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PatrickZ80 wrote:On Stewart on the other hand Norwegian has a strong negotiation position, for this airport it's either Norwegian or nothing. If Norwegian leaves they don't have any income, so they're willing to do quite something to keep Norwegian there.
ScottB wrote:PatrickZ80 wrote:On Stewart on the other hand Norwegian has a strong negotiation position, for this airport it's either Norwegian or nothing. If Norwegian leaves they don't have any income, so they're willing to do quite something to keep Norwegian there.
Norwegian doesn't quite have the negotiation leverage you think in the case of SWF. The Port Authority of NY & NJ, which operates EWR, JFK, and LGA (as well as TEB), also operates SWF. The Port Authority would like to see SWF develop as an alternative to the Big 3 NYC airports to help alleviate congestion, but they're not exactly in a position of desperation.
EvanWSFO wrote:ScottB wrote:PatrickZ80 wrote:On Stewart on the other hand Norwegian has a strong negotiation position, for this airport it's either Norwegian or nothing. If Norwegian leaves they don't have any income, so they're willing to do quite something to keep Norwegian there.
Norwegian doesn't quite have the negotiation leverage you think in the case of SWF. The Port Authority of NY & NJ, which operates EWR, JFK, and LGA (as well as TEB), also operates SWF. The Port Authority would like to see SWF develop as an alternative to the Big 3 NYC airports to help alleviate congestion, but they're not exactly in a position of desperation.
The idea of SWF being NYC's 4th airport was floated around 20 years ago. It never took hold. I would like to see Norwegian in a couple of years and see if they are still flying some of these oddball routes to smaller cities. My guess is they won't.
PatrickZ80 wrote:Indeed the benefits of smaller secondary airports is that they're much cheaper than the large major airports when it comes to landing and handling costs. This is specially true in Europe where airlines like Ryanair and Wizzair fly into a lot of secondary airports and generally avoid the big expensive ones. Passengers that fly these airlines don't mind a bit of inconvenience if it saves them money.
Also small airports are more flexible when it comes to scheduling, they got availability the whole day long. On a major airport you're lucky if you can get slots at all even if they're at a time that isn't perfect. Smaller airports often aren't slot controlled and even if they are, slots are mostly widely available. You can arrive and depart at a time that suits you.
I know that for the New York area Newark isn't slot controlled but it's known to be the most expensive airport in the whole USA in terms of landing and handling costs. Airlines are in no position to negotiate about this, the airport can charge anything they want. If the airline finds it too much they can leave, there are plenty of other airlines willing to take it. On Stewart on the other hand Norwegian has a strong negotiation position, for this airport it's either Norwegian or nothing. If Norwegian leaves they don't have any income, so they're willing to do quite something to keep Norwegian there.
spinkid wrote:Anyone who lives north of NYC, such as Westchester County or Fairfield County, CT SWF is amazingly appealing in terms of traffic compared to LGA and (shudder) JFK. You will suffer on the Van Wyck every time.
A380MSN004 wrote:Ok. Candid question as I'm not from the US. Why then Norwegian didn't flew the 737s to Westchester Airport instead of Steward, as Westchester seems to be closer to NYC than Stewart?
A380MSN004 wrote:Ok. Candid question as I'm not from the US. Why then Norwegian didn't flew the 737s to Westchester Airport instead of Steward, as Westchester seems to be closer to NYC than Stewart?
usflyer msp wrote:The problem with LCC's and secondary airports in the US is that their lower airport costs are usually more than offset by the lower RASM traffic they attract...
aemoreira1981 wrote:A380MSN004 wrote:Ok. Candid question as I'm not from the US. Why then Norwegian didn't flew the 737s to Westchester Airport instead of Steward, as Westchester seems to be closer to NYC than Stewart?
1. Terrible transit access (the public transit route there has very limited hours to the point where nearby SUNY Purchase has its own shuttle service)
2. Immigration and customs facilities would have to be built.
3. Short runway with no room to expand (about 6500 feet; SWF’s main runway is 11,800 feet long and can handle an A380 and one diverted there in January).
4. Maximum of four gates can be used at any one time.
A380MSN004 wrote:aemoreira1981 wrote:A380MSN004 wrote:Ok. Candid question as I'm not from the US. Why then Norwegian didn't flew the 737s to Westchester Airport instead of Steward, as Westchester seems to be closer to NYC than Stewart?
1. Terrible transit access (the public transit route there has very limited hours to the point where nearby SUNY Purchase has its own shuttle service)
2. Immigration and customs facilities would have to be built.
3. Short runway with no room to expand (about 6500 feet; SWF’s main runway is 11,800 feet long and can handle an A380 and one diverted there in January).
4. Maximum of four gates can be used at any one time.
Thanks for feedback. As i'm European, this is very helpful and interesting for me.
Another candid question, what about ISP / Mc Arthur Airport?
It's closer to Manhattan. There's couple of jetbridges.
Why airlines sur as Aer Lingus / Norwzgian etc prefers Stewart compared to Long Island?
Also, is this Long Island well located regarding catching area?
Many thankks
aemoreira1981 wrote:A380MSN004 wrote:aemoreira1981 wrote:
1. Terrible transit access (the public transit route there has very limited hours to the point where nearby SUNY Purchase has its own shuttle service)
2. Immigration and customs facilities would have to be built.
3. Short runway with no room to expand (about 6500 feet; SWF’s main runway is 11,800 feet long and can handle an A380 and one diverted there in January).
4. Maximum of four gates can be used at any one time.
Thanks for feedback. As i'm European, this is very helpful and interesting for me.
Another candid question, what about ISP / Mc Arthur Airport?
It's closer to Manhattan. There's couple of jetbridges.
Why airlines sur as Aer Lingus / Norwzgian etc prefers Stewart compared to Long Island?
Also, is this Long Island well located regarding catching area?
Many thankks
Slight correction on my earlier post: DUB and SNN are pre-cleared there. EI has a partnership with B6 at BOS and JFK and thus uses their gates and services. As for why not ISP...runway length is likely an issue constrained by development. Stewart is a joint civil-military airport. Long Island has JFK as its catchment. Southwest drew down from ISP once it got the former ATA slots at LGA and slots from the CO/UA divestiture at EWR and moved most flights to NYC and Newark.
A380MSN004 wrote:aemoreira1981 wrote:A380MSN004 wrote:
Thanks for feedback. As i'm European, this is very helpful and interesting for me.
Another candid question, what about ISP / Mc Arthur Airport?
It's closer to Manhattan. There's couple of jetbridges.
Why airlines sur as Aer Lingus / Norwzgian etc prefers Stewart compared to Long Island?
Also, is this Long Island well located regarding catching area?
Many thankks
Slight correction on my earlier post: DUB and SNN are pre-cleared there. EI has a partnership with B6 at BOS and JFK and thus uses their gates and services. As for why not ISP...runway length is likely an issue constrained by development. Stewart is a joint civil-military airport. Long Island has JFK as its catchment. Southwest drew down from ISP once it got the former ATA slots at LGA and slots from the CO/UA divestiture at EWR and moved most flights to NYC and Newark.
Very interesting, thanks
As ISP is not operated by Port Authority but by the city of Islip, conditions must be interesting?
In terms of road connections, bus, rails. What airport has the best assets : Stewart? Westchester? Long Island?
MIflyer12 wrote:Maybe you think $3 a seat will change anybody's mind.
'The Port Authority will pay up to $3 per departing seat offered by airlines on new nonstop routes, with the total benefit not to exceed $250,000 for international routes and $150,000 for domestic routes in the first full year of nonstop service.'
http://www.panynj.gov/swf/incentive.html
Pe@rson wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:Maybe you think $3 a seat will change anybody's mind.
'The Port Authority will pay up to $3 per departing seat offered by airlines on new nonstop routes, with the total benefit not to exceed $250,000 for international routes and $150,000 for domestic routes in the first full year of nonstop service.'
http://www.panynj.gov/swf/incentive.html
That's the rack rate before additional negotiation over new routes, more traffic, international service. I bet they got a very good deal indeed, especially given how under-served SWF is and how it is keen to grow.
PatrickZ80 wrote:Who says it's a back room deal? If they're open about the discounts they're giving Norwegian and are willing to give those same discounts to other airlines, I don't see the problem. But even without any additional discount and just the regular fees Stewart remains a cheap airport, far cheaper than JFK or Newark for example. Those airports both charge much higher fees.
PatrickZ80 wrote:Who says it's a back room deal? If they're open about the discounts they're giving Norwegian and are willing to give those same discounts to other airlines, I don't see the problem. But even without any additional discount and just the regular fees Stewart remains a cheap airport, far cheaper than JFK or Newark for example. Those airports both charge much higher fees.
aemoreira1981 wrote:A380MSN004 wrote:aemoreira1981 wrote:
Slight correction on my earlier post: DUB and SNN are pre-cleared there. EI has a partnership with B6 at BOS and JFK and thus uses their gates and services. As for why not ISP...runway length is likely an issue constrained by development. Stewart is a joint civil-military airport. Long Island has JFK as its catchment. Southwest drew down from ISP once it got the former ATA slots at LGA and slots from the CO/UA divestiture at EWR and moved most flights to NYC and Newark.
Very interesting, thanks
As ISP is not operated by Port Authority but by the city of Islip, conditions must be interesting?
In terms of road connections, bus, rails. What airport has the best assets : Stewart? Westchester? Long Island?
Probably Stewart as it’s right off two interstate highways.
adamh8297 wrote:Lets add a very simple stat to this discussion.
Overall Load Factor June 2017-October 2017 for all D8 flights from PVD/SWF/BDL - 68%
A380MSN004 wrote:adamh8297 wrote:Lets add a very simple stat to this discussion.
Overall Load Factor June 2017-October 2017 for all D8 flights from PVD/SWF/BDL - 68%
That's pretty low, but it's a first year operation.
Let's compare them with 2018 later this year.
A380MSN004 wrote:aemoreira1981 wrote:A380MSN004 wrote:Ok. Candid question as I'm not from the US. Why then Norwegian didn't flew the 737s to Westchester Airport instead of Steward, as Westchester seems to be closer to NYC than Stewart?
1. Terrible transit access (the public transit route there has very limited hours to the point where nearby SUNY Purchase has its own shuttle service)
2. Immigration and customs facilities would have to be built.
3. Short runway with no room to expand (about 6500 feet; SWF’s main runway is 11,800 feet long and can handle an A380 and one diverted there in January).
4. Maximum of four gates can be used at any one time.
Thanks for feedback. As i'm European, this is very helpful and interesting for me.
Another candid question, what about ISP / Mc Arthur Airport?
It's closer to Manhattan. There's couple of jetbridges.
Why airlines sur as Aer Lingus / Norwzgian etc prefers Stewart compared to Long Island?
Also, is this Long Island well located regarding catching area?
Many thankks
adamh8297 wrote:Lets add a very simple stat to this discussion.
Overall Load Factor June 2017-October 2017 for all D8 flights from PVD/SWF/BDL - 68%
I think they can get more revenue from BOS and JFK/EWR
Also PVD has no weekend rail service AND Boston's fractured commuter rail system (Having North and South Station) doesn't help.
PatrickZ80 wrote:I don't agree, I don't think they can get more revenue from Boston or New York JFK / Newark. It doesn't match with the "passengers go where the flights are" statement.
If you're in the center of New York, you're in the catchment area of several airports. Those are of course JFK and Newark, but the catchment area of Stewart also extends into New York City due to the bus service between the airport and the city. So if you're looking for a flight all of those airports are options. It doesn't matter from what airport the flight goes as long as you're within the catchment area.
PatrickZ80 wrote:Same thing is true for Boston since the catchment area for Providence airport extends into Boston. When you're in Boston, Providence is certainly a viable option and a true competitor to Boston airport.
PatrickZ80 wrote:It might be a bit further away, but it's also much cheaper. That little bit of inconvenience translates itself into a lower fare.
FrmrKSEngr wrote:Interesting discussion. I am currently working some of these calculations on my current trip.
I am in Northern Ireland due to a family emergency. Had to buy a ticket from Central Texas to Ireland in under 24 hours, not sure of my return. Bought a one way on Kayak, for Aer Lingus, operated out of Austin by British airways connecting through LRH to DUB. While there were cheaper offerings through Kiwi and other flight packagers using Norwegian through PVD and WOW through god knows where, this was not a trip I wanted to experiment on.
My airport choices were Waco, Killeen, DFW and Aus. Waco - Free parking, $100s more expensive because it goes through DFW. Kileen - Routing with Delta - was never a good fair for this choice. I really did not look at either for this trip. DFW - More expensive flights than Austin and higher parking fees. So Austin it was. Which was also my choice for my two prior planned Irish trips.
My point is that more than fare cost goes into the calculation of where to fly from. If I am flying to an AA Destination, and will be gone for a week, Waco is many times the better choice than DFW because while I will pay more for the airfare, that can be off set by the free parking, hassle free security and avoiding metroplex traffic. How much is parking at Stewart? How much do you want to avoid city traffic?
Now I have a little more time to plan my return trip, and Kiwi is stringing together a Norwegian flight Belfast to PVD with a Frontier flight to AUS for half the price of an Aer Lingus itinerary from DUB to AUS through either JFK or ORD. I am tempted just to try it out. I also toyed wit the idea of going through KEF just to be able to say I have been to Iceland, but that would be 2 stops.
PVD757 wrote:FrmrKSEngr wrote:
Now I have a little more time to plan my return trip, and Kiwi is stringing together a Norwegian flight Belfast to PVD with a Frontier flight to AUS for half the price of an Aer Lingus itinerary from DUB to AUS through either JFK or ORD. I am tempted just to try it out. I also toyed wit the idea of going through KEF just to be able to say I have been to Iceland, but that would be 2 stops.
The connection will be super easy. The BFS flight lands at 5:20pm and the AUS flight around 9pm. You’ll be through customs and back into the gate area in no time since its one terminal. If you’re checking luggage, the Frontier desk is steps away from the security checkpoint. A few people I know who work at PVD have told me more and more passengers are making these connections so you may not be the only one foing this.
ltbewr wrote:SWF has another big subsidiary from the base for the NY Air National Guard. It is far enough away from the more immediate NYC metro airports so fewer traffic delays. There is room to grow for terminals and other facilities. If you visit the site, you can see the foundations and former US Air Base buildings there. SWF started as private GA airport in the early 1930's, then during the depression sold to the local town then taken over by the US Army to train cadets at West Point, about 15 miles away, in flying, then an Air Force Base until the 1970's and a NY ANG base since then.
SWF is good for those low cost carriers due to low fees (for now), few air traffic delays and good ground access (2 interstate highways, I-84 and NY Thruway).
FrmrKSEngr wrote:Now I have a little more time to plan my return trip, and Kiwi is stringing together a Norwegian flight Belfast to PVD with a Frontier flight to AUS for half the price of an Aer Lingus itinerary from DUB to AUS through either JFK or ORD. I am tempted just to try it out. I also toyed wit the idea of going through KEF just to be able to say I have been to Iceland, but that would be 2 stops.
PatrickZ80 wrote:FrmrKSEngr wrote:Now I have a little more time to plan my return trip, and Kiwi is stringing together a Norwegian flight Belfast to PVD with a Frontier flight to AUS for half the price of an Aer Lingus itinerary from DUB to AUS through either JFK or ORD. I am tempted just to try it out. I also toyed wit the idea of going through KEF just to be able to say I have been to Iceland, but that would be 2 stops.
May I suggest you first check the price of both flights directly at the airlines and add them up and then compare that to what Kiwi charges for it. I bet it's cheaper to book directly at the airlines, this can easily save you a nice amount of money.
adamh8297 wrote:Lets add a very simple stat to this discussion.
Overall Load Factor June 2017-October 2017 for all D8 flights from PVD/SWF/BDL - 68%
I think they can get more revenue from BOS and JFK/EWR
Also PVD has no weekend rail service AND Boston's fractured commuter rail system (Having North and South Station) doesn't help.
A380MSN004 wrote:adamh8297 wrote:Lets add a very simple stat to this discussion.
Overall Load Factor June 2017-October 2017 for all D8 flights from PVD/SWF/BDL - 68%
I think they can get more revenue from BOS and JFK/EWR
Also PVD has no weekend rail service AND Boston's fractured commuter rail system (Having North and South Station) doesn't help.
More stats for those interested.
Load factors :
- 2017 SWF DUB 83%
- 2017 SWF EDI 76%
- 2017 SWF BFS 66%
- 2017 PVD DUB 68%
- 2017 PVD EDI 60%
- 2017 PVD BFS 46%
lesfalls wrote:A380MSN004 wrote:adamh8297 wrote:Lets add a very simple stat to this discussion.
Overall Load Factor June 2017-October 2017 for all D8 flights from PVD/SWF/BDL - 68%
I think they can get more revenue from BOS and JFK/EWR
Also PVD has no weekend rail service AND Boston's fractured commuter rail system (Having North and South Station) doesn't help.
More stats for those interested.
Load factors :
- 2017 SWF DUB 83%
- 2017 SWF EDI 76%
- 2017 SWF BFS 66%
- 2017 PVD DUB 68%
- 2017 PVD EDI 60%
- 2017 PVD BFS 46%
What about SWF-BGO and SWF-SNN?
RL757PVD wrote:In general,for this type of service SWF will likely do better because they are "New York", and despite what you read in the BOS threads, Boston is not a large city with a metro area 1/5 the size of New York.
The problem and the challenge is that PVD's real advantage comes when in 5 years BOS terminal E costs will be 72% higher than they are now. Right now some can make the cost up in fare, but for the smaller international carriers, that squeeze is coming, we just have to wait it out.
FGITD wrote:RL757PVD wrote:In general,for this type of service SWF will likely do better because they are "New York", and despite what you read in the BOS threads, Boston is not a large city with a metro area 1/5 the size of New York.
The problem and the challenge is that PVD's real advantage comes when in 5 years BOS terminal E costs will be 72% higher than they are now. Right now some can make the cost up in fare, but for the smaller international carriers, that squeeze is coming, we just have to wait it out.
I don't think anyone believes BOS is at all comparable to New York City or major cities like that.
Also, where does the 72% come from exactly? I've got no doubt the costs will go up, as you can't build a massive expansion without some increase. But what's the source?
RL757PVD wrote:
I don't think anyone believes BOS is at all comparable to New York City or major cities like that.
Also, where does the 72% come from exactly? I've got no doubt the costs will go up, as you can't build a massive expansion without some increase. But what's the source?