teneriffe77
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:06 am

Regarding the map from 1987 notice the small lettering that said PAN AM Express which was initially operated by Ransome Dash 7's before they painted those planes into Pan Am colors and then switched to ATR-42's (I can remember seeing one at SYR).
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:23 am

superjeff wrote:
A Braniff-Pan Am merger would have made sense. Ed Ackerman, one of the last heads of PanAm was ex-Braniff and knew both airlines well. Both airlines had pretty similar cultures and compatible equipment (although Braniff had a bunch of DC8-62’s). It would have helped Braniff compete with American at DFW, and Pan Am compete with the domestics as they gained international routes after 1978.


The DC-8-62's were actually ordered by Pan Am's Panagra division. The orders were taken over by Braniff when they bought Panagra. Had BN been in better financial health, converting the 62's to 72's would have been an option. They could have allowed BN to open up some long thin routes.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:27 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

I'm quite aware of this. Lawrence Harding thought deregulation would be short lived. That's why he went in such a binge applying for a totally unsustainable network of rights. BN had lots of existing routes that could have benefited from metal Pan Am already had, and Braniff had lots of routes that could have been used to feed PA flights at most of PA's existng hubs.


I don't disagree that Braniff could have given PA feed, but Lawrence would have had to go, and PA be a little less willy-nilly in it's route planning) as BN was).


Not just feed but the opportunity to restructure routes
using a brand new hub that was not constrained or crowded. Pan Am's routes assumed traffic connecting in New York, because previous generations of planes didn't have the range to go far inland from Europe or Asia.

A combination of Pan Am and Braniff at DFW could have put pressure on AA.


Had PA/BN worked, all it would have done is keep AA from growing the DFW hub, much of which didn't start until after BN was going down. BN had no presence on the west coast except a few weekly flights to LIM, and I think SCL or EZE. They had Miami in common. No way would PA have opted to carry more pax over JFK. Of all the potential merger partner aside the disaster PA ended up with, BN would not have worked IMO. But, it's all a what if. The bottom line was bad management on all sides.
 
johnboy
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:34 am

SunsetLimited wrote:
That map is probably from 1985 to 1987, somewhere in there.

Pan Am greatly reduced Houston flying (no more west coast, MEX, LHR nonstops for example) and left New Orleans altogether by 1985...though they would re-start MSY service in '88.


I'd tend to agree with you. I flew from Cincinnati to London around 1987 on Pan Am.
Fun fact: on the return there was an engine failure on takeoff from LHR, so we spent some time burning fuel over the ocean before returning. My first (and only) engine failure. By the time we got back to JFK, there were no flights to CVG, so Pan Am put us in a cab to LGA to catch a flight from there.
 
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cougar15
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:40 am

Pan Am attempted a merger with Braniff, but the idea was quickly dropped. Mergers were also attempted with Northwest, TWA and even Delta was discussed. There was also an attempt to get the Iranians to make a major investment in Pan Am, the Shah at the time was very keen on the idea and (Iran was a friendly nation to the US at that time of course) even the US Govt did not object. Then the Oil price dropped rapidly, and the Iran idea fizzeled out.
I can only highly recommend the book ´Skygods´ (the rise and fall of Pan Am) to the OP (it is available electronically) as it answers all the OP´s questions in detail. I just finished it, it is most fascinating reading!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
adambrau
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:02 am

I am pretty sure that the CAB started awarding int'l routes like SEA-HKG to UA, as well as additional routes to EA, DL , and AA, before deregulation. So while Pan Am wasn't given access to the country it was the flag carrier of, the CAB started giving int'l routes to the domestic carriers. Apparently Pan Am was not popular in Washington. But Pan Am helped the US Govt several times over the years on special missions, like the "Last Flight Out" https://www.panam.org/pan-am-stories/42 ... ewell-1975, all the pioneering routes across the Pacific and the Atlantic. Desert Storm. Berlin. Conspiracies of the DEA/CIA and PA103. Money makes America tick and management mistakes after deregulation just worsened the ambivalence PA received is Washington. PA employees even took out a full page ads in major US Newspapers trying to inform the American public that PA got paid less to carry mail than foreign carriers, had to pay for their own security while foreign carriers didn't, and got worse terms on financing aircraft than foreign competitors from the US Export Import Bank (EXIM). In the year before Lockerbie PA was back making record profits for a short time, but arguably was doomed by a mistaken missile fire by the USS Vincennes. On the positive side PA is still a much loved brand and missed as a carrier, on the other the US Govt's failure to play fair and PA management to adapt to deregulation (i.e. domestic feed) have a lot to answer for this once proud carrier's demise. RIP.
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:19 am

PanAm had an interchange route with Northwest Airlines that Northwest flew a PanAm 707 between MSP and DTW and back while PanAm flew it onto LHR and back to DTW.. The aircraft would stay at MSP until it was needed to fly again to fly to LHR. Some of Northwest's 747 would also interchange onto LHR and back. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:15 am

adambrau wrote:
I am pretty sure that the CAB started awarding int'l routes like SEA-HKG to UA, as well as additional routes to EA, DL , and AA, before deregulation.


SEA-NRT / HKG were awarded to UA in 1983.

DL's pre-deregulation international routes were inherited from predecessors Chicago & Southern and Northeast, except for ATL-LGW, which was awarded a few months before deregulation took effect.

The CAB did, however, allow EA to take over Caribair in 1973, giving them a hub at SJU. Some members of the CAB opposed the merger, because of its effect on PA.

Until shortly before deregulation, the CAB's policy was to allow Pan Am and one domestic competitor to serve a geographic region: PA and TWA to Europe and the Middle East, PA and Braniff to South America, PA and Northwest to the Far East (plus TWA from 1966 to 1974), and eventually PA and AA to Australia and New Zealand.

Pan Am's primary source of domestic feed before deregulation was American, because they did not fly to Europe after they sold AOA to Pan Am in 1950, and served Hawaii for only four years, 1970-74.. In 1959, when AA began 707 service from New York to LAX, PA took out full page newspaper ads congratulating AA, and encouraged passengers to take an AA 707 from New York to LAX, then Pan Am across the Pacific.
 
superjeff
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:49 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
superjeff wrote:
A Braniff-Pan Am merger would have made sense. Ed Ackerman, one of the last heads of PanAm was ex-Braniff and knew both airlines well. Both airlines had pretty similar cultures and compatible equipment (although Braniff had a bunch of DC8-62’s). It would have helped Braniff compete with American at DFW, and Pan Am compete with the domestics as they gained international routes after 1978.


The DC-8-62's were actually ordered by Pan Am's Panagra division. The orders were taken over by Braniff when they bought Panagra. Had BN been in better financial health, converting the 62's to 72's would have been an option. They could have allowed BN to open up some long thin routes.


I do agree with you, but Braniff was flying routes like JFK-EZE nonstop with the DC8-62s, which was about as long a route as they had other than Asia and Europe, for which a narrow body was acceptable. By 1987, the market, even on that type of route, people were expecting a wide body.

If a merger with Pan Am had ever occurred (and I understand one was discussed), I would imagine the DC8’s would have been gone relatively quickly, and replaced by widebody equipment (maybe. Pan Am’s L1011’s if they had done something prior to the sale of the Pacific routes to United in 1985, or A310’s).

I’m a former Braniff employee and Pan Am fan, so I miss both of these airlines.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:12 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Or they could have redeployed their fleet to other airports. They mostly had international gateways along the borders of the US. They had no international presence in interior cities like Dallas other than agreements with BN to let BN operate PA planes to airports where PA flew internationally. They could have set up operations in DFW and flown 747's from there to European hubs. They could have also moved some 747SP's to DFW to operate flights to NRT. They could have also coordinated with BN connecting on routes between DFW and Latin America to PA's hub in NRT.


Yes, but for that, they should have had really wise guys at the top, with a proper vision and capabilities for the company after Senor Trippe retired. The best was Seawell, but too late and with the terrible idea to go after National at all costs, really all costs.


It was interesting PA actually had a DFW-HNL-DFW 747 flight once a week . Can't remember when.


Yes. It operated once a week in the late 1970s using 747SP equipment. It was gone by 1979. If you blinked, you would have missed it. Didn't operate very long. Pan Am Jay Koren talks about it briefly in his book, and my wonderful and recently passed friend who flew for Pan Am from 1972 till the end told me she flew it once and remembers shopping at Neiman-Marcus on the layover. (She was the prototypical Pan Am flight attendant...smart, beautiful, sophisticated and "attractively aloof." I loved her.)
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:14 pm

Do PAM AM have freedom of flight within EU?
 
klm617
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:17 pm

KUZAWU08 wrote:
Did they do charters too? I recall flying on a chartered 727 from TUS-CLT in spring 2005 with full Pan Am colors. I still can't quite figure that one out since I know the airline had gone under. Man I wish I could find the cardboard box camera picture somewhere of that aircraft.



They used to do charters from DTW-LAS with a DC10 in the early 1980's
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
richcandy
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:04 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Do PAM AM have freedom of flight within EU?


Can't remember what happened with Pan Am but when I was a travel agent in the 1990's we used to sell seats from LHR-Germany on flights operated by United. There was a company called German Travel Service who had "nett or contact/non published fares" on these flights". What I mean is we didn't book seats directly with United we had to go through a third party. So I guess United had traffic rights between UK and Germany.

Alex
 
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william
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:41 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
PA's European 727's could have been replaced with A320's, while BN could have used the 727's to the Caribbean in the pre ETOPS narrow body era.


Funny. Didn't the second Braniff got the A320s Pan Am could no longer afford ?


Yes, but I think Braniff II went under before they could be delivered.

Flying to DFW, it is odd getting off an RJ at one of the new gates on the stinger concourse at Terminal B thinking this used to be be Braniff's home and DFW busiest terminal for a time.
 
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Polot
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:56 pm

william wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
PA's European 727's could have been replaced with A320's, while BN could have used the 727's to the Caribbean in the pre ETOPS narrow body era.


Funny. Didn't the second Braniff got the A320s Pan Am could no longer afford ?


Yes, but I think Braniff II went under before they could be delivered.

A handful (maybe 5?) were delivered but only one or two ever entered service, and only about a month or two before Braniff II shut down.
 
Cunard
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:30 pm

klm617 wrote:
KUZAWU08 wrote:
Did they do charters too? I recall flying on a chartered 727 from TUS-CLT in spring 2005 with full Pan Am colors. I still can't quite figure that one out since I know the airline had gone under. Man I wish I could find the cardboard box camera picture somewhere of that aircraft.



They used to do charters from DTW-LAS with a DC10 in the early 1980's


The company that I worked for chartered a Pan Am Boeing 741 from JFK to LHR in January 1986 as part of a ship crew change in New York, I was on that flight and it was my very first flight with Pan Am, it wasn't a very memorable flight at all, food was terrible, interiors tatty and very curse cabin crew, as an aviation enthusiast and only being 20yo at the time I was very disappointed to say the least as I had grown up with full admiration for the airline but that doesn't hinder the fact that it was once an iconic name in the world of aviation.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:44 pm

Polot wrote:
A handful (maybe 5?) were delivered but only one or two ever entered service, and only about a month or two before Braniff II shut down.


Five were delivered. http://www.aeromoe.com/fleets/bn2.html

...or six, depending on the source: https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... s=historic
I have discovered that once people are truly captivated in their ignorance, they are generally unwilling to let the facts interfere.
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BostonBeau
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:13 pm

The awarding of international airline routes used to be the personal purview of the President of the US. The CAB would have studies, meetings, discussions...and airlines wanting international routes would make their presentations...but the final decision was the President's. As someone mentioned, Pan Am was often at odds with the administration of the time, and some administrations may have retaliated. The thought often was that Pan Am is so rich, with so many international routes, that "we can give this international route to Airline X without hurting Pan AM". At the same time, the CAB would deny every request Pan Am made for domestic routes, even routes just intended to connect their international gateways so they could get planes from one place to another without having to fly empty.
 
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hippogryphe
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:18 pm

BostonBeau wrote:
The awarding of international airline routes used to be the personal purview of the President of the US. The CAB would have studies, meetings, discussions...and airlines wanting international routes would make their presentations...but the final decision was the President's. As someone mentioned, Pan Am was often at odds with the administration of the time, and some administrations may have retaliated. The thought often was that Pan Am is so rich, with so many international routes, that "we can give this international route to Airline X without hurting Pan AM". At the same time, the CAB would deny every request Pan Am made for domestic routes, even routes just intended to connect their international gateways so they could get planes from one place to another without having to fly empty.



How did Pan Am end up some critically short of political juice?
 
Yflyer
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:30 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
KUZAWU08 wrote:
Did they do charters too? I recall flying on a chartered 727 from TUS-CLT in spring 2005 with full Pan Am colors. I still can't quite figure that one out since I know the airline had gone under. Man I wish I could find the cardboard box camera picture somewhere of that aircraft.


The Pan Am we are talking about in this thread was the original one from 1927 that ceased operations in December 1991.


To elaborate a bit more on SpaceshipDC10's post, the "Pan Am" you flew on was most likely Boston-Maine Airways, one of a string of airlines to have bought the rights to use the Pan Am trademark after the original Pan Am went under.
 
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Polot
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:35 pm

hippogryphe wrote:
BostonBeau wrote:
The awarding of international airline routes used to be the personal purview of the President of the US. The CAB would have studies, meetings, discussions...and airlines wanting international routes would make their presentations...but the final decision was the President's. As someone mentioned, Pan Am was often at odds with the administration of the time, and some administrations may have retaliated. The thought often was that Pan Am is so rich, with so many international routes, that "we can give this international route to Airline X without hurting Pan AM". At the same time, the CAB would deny every request Pan Am made for domestic routes, even routes just intended to connect their international gateways so they could get planes from one place to another without having to fly empty.



How did Pan Am end up some critically short of political juice?

Pan Am under Juan Trippe was aggressive over getting what they wanted. They made many political enemies, but Trippe was still successful. Trippe retired, but most of his enemies did not, and the chickens came home to roost.
 
Pottok
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:38 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Do PAM AM have freedom of flight within EU?



Yes Pan Am have 5th freedom rights but it was a very expensive operations
 
Electronpusher9
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:58 pm

putthoff wrote:
william wrote:
Image

Pan AM did not have a good feed. And before deregulation, airlines did not operate the same as they do today.

Nashville, Austin, Syracuse, Charlotte--how strange are those cities for a non-domestic airline? How did that happen?



Thanks for the map!
 
JohnJ
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:09 pm

In the 1980s Memphis appeared on Pan Am's timetable by virtue of Air Atlanta, which had a close partnership with Pan Am. The planes at MEM were all Air Atlanta, but I remember seeing Pan Am World Services ground equipment there.
 
BostonBeau
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:11 pm

How did Pan Am end up some critically short of political juice?


Pan Am began in the 1920s/30s in the Caribbean and Central/South America. Pan Am would negotiate email and exclusive landing rights with all the various foreign governments, without the knowledge or consent of the appropriate U.S. authorities. Then, when the U.S. Post Office put up for bids an airmail contract to some foreign country, Pan Am would step forward and say "we have the exclusive landing rights in that country" and would by default win the airmail contract. This did not sit well with U.S. officials and created animosity towards Pan Am. Also, Juan Trippe and the other founders of Pan Am were Yale Republicans, and of course there was a period of 20 years when strong Democrats held the White House.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:55 pm

BostonBeau wrote:
How did Pan Am end up some critically short of political juice?


Pan Am began in the 1920s/30s in the Caribbean and Central/South America. Pan Am would negotiate email and exclusive landing rights with all the various foreign governments, without the knowledge or consent of the appropriate U.S. authorities. Then, when the U.S. Post Office put up for bids an airmail contract to some foreign country, Pan Am would step forward and say "we have the exclusive landing rights in that country" and would by default win the airmail contract. This did not sit well with U.S. officials and created animosity towards Pan Am. Also, Juan Trippe and the other founders of Pan Am were Yale Republicans, and of course there was a period of 20 years when strong Democrats held the White House.


And He tried to get Congress to make Pan Am the only legal flag carrier back in the 1940's and keep TWA out of the transatlantic market. That's when Howard Hughes was forced to appear at a Senate hearing. It didn't help Pan Am that the President was Harry Truman and that TWA was the hometown airline of St. Louis which is in Truman's home state.
 
BostonBeau
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:30 pm

And He tried to get Congress to make Pan Am the only legal flag carrier back in the 1940's and keep TWA out of the transatlantic market. That's when Howard Hughes was forced to appear at a Senate hearing. It didn't help Pan Am that the President was Harry Truman and that TWA was the hometown airline of St. Louis which is in Truman's home state.


I thought the portion of "The Aviator" film (with Leonardo DiCaprio) concerning Hughes appearing before the Senate committee was well done.

I knew that Pan Am's corporate offices were in the Chrysler Building before the Pan Am Building was constructed, but it looked from the movie as if Juan Trippe's office was up in the spire of the Chrysler Building and I didn't think there were offices up there in the spire itself (considering the sneaky way the spire was built).
 
PanHAM
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:42 am

Pottok wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Do PAM AM have freedom of flight within EU?



Yes Pan Am have 5th freedom rights but it was a very expensive operations


It was a combination of 5th freedom like LHR FRA and 3rd freedom on the Berlin routes
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:51 am

PanHAM wrote:
Pottok wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Do PAM AM have freedom of flight within EU?



Yes Pan Am have 5th freedom rights but it was a very expensive operations


It was a combination of 5th freedom like LHR FRA and 3rd freedom on the Berlin routes


Only airlines from the four occupying powers in Germany after WWII were allowed to fly to Berlin. That meant only airlines from the US, UK, France, and the Soviet Union were allowed to fly there even from German airports like FRA. This continued till Germany and the Soviet Union signed a peace treaty ending WWII hostilities in 1990 after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989.
 
brian415
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:43 am

superjeff wrote:
A Braniff-Pan Am merger would have made sense. Ed Ackerman, one of the last heads of PanAm was ex-Braniff and knew both airlines well. Both airlines had pretty similar cultures and compatible equipment (although Braniff had a bunch of DC8-62’s). It would have helped Braniff compete with American at DFW, and Pan Am compete with the domestics as they gained international routes after 1978.

It seems like Pan Am's biggest problem was that it did NOT use RUTHLESSLY use bankruptcy protection in the early 1980s the way Frank Lorenzo did with Continental.

If PA had sought bankruptcy protection before it unloaded its crown jewels of assets (Trans-Pacific and TATL route networks), it may have had a fighting chance to emerge from Chapter 11, at which point they could've built a domestic network organically or via merger.
 
PanHAM
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:53 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
Pottok wrote:


Yes Pan Am have 5th freedom rights but it was a very expensive operations


It was a combination of 5th freedom like LHR FRA and 3rd freedom on the Berlin routes


Only airlines from the four occupying powers in Germany after WWII were allowed to fly to Berlin. That meant only airlines from the US, UK, France, and the Soviet Union were allowed to fly there even from German airports like FRA. This continued till Germany and the Soviet Union signed a peace treaty ending WWII hostilities in 1990 after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989.



Not exactly correct. The Airline of the soviet Union, Aeroflot, never had authority to fly from Berlin to the western part Germany..
The western part of Berlin, the three sectors occuoied by the US, Brtain and France guaranteed the free Connection between West Berlin and Germany. For PanAm, to stay with the Topic, this was de facto a 3rd Freedom Situation. It was not cabotage, as Germany did not have the sovereign rigfhts over Berlin.

Last but nt least, there was no Peace Treaty between Germany and the Soviet Union. The treaty that ended the post war Status quo and thus the rights of PanAm in Berlin was the 4 plus 2 treaty. The 4 stands for the allied powers and the 2 stands forthe Federal Republic of Germany and the East German Regime.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
brian415
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:01 am

PanHAM wrote:
Not exactly correct. The Airline of the soviet Union, Aeroflot, never had authority to fly from Berlin to the western part Germany..
The western part of Berlin, the three sectors occuoied by the US, Brtain and France guaranteed the free Connection between West Berlin and Germany. For PanAm, to stay with the Topic, this was de facto a 3rd Freedom Situation. It was not cabotage, as Germany did not have the sovereign rigfhts over Berlin.

Last but nt least, there was no Peace Treaty between Germany and the Soviet Union. The treaty that ended the post war Status quo and thus the rights of PanAm in Berlin was the 4 plus 2 treaty. The 4 stands for the allied powers and the 2 stands forthe Federal Republic of Germany and the East German Regime.

You are right. Air Berlin itself was originally called Air Berlin USA, and it was headquartered in Oregon!
 
superjeff
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:10 pm

william wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
PA's European 727's could have been replaced with A320's, while BN could have used the 727's to the Caribbean in the pre ETOPS narrow body era.


Funny. Didn't the second Braniff got the A320s Pan Am could no longer afford ?


Yes, but I think Braniff II went under before they could be delivered.

Flying to DFW, it is odd getting off an RJ at one of the new gates on the stinger concourse at Terminal B thinking this used to be be Braniff's home and DFW busiest terminal for a time.



Braniff II did take delivery on some of the A320's and operated them for only a couple of months before they went bankrupt. Those planes ended up with America West. I remember seeing about 4 or 5 of them sitting on the ramp at PHX awaiting painting into the HP colors.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:45 pm

brian415 wrote:
superjeff wrote:
A Braniff-Pan Am merger would have made sense. Ed Ackerman, one of the last heads of PanAm was ex-Braniff and knew both airlines well. Both airlines had pretty similar cultures and compatible equipment (although Braniff had a bunch of DC8-62’s). It would have helped Braniff compete with American at DFW, and Pan Am compete with the domestics as they gained international routes after 1978.

It seems like Pan Am's biggest problem was that it did NOT use RUTHLESSLY use bankruptcy protection in the early 1980s the way Frank Lorenzo did with Continental.

If PA had sought bankruptcy protection before it unloaded its crown jewels of assets (Trans-Pacific and TATL route networks), it may have had a fighting chance to emerge from Chapter 11, at which point they could've built a domestic network organically or via merger.


Exactly. Just like AA, DL, and UA did not too long ago.
Had the US-3 not filed for Ch 11, they would have suffered the same fate of PA and gone the way of the Dodo. We then would have been left with Alaska, JetBlue and Southwest only.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:56 pm

TC957 wrote:
At LHR, they operated some 727's on flights into Europe to feed the TTL services. TWA did this as well.


United carried on the 727 flights out of LHR for a few years after they aquired PAs LHR routes in 1990. If I recall correctly, there was AMS, FRA, BRU, HAM, MUC, and TXL.

Local traffic wasn’t allowed, but as a nonrev, I was able to fly on one between LHR and MUC in 1991 or so. I remember thinking how strange it was being on a short range plane over Europe that was likely flying between DEN and ABQ or ORD and CID just the month before.
 
N505fx
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:02 am

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:02 pm

Evidently, not very well...proof is in the pudding!
 
adambrau
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:34 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
adambrau wrote:
I am pretty sure that the CAB started awarding int'l routes like SEA-HKG to UA, as well as additional routes to EA, DL , and AA, before deregulation.


SEA-NRT / HKG were awarded to UA in 1983.

DL's pre-deregulation international routes were inherited from predecessors Chicago & Southern and Northeast, except for ATL-LGW, which was awarded a few months before deregulation took effect.

The CAB did, however, allow EA to take over Caribair in 1973, giving them a hub at SJU. Some members of the CAB opposed the merger, because of its effect on PA.

Until shortly before deregulation, the CAB's policy was to allow Pan Am and one domestic competitor to serve a geographic region: PA and TWA to Europe and the Middle East, PA and Braniff to South America, PA and Northwest to the Far East (plus TWA from 1966 to 1974), and eventually PA and AA to Australia and New Zealand.

Pan Am's primary source of domestic feed before deregulation was American, because they did not fly to Europe after they sold AOA to Pan Am in 1950, and served Hawaii for only four years, 1970-74.. In 1959, when AA began 707 service from New York to LAX, PA took out full page newspaper ads congratulating AA, and encouraged passengers to take an AA 707 from New York to LAX, then Pan Am across the Pacific.


Thanks for your informative post response to mine. I only flew Pan Am from 1985 onward when I lived as a kid overseas. I was somewhat under the impression that PA paid so much for National because they had been thwarted from domestic routes while other US carriers started getting Int'l routes during the regulation era other than TW, Braniff, NW and American. I guess I was wrong!
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
brian415
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:05 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:10 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Exactly. Just like AA, DL, and UA did not too long ago.

Had the US-3 not filed for Ch 11, they would have suffered the same fate of PA and gone the way of the Dodo. We then would have been left with Alaska, JetBlue and Southwest only.

Yeah, totally. What I can't figure out is why did PA did not pursue Chapter 11 re-org when it still could? Instead they allowed things to keep deteriorating until Chapter 7 liquidation was the only option left. Basically, after they dumped their Trans-Pacific and TATL networks, they were basically a vacuous and zombie airline. They hemmed themselves in the moment they unloaded the crown jewels of their network.

It feels to me like something got in the way of them considering Chapter 11 as a plausible option. Was it pride? Was it a moral objection (not unlike AA's Gerard Arpey's moral objection to bankruptcy)? Was it that PA's board was captive to then-PA executives that were insistent on not having a creditors committee install a new executive team? Was it that PA's board had other objectives, like maintaining free travel benefits for themselves, family members and colleagues on the board.
 
BostonBeau
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 11:55 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:13 am

I used to like the interchange flights Pan Am operated with Delta and Northwest that passed through Boston on the way to Europe in the winter months (when Pan Am could not fill the planes just with Boston-originating passengers). Neither Delta nor Northwest served Boston at that point, and it was the only way I could ever see their planes. PA052 originated in New Orleans, stopped in Atlanta and I think Washington DC, then to Boston, and on to Paris. PA054 originated in Detroit, then to Boston, and on to London.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1040
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:23 am

BostonBeau wrote:
I used to like the interchange flights Pan Am operated with Delta and Northwest that passed through Boston on the way to Europe in the winter months (when Pan Am could not fill the planes just with Boston-originating passengers). Neither Delta nor Northwest served Boston at that point, and it was the only way I could ever see their planes. PA052 originated in New Orleans, stopped in Atlanta and I think Washington DC, then to Boston, and on to Paris. PA054 originated in Detroit, then to Boston, and on to London.


The interchange out of New Orleans was on a Pan Am DC8-21 (non fanjet) and operated MSY-ATL-IAD-LHR. Never through Boston. Later, when they got rid of the DC8's at Pan Am, I think they went to a 747 for a while, but originated just out of ATL.
 
FlyPeoria
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:30 am

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:11 am

EvanWSFO wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

It was interesting PA actually had a DFW-HNL-DFW 747 flight once a week . Can't remember when.


It is in the July 1977 OAG.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1657
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:49 am

Channex757 wrote:
Once again a lack of outside vision.

Pan Am was a Global Brand. They had long established routes across the world and a strong sales network PA didn't exist on just whatever feeder traffic came its way, they used their brand to feed the network from outside the USA. Passengers would book with Pan Am PRECISELY because it was Pan Am and that generated plenty of revenue in foreign currency to fill the seats.

TWA was the same. Both also benefited post-war from the German traffic rights mentioned above, and of course those old worldwide agreements for Empire Routes type multi-stop flights.

There must be a huge amount of these lapsed rights still out there.



Great points..not sure if the thread still exists (didn't look) but i recall seeing on here a post ( and I recall printing it) of all the dormant TWA authorities that AA acquired in the asset purchase from the BK court in 2001. Lots of routes with multiple stops designed for Connies and such, all post WWII. One in particular stood out was ROM-ATH-Bagdad-Basra- to somewhere...I thought the stop is Basra was interesting.
 
BostonBeau
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 11:55 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:29 am


The interchange out of New Orleans was on a Pan Am DC8-21 (non fanjet) and operated MSY-ATL-IAD-LHR. Never through Boston. Later, when they got rid of the DC8's at Pan Am, I think they went to a 747 for a while, but originated just out of ATL.


Check out this page for PA52: I was wrong about the stop in ATL. http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/pa/pa69/pa69-04.jpg The flight routed MSY-IAD-BOS-ORY on a Delta DC8. The routing for PA52 differed from year to year in the 60's though. One winter it was ORD-BOS-ORY.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:37 pm

FlyPeoria wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:


It is in the July 1977 OAG.


Thanks. Transamerica flew a weekly STL-DFW-HNL flight 1x weekly also, In the 80's, again not sure of the date though I do have that timetable.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:43 pm

PA/DL also had an interchange MSY-ATL-IAD-LHR-FRA and back in the 60's with a PA DC8. Then when 747's were around, the ATL-IAD-LHR section was on the jumbo.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 8197
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:50 pm

brian415 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Exactly. Just like AA, DL, and UA did not too long ago.

Had the US-3 not filed for Ch 11, they would have suffered the same fate of PA and gone the way of the Dodo. We then would have been left with Alaska, JetBlue and Southwest only.

Yeah, totally. What I can't figure out is why did PA did not pursue Chapter 11 re-org when it still could? Instead they allowed things to keep deteriorating until Chapter 7 liquidation was the only option left. Basically, after they dumped their Trans-Pacific and TATL networks, they were basically a vacuous and zombie airline. They hemmed themselves in the moment they unloaded the crown jewels of their network.

It feels to me like something got in the way of them considering Chapter 11 as a plausible option. Was it pride? Was it a moral objection (not unlike AA's Gerard Arpey's moral objection to bankruptcy)? Was it that PA's board was captive to then-PA executives that were insistent on not having a creditors committee install a new executive team? Was it that PA's board had other objectives, like maintaining free travel benefits for themselves, family members and colleagues on the board.

At the time Chap 11 had a much greater stigma against it and was avoided at all cost. It was basically seen as the final step preparing for Chap 7. Attitudes have changed and Chap 11 is now seen and recognized more as a tool to right the ship by both businesses and the general public.
 
BUFJACK10
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:09 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:14 pm

teneriffe77 wrote:
Regarding the map from 1987 notice the small lettering that said PAN AM Express which was initially operated by Ransome Dash 7's before they painted those planes into Pan Am colors and then switched to ATR-42's (I can remember seeing one at SYR).


Prior to Ransome Empire Airlines (UR) provided the PanAm Express sevice withF28's. They were not however painted in PanAm colors. I believe this ended when Empire was aquired by piedmont
AA AK AL AQ AS B6 CO DL EA FL F9 HP KN NY MO NW PA PE PI RC QX TW UA UR US WN AF AN AO CS IB OA TR VS
A300 A319 A320 BAE146 BAC111 DC8 DC9 DC10 MD80 707 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 L10 F27 F28 F100 ERJ CRJ SE-210 SSC B1900 ATR42 ATR72 DH8 E120 SWM
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1676
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:54 pm

adambrau wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
adambrau wrote:
I am pretty sure that the CAB started awarding int'l routes like SEA-HKG to UA, as well as additional routes to EA, DL , and AA, before deregulation.


SEA-NRT / HKG were awarded to UA in 1983.

DL's pre-deregulation international routes were inherited from predecessors Chicago & Southern and Northeast, except for ATL-LGW, which was awarded a few months before deregulation took effect.

The CAB did, however, allow EA to take over Caribair in 1973, giving them a hub at SJU. Some members of the CAB opposed the merger, because of its effect on PA.

Until shortly before deregulation, the CAB's policy was to allow Pan Am and one domestic competitor to serve a geographic region: PA and TWA to Europe and the Middle East, PA and Braniff to South America, PA and Northwest to the Far East (plus TWA from 1966 to 1974), and eventually PA and AA to Australia and New Zealand.

Pan Am's primary source of domestic feed before deregulation was American, because they did not fly to Europe after they sold AOA to Pan Am in 1950, and served Hawaii for only four years, 1970-74.. In 1959, when AA began 707 service from New York to LAX, PA took out full page newspaper ads congratulating AA, and encouraged passengers to take an AA 707 from New York to LAX, then Pan Am across the Pacific.


Thanks for your informative post response to mine. I only flew Pan Am from 1985 onward when I lived as a kid overseas. I was somewhat under the impression that PA paid so much for National because they had been thwarted from domestic routes while other US carriers started getting Int'l routes during the regulation era other than TW, Braniff, NW and American. I guess I was wrong!


You aren't entirely incorrect.

In 1978, just before deregulation took effect, the CAB gave Delta and Braniff routes to London, and transferred Pan Am's largely unused route authority to Scotland and Scandinavia to Northwest. Although no other airlines were awarded overseas routes, Pan Am knew that once deregulation took effect, the CAB would probably allow other domestic airlines to fly overseas - which is exactly what happened post-deregulation.

Pan Am knew that when deregulation took effect, they would need a domestic feeder system, once the airlines that had previously fed them began flying overseas post-deregulation. They had a choice between buying National, or developing their own domestic route system. National had a relatively new fleet of DC-10s and 727-200s, and served Pan Am's main international gateway cities, SFO, LAX, MIA, and JFK, plus booming Houston.

Buying National seemed cheaper than buying new 727-200s from Boeing and starting a domestic airline from scratch. However, Pan Am did not consider:

1. Although National served most of Pan Am's international gateway cities, they served relatively few domestic cities that Pan Am didn't fly to, and the cities they did serve were places like Jacksonville, Savannah, and Mobile, that generated relatively few international passengers. The only city served by Pan Am but not National in the 48 continental US states, Detroit, was much larger and generated far more international passengers than any of the cities served by National but not Pan Am.

2. After the merger, Pan Am had to raise the wages of National's employees up to the wages Pan Am's pre-merger employees earned. National was one of the two lowest cost large airlines before deregulation (Northwest was the other), and large parts of National's network became unprofitable once their employees' wages increased.

3. National's routes from the Northeast to Florida were attacked after deregulation by existing airlines like TWA and post-deregulation startups like Air Florida and PeoplExpress, further eroding the profitability of the pre-merger National system.

4. After the merger, Pan Am sold National's severely under utilized Sundrome at JFK to TWA, and moved pre-merger National flights to the Worldport. However, the Worldport could not accomodate both National's flights and Allegheny / USAir's flights, so Allegheny / USAir moved from the Worldport to the oldest concourse at TWA's original (Saarinen) terminal at JFK, and began feeding TWA instead of Pan Am.

In hindsight, Pan Am would have been better off buying 727-200s from Boeing, plus maybe a few L-1011-100s in addition to the L-1011-500s they had previously ordered, and built a domestic network from scratch - focusing on cities like Dallas, Atlanta, and Minneapolis that generated large numbers of international passengers but were not on Pan Am's system.
 
BostonBeau
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 11:55 pm

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:19 am

Before deregulation, National operated several flights a day between BOS and JFK, generally timed to make connections to international flights at JFK. National operated more BOS-JFK flights than any other airline at the time. During those days, many people traveled to Europe on a package tour, and most package tours originated at JFK. I think at that time, fares were based on the distance between starting and ending point, not on the actual miles flown. So a flight from Boston to London via JFK cost no more than a nonstop Boston-London flight: the airlines involved divvied up what was paid for the ticket. But, if you were on a tour-based fare, even though the airline would make more money flying you nonstop, rather than connecting at JFK, they wouldn't do it. I spent 30 minutes on the phone once with a Pan Am tour agent trying to convince him to let me fly BOS-LHR instead of BOS-JFK-LHR on a tour-based ticket.

National had a big problem though with labor, and more often than not was on strike. It's probably an urban myth, but supposedly National was in no hurry to settle strikes, because they made more from the mutual aid pact airlines used to have than they did flying.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1040
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: How did PanAm feed its network?

Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:43 am

BostonBeau wrote:

The interchange out of New Orleans was on a Pan Am DC8-21 (non fanjet) and operated MSY-ATL-IAD-LHR. Never through Boston. Later, when they got rid of the DC8's at Pan Am, I think they went to a 747 for a while, but originated just out of ATL.


Check out this page for PA52: I was wrong about the stop in ATL. http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/pa/pa69/pa69-04.jpg The flight routed MSY-IAD-BOS-ORY on a Delta DC8. The routing for PA52 differed from year to year in the 60's though. One winter it was ORD-BOS-ORY.


Very interesting. I didn't remember that they went via BOS or to ORY on the interchange.

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