TzvikaPick wrote:

I wonder if the fly over rights will sometime become bilateral and flights from Europe to Riyadh could fly over Israeli airspace and short some of the distance.
For example this flight from London to Riyadh fly quite a long detour to avoid Israel and Syria air space.

I think the key driver for that squiggly route is Syria, rather than Israel. Otherwise, couldn't it just cut through Lebanon?

upwardfacing wrote:

@BawliBooch

This development actually came about due to an Israeli-Saudi backchannel negotiation done in Washington DC during the Israeli PM's most recent visit to the USA. That's where the Israeli PM made the announcement.

Perhaps.

upwardfacing wrote:

@BawliBooch
The only true Indian contributing factor in this episode is that India is economically and strategically important enough to the Kingdom that the Saudis granted this favour to the Israelis, who again are looking after their own economic and geostrategic interests.

But let the chest-beating among patriots continue!

Yes, but this was a political decision that the current Indian govt. took. Everyone here seems to be looking after their own interests. But you seem to give too much credit to Israeli's, Saudis and none to Indians.

vadodara wrote:

Yes, but this was a political decision that the current Indian govt. took. Everyone here seems to be looking after their own interests. But you seem to give too much credit to Israeli's, Saudis and none to Indians.

Except it would have been over Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq in pre-2014 era. Yes, kudos to India's Ministry of External Affairs bureaucrats for saving face by finding a flight path.

Nepal, the only other Hindu country is now China's best friend, and Sri Lanka is China's closest ally. Maldives is snubbing India. Some of the greatest diplomatic achievements of current Indian administration.

c933103 wrote:

So, Saudi allow flights to Israel over them but not to Qatar.

If you had told me last year, I would have thought you failed middle school geography

Long term, what does this mean for LY flights to BKK and HKG, given that overflying Saudi Arabia and Oman could save at least an hour.

luckyone wrote:

globetrotter94 wrote:

And it looks like AI's flight has punched open the proverbial stable doors. Now SQ is also reported to be eyeing flights to Israel overflying Saudi:

https://www.nasdaq.com/article/israel-s ... 0322-00958

They’ll have issues much closer to home in either avoiding or seeking flyover approval for Indonesian and Malaysian airspace.

?!?

Are you suggesting SQ doesn't fly over Johor when landing at Changi?

I'm genuinely asking - I've flown SQ (and others) from the North into SIN many times and they always seem to go down the East coast of the Malay peninsula and then cross over Johor as they reach the airport. In fact, other than coming up from the South (where you'd cross Indonesia) I don't see any way of avoiding Malaysian airspace.

Edit: never mind - you meant because they're headed for Israel. Get it now (and couldn't delete the post).

dtw2hyd wrote:

vadodara wrote:

Yes, but this was a political decision that the current Indian govt. took. Everyone here seems to be looking after their own interests. But you seem to give too much credit to Israeli's, Saudis and none to Indians.

Except it would have been over Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq in pre-2014 era. Yes, kudos to India's Ministry of External Affairs bureaucrats for saving face by finding a flight path.

The flight didn't take that route over Pakistan, Iraq etc because of Israeli concerns (as someone else mentioned). It makes total sense. Plus I doubt any Israeli would want their flight diverted to Afghanistan/Iran or Pakistan. Having AI fly to Israeli was all Modi. The Israeli's were involved to ensure Israeli's would be safe if the flight had to land. Modi hasn't said anything about the negotiation, and he shouldn't, because it just aggravates the arab press. I think it is fairly obvious why the Israeli PM opened his mouth. Btw, I predict no other airline will get overflight rights (other than Jet but it isn't flying to TLV anytime soon). But the Israeli PM can try...

dtw2hyd wrote:

vadodara wrote:

Yes, but this was a political decision that the current Indian govt. took. Everyone here seems to be looking after their own interests. But you seem to give too much credit to Israeli's, Saudis and none to Indians.

Except it would have been over Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq in pre-2014 era. Yes, kudos to India's Ministry of External Affairs bureaucrats for saving face by finding a flight path.
.

A flight to Israel over Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq?

El Al not happy: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... reme-court

anshabhi wrote:

Which country/airline could be next to get similar rights?
And do you think at sometime AI will upgrade this to 6-7/week?

One hopes!

Let us celebrate the thaw!
If everyone focuses on what else Saudi should do, they'll shut down the flight.

So I hope this goes daily and I hope other airlines get a chance.

Even better, a bilateral!

Lightsaber

yochai wrote:

CaliguyNYC wrote:

globetrotter94 wrote:

Indeed. And the credit to be extended is at a much broader level than just for this flight. How many countries can keep up high levels of engagement with Iran, Israel, and Saudi simultaneously while also preserving great relations with all 3?

You are right AI will not make money, and I don't think EL Al makes money on TLV-BOM. These flights exist solely for diplomacy reasons. Israel and India, rightly or wrongly, see strategic rational in being better linked with each other..

El Al is a private company who will cut loss making routes,diplomacy has nothing to do with this flight. BOM has plenty of business traffic and the front of the plane is usually full, they are even adding capacity to BOM this summer, so your statement basically makes no sense

El Al may be a private company, but everything related to Israel and the Middle East involves diplomacy (or lack thereof). El Al also carries the Star of David/Flag of Israel on it's tail which sure sounds like a term in Aviation (Flag Carrier). This gives it prestige as well as makes it a target.

Look at BA up-thread and how they have to skirt Iran/Iraq border (because the middle of Iraq is dangerous)!

On a side note: In Newark, I cannot take a piss by their gate even though I've cleared security when the EWR-TLV flight is boarding (which is funny because they're implying that American security is a joke).

Can't any airline just file a flight plan with say, Amman Jordan as the final destination and then once over Jordanian airspace, change the plan to Israel? That sounds like a convenient way to get around overflight restrictions.

ryu2 wrote:

Can't any airline just file a flight plan with say, Amman Jordan as the final destination and then once over Jordanian airspace, change the plan to Israel? That sounds like a convenient way to get around overflight restrictions.

How would you return?

That would work once and then the airline would be banned overflight. Best to pre-negotiate.

I hope this grows.

Perpetual conflict sucks the economies of the region.

Lightsaber

TzvikaPick wrote:

I wonder if the fly over rights will sometime become bilateral and flights from Europe to Riyadh could fly over Israeli airspace and short some of the distance.
For example this flight from London to Riyadh fly quite a long detour to avoid Israel and Syria air space.

I think Israel is such a small country that it's airspace is only really useful to Jordan. A lot of westbound traffic out of Amman crosses Israel.

oceanvikram wrote:

As for the Israelis, I am guessing their tourist numbers (per capita) to the northern India would be similar to any other western country. Hence you will be lucky to see a handful of tourists onboard.

Israelis come to India at a far higher rate than you'd think. It is a common destination for them (perhaps even a rite of passage) after they have done their military service. There are key tourist areas that cater to Israeli tourists, and will even have signs in Hebrew (Goa, Himachal Pradesh, even in Delhi.)

In Himachal there is an Israeli government funded drug interdiction center.

That is not to say however that enough are coming that they can keep the DEL flight in profit. But that LY flight to BOM does ok.

Airline seats are a perishable quantity. AI should try to sell as many tickets as possible at 0 profit 0 loss basis, and I am sure with cheap tickets there would be enough Indians to fill the flights. Believe me, even solo flyers are on a rise in India, thanks to the dirt cheap fares offered by SE Asia airlines like AirAsia ..

peterinlisbon wrote:

TzvikaPick wrote:

I wonder if the fly over rights will sometime become bilateral and flights from Europe to Riyadh could fly over Israeli airspace and short some of the distance.
For example this flight from London to Riyadh fly quite a long detour to avoid Israel and Syria air space.

I think Israel is such a small country that it's airspace is only really useful to Jordan. A lot of westbound traffic out of Amman crosses Israel.

With Syria being the mess that it is, flights from Europe to Riyadh need to either go over Egypt or around through Iraqi airspace. Israeli airspace could shave at least a little bit off of flight times.

c933103 wrote:

aemoreira1981 wrote:

El Al not happy: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... reme-court

I recall they have previously petitioned to IATA and ICAO too saying the action by Saudi Arabia is unfair and violate international law?

The case has more merit now though.

This case has no merit. What does AI have to do about an Israeli airline not being able to fly through Saudi? That is between the Israelis and Saudi. I am starting to think that the Israeli govt doesn't give a sh*t about having more connections between India-Israel. Rather this flight is just a foil for the current govt to try and challenge the ME status quo only now at India's expense. Explains to me why the Israeli PM kept opening his mouth about the flight and aggravating the situation. So myopic and sad all at the same time. And before people go there, I am not condoning Saudi Arabia. But Israeli's issues with arab countries are between Israel and the arabs. Also there are many "unfair' things that EL Al must tolerate - heighten security costs, not being in an alliance, some airlines won't code share with them, TLV can't really be a proper hub, etc etc etc. AI is flying to Del and not BOM like EL AL (not that it should matter) and both flight times are basically the same (although DEL is longer). So no real disadvantage. The only real disadvantage is for AI because, as many have pointed out, Israelis won't want to fly AI because they don't think AI values safety - that Israelis always prefer El Al (notice how AI fans didn't start crying about how unfair or racist or what ever). Chin up, carry on.

32andBelow wrote:

Doesn't the US provide ATC services to Iraq and they have the balls to deny overflights to Israel?

Aren't they meant to be a sovereign nation these days, or have we given up that pretense?

If so, they can decide who they do and don't want flying through their airspace.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

aemoreira1981 wrote:

El Al not happy: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... reme-court

I recall they have previously petitioned to IATA and ICAO too saying the action by Saudi Arabia is unfair and violate international law?

The case has more merit now though.

No it doesn't. UA/DL flights to India used to avoid some airspaces based on overflight rights while AI uses those.

Can a country sue an airline for loss of revenue if the airline avoids their airspace?

A MELmaxed AI 787 with VT-ANI spawned out spare parts, any country will offer safe passage. Reputation matters.

I like EL AL and living in Israel I fly them a lot. Their on-board and ground staff are super nice.I just don't like it how their management picks their fights when it suits them.

They have an issue with other airlines flying to Israel over Saudi Airspace as it shortens the other airlines' flying time on routes to and from Tel Aviv.
However, they don't have a problem with other airlines upping their frequencies to and from TLV. Some years back there was a single LH flight between FRA and TLV - now there are between 3 and 4. Same applies to VIE, FCO, IST, SVO...the TLV market is huge and while EL AL is limited in its growth (they have a relatively small fleet) other airlines just keep growing immensely in TLV.

EL AL's share at Ben Gurion airport, where they are still the number one carrier, has never been lower than in 2017 and the next 2 years are certain to bring more foreign carriers with more destinations and more frequencies to existing destinations to and from TLV. Delta, Air Canada and United are increasing their share on the TLV-North America market to the detriment of EL AL. Korean Air, Cathay Pacific and Hainan have broken EL AL's monopoly to Asia. Here EL AL did not approach the Supreme Court.
Now Air India comes with a 3x weekly flight that basically is not much shorter than EL AL's (as Delhi is further away than BOM - AI merely gains not flying LONGER then LY as they can fly over Saudi Arabia and Oman, BOM-TLV is around 7:30, DEL-TLV would be around 9 hours with the detour LY flies but can be done in 7:00 if flying over Saudi Arabia and Oman, the return is about 6:30).

The majority of EL AL is no longer state-owned, still EL AL brought it upon itself to continue not to fly 1,5 days per week due to Shabbat and around 10 more days a year due to the observance of other Jewish holidays, so it looses at least 75 days a year by being willing to adhere to the will of orthodox Jews. The other 2 Israeli airlines, Arkia and Israir have no problem flying on Shabbat. Seems like EL AL management did its own calculations and apparently it pays off to not fly for 70 days.

Seems weird how not beeing able to fly for at least 75 days does not bother them but having a foreign carrier fly a slightly shorter route makes them go mad...

LHLX wrote:

The majority of EL AL is no longer state-owned, still EL AL brought it upon itself to continue not to fly 1,5 days per week due to Shabbat and around 10 more days a year due to the observance of other Jewish holidays, so it looses at least 75 days a year by being willing to adhere to the will of orthodox Jews. The other 2 Israeli airlines, Arkia and Israir have no problem flying on Shabbat. Seems like EL AL management did its own calculations and apparently it pays off to not fly for 70 days.

Seems weird how not beeing able to fly for at least 75 days does not bother them but having a foreign carrier fly a slightly shorter route makes them go mad...

And they can't play the double game of "just being an airline", and following orthodox Jewish traditions and requesting Arab nations to allow overflights.

Just for info, Air India doesn't follow any religious holidays like this ... It even flies normally on national holidays in India.

Do Israeli's are allowed to enter Saudi Arabia and other neighbours Gulf countries?

SQ789 wrote:

Do Israeli's are allowed to enter Saudi Arabia and other neighbours Gulf countries?

Generally no, but there are many exceptions to that rule.
Muslem-Israeli's can go to Saudi Arabia to join the Hajj pilgrim and Israeli's athletes usually get permission to enter Dubai or Qatar to perform.
Of course Jordan is not a problem since there's peace between the two states.

upwardfacing wrote:

This development actually came about due to an Israeli-Saudi backchannel negotiation done in Washington DC during the Israeli PM's most recent visit to the USA. That's where the Israeli PM made the announcement.

DO you have a source for this claim? Not for the announcement but for the back channel negotiations. Because you have mentioned it in other threads as well.
I find it hard to believe that Israeli-Saudi negotiation would involve an Air India flight from Delhi. I mean, in a Israeli-Saudi backchannel negotiation I could find a thousand other higher priority things to talk about.

The DEL-TLV route has been in the works for quite some time. It was brought up in the April 2017 India Aviation thread and atleast one another thread a few months before that. AI and the Israeli transportation secretary had previously engaged in talks.

http://www.rediff.com/business/report/w ... 170518.htm

upwardfacing wrote:

The euphoria expressed here, and that attendant pride expressed here, with plaudits galore going to the government in Delhi, is amusing indeed. Even on the Indian side of the equation, as you would know, there is a significant difference between an elected government and the permanent bureaucracy that tends to do all of the behind-the-scenes work. But let the chest-beating among patriots continue!

You come across as petty with an axe to grind about India for some reason. The decision to start a flight to Israel is not an easy decision for India considering their historic support to Palestine and the significant Muslim electorate in India. The present Government has been particularly effective at diplomatically engaging a lot of countries across the world and channeling their policies through bureaucrats. Seriously, they've done much better than the Western Diplomats. They've managed to improve relationships across the Globe and have stood up when they have to. With elections to be held next year, I'd say this is a gutsy call and the chest-beating among patriots is well placed.

Also, if Bibi had this all sorted out, why is El Al now dragging AI among others to court??

SATexan wrote:

You come across as petty with an axe to grind about India for some reason. The decision to start a flight to Israel is not an easy decision for India considering their historic support to Palestine and the significant Muslim electorate in India.

You're stumbling against Indian domestic politics here. Most of the posters with the attitude are hard-left types opposed PM Modi and do not want to ascribe anything positive to his administration. To do so, they're quite happy to denigrate the country in general to outsiders i.e. "c'mon this is India we're talking about. Nothing ever works right here." etc, which plays quite well to standard western stereotypes.

India is one of those rare countries with strong diplomatic relations with Israel AND Saudi Arabia AND Iran AND Palestine. That takes some doing. It's been carried on across multiple administration, both left-of-center Congress and right-of-center BJP.

India has strong link to the Gulf countries, they probably did lot of convincing to make this route happen.

It's been a week since the event. There is still no proof from the people who claimed that AI flew over Saudi airspace in the 90s.

Some amazing news !!
State-run carrier Air India's Delhi-Tel Aviv non-stop will become a daily flight shortly, with the airline giving its seal of approval to the proposal, encouraged by the 80 per cent and above occupancy rate, sources in the airline said.
"The success of the service is a testament to the strengthening of diplomatic ties between India and Israel and growing people to people contact between the two countries. We are working on the last minute details before announcing the increase in frequency to all days from thrice a week," they said.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 718544.cms

anshabhi wrote:

Some amazing news !!
State-run carrier Air India's Delhi-Tel Aviv non-stop will become a daily flight shortly, with the airline giving its seal of approval to the proposal, encouraged by the 80 per cent and above occupancy rate, sources in the airline said.
"The success of the service is a testament to the strengthening of diplomatic ties between India and Israel and growing people to people contact between the two countries. We are working on the last minute details before announcing the increase in frequency to all days from thrice a week," they said.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 718544.cms

That's good news.
Please post these news on Indian aviation thread also else most people won't get to know.

Excellent news.

globetrotter94 wrote:

And it looks like AI's flight has punched open the proverbial stable doors. Now SQ is also reported to be eyeing flights to Israel overflying Saudi:

https://www.nasdaq.com/article/israel-s ... 0322-00958

R

It would be perfect for Scoot , all those low backpacking fares would be very popular .... but they’d have to avoid I Indonesian and Malaysian airspace maybe ???? Is it possible to land or take off from Singapore without going into those airspaces?

Brilliant. Congrats to Air-India on this pioneering achievement.

Saludos,
Alex

Galwayman wrote:

globetrotter94 wrote:

And it looks like AI's flight has punched open the proverbial stable doors. Now SQ is also reported to be eyeing flights to Israel overflying Saudi:

https://www.nasdaq.com/article/israel-s ... 0322-00958

R

It would be perfect for Scoot , all those low backpacking fares would be very popular .... but they’d have to avoid I Indonesian and Malaysian airspace maybe ???? Is it possible to land or take off from Singapore without going into those airspaces?

Don't think so... they would have to negotiate with those countries to grant them access. However, as I have said before on this thread, now that Saudi allows it, I don't expect much resistance from other countries (obviously excluding Iran and their regional allies).

32andBelow wrote:

Doesn't the US provide ATC services to Iraq and they have the balls to deny overflights to Israel?

Last time I checked, Iraq was a sovereign nation and not the 51st state.