http://worldindependant.com/british-air ... ine-deals/

Per the report in the link, BA has been trying to catch up by signing new deals with Chinese airlines that would give BA more access to fly passengers around China, as BA has the smallest presence of the three big European carriers in China so far

The company has only 37 one-way flights a week to three cities – Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong – compared to Air-France KLM with 67 flights to eight cities and Lufthansa Group with 90 a week to seven destinations.

The airline signed MU in 2016 and CZ in 2017 as new “code-share” partners to sell tickets beyond the first-tier cities of Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong to other parts of the mainland flown by partnered Chinese airlines, and became one of the few airlines to partner with all the major Chinese carriers: HU, CA, KA, CX,CZ, MU

BA has also called on the British government to relax visa restrictions and roll out 10-year visas for Chinese tourists.

BA's CEO also admitted Chengdu had been a "really good learning experience" for them, referring to the airline's LHR-CTU service that ended in 2016 after just three years when local governmental subsidies expired

What do you think of BA's efforts to expand service to China? Are they working in the right direction? And what lessons could they have learned from their failure at CTU? What experience could they draw from their peer European competitors like LH and AF-KL in running services to China, particularly to China's second-tier-city destinations?

Maps showing Chinese destinations served by the big 3 European carriers (AMS-TPE not included)

Next destination is likely to be: CAN, INC or CGO.

I think the UK visa restrictions is the biggest barrier BA has to expanding in China.

BA failed with Chengdu. How about Urumqi ?

When did BA stop CTU? That one was short lived.

Also, not all that impactful, but the IAG map is missing MAD-PVG.

I would think that the best method here would be an IAG purchase of AY, but I can't see them spending any large amount of cash until there is clarity about Brexit.

When a Chinese tourist makes a once in a lifetime trip to Europe they need a visa. They get themselves an EU visa for the Schengen zone. If they want to visit the UK, they need a separate UK visa. Most don't bother, and only visit mainland Europe. This cannot improve with Brexit unless the UK government decides to make UK visas cheap and easy for Chinese tourists.
Chengdu was good for business, but bad for tourists.

The HNA Group might be an interesting bet, given that HU are expanding to secondary British Isles destinations, like DUB (which could link into IAG's EI / DUB hub) and EDI, and other group carriers like GS have recently launched LON. As HU is not alliance-aligned, this would create less risks for oneworld relationships, than aligning with CA, CZ or MU. While the HNA Group has financial issues at the moment, they allegedly have ties to the Chinese government, which have seen them financially supported by the state-owned banks.

Cheers,

C.

LupineChemist wrote:

When did BA stop CTU? That one was short lived.

Also, not all that impactful, but the IAG map is missing MAD-PVG.

I would think that the best method here would be an IAG purchase of AY, but I can't see them spending any large amount of cash until there is clarity about Brexit.

It’s been rumored that IB wants to serve Pekin as well.

Tristarsteve wrote:

When a Chinese tourist makes a once in a lifetime trip to Europe they need a visa. They get themselves an EU visa for the Schengen zone. If they want to visit the UK, they need a separate UK visa. Most don't bother, and only visit mainland Europe. This cannot improve with Brexit unless the UK government decides to make UK visas cheap and easy for Chinese tourists.
Chengdu was good for business, but bad for tourists.

Which won't happen anytime soon. The UK Border Agency is making too much money on these visas, not just for Chinese!

HHL's solution to this "problem" is (unsurprisingly) an expensive third runway at LHR where BA can assemble a market so that "strategic" routes from the UK to secondary Chinese cities are viable.

Tristarsteve wrote:

When a Chinese tourist makes a once in a lifetime trip to Europe they need a visa. They get themselves an EU visa for the Schengen zone. If they want to visit the UK, they need a separate UK visa. Most don't bother, and only visit mainland Europe. This cannot improve with Brexit unless the UK government decides to make UK visas cheap and easy for Chinese tourists.
Chengdu was good for business, but bad for tourists.

It's not going to change with brexit considering they can't visit without a visa anyway...

Wouldn't AY provide easier increase in capacity to China via HEL? Also they could work out an agreement for strong codeshare on transfers Great Britain - Finland.
Please, apologise if I am ignorant and something like that already exists

Both LH and AF/KLM Group have excellent feeder networks at their hubs so connections to second tier Chinese cities become more viable. IAG is restricted at LHR and the slots it does have use can be used more profitably to North America which remains an area of focus. BA also lacks high frequency connections to a lot of second tier European cities which is also a result of lack of suitable aircraft at LHR. BA's purpose is to connect London with intercontinental first tier cities and there's little money to be made outside the big 3. Long term we could probably see 2nd A380 to HKG, BA161 become daily and second daily to PEK with a red eye coming back.

LupineChemist wrote:

I would think that the best method here would be an IAG purchase of AY, but I can't see them spending any large amount of cash until there is clarity about Brexit.

AY joining IAG has been rumoured for years, but there won't be any progress on this front as long as the state of Finland is unwilling to give up its majority ownership. Furthermore there's the issue of Siberian overflight permissions requiring that majority of the ownership of AY is in Finnish hands.

But even if it were to happen it wouldn't change the big picture, in any case Oneworld as a whole needs to find a Chinese partner.

LupineChemist wrote:

When did BA stop CTU? That one was short lived.

Late 2016. It wasn't so short-lived, they gave it three years.

The aircraft pulled from that route was then used to launch LHR-MSY.

Arion640 wrote:

Tristarsteve wrote:

When a Chinese tourist makes a once in a lifetime trip to Europe they need a visa. They get themselves an EU visa for the Schengen zone. If they want to visit the UK, they need a separate UK visa. Most don't bother, and only visit mainland Europe. This cannot improve with Brexit unless the UK government decides to make UK visas cheap and easy for Chinese tourists.
Chengdu was good for business, but bad for tourists.

It's not going to change with brexit considering they can't visit without a visa anyway...

Even legal (non-EU nationals) permanent residents in the EU Schengen area need to apply for a tourist UK visa... which is valid for only 6 months!!!
There's not even an simplified way to issue this tourism UK VISA for trusted foreign nationals with permanent residence in neighbouring EU countries, so it's hard to imagine it will be any easier for Chinese nationals.

Nami wrote:

Furthermore there's the issue of Siberian overflight permissions requiring that majority of the ownership of AY is in Finnish hands.

That's not a problem with IAG. BA is +50% owned by a British entity and IB is +50% owned by a Spanish entity. The same could be done with AY.

Nami wrote:

But even if it were to happen it wouldn't change the big picture, in any case Oneworld as a whole needs to find a Chinese partner.

There were rumors in the past indicating that BA could seek increased Indian and Chinese presence via franchises. Just like the one in South Africa with part-owned Comair or the previous one in Kenya with Airkenya Aviation Ltd, (Regional Air)

Nami wrote:

Furthermore there's the issue of Siberian overflight permissions requiring that majority of the ownership of AY is in Finnish hands.

Is BA restricted from overflying Siberia?

SQ789 wrote:

Next destination is likely to be: CAN, INC or CGO.

Wondering why INC is a likely choice

TC957 wrote:

I think the UK visa restrictions is the biggest barrier BA has to expanding in China.

Agree. That may well apply to a number of carriers operating long-haul services to and from China due to the visa issue that poses a constant headache to the vast majority of highly affordable Chinese nationals aspiring after outbound tours, esp. to the developed countries

A counter example of this was the relaxation of visa requirements for Chinese citizens by the UAE starting from Sept 2016, which resulted in a surge of Chinese visitors to DXB to total 1,339,534 (+28%) in 2017, according to DXB press release earlier this year

BTW, the visa issue is among the most oft-discussed popular topics on Chinese travel and aviation forums

SQ789 wrote:

Next destination is likely to be: CAN, INC or CGO.

Any particular reason for your 'personal choice' of destinations?

Cunard wrote:

Kadish wrote:

LupineChemist wrote:

When did BA stop CTU? That one was short lived.

Also, not all that impactful, but the IAG map is missing MAD-PVG.

I would think that the best method here would be an IAG purchase of AY, but I can't see them spending any large amount of cash until there is clarity about Brexit.

It’s been rumored that IB wants to serve Pekin as well.

How old are you still referring to it as PEKING rather than the more appropriate name of BEIJING!

I believe some languages still refer to it by the old name.

Incidentally, do you call it Czech Republic or Czechia? Name changes can take time.

Cunard wrote:

Kadish wrote:

LupineChemist wrote:

When did BA stop CTU? That one was short lived.

Also, not all that impactful, but the IAG map is missing MAD-PVG.

I would think that the best method here would be an IAG purchase of AY, but I can't see them spending any large amount of cash until there is clarity about Brexit.

It’s been rumored that IB wants to serve Pekin as well.

How old are you still referring to it as PEKING rather than the more appropriate name of BEIJING!

In Spanish the city is referred to as Pekín, so it would be an understandable mistake from a native Spanish speaker (you know, someone interested in IB). Maybe doubly so when the IATA code is PEK.

Ridiculing people for minor mistakes is a bad way to help people get used to speaking their non-native language, which is a good thing for communication for everyone.

Chinese nationals don't need Schengen visa to LHR with KL/AF/LH, but need UK visa to Europe via LHR/BA, considering most growth is generated from the Chinese side, and France, Italy, Germany, Czech Rep. are far more popular European destinations for Chinese tourists (2 million visitors to France in 2017, 492k to Czech while only 226k to UK in 2016), BA is simply not competitive in China, adding more code-share partners doesn't change a lot.
Perhaps with Brexit happening the new 'globe' Britain can relax the visa restrictions and roll out 10-year visas like US/Canada, but if it happens and UK have ten times more Chinese visitors to the level of France receive, then Globexit is probably not far away.

TSA125 wrote:

Nami wrote:

Furthermore there's the issue of Siberian overflight permissions requiring that majority of the ownership of AY is in Finnish hands.

Is BA restricted from overflying Siberia?

AFAIK, a most noteworthy case in which Russia rejected a carrier overflying Siberia involved French Aigle Azur that applied to fly CDG-PEK in 2014 that saw heightened tensions btwn Russia and the West due to the outbreak of the Ukraine Crisis
Also the Russian authorities was also threatening to impose restrictions on Western flights flying over Siberia in the teeth of the crisis

A while ago I saw someone mentioned that many secondary Chinese cities seems to prefer getting LON as their first European route and that resulted in a lot of direct service from secondary Chinese cities to LON by Chinese carrier. So it would probably be harder for BA to compete against Chinese airlines than other European airlines against Chinese carriers
A few years ago they also tried and failed CTU service

c933103 wrote:

A while ago I saw someone mentioned that many secondary Chinese cities seems to prefer getting LON as their first European route and that resulted in a lot of direct service from secondary Chinese cities to LON by Chinese carrier. So it would probably be harder for BA to compete against Chinese airlines than other European airlines against Chinese carriers
A few years ago they also tried and failed CTU service

LHR is still a far better connecting hub to the rest of Europe and even a decent alternative to the US (particularly east coast) if the price is right. And Chinese citizens don't need transit visas in the UK if they have a valid Schengen/US/Canadian visa so it would still make sense to have those flights.

The visa issue as others have said will hold BA back, in the old days Lord King would have a word with a few mates and get it sorted. We will have to wait and see how much clout IAG have with this government, not a lot I fear.

LupineChemist wrote:

c933103 wrote:

A while ago I saw someone mentioned that many secondary Chinese cities seems to prefer getting LON as their first European route and that resulted in a lot of direct service from secondary Chinese cities to LON by Chinese carrier. So it would probably be harder for BA to compete against Chinese airlines than other European airlines against Chinese carriers
A few years ago they also tried and failed CTU service

LHR is still a far better connecting hub to the rest of Europe and even a decent alternative to the US (particularly east coast) if the price is right. And Chinese citizens don't need transit visas in the UK if they have a valid Schengen/US/Canadian visa so it would still make sense to have those flights.

Geography is not on BA’s side. Germany is better positioned to attract connecting traffic to China. Going through LHR adds a couple hours. For countries like Italy it is faster to go via Dubai than London. Connecting traffic tends to be lower yielding as well than nonstop O/D and BA has to compete with a dozen airlines.

6 month visitor visa for UK from China is UK89.00 (US125)...European visa an additional 60 euros. UK nationals single trip tourist to China is UK30.00. No visa fee for HK or Macau