoros
Lesotho
Malawi
Somalia
South Sudan
Swaziland
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Please correct me if I have missed any out... I think the nations in bold could support some sort of connection to Europe.

Could you explain why routes from Europe to Africa are so important? Certainly from an African perspective, but I think there are much more important routes from a European perspective.

ubeema wrote:

klakzky123 wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

I think Norwegian should have focused on Europe-Africa rather that the saturated tatl market. The could potentially charge profitable fares and still stimulate traffic in less competitive destinations like DKR and ABJ and DLA.

The problem with Africa is the cost of operations. It's really expensive to maintain reliable ground ops and an LCC is in no position to try and operate its own ground handling services. You would generally want to contract all of that out but in the case of Africa (with a few exceptions), that doesn't work. Even with high yields, the operational costs are so high that a lot of carriers still struggle.

I’m trying to understand your argument about higher operational cost. What works so well in South Africa for foreign carriers that does not work so well in Ivory Coast (ABJ) or Cameroon(DLA)?

I am not getting it either. The carriers that fly to Africa use ground handling companies just like they do everywhere else in the world. I don't know of any Western carriers that have still have their own ground handling staff in these locations - there is usually a station manager and maybe a duty manager employed by the carrier but everything else is handled by the ground handler.

evanb wrote:

Themotionman wrote:

Using Bangui, Central African Republic as an example which has an AF flight to CDG, there are many cultural and historic links between the CAR and France. Also, to have a direct link to the developed world is of great economic importance to a country which is one of the world's poorest nations. Also, for the CAR, CDG is the only real hub that gives the CAR one-stop access to the world. So for many nations like CAR, the best way to connect to the rest of the world is via Europe or the Middle East due to the fact that there are only 3 or 4 hubs in Africa with a truly global reach, none of which have service to CAR.

There was a time when it was easier to connect through CDG or LHR to get from point A to point B within Africa. Nowadays, it's significantly better, with better within Africa onnectivity, and greater variety of external options with more direct flights to North and South America and Asia), and we've already seen BA shut down much of their African network (ABJ, ADD, DAR, DUR, EBB, FNA, GBE, HRE, KAN, KRT, LLW, LUN, ROB and WDH are all destinations within Sub Saharan Africa previously served by BA).

I'd just like to point out that British Airways have never flown to WDH despite what the British Airways Wikipedia quotes!

After the British Airways takeover of British Caledonian Airways in 1998 they also previously served several other destinations in Africa albeit briefly, they included BJL, DLA, FIH and NSI.

In the 1970's when several African countries banned overflight rights for flights originating from South Africa British Airways also briefly flew LHR-MPM-JNB.

Themotionman wrote:

The Europe to Africa aviation market has always intrigued me... there aren't many routes in the world which have more importance than many Europe to Africa routes.
However, how many of these routes are subsidized and which ones in particular?

Also, I was surprised to find only 10 African nations have no European service at all.
Botswana
Comoros
Lesotho
Malawi
Somalia
South Sudan
Swaziland
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Please correct me if I have missed any out... I think the nations in bold could support some sort of connection to Europe.

Duplicate

airbazar wrote:

Themotionman wrote:

klakzky123 wrote:

Does TK count as a European airline? I believe they fly to Comoros and Somalia.

I didn't count them as a European carrier, I classed them as one of the ME3+1... prepare for the debate of whether TK is European or not

That's pretty retarded. Just because IST is on the eastern fringe of Europe it doesn't make it any less European than LHR is for being on the western fringe of Europe.

As for the other question "However, how many of these routes are subsidized and which ones in particular?", I'd say that since most African carriers are government owned they all just about received subsidies one way or another.

Using the "retarded" word is a ballsy move, I must admit, but only makes you sound like a fool

I agree with the rest of your statement but can't take your seriously

One thing that I find amazing looking back to the late 1970's and up until fairly recently the amount of African airlines and in particular the flag carriers of those countries that previously had direct flights to London and in particular LGW.

It's quite an impressive list,

Afriqiyah Airlines to Tripoli
Air Afrique to Abidjan
Air Gabon to Libreville
Air Gambia to Banjul
Air Malawi to Blantyre
Air Maldives to Male
Air Namibia to Windhoek
Air Nigeria to Lagos
Air Seychelles to Mahe
Air Tanzania to Dar es Salaam
Air Zimbabwe to Harare
Cameroon Airlines to Douala and Yaoundé
Daallo Airlines to Djibouti
Ghana Airways to Accra (LHR)
Ghana International to Accra
Libyan Airlines to Benghazi and Tripoli (LHR)
Nigeria Airlines to Kano, Lagos and Port Harcourt (LHR)
Nationwide Airlines to Johannesburg
Sierra Leone Airways to Freetown
Sudan Airways to Khartoum (LHR and LGW)
Uganda Airlines to Entebbe
Virgin Nigeria to Lagos (LHR)
Virgin Nigeria to Port Harcourt
Zambia Airways to Lusaka (LHR)

You should price out some itineraries...it'll probably answer a lot of questions. Europe (really just about anywhere, especially China/Asia)-Africa is significantly cheaper than people imagine.

usflyer msp wrote:

I think Norwegian should have focused on Europe-Africa rather that the saturated tatl market. The could potentially charge profitable fares and still stimulate traffic in less competitive destinations like DKR and ABJ and DLA.

LCCs in Africa have been a disaster. Just ask Fastjet.

Interesting thread. Some comments:
1. TK are a European airline with its main hub on the European continent
2. BA never flew to WDH. Why would they? There is no historical connection. SW briefly had an LGW tag on to its FRA service, but was cancelled due to lack of demand.
3. the Maledives are in Asia.

It's quite surprising that Zambia lost its connection to London (by BA). It is a fairly stable country and has a vibrant mining economy, balanced with tourism.

May be a triangular Zambia/Botswana service would work.

raylee67 wrote:

It's quite surprising that Zambia lost its connection to London (by BA). It is a fairly stable country and has a vibrant mining economy, balanced with tourism.

May be a triangular Zambia/Botswana service would work.

I feel like the problem with Zambia is that Lusaka isn't much of a tourist destination whereas Livingstone isn't really handling international wide bodies, less known than VFA on the other side and far far away from the mines up north in the copperbelt or Lusaka and thus not really attractive to business travellers. In Botswana, which airport would they fly to? Gaborone is far off all tourist destinations and better served by JNB and all other airports in Botswana are no business destinations at all plus all airports aside from the tiny Chobe airport would be a massive detour on such a triangular route. Personally , I would think that before any of the Zambia/Botswana stuff happens we'll see a triangular LGW-HRE-VFA-LGW service.

Oh and as for the 'TK discussion', here are my two cents as a European. TK certainly operates one of their hubs on the European continent but they are European in the same way that Aeromexico is an American airlines. It certainly is but among many of us continental Europeans to adjective European has gotten a second, more political meaning.

SCQ83 wrote:

I was curious to see how Juba airport looked like (considering it is one of the newest countries in the world) and I have found those pics: http://hotinjuba.com/7069-2/

Is this really Juba Airport? Where is the check-in made? How are there any security protocols there?

I've been in and out of Juba several times, thankfully with access to the "VIP lounge." It's all relative but the AC works in there. Whatever you do, use the restroom before you get out there. It's the most disgusting thing I've seen. It will make the lav on the plane look the Taj Mahal. The worst part is sitting on the aircraft waiting to depart. The plane is hot as hell, to the point of stifling.

As someone else correctly pointed out, air travel in Africa has gotten better over the years. Going through Europe to go from point A to B in Africa was almost always the more reliable. But I do miss those days of Cameroon Airlines and the likes. As I like to stick with Star Alliance carries, my favorites on Europe to Africa and vice versa are Brussels and Ethiopian. Lufthansa to ADD is ok but the stop in Jeddah sucks, makes it unattractive because of the additional travel time.

JayBCNLON wrote:

Interesting thread. Some comments:
1. TK are a European airline with its main hub on the European continent
2. BA never flew to WDH. Why would they? There is no historical connection. SW briefly had an LGW tag on to its FRA service, but was cancelled due to lack of demand.
3. the Maledives are in Asia.

SW did operate nonstop LGW-WDH, it was not a tag on to FRA.
I believe it was 2 or 3 weekly, the other days were from FRA.
They quit LGW to make FRA daily, as there is much more money to make on this route (historical ties Germany-Namibia, I believe, and very popular in the German market).

klakzky123 wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

I think Norwegian should have focused on Europe-Africa rather that the saturated tatl market. The could potentially charge profitable fares and still stimulate traffic in less competitive destinations like DKR and ABJ and DLA.

The problem with Africa is the cost of operations. It's really expensive to maintain reliable ground ops and an LCC is in no position to try and operate its own ground handling services. You would generally want to contract all of that out but in the case of Africa (with a few exceptions), that doesn't work. Even with high yields, the operational costs are so high that a lot of carriers still struggle.

Above and beyond the cost of operations, it’s the airport fees that basically make flying to Africa a non starter. Just look at the amount of flights and compare them to the fixed cost of running an airport. You will often find that a few flight a day have to pay for the cost of running an airport. This makes it really expensive to make flying cheap to/from Africa!

British Airways have dumped their code and much of the P and L risk up on franchise partner Comair operating feeders into Johannesburg of late.

UK has had little historical ties with the Central African belt and still doesn’t aside from doggy mining contracts. Those that might need to visit this area tend towards rather more personal and perhaps a little luxurious and safe transport methods or route via Brussels or Paris often with armed protection during their stay.

Operations into what should be a profitable and rich with developing middle class nation that being Nigeria encounter currency transfer problems , local corruption aside from basic inequity also corrupted by local greed among governing elites.

Areas in Northern Nigeria, Niger, Central African Republic, Chad and Mali are in a state of perpetual civil unrest and indeed outright war and Islamic extremism.

Even as far north as the disputed and Morrocan occupied Western Sahara severe restrictions on movements prevent access and egress impacting aviation.

Mauritania is among the poorest nations on the planet only relatively recently - 1981 abolished legal slavery and currently thinks putting a couple of red stripes on the flag the most important thing ahead of education particularly of girls .

Libya need is say anything at all. Anachic prevails courtesy of France and the UK what a complete mess.

Egypt dealing with internal terrorists and more corruption including an utterly decredited election only days ago.

Sudan and breakaway Southern Sudan perpetual religious wars.

Eritrea and Ethiopia ditto

Somalia and Somaliland ditto

Frankly until sub Saharan Africa actually grows up the continent will not change and none of the above conflicts today are the past colonial powers faults imho.

Add Angola still in the hands of so called communists , DRC controlled by various fractions including elements using forced labour (little more than slaves) in doggy mining operations.

As for China they act little different to those past colionial powers either . They simply want to steel the continents potential natural resources and the irony is they are being quite successful too but putting local lives and advancement at risk just as Europeans did in the previous two century’s.

Now wonder why aviation is rather limited and fares somewhat high and above is just a sample of the African messes

Africa as a continent is a complete mess today.

Aviation suffers the effects of poor to negative economical growth and endemic corruption that impedes middle class expansions in particular - those that might actually want or need to travel for business and increasingly for pleasure.

MaverickM11 wrote:

You should price out some itineraries...it'll probably answer a lot of questions. Europe (really just about anywhere, especially China/Asia)-Africa is significantly cheaper than people imagine.

usflyer msp wrote:

I think Norwegian should have focused on Europe-Africa rather that the saturated tatl market. The could potentially charge profitable fares and still stimulate traffic in less competitive destinations like DKR and ABJ and DLA.

LCCs in Africa have been a disaster. Just ask Fastjet.

Most of the cheap fares involve connection in North Africa and can be sold in Europe ie. Euro point-of-sale has low fares but African point-of-sale does not. I also think DY could get a premium for non-stop flights and being a "safe" brand.

Fastjet has been a disaster but it is flying intra-africa which presents different set of challenges to the LCC business model than Europe-Africa. FastJet faces low internet and credit card penetration which means they had build a sales network with travel agencies and protectionist governments playing games with traffic rights. DY would sell most of their tickets in Europe so the TA issue would be minor and the African authorities are less likely play games with a Euro carrier.

DY might not make money in Africa but I would give it a better chance than more flights to North America.

rutankrd wrote:

British Airways have dumped their code and much of the P and L risk up on franchise partner Comair operating feeders into Johannesburg of late.

UK has had little historical ties with the Central African belt and still doesn’t aside from doggy mining contracts. Those that might need to visit this area tend towards rather more personal and perhaps a little luxurious and safe transport methods or route via Brussels or Paris often with armed protection during their stay.

Operations into what should be a profitable and rich with developing middle class nation that being Nigeria encounter currency transfer problems , local corruption aside from basic inequity also corrupted by local greed among governing elites.

Areas in Northern Nigeria, Niger, Central African Republic, Chad and Mali are in a state of perpetual civil unrest and indeed outright war and Islamic extremism.

Even as far north as the disputed and Morrocan occupied Western Sahara severe restrictions on movements prevent access and egress impacting aviation.

Mauritania is among the poorest nations on the planet only relatively recently - 1981 abolished legal slavery and currently thinks putting a couple of red stripes on the flag the most important thing ahead of education particularly of girls .

Libya need is say anything at all. Anachic prevails courtesy of France and the UK what a complete mess.

Egypt dealing with internal terrorists and more corruption including an utterly decredited election only days ago.

Sudan and breakaway Southern Sudan perpetual religious wars.

Eritrea and Ethiopia ditto

Somalia and Somaliland ditto

Frankly until sub Saharan Africa actually grows up the continent will not change and none of the above conflicts today are the past colonial powers faults imho.

Add Angola still in the hands of so called communists , DRC controlled by various fractions including elements using forced labour (little more than slaves) in doggy mining operations.

As for China they act little different to those past colionial powers either . They simply want to steel the continents potential natural resources and the irony is they are being quite successful too but putting local lives and advancement at risk just as Europeans did in the previous two century’s.

Now wonder why aviation is rather limited and fares somewhat high and above is just a sample of the African messes

Africa as a continent is a complete mess today.

Aviation suffers the effects of poor to negative economical growth and endemic corruption that impedes middle class expansions in particular - those that might actually want or need to travel for business and increasingly for pleasure.

Donald Trump, is that you? You might as well just call them sh-tholes. There are plenty of politically stable and fast growing economies in Africa - Ghana, Senegal, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Uganda, Botswana, Malawi, Namibia would all take issue with your characterization. As their middle class continues to grow and tourism sectors develop they will attract more services.
BTW, there are no religious wars going on in Ethiopia, Eritrea, or Sudan...

First of all, the OP was as to 'western' European countries, including former colonizers in Africa.
There is just no money to be made by direct/non-stop service by EC based airlines into many locations in Africa, especially with their legacy costs, the local costs at African airports, the cost of corruption, fare competition with airlines based outside the EC.
Many of the possible airports discussed have serious security weaknesses that are unacceptable for EC airlines to operate.
I also think there is a big political reason EC based carriers don't want to serve some of these African markets. They want to make it as difficult as possible for economic and other refugees to get in and claim asylum. Better to go through and transfer at a more secure African or other airport and with other airlines (ME3, TK) so can be a check points to keep them out.

One big problem (you could say elephant in the room...sorry) is the operational headache of crews.

Most of those African routes (if not all) are not capable of being flown out and back by the same crew. That means you have to overnight them somewhere, possibly for several days if it's a once-or twice weekly flight to a very thin destination. This might work in places like Lagos or Johannesburg, but needing to find good accommodation and security for crews gets expensive the more days and nights the crews are downline.

JNB and LOS are daily routes. Those are not so bad. Rostering crews to somewhere "exotic" could mean unions wanting danger premiums, as well as days and nights on pay sat in what would be expensive rooms. The cost of all this as well as local handling and managers makes the routes tough to turn a profit on.

Channex757 wrote:

One big problem (you could say elephant in the room...sorry) is the operational headache of crews.

Most of those African routes (if not all) are not capable of being flown out and back by the same crew. That means you have to overnight them somewhere, possibly for several days if it's a once-or twice weekly flight to a very thin destination. This might work in places like Lagos or Johannesburg, but needing to find good accommodation and security for crews gets expensive the more days and nights the crews are downline.

JNB and LOS are daily routes. Those are not so bad. Rostering crews to somewhere "exotic" could mean unions wanting danger premiums, as well as days and nights on pay sat in what would be expensive rooms. The cost of all this as well as local handling and managers makes the routes tough to turn a profit on.

LOS is one of the more challenging places on the continent. It certainly has good hotels but aside the security situation is arguably not as good as in many other African countries. You'd find hotels on par and a better security situation in so many other African destinations including all of Southern Africa (that explicitly includes Zimbabwe) and all of East Africa (including places like Rwanda). If you fly to Lagos, you can fly to almost any African country except for maybe a small belt in the Sahel zone and Central Africa

usflyer msp wrote:

rutankrd wrote:

British Airways have dumped their code and much of the P and L risk up on franchise partner Comair operating feeders into Johannesburg of late.

UK has had little historical ties with the Central African belt and still doesn’t aside from doggy mining contracts. Those that might need to visit this area tend towards rather more personal and perhaps a little luxurious and safe transport methods or route via Brussels or Paris often with armed protection during their stay.

Operations into what should be a profitable and rich with developing middle class nation that being Nigeria encounter currency transfer problems , local corruption aside from basic inequity also corrupted by local greed among governing elites.

Areas in Northern Nigeria, Niger, Central African Republic, Chad and Mali are in a state of perpetual civil unrest and indeed outright war and Islamic extremism.

Even as far north as the disputed and Morrocan occupied Western Sahara severe restrictions on movements prevent access and egress impacting aviation.

Mauritania is among the poorest nations on the planet only relatively recently - 1981 abolished legal slavery and currently thinks putting a couple of red stripes on the flag the most important thing ahead of education particularly of girls .

Libya need is say anything at all. Anachic prevails courtesy of France and the UK what a complete mess.

Egypt dealing with internal terrorists and more corruption including an utterly decredited election only days ago.

Sudan and breakaway Southern Sudan perpetual religious wars.

Eritrea and Ethiopia ditto

Somalia and Somaliland ditto

Frankly until sub Saharan Africa actually grows up the continent will not change and none of the above conflicts today are the past colonial powers faults imho.

Add Angola still in the hands of so called communists , DRC controlled by various fractions including elements using forced labour (little more than slaves) in doggy mining operations.

As for China they act little different to those past colionial powers either . They simply want to steel the continents potential natural resources and the irony is they are being quite successful too but putting local lives and advancement at risk just as Europeans did in the previous two century’s.

Now wonder why aviation is rather limited and fares somewhat high and above is just a sample of the African messes

Africa as a continent is a complete mess today.

Aviation suffers the effects of poor to negative economical growth and endemic corruption that impedes middle class expansions in particular - those that might actually want or need to travel for business and increasingly for pleasure.

Donald Trump, is that you? You might as well just call them sh-tholes. There are plenty of politically stable and fast growing economies in Africa - Ghana, Senegal, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Uganda, Botswana, Malawi, Namibia would all take issue with your characterization. As their middle class continues to grow and tourism sectors develop they will attract more services.
BTW, there are no religious wars going on in Ethiopia, Eritrea, or Sudan...

I have pm’ed you but here in the public forum with the exception of Ethiopia all your own list were specifically excluded from my rant. I agree these can be considered as beacons of hope in the main .

Still many of those named countries continue to have human rights issues that need addressing in the wider world communities right now.

klakzky123 wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

I think Norwegian should have focused on Europe-Africa rather that the saturated tatl market. The could potentially charge profitable fares and still stimulate traffic in less competitive destinations like DKR and ABJ and DLA.

The problem with Africa is the cost of operations.

It's not just the cost of operating in Africa that is high, most of it comes from very high insurance costs actually. But most African countries have very restrictive bilateral agreements which prevent even the incumbent carriers from expanding there let alone allow for new and added competition.

sw733 wrote:

Using the "retarded" word is a ballsy move, I must admit, but only makes you sound like a fool

I'm not a snowflake and I have no patience for this new age, made-up nonsense. I have no problem with the use of the word "retarded". It's short for "retardation" which is a clinical term.

rutankrd wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

rutankrd wrote:

British Airways have dumped their code and much of the P and L risk up on franchise partner Comair operating feeders into Johannesburg of late.

UK has had little historical ties with the Central African belt and still doesn’t aside from doggy mining contracts. Those that might need to visit this area tend towards rather more personal and perhaps a little luxurious and safe transport methods or route via Brussels or Paris often with armed protection during their stay.

Operations into what should be a profitable and rich with developing middle class nation that being Nigeria encounter currency transfer problems , local corruption aside from basic inequity also corrupted by local greed among governing elites.

Areas in Northern Nigeria, Niger, Central African Republic, Chad and Mali are in a state of perpetual civil unrest and indeed outright war and Islamic extremism.

Even as far north as the disputed and Morrocan occupied Western Sahara severe restrictions on movements prevent access and egress impacting aviation.

Mauritania is among the poorest nations on the planet only relatively recently - 1981 abolished legal slavery and currently thinks putting a couple of red stripes on the flag the most important thing ahead of education particularly of girls .

Libya need is say anything at all. Anachic prevails courtesy of France and the UK what a complete mess.

Egypt dealing with internal terrorists and more corruption including an utterly decredited election only days ago.

Sudan and breakaway Southern Sudan perpetual religious wars.

Eritrea and Ethiopia ditto

Somalia and Somaliland ditto

Frankly until sub Saharan Africa actually grows up the continent will not change and none of the above conflicts today are the past colonial powers faults imho.

Add Angola still in the hands of so called communists , DRC controlled by various fractions including elements using forced labour (little more than slaves) in doggy mining operations.

As for China they act little different to those past colionial powers either . They simply want to steel the continents potential natural resources and the irony is they are being quite successful too but putting local lives and advancement at risk just as Europeans did in the previous two century’s.

Now wonder why aviation is rather limited and fares somewhat high and above is just a sample of the African messes

Africa as a continent is a complete mess today.

Aviation suffers the effects of poor to negative economical growth and endemic corruption that impedes middle class expansions in particular - those that might actually want or need to travel for business and increasingly for pleasure.

Donald Trump, is that you? You might as well just call them sh-tholes. There are plenty of politically stable and fast growing economies in Africa - Ghana, Senegal, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Uganda, Botswana, Malawi, Namibia would all take issue with your characterization. As their middle class continues to grow and tourism sectors develop they will attract more services.
BTW, there are no religious wars going on in Ethiopia, Eritrea, or Sudan...

I have pm’ed you but here in the public forum with the exception of Ethiopia all your own list were specifically excluded from my rant. I agree these can be considered as beacons of hope in the main .

Still many of those named countries continue to have human rights issues that need addressing in the wider world communities right now.

rutankrd please this is not the place for rants! And now you’re moving on to human rights??? Think about starting your own thread because you are off topic.

Does anyone else think the A321LR will be a key factor in bypassing the ME3/1 on EU/Africa

Long thin where WB too much?

BA AF LH TP IB would have ideal hubs to reach Africa with the right sized equipment.