Air Asia Japan considers US West Coast service; 787s

LAXintl · Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:26 pm

AirAsia Group CEO Tony Fernandes confirmed that he is considering launching flights from Nagoya's Chubu Airport to Honolulu and the US West Coast, should he secure the necessary aircraft.

The Group is mulling the use of potential B787s out of Japan, as the approximate 10 hour routes to Europe and the US fit within the long-haul unit's business model.

No timetable on the launch or possible aircraft acquisitions were disclosed.

AirAsia is mulling flights to Hawaii and the US West Coast from Japan
http://newsroom.aviator.aero/airasia-is ... rom-japan/

=

Not much info, but suppose its sourced from a Japanese media outlet/newspaper.

janders · Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:32 pm

Cool. Nagoya has been without a West Coast flight since UA dropped SFO.

Also me thinks there is indeed something to these 787 rumors.

LAXintl · Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:48 pm

Agreed. The 787 talk is popping up in ever more locations.

Also NGO longhaul could be a good springboard for AirAsia as they would have market largely to themselves something not the case at KIX or Tokyo.

ap305 · Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:49 pm

http://www.nst.com.my/business/2018/03/ ... ing-planes

Both Fernandes and the Air Asia X boss are firmly denying the story of buying 787s. Me thinks some people in the media are getting over excited .

ikolkyo · Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:49 pm

I'm expecting an Air Asia Group 787 order at some point in the near future, too much talk about the aircraft and this group

mercure1 · Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:55 pm

In this story dated March 20, 2018 Fernandes says they are meeting with both Airbus and Boeing

The expansion plan in Japan includes long-haul routes between Japan and Europe, as well as Japan and the U.S. AirAsia is in talks with both Airbus and Boeing to buy more wide-body, long-range jets. Fernandes said he plans to make a purchase decision in the "next couple of months."
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/AC/Air ... ses?page=2

ap305 · Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:58 pm

The claim from that story is itself based on a story from March 6th

flee · Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:05 pm

Nothing new here.... All long haul routes will be operated by Airasia X. Perhaps an Airasia X Japan might be set up later on, if the Japanese govt. approves. What is more interesting is that Airasia are partnering with the city of Nagoya to promote it as a destination. Nagoya airport will also have a new LCC terminal.

flee · Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:28 pm

AAX's potential routes to US West Coast, Benyamin said it would only happen after the group's delivery of newer aircraft Airbus A330neo next year.

Source: http://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/a ... -half-2018

So any new US West Coast routes will have to wait for the delivery of the A330neo..... Not so soon!

This report is from a press conference at an event in Kuala Lumpur on 23 March 2018. This can be regarded as the latest status on the A330neo order - they are not cancelling it yet....

AirbusA322 · Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:18 pm

He is baiting the media to drum up interest in his new venture in Japan. His got a lot of work to make it work, so free publicity is certainly a box to be ticket on his list.

He just wants people talking and writing about his companies for free.

He did the same at the Avalon launch the other month. Claiming he was going to offer direct flights to India and Thailand from Melbourne next year. Not going to happen. If the media had half a brain they would have dug deeper and asked real questions like why Tony is cutting back Australian flights by 20/30% let alone expanding them!

Remember those coin operated toilets folks? Marketing Genious!

Momo1435 · Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:54 pm

These are the Japanese sources for the Aviator article. It's an Aviation Wire exclusive interview with Tony Fernandez taken on March 21.

The article on the possible 787 order.
http://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/144037

And the article concerning the Nagoya operations.
http://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/144054

DaufuskieGuy · Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:05 pm

janders wrote:
Cool. Nagoya has been without a West Coast flight since UA dropped SFO.

Also me thinks there is indeed something to these 787 rumors.

am I the only one mystified that neither ANA or UA can fill a 788 SFO NGO?

lightsaber · Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:21 pm

ap305 wrote:
http://www.nst.com.my/business/2018/03/343325/airasia-buy-boeing-planes

Both Fernandes and the Air Asia X boss are firmly denying the story of buying 787s. Me thinks some people in the media are getting over excited .

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Hamlet.

If negotiations aren't ongoing, fire the AirAsia BoD and top executives. To achieve the lowest costs, one must negotiate.

Lightsaber

janders · Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:33 pm

I think its pretty clear talks are taking place with Boeing, be it merely to apply pressure on Airbus, or AirAsia is truly open to acquiring Boeing frames as well, time will tell.

LAXintl · Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:29 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:

am I the only one mystified that neither ANA or UA can fill a 788 SFO NGO?

Filing the plane is not the issue, its the quality of the revenue.
UA had a few decent corporate accounts including Toyota on the route, but did not meet financial results.

Look at KIX, UA can't even sustain running that daily during winters on the 788.

NH results be even worse as its aircraft are lower density, more premium heavy, not what is needed at NGO.

A LCC like AirAsia imo would be much better at serving the market ultimately.

ap305 · Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:50 pm

lightsaber wrote:
ap305 wrote:
http://www.nst.com.my/business/2018/03/343325/airasia-buy-boeing-planes

Both Fernandes and the Air Asia X boss are firmly denying the story of buying 787s. Me thinks some people in the media are getting over excited .

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Hamlet.

If negotiations aren't ongoing, fire the AirAsia BoD and top executives. To achieve the lowest costs, one must negotiate.

Lightsaber

Well, based on that logic a lot of airlines should indeed sack their management

.... Fernandes went to great lengths last month to explain that the a330neo was performing better than expected and that he is sticking with the bird. Will he order the Boeings for further expansion? Perhaps.

PlanesNTrains · Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:06 pm

ap305 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
ap305 wrote:
http://www.nst.com.my/business/2018/03/343325/airasia-buy-boeing-planes

Both Fernandes and the Air Asia X boss are firmly denying the story of buying 787s. Me thinks some people in the media are getting over excited .

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Hamlet.

If negotiations aren't ongoing, fire the AirAsia BoD and top executives. To achieve the lowest costs, one must negotiate.

Lightsaber

Well, based on that logic a lot of airlines should indeed sack their management .... Fernandes went to great lengths last month to explain that the a330neo was performing better than expected and that he is sticking with the bird. Will he order the Boeings for further expansion? Perhaps.

Frankly, we’ve heard so much double-speak from CEO’s and PR depts that you have to wonder if they’re being honest, spinning the truth, or negotiating through the press.

lightsaber · Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:17 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
ap305 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Hamlet.

If negotiations aren't ongoing, fire the AirAsia BoD and top executives. To achieve the lowest costs, one must negotiate.

Lightsaber

Well, based on that logic a lot of airlines should indeed sack their management .... Fernandes went to great lengths last month to explain that the a330neo was performing better than expected and that he is sticking with the bird. Will he order the Boeings for further expansion? Perhaps.

Frankly, we’ve heard so much double-speak from CEO’s and PR depts that you have to wonder if they’re being honest, spinning the truth, or negotiating through the press.

Sir Richard and MOL started a successful trend of negotiations in the press. It works because it wakes up one or both sales teams.

But here is the catch, Boeing has so cut the production costs of the 787 that they are making lower price orders now. So of course AirAsia will consider. Otherwise, dismiss the BoD.

When new information becomes available, I change my opinion.

In this case, it is an incredibly valuable order to pursue. If Airbus doesn't offer better terms, Boeing should be able to win more orders.

Lightsaber

LAX772LR · Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:26 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
am I the only one mystified that neither ANA or UA can fill a 788 SFO NGO?

It's not (nor is it usually ever) a question of whether the aircraft can be filled...

...it's a question of whether the aircraft can be (1) filled while generating significant yield, and (2) if that yield is sufficient to overcome the opportunity cost of another route instead.

Could JL/NH fill a 787 from Nagoya to California or elsewhere?
Of course they could.

But would it make more money, than simply sending that plane on the trillionth destination from Tokyo instead?
They don't think so, else they'd be doing it.

DaufuskieGuy · Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:43 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
am I the only one mystified that neither ANA or UA can fill a 788 SFO NGO?

It's not (nor is it usually ever) a question of whether the aircraft can be filled...

...it's a question of whether the aircraft can be (1) filled while generating significant yield, and (2) if that yield is sufficient to overcome the opportunity cost of another route instead.

Could JL/NH fill a 787 from Nagoya to California or elsewhere?
Of course they could.

But would it make more money, than simply sending that plane on the trillionth destination from Tokyo instead?
They don't think so, else they'd be doing it.

yes I understand opp cost and yield. While the 787 has created new routes it has not in Japan, it seems that transpac traffic is over concentrated in Tokyo and a country of its size and wealth should be able to generate profitable F and C customers from several other metros to LAX or SFO.

EvanWSFO · Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:50 pm

Not in the U.S., but AC rouge couldn't make NGO work from Vancouver.

YVRing · Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:35 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
Not in the U.S., but AC rouge couldn't make NGO work from Vancouver.

Yea, this should be pretty telling.

eamondzhang · Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:19 am

YVRing wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Not in the U.S., but AC rouge couldn't make NGO work from Vancouver.

Yea, this should be pretty telling.

Especially since AC rouge has a low capital cost (of acquiring old paid-for 767s), running on a high density plane, flying into a hub where virtually all major cities in the USA/Canada can be connected (via both AC mainline and rouge) and IIRC flying at 3x weekly.

Michael

LAX772LR · Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:33 am

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
While the 787 has created new routes it has not in Japan

"That's not even remotely true."

Signed,
~SAN, BOS, and a ton of resumed-previously-cancelled services.

That said, one could quite reasonably question whether:

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
yes I understand opp cost and yield.

...when you continue to make statements like:

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
a country of its size and wealth should be able to generate profitable F and C customers from several other metros to LAX or SFO.

tierpin · Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:44 am

Agreed the talks with Boeing are likely to put pressure on Airbus.

Here is the CEO of X unit in Seattle recently with a B787-10. https://www.instagram.com/p/BgCPCtOHPVU ... aminismail

spinkid · Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:42 am

Air Asia X or Air Asia Japan X could stimulate a city like Nagoya with their product and pricing on both ends of the Pacific. Lots of people would love to fly to Japan from other U.S cities without having to make a stopover elsewhere. It is already a long flight to begin with and if you don't time your connection correctly you end up adding several hours on to your destination.

WPvsMW · Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:53 am

One of the problems with NGO is that it lacks JR service. It only has a rinky-dink regional train, Meitetsu (with no real express trains, just fewer stops in a commuter train), and the transfer from JR Nagoya to Meitetsu Nagoya involves (gasp) going outside to an archaic station and archaic train (compared to JR Nagoya and JR's Green Car). Add luggage to the equation ... and nihonjin avoid Nagoya, even though NGO probably has the best terminal in Japan (ignoring no JR rail service). Folks from Chubu actually go to KIX or TYO for international travel. If there were a JR express train from Kyoto, like the Haruka from Kyoto-eki to KIX, NGO's catchment would include Kyoto, esp. if elapsed time to NGO was less than than to KIX. What does the preceding mean? That NGO is perfect for a TPAC LCC hub, because the "crab people" (as nihonjin called backpackers, since they go through subway wickets sideways) and other budget travelers don't mind inconvenience if the price is right.

flee · Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:18 am

spinkid wrote:
Air Asia X or Air Asia Japan X could stimulate a city like Nagoya with their product and pricing on both ends of the Pacific. Lots of people would love to fly to Japan from other U.S cities without having to make a stopover elsewhere. It is already a long flight to begin with and if you don't time your connection correctly you end up adding several hours on to your destination.

I think that is the whole point of them signing a co-operation agreement with the city of Nagoya. It is a case of the airline bringing in traffic to the region and the city reciprocates by providing the airport and other associated infrastructure for them at low cost. A win-win partnership.

flee · Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:20 am

ap305 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
ap305 wrote:
http://www.nst.com.my/business/2018/03/343325/airasia-buy-boeing-planes

Both Fernandes and the Air Asia X boss are firmly denying the story of buying 787s. Me thinks some people in the media are getting over excited .

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Hamlet.

If negotiations aren't ongoing, fire the AirAsia BoD and top executives. To achieve the lowest costs, one must negotiate.

Lightsaber

Well, based on that logic a lot of airlines should indeed sack their management .... Fernandes went to great lengths last month to explain that the a330neo was performing better than expected and that he is sticking with the bird. Will he order the Boeings for further expansion? Perhaps.

It would be hard to sack Fernandes and senior management - most of them are also substantial shareholders in the company!

zakuivcustom · Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:38 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
One of the problems with NGO is that it lacks JR service. It only has a rinky-dink regional train, Meitetsu (with no real express trains, just fewer stops in a commuter train), and the transfer from JR Nagoya to Meitetsu Nagoya involves (gasp) going outside to an archaic station and archaic train (compared to JR Nagoya and JR's Green Car). Add luggage to the equation ... and nihonjin avoid Nagoya, even though NGO probably has the best terminal in Japan (ignoring no JR rail service). Folks from Chubu actually go to KIX or TYO for international travel. If there were a JR express train from Kyoto, like the Haruka from Kyoto-eki to KIX, NGO's catchment would include Kyoto, esp. if elapsed time to NGO was less than than to KIX. What does the preceding mean? That NGO is perfect for a TPAC LCC hub, because the "crab people" (as nihonjin called backpackers, since they go through subway wickets sideways) and other budget travelers don't mind inconvenience if the price is right.

Umm...you ever used uSky? That's as good as Train access can get. And unless you are on JR Chuo Line it is pointless to transfer to JR within Nagoya anyway (Gifu? Meitetsu go up there also, albeit little bit slower. Toyohashi? Meitetsu goes thay way also).

And quite frankly, unless JR extend the Shinkansen from Nagoya station (which is not going to happen), you still have to change from Shinkansen to some train at Nagoya-eki.

NGO is still somewhat far from the city, which is why it is not patronized nearly as much. Nagoya itself is also not much of a tourist destination either ( It is a good gateway to the Japanese Alps, but even that advantage is smaller when you can go theother way from Tokyo up to Toyama on Shinkansen, then back south across the Alps).

Last note? It is only 1.5 hr from Tokyo to Nagoya on Shinkansen. That is really not much for somebody that has already traveled 12 hrs on a plane anyway.

WPvsMW · Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:03 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
And quite frankly, unless JR extend the Shinkansen from Nagoya station (which is not going to happen), you still have to change from Shinkansen to some train at Nagoya-eki.

Shinkansen to NGO is overkill. There's no Shinkansen to NRT, HND, or KIX. I've used Meitetsu's uSky many times... it's closer to a commuter train than Haruka or NEX. My premise is that the best boost for NGO growth (and for JR Chubu) would be JR Haruka service Kyoto-eki - Nagoya-eki - NGO. No norikai at Nagoya-eki.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Last note? It is only 1.5 hr from Tokyo to Nagoya on Shinkansen. That is really not much for somebody that has already traveled 12 hrs on a plane anyway.

100% agreement.

zakuivcustom · Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:05 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
And quite frankly, unless JR extend the Shinkansen from Nagoya station (which is not going to happen), you still have to change from Shinkansen to some train at Nagoya-eki.

Shinkansen to NGO is overkill. There's no Shinkansen to NRT, HND, or KIX. I've used Meitetsu's uSky many times... it's closer to a commuter train than Haruka or NEX. My premise is that the best boost for NGO growth (and for JR Chubu) would be JR Haruka service Kyoto-eki - Nagoya-eki - NGO. No norikai at Nagoya-eki.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Last note? It is only 1.5 hr from Tokyo to Nagoya on Shinkansen. That is really not much for somebody that has already traveled 12 hrs on a plane anyway.

100% agreement.

uSky is not THAT bad (It's definitely better than commuter trains. Now, if you want to go cheap and used Meitetsu's Tokkyu and used the regular car, then yes, that's a commuter train).

As for JR - you're not going see JR Central operating trains all the way to Kyoto from NGO even if they ever build a line to Centrair (or more likely, extend Taketoyo Line south). Especially when 99% of the people going to Kyoto via Centrair would just norikae at Nagoya-eki to Shinkansen anyway.

Ultimately - the long-haul travel demand is just not really there. Especially when you considered KIX is not doing all that better when it comes to long-haul flights either.

lightsaber · Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:27 pm

flee wrote:
ap305 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Hamlet.

If negotiations aren't ongoing, fire the AirAsia BoD and top executives. To achieve the lowest costs, one must negotiate.

Lightsaber

Well, based on that logic a lot of airlines should indeed sack their management .... Fernandes went to great lengths last month to explain that the a330neo was performing better than expected and that he is sticking with the bird. Will he order the Boeings for further expansion? Perhaps.

It would be hard to sack Fernandes and senior management - most of them are also substantial shareholders in the company!

Good point.

Except Steve Wynn was sacked. The bond deals required him to not be fired!

Either way, if Boeing can produce a plane for what I'm hearing, they can sell to AirAsia below Airbus cost at normal industrial 20% profit out the door plus service profits.

Every order will be in play.

Lightsaber

PlanesNTrains · Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
flee wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Well, based on that logic a lot of airlines should indeed sack their management .... Fernandes went to great lengths last month to explain that the a330neo was performing better than expected and that he is sticking with the bird. Will he order the Boeings for further expansion? Perhaps.

It would be hard to sack Fernandes and senior management - most of them are also substantial shareholders in the company!

Good point.

Except Steve Wynn was sacked. The bond deals required him to not be fired!

Either way, if Boeing can produce a plane for what I'm hearing, they can sell to AirAsia below Airbus cost at normal industrial 20% profit out the door plus service profits.

Every order will be in play.

Lightsaber

Well, I would also imagine that option pricing is in play as well, inasmuch as they can just let options expire and negotiate a new deal anyhow. I’m sure Boeing [or Airbus] would ultimately prefer to avoid a fresh RFP if they can just adjust their option terms instead.

c933103 · Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:36 am

http://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/144054
It seems like NGO-HNL will happens in near future while NGO-West Coast will have to wait for receiving suitable aircrafts.
But first they would have to relaunch KUL-NGO first which is expected to take place later this year

DaufuskieGuy · Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:40 am

LAX772LR wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
While the 787 has created new routes it has not in Japan

"That's not even remotely true."

Signed,
~SAN, BOS, and a ton of resumed-previously-cancelled services.

That said, one could quite reasonably question whether:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
yes I understand opp cost and yield.

...when you continue to make statements like:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
a country of its size and wealth should be able to generate profitable F and C customers from several other metros to LAX or SFO.

the 787 has not created routes to Japanese cities besides Tokyo. maybe everywhere else is dirt poor but I doubt it.

c933103 · Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:44 am

LAXintl wrote:
AirAsia Group CEO Tony Fernandes confirmed that he is considering launching flights from Nagoya's Chubu Airport to Honolulu and the US West Coast, should he secure the necessary aircraft.

The Group is mulling the use of potential B787s out of Japan, as the approximate 10 hour routes to Europe and the US fit within the long-haul unit's business model.

No timetable on the launch or possible aircraft acquisitions were disclosed.

AirAsia is mulling flights to Hawaii and the US West Coast from Japan
http://newsroom.aviator.aero/airasia-is ... rom-japan/

=

Not much info, but suppose its sourced from a Japanese media outlet/newspaper.

Actually, that flight will be a fifth freedom flight operated by AirAsia X in Malaysia, not by AirAsia Japan. They also said that they Japan is high priority to them in year 2018 and would like to fly more to TYP/NGO/OSA and even CTS and FUK and Okinawa

Although they did mentioned that if they acquired license for mod long haul flights from Japan, they would like to operate from TYO/NGO to DPS, India, Europe and US West Coast.
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/byline/toriumi ... -00082967/

flee · Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:15 am

c933103 wrote:
Actually, that flight will be a fifth freedom flight operated by AirAsia X in Malaysia, not by AirAsia Japan.

Well, they are now increasingly promoting Airasia X as an ASEAN airline too - you can fly to BKK/KUL/DPS on Airasia X.... This year, Thai Airasia X will increase their flights to Japan too. And Indonesia Airasia X are also planning flights to Japan. No doubt, these airlines will also be in the running to operate the flights to the US.

LAX772LR · Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:12 am

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
the 787 has not created routes to Japanese cities besides Tokyo.

Also untrue:

Not only has it allowed for the resumption of previously discontinued routes such as KIX-LAX, KIX-CNS, etc; but this completely ignores the fact that several international airlines (KL, AF, QF, SQ, etc) have recently launched or relaunched routes to secondary Japanese airports using aircraft that are even larger.

...which makes it difficult to understand what you're actually complaining about.

flee · Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:34 am

lightsaber wrote:
flee wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Well, based on that logic a lot of airlines should indeed sack their management .... Fernandes went to great lengths last month to explain that the a330neo was performing better than expected and that he is sticking with the bird. Will he order the Boeings for further expansion? Perhaps.

It would be hard to sack Fernandes and senior management - most of them are also substantial shareholders in the company!

Good point.

Except Steve Wynn was sacked. The bond deals required him to not be fired!

Either way, if Boeing can produce a plane for what I'm hearing, they can sell to AirAsia below Airbus cost at normal industrial 20% profit out the door plus service profits.

Every order will be in play.

Lightsaber

The day Airasia sacks Tony Fernandes and Kamarudin Meranun will be the day it closes shop. The only other possible scenario would be if there was a hostile takeover. Apart from these situations, I doubt anybody else would dare to propose their sacking.

DaufuskieGuy · Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:57 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
the 787 has not created routes to Japanese cities besides Tokyo.

Also untrue:

Not only has it allowed for the resumption of previously discontinued routes such as KIX-LAX, KIX-CNS, etc; but this completely ignores the fact that several international airlines (KL, AF, QF, SQ, etc) have recently launched or relaunched routes to secondary Japanese airports using aircraft that are even larger.

...which makes it difficult to understand what you're actually complaining about.

it has not from North America where between AC UA AA JL and ANA there are many many 787s on other routes. YVR SFO and LAX you'd think would be good destinations to allow North American connectivity out of Japanese cities besides Tokyo

LAX772LR · Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:22 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
it has not from North America where between AC UA AA JL and ANA there are many many 787s on other routes. YVR SFO and LAX you'd think would be good destinations to allow North American connectivity out of Japanese cities besides Tokyo

YOU: 787s aren't flying new routes to Japan.
FACT: actually, yes they are. Multiple examples given.

YOU AGAIN: all of those routes are from Tokyo only
FACT AGAIN: actually, no they aren't. Multiple examples given again.

YOU NOW: well, it's not from N.America, where five mentioned airlines are conspiring to be mean to me!
FACT NOW: How many ridiculous specifications are you going to come up with, in a attempt to prove a point that has zilch logistical merit?

Again: if operating those routes would make more money relative to the alternative (that's called exceeding an Opportunity Cost (which you claim to be aware of, but very demonstrably do not comprehend), then given available fleet/authority/slots, airlines would fly them.

Multiple airlines have all three factors available, yet they choose not to fly such routes at this time.

That doesn't mean it can't/won't ever change; but for now, there are more valuable places to send their aircraft than (1) to secondary Japanese destinations, or (2) from secondary N.American routes to Tokyo. Heck, sometimes it's more financially savvy to just park the aircraft: you'd lose less money doing that, than sending it to a new marginal destination.

WPvsMW · Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:16 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
As for JR - you're not going see JR Central operating trains all the way to Kyoto from NGO even if they ever build a line to Centrair (or more likely, extend Taketoyo Line south).

Maybe when KIX submerges, NGO becomes the new KIX.

Centrair should have been built beside Gifu Hashima-eki. The first Shinkansen service to an airport in Japan. Kyoto and Nagoya as the catchment.

zakuivcustom · Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:08 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
As for JR - you're not going see JR Central operating trains all the way to Kyoto from NGO even if they ever build a line to Centrair (or more likely, extend Taketoyo Line south).

Maybe when KIX submerges, NGO becomes the new KIX.

Centrair should have been built beside Gifu Hashima-eki. The first Shinkansen service to an airport in Japan. Kyoto and Nagoya as the catchment.

Would have been easier to actually expand Komaki than build a brand-new airport near Gifu (Unless you want taxiway that zig-zag even more than those in NRT).

Well, either that or kick the JSDF out of Gifu Airfield :white:

WPvsMW · Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:23 pm

Wait... we both forgot how many jobs the construction of Centrair created, and which habatsu was owed a plum. Convenience for pax, and logistics, were not in the equation.
Now that Centrair is built, it can be traded to JDSF.

c933103 · Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:07 am

WPvsMW wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
As for JR - you're not going see JR Central operating trains all the way to Kyoto from NGO even if they ever build a line to Centrair (or more likely, extend Taketoyo Line south).

Maybe when KIX submerges, NGO becomes the new KIX.

Centrair should have been built beside Gifu Hashima-eki. The first Shinkansen service to an airport in Japan. Kyoto and Nagoya as the catchment.

IIRC Shiga had a plan to build a new airport and a new shinkansen station on the southern side of the Biwako Lake, and then other people also proposed building such a airport inside the Lake Biwako. But financial reason seems to be part of why the plan get axed?

zakuivcustom · Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:20 pm

c933103 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
As for JR - you're not going see JR Central operating trains all the way to Kyoto from NGO even if they ever build a line to Centrair (or more likely, extend Taketoyo Line south).

Maybe when KIX submerges, NGO becomes the new KIX.

Centrair should have been built beside Gifu Hashima-eki. The first Shinkansen service to an airport in Japan. Kyoto and Nagoya as the catchment.

IIRC Shiga had a plan to build a new airport and a new shinkansen station on the southern side of the Biwako Lake, and then other people also proposed building such a airport inside the Lake Biwako. But financial reason seems to be part of why the plan get axed?

You are correct.

The Shinkansen Station (Minami-Biwako Stn) was actually being constructed when it was axed. The budget balloon quickly and it was deemed that whatever supposed economic gains would not offset the enoromous construction cost.

As for the airport - it was planned around 1990s and yes, it got axed around the same time as the Shinkansen Stn. The difference is that the airport is all on paper only, and I don't think any engineering work was performed. In hindsight, it was actually a good decision anyway, seeing how even Centrair is underutilized, and how 90% of the "local" airports lose money (the newest "local" airport, FSZ (Shizuoka), is not doing that great either. Speaking of that, though, that airport has the #1 potential of being the first airport in Japan served by Shinkansen, seeing how the line literally run in a tunnel under the airport :white:

)

WPvsMW · Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:37 pm

Japanese futurists were the first to promote the "information society" in mass media, then "teletopia", and moving half the JP govt to Sendai and other Tier 2 cities, and for each of these initiatives there was a STRONGER counterbalancing force for status quo, because "services" were not "manufacturing". Here's the quandary: building airports, like roads, shinkansens and mini-shinkansens, harbors, flood control, and tunnels (Tokyo Bay, Tsugaru Strait) is infrastructure... but airports were minor league, even sandlot baseball, never major league, and remain such. I lay the blame at the altar of the old MITI, whose vision of "transportation services" never included "air services". KIX and Centrair show airports are still regarded as Black Ships off the coast of Shimoda.

5427247845 · Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Either way, if Boeing can produce a plane for what I'm hearing, they can sell to AirAsia below Airbus cost at normal industrial 20% profit out the door plus service profits.

Lightsaber

Is there any proof of those costs? I'm just curious, because at first sight it looks to me too good to be true.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net