According to the Sydney Morning Herald, Mr. Alan Joyce, has floated the idea that under the project sunrise, the carrier might create a new travel class in the cargo hold area called " Cargo class". The cargo class would include train-style berth.
As the airline is not fully utilising the cargo hold, the airline is also studying the idea of converting the cargo area to an exercising area for passengets to use.
The idea was suggested by AJ as the carrier is still looking at the A350-900 and B777X for future expansion.
source: http://www.airlive.net/qantas-ceo-float ... rgo-class/
To me, the idea seems interesting.
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Qantas proposes amenities in the cargo hold for ultra long flights
Last edited by qf789 on Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: changed title for clarity
Reason: changed title for clarity
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- MalevTU134
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
How about emergency exits?
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
MalevTU134 wrote:How about emergency exits?
Does the cargo door count?
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- MalevTU134
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
bgm wrote:MalevTU134 wrote:How about emergency exits?
Does the cargo door count?
Not unless it's an early model DC10, in which case it was automatic...kinda...
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- ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Exits and other safety stuff is where such ideas could come unstuck. I would imagine if they went down that route it would have to be hand in hand with regulators to look at tweaking regulations where it makes sense.
The article is pretty short and slim on details. It's largely stuff heard from a recording. And the cargo area stuff is only if Boeing and Airbus can't do the ULH stuff with a full passenger and cargo load which Qantas is pushing for. An area to properly stretch out or run back and forward would be quite nice to have. Or just some bunks to catch a quick nap in. You cold even use it as sort of a child area for when the bubs get noisy. Less stress for the parents terrified on pissing everyone off with a bub that just won't settle.
The article is pretty short and slim on details. It's largely stuff heard from a recording. And the cargo area stuff is only if Boeing and Airbus can't do the ULH stuff with a full passenger and cargo load which Qantas is pushing for. An area to properly stretch out or run back and forward would be quite nice to have. Or just some bunks to catch a quick nap in. You cold even use it as sort of a child area for when the bubs get noisy. Less stress for the parents terrified on pissing everyone off with a bub that just won't settle.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Hope there'll be a shower if they have an exercise room. Last thing I'd want is to have a large, sweaty, smelly man come sit next to me in an economy seat.
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- MalevTU134
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
ual763 wrote:Hope there'll be a shower if they have an exercise room. Last thing I'd want is to have a large, sweaty, smelly man come sit next to me in an economy seat.
Heeeyy...it's called cargo class for something... You expect to get a seat???
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Didn't some airlines have lounges in the cargo area of their L1011s back in the 70s / early 80s? So technically putting passengers down there is not unprecedented although a lounge is not an assigned seat, of course. Honestly though, if they give me additional space for a decent price, I'll gladly fly downstairs.
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- MalevTU134
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
764 wrote:Didn't some airlines have lounges in the cargo area of their L1011s back in the 70s / early 80s? So technically putting passengers down there is not unprecedented although a lounge is not an assigned seat, of course. Honestly though, if they give me additional space for a decent price, I'll gladly fly downstairs.
LH still has "lounges" downstairs on their A346s.
https://goo.gl/images/2ZibAL
Last edited by MalevTU134 on Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
I would much prefer a train style berth that I could sleep in versus an economy seat for long haul, honestly.
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- WorldFlier
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
xwb777 wrote:According to the Sydney Morning Herald, Mr. Alan Joyce, has floated the idea that under the project sunrise, the carrier might create a new travel class in the cargo hold area called " Cargo class". The cargo class would include train-style berth.
As the airline is not fully utilising the cargo hold, the airline is also studying the idea of converting the cargo area to an exercising area for passengets to use.
The idea was suggested by AJ as the carrier is still looking at the A350-900 and B777X for future expansion.
source: http://www.airlive.net/qantas-ceo-float ... rgo-class/
To me, the idea seems interesting.
I'd go for it. No windows on current airliners, but making a berth class below (with windows) on future models is interesting!
If Belly Cargo isn't the airline's thing, this could generate a lot of revenue!
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
This idea will go nowhere, just as Boeing's idea of the "Skyloft" on the 747-8 where Economy Class passengers could purchase a small "berth" in the unused crown area of the aft fuselage to relax and sleep in, using their main deck seat primarily for eating and take-out / landing.
Last edited by Stitch on Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Confuscius
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
MalevTU134 wrote:Heeeyy...it's called cargo class for something... You expect to get a seat???
More like Steerage class.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Whew!! This is suites for the big spenders...For a minute there I thought he was talking about sub-economy -- treat people like boxes class !!
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Good to see that the Australian media is as sensationalist as their American and British cousins. Joyce was suggesting enhancing the passenger experience by providing additional space to stretch or sleep below the main deck. "Cargo Class" obviously infers the opposite. As other have said, I doubt that this will come to anything. But at least it provides "newspapers" with good headlines.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Thomas Cook has toilets downstairs on some of their A330's. Would it make more sense to put more toilets downstairs, allowing for some for disabled access, and some more galley space downstairs, thus creating more space on the main deck for seating?
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- MalevTU134
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
caaardiff wrote:Thomas Cook has toilets downstairs on some of their A330's. Would it make more sense to put more toilets downstairs, allowing for some for disabled access, and some more galley space downstairs, thus creating more space on the main deck for seating?
Unless I'm mistaken, (some versions of) the DC10 and the IL86 had downstairs galleys (the IL86 even had hand luggage storage there....was really cool...miss that plane).
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
caaardiff wrote:Thomas Cook has toilets downstairs on some of their A330's. Would it make more sense to put more toilets downstairs, allowing for some for disabled access, and some more galley space downstairs, thus creating more space on the main deck for seating?
Neither the A350-900ULR nor the 777-8 would be able to dedicate their entire cabin to seating considering both will be operating with payload restrictions in order to have enough TOW available to tank the necessary fuel for the mission.
As I noted in the original thread, if this service actually launches, I would not be surprised if it does so on a ~175 seat 787-9 configured solely with Business Class and Premium Economy Class seating (say 50/125).
Last edited by Stitch on Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Airbus and Boeing alike have floated some interesting ideas that could be used to load a modular steerage lounge area.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... rce=images
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... rce=images
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
The Onion.
We all laughed in 2009, but so ahead of its time.
https://www.theonion.com/united-airline ... 1819571115
We all laughed in 2009, but so ahead of its time.
https://www.theonion.com/united-airline ... 1819571115
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
caaardiff wrote:Thomas Cook has toilets downstairs on some of their A330's. Would it make more sense to put more toilets downstairs, allowing for some for disabled access, and some more galley space downstairs, thus creating more space on the main deck for seating?
This is what probably makes the most sense and is most realistic. Move as much as possible below deck and make the entire Economy section into Premium Economy.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
stlgph wrote:The Onion. We all laughed in 2009, but so ahead of its time.
https://www.theonion.com/united-airline ... 1819571115
And then there was the "standing seat" concept that Airbus presented in 2003, their 2014 "saddle seat" concept and their 2015 concept to stack seats in a two-story configuration. And we also have Boeing and Ryanair's "standing room only" seating concept.
Last edited by Stitch on Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- WassbiKhalifa
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
L-1011's had a downstairs galley with two elevators to move the carts up and down. It was pretty cool.
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lightsaber
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
texl1649 wrote:Airbus and Boeing alike have floated some interesting ideas that could be used to load a modular steerage lounge area.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... rce=images
Yes. The issue is low allowed capacity due to evacuation rules.
A lounge, gym, showers, or a few cabins with beds would work.
But we are talking under 19 people, not a Y cabin. More a set of clipper births.
There is discussion of crew rest like areas to sell beds, but evacuation rules are strict.
Lightsaber
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- JamesCousins
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
People are dismissing these ideas almost instantly, and I see why, however, they can't be utilizing cargo space on these 787s that well. With freight being pretty low margin I can imagine the refueling stop is far more cost effective on most freight options.
Whilst I can't see a gym and showers appearing, I don't at all write off the idea of a lounge area or some sleeping bunks, would make ULH attractive for all classes if executed properly.
Whilst I can't see a gym and showers appearing, I don't at all write off the idea of a lounge area or some sleeping bunks, would make ULH attractive for all classes if executed properly.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
lightsaber wrote:texl1649 wrote:Airbus and Boeing alike have floated some interesting ideas that could be used to load a modular steerage lounge area.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... rce=images
Yes. The issue is low allowed capacity due to evacuation rules.
A lounge, gym, showers, or a few cabins with beds would work.
But we are talking under 19 people, not a Y cabin. More a set of clipper births.
There is discussion of crew rest like areas to sell beds, but evacuation rules are strict.
Lightsaber
What are the requirements for evacuation - should pax be in evacuation-ready area for entire flight, or just for takeoff and landing?
In later case, I can envision comfortable but non-certified spaces in the hold while passengers move to some low end seat (e.g. middle seat in E-) for take-off and landing. If the flight is more than 3-4 hours that can make sense...
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- aviatorcraig
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
ual763 wrote:Hope there'll be a shower if they have an exercise room. Last thing I'd want is to have a large, sweaty, smelly man come sit next to me in an economy seat.
...or woman
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Wasn't there a proposal floated to use crown space in some of the larger frames for bunks a few year's back? This would have to be incorporated into the design from the outset, but it is clearly an area that is flying empty (unlike the cargo hold which might be used for revenue, depending...)
The idea had problems. Not only were there issues related to access and emergency exits but also issues related to the strength of the ceiling structure (would the cargo hold floor stand up to significant passenger foot traffic in flight without structural mods?)
The idea had problems. Not only were there issues related to access and emergency exits but also issues related to the strength of the ceiling structure (would the cargo hold floor stand up to significant passenger foot traffic in flight without structural mods?)
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Lightsaber wrote:But we are talking under 19 people, not a Y cabin.
Are you referring to a specific regulation on underfloor maximums?
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
YYZYYT wrote:Wasn't there a proposal floated to use crown space in some of the larger frames for bunks a few year's back?
Boeing offered it on the 747-8 in both commercial and VIP models, however only one VIP operator ordered them.
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- AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
God help us if Michael O'Leary finds out Qantas is considering something called "Cargo Class" and doesn't bother doing any research on it. 
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Cool idea. Idk if the authorities will agree, but still.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
IMO, pax use of cargo space, esp for bunk beds on ULH routes, is one of the few unexplored opportunities left to differentiate hard product. What's left beyond F, J, and Y+? Inversion seats? 
No... below deck: bunk beds for "Y+", jr. suites for "J+", and full suites for "F+". Very attractive during 14 to 17 hour flight times! The bunk beds could even be "hot bunks"... rented for defined periods, e.g., three, 5-hour renters on a 17 hour flight. A nice loyalty program incentive. The higher the FF status, the longer the "upgrade bunk time".
No... below deck: bunk beds for "Y+", jr. suites for "J+", and full suites for "F+". Very attractive during 14 to 17 hour flight times! The bunk beds could even be "hot bunks"... rented for defined periods, e.g., three, 5-hour renters on a 17 hour flight. A nice loyalty program incentive. The higher the FF status, the longer the "upgrade bunk time".
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Hah.....a novel twist to the term "cattle class"..... 
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- Planesmart
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Assigned seating would trigger the same regulations that make it so costly for OEM's to now offer convertible aircraft. Wouldn't be able to secure ICAO compliant insurance unless the rules were changed.
Last edited by Planesmart on Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Reminds me a bit of the exuberant passenger amenities such as bowling alleys, spas and whatnot that were envisioned in the early days of the A380 airline plans. But of course, nothing of that sort materialised in the end.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
I like the idea. You can keep all the idiots who insist on closing window shades down there 
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
It exits are the problem could they retrofit the design for the lower door on AF1? That door has an airstair and everything. MOL had better not think of that. If several doors of that design would satisfy exit requirements, how many seats across could go in the hold of a 777?
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Doesn't the issue regarding evacuation have to do with take off and landing? If the area isn't occupied at those times then it would be ok? So...bunks during flight, or maybe lavs make the most sense to free up space above, as on some Airbus planes.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
WassbiKhalifa wrote:L-1011's had a downstairs galley with two elevators to move the carts up and down. It was pretty cool.
PSA L-1011s had a lounge forward of the galley, accessible from interior stairs and with a door+airstairs for exterior access.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
MalevTU134 wrote:764 wrote:Didn't some airlines have lounges in the cargo area of their L1011s back in the 70s / early 80s? So technically putting passengers down there is not unprecedented although a lounge is not an assigned seat, of course. Honestly though, if they give me additional space for a decent price, I'll gladly fly downstairs.
LH still has "lounges" downstairs on their A346s.
https://goo.gl/images/2ZibAL
You mean toilets? lol
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- Hornberger
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
cschleic wrote:Doesn't the issue regarding evacuation have to do with take off and landing? If the area isn't occupied at those times then it would be ok? So...bunks during flight, or maybe lavs make the most sense to free up space above, as on some Airbus planes.
Not sure of the exact dimensions of the 777-X cargo hold, but at a rough guess you could fit 100, 0.8m x 0.6m X 2.0m sleeping pods taking up approx 40% of the cargo hold.
These would be sold as add-ons to W and Y seats. All pax would be in the main cabin for take-off and landing, only allowed below deck when the captain think it's safe.
If the technical issues could be overcome, I could see this as being something that is very popular with both airlines and the passengers.
Airline's can profitably utilities cargo space that would otherwise be empty on ULH flights, and passenger can get a lie flat bed at lower cost than a J seat. The problem for the airlines is that it might be too popular with passenger, why pay for J or W seat when you can get a Y seat + plus a bed?
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!
They don't get see windows in flight at all. You won't able to look out window. Stupid designed! NO!!!!!
Q
They don't get see windows in flight at all. You won't able to look out window. Stupid designed! NO!!!!!
Q
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Is this concept not already there in the form of crew rest? Just above the cabin rather than below it. Relocate the galley space at the back of the aircraft downstairs and 2 levels of bunks can be created, maybe even 3 levels if the height is right. Split then into individual pods rather than a whole space like a crew rest. The back galley on a 787 is quite a big space. Only concern may be the noise from the APU!
For Qantas you can reserve (pay?) for the pod for a certain amount of time. Get say max 4-5 hours sleep. Crew do a quick bedding change and next person goes in. On a 17+ hour flight max 3 per pod x however many pods will fit.
If it's cheaper than upgrading and give crammed in Y pax the chance to get a few hours sleep, could be a good seller.
For Qantas you can reserve (pay?) for the pod for a certain amount of time. Get say max 4-5 hours sleep. Crew do a quick bedding change and next person goes in. On a 17+ hour flight max 3 per pod x however many pods will fit.
If it's cheaper than upgrading and give crammed in Y pax the chance to get a few hours sleep, could be a good seller.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Q wrote:NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!
They don't get see windows in flight at all. You won't able to look out window. Stupid designed! NO!!!!!
Q
And that's where the window down fools will go and leave the cabin open for observers an avigeeks.
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- KrustyTheKlown
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Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
MODS: could you change the title of this thread?
Qantas is not proposing selling seats in the cargo hold, a more accurate title would be "Qantas proposes amenities in the cargo hold for ultra long flights".
Qantas is not proposing selling seats in the cargo hold, a more accurate title would be "Qantas proposes amenities in the cargo hold for ultra long flights".
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
Oh how cute, someone has learned from MOL how to get free publicity.
Well done.
Too bad journalists always fall for this.
Well done.
Too bad journalists always fall for this.
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
MalevTU134 wrote:bgm wrote:MalevTU134 wrote:How about emergency exits?
Does the cargo door count?
Not unless it's an early model DC10, in which case it was automatic...kinda...
They could mount axes to the wall!
Re: Alan Joyce floats the idea of "Cargo class"
I await the first story of a FA having to rouse a passenger deep in sleep to get them to go sit upstairs... That'll be fun.
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