Egerton
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Re: India Grounds Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines

Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:44 pm

Deleted - same as above
 
Bricktop
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Re: India Grounds Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines

Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:50 pm

WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:
My theory from way back was that the PW GTF for the A320NEO engine is hung on the wing differently from the other GTF's and pictures suggested may even have been flight tested in the normal GTF configuration not the one used on the A320NEO they certainly didn't use the A320 pylon, so when they actually got it on the A320 pylons the stresses and flex was different. Its in an old thread somewhere.

It's an interesting theory. I wonder if it will ever be confirmed or denied?


How are GTF engine numbers distributed over aircraft type?
IMU the Airbus hung GTF are the (distinct) majority of delivered engines?

Isn't the A320 version also larger than the others? Maybe a scalability issue? (#Layman)
 
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:03 pm

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-446704/ has some interesting additional background:

The grounding follows the emergency landing of an IndiGo A320neo in in Ahmedabad on a service from Lucknow on 12 March. The aircraft "experienced [a] technical glitch with its Number 2 engine", says the carrier.

Two similar cases occurred recently, the DGCA notes: a Jammu-bound GoAir A320neo returned to Leh on 24 February and a Kolkata-bound IndiGo A320neo returned to Mumbai on 5 March.

The DGCA has been informed by the European Aviation Safety Agency that it is evaluating "some interim proposals," and will be revising the emergency airworthiness directive "in due course as soon as current affected engines will be modified with a safer interim design".

P&W expects to replace all the affected engines "by early June", adds the DGCA, even though "there is no concrete proposal in place at this stage to address the issue".

So DGCA took into account incidents on Feb 24, Mar 5 and Mar 12 before ordering the grounding.

I can see their concern.

Add to that their concern about a lack of a remedy, and I can imagine the decision wasn't too difficult.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-446704/
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Tn55337
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Re: India Grounds Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:32 am

SlashingAx wrote:
william wrote:
Teething problems, most new engines have them.


Which is fine to say if solutions are proposed and implemented successfully, but all P&W's fixes don't seem to stick.

I feel for the engineers working on this problem. Pressure from management and the customer is high enough when a problem creeps up during testing. Now another problem has creeped up and they have a gun to there heads demanding a fix yesterday. It is fairly clear that they are not being given time to test any fix they come up with.
 
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Re: India Grounds Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:44 am

Not realistic to find everything before. Airline Business is different from test flights. Even if you are simulating daily rotations, you still have differences from the real thing.

I think things are thrown out of Proportion on A.net regarding the PW. Yes, those issues are not nice, but we are talking about an entirely new engine after 3 decades, which now has been used 2 years.[/quote]
Totally agree. How many engines were built for testing vs how many are in service now? Btw, recalls on cars after a new model come out are very common, it is the nature of the beast with trying to test something that is going to last decades in a year.
 
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Re: India Grounds Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:22 am

keesje wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Not good. Seems PW's recovery strategy has just melted down.

Dunno if "just" is the right word there...

There's a REASON that PW hasn't been selected to independently power any new widebody derivative by Boeing or Airbus for the last 21yrs, and it doesn't seem like that's going to be changing anyyyyyyy time soon.


Well it has on the CSeries, E2, MRJ and MS21. That said I would be conservative to if responsible..

None of which are (1) widebodies nor (2) produced by Boeing or Airbus.

There's a reason those criteria were mentioned: the objects with the highest risk + highest margin, by the producers who can afford to be the most discretionary.

And they aren't going anywhere near Pratt as an independent producer for that market segment.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
RickNRoll
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:55 am

This must be costing P&W a lot of money. How deep are their pockets?
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:03 am

A good explanation of the core hanging (A320) v fan hanging (standard GTF) problem taken from a previous thread.

Amiga500 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
So I get that the engine is mounted now at the core section. But wouldn't the rest of the engine be able to support the shaft so it doesn't bow? Why would the position of the mount make a difference?


Because the rest of the engine is now loaded differently (along with the shaft) - and in high temperature conditions, the structure isn't rigid enough to sufficiently constrain thermal expansion and the inherent mechanical load (gravity).

If you were to take a beam of length 1m, put 10 kN/m uni distributed load on it, and support it at (A)centrepoint [0.5m] and (B)0.25m and 0.75m you'd see the bending moment comes down by a factor of over 4 when going from A to B.

The A320 mount is analogous to support A and CSeries/MRJ support B.


If the engine is flexing either under load or static heat sink conditions its easy to imagine that this may have an effect on oil seals. PW seem to be chasing the problem hoping it can be fixed on a component level but 3 fixes have failed thus far, if its a fundamental load path issue a component level fix may not be possible.
BV
 
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O530CarrisPT
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Re: India Grounds Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines

Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:03 am

keesje wrote:

Well it has on the CSeries, E2, MRJ and MS21. That said I would be conservative to if responsible..


Those are not widebodies built by Airbus or Boeing. I really had hope that the PW1000G GTF would be scaled up for a widebody, like an second engine option for the Airbus's A350XWB (only the now-defunct A358 and the A359) for the convenience of some airlines. But it seems that the RR's Trent XWB is performing well and my hope of a widebody GTF engine seems to be nothing but a promise. About the Boeing's NMA, I'd rather see GE or RR to power it.

Tn55337 wrote:
Totally agree. How many engines were built for testing vs how many are in service now? Btw, recalls on cars after a new model come out are very common, it is the nature of the beast with trying to test something that is going to last decades in a year.


Again, I admit that I made a mistake here (using tech industry practices in aviation is not right at all), but I wanted to say that Pratt & Whitney should have found those problems on the A320neo's GTF engine right before delivering to the customer, and if those persist after the delivery, P&W should be committed to fix the remaining issues on the engine.
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
 
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:08 am

Colour me skeptical that the likes of IndiGo, GoAir and others around the world have ordered 100s of these planes and are still betting on PW delivering to have them flying successfully day in and day out.
Vahroone
 
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:15 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Colour me skeptical that the likes of IndiGo, GoAir and others around the world have ordered 100s of these planes and are still betting on PW delivering to have them flying successfully day in and day out.

What choice do they have? Probably too late to do what AAB/QR did and refuse to take PW powered A320s.

They've chosen an aggressive plan by putting themselves at the head of the queue for an unproven product. The hope was that the product introduction would be smooth and the performance benefits would give them more profit. Now we find the introduction was not smooth. Back when AAB was complaining people on a.net said "that's what you sign up for when you're the launch customer". It's still true.

Once all the problems are sorted they will get great performance:

The source says that the PW1100G "is delivering results above expected forecasts" with a 16% fuel improvement over the International Aero Engines V2500 and a one to two percent fuel improvement over the CFM LEAP engine.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ta-446659/
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:49 am

Revelation wrote:

Once all the problems are sorted they will get great performance:

The source says that the PW1100G "is delivering results above expected forecasts" with a 16% fuel improvement over the International Aero Engines V2500 and a one to two percent fuel improvement over the CFM LEAP engine.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ta-446659/



The same "source" at the beguining of the article was claiming that no major issues will crop up... :roll: few hours before grouding... I may not trust everything from that source...

Speaking to FlightGlobal at the Wings India air show in Hyderabad, a source close to developments says that airline data offers hope that no new, major issues will crop up.
 
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O530CarrisPT
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:59 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Colour me skeptical that the likes of IndiGo, GoAir and others around the world have ordered 100s of these planes and are still betting on PW delivering to have them flying successfully day in and day out.


The airlines have no other choice (they're not to blame for the problems of the engine, in first place - they picked the engine because it promises high levels of efficiency, a thing which it'll certainly accomplish, although after this problems get solved) - and as Revelation said, is now too late to do the same thing as Qatar Airways (QR) did (refusing to take PW GTF-powered A320neos because of the problems which are ensnaring the engine).
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Colour me skeptical that the likes of IndiGo, GoAir and others around the world have ordered 100s of these planes and are still betting on PW delivering to have them flying successfully day in and day out.

What choice do they have? Probably too late to do what AAB/QR did and refuse to take PW powered A320s.

They've chosen an aggressive plan by putting themselves at the head of the queue for an unproven product. The hope was that the product introduction would be smooth and the performance benefits would give them more profit. Now we find the introduction was not smooth. Back when AAB was complaining people on a.net said "that's what you sign up for when you're the launch customer". It's still true.

Once all the problems are sorted they will get great performance:


The only good thing about this PW saga is that airlines are not losing anything monetarily. For example, last time PW paid out some really handsome compensation to IndiGo: Compensation from P&W, Airbus has IndiGo net soaring fourfold
http://www.thehindu.com/business/compen ... 956034.ece
I got some real work to do now. Bye!
 
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:12 pm

Pie11e wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Once all the problems are sorted they will get great performance:

The source says that the PW1100G "is delivering results above expected forecasts" with a 16% fuel improvement over the International Aero Engines V2500 and a one to two percent fuel improvement over the CFM LEAP engine.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ta-446659/

The same "source" at the beguining of the article was claiming that no major issues will crop up... :roll: few hours before grouding... I may not trust everything from that source...

Speaking to FlightGlobal at the Wings India air show in Hyderabad, a source close to developments says that airline data offers hope that no new, major issues will crop up.

I'm torn between my love for the PW GTF and my love for snarkiness.

This time GTF wins out, so I'll point out the issue with the seal is not a new, major issue, it's an old, major issue and India's grounding of the fleet is a side effect of that old, major issue.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Colour me skeptical that the likes of IndiGo, GoAir and others around the world have ordered 100s of these planes and are still betting on PW delivering to have them flying successfully day in and day out.

What choice do they have? Probably too late to do what AAB/QR did and refuse to take PW powered A320s.

They've chosen an aggressive plan by putting themselves at the head of the queue for an unproven product. The hope was that the product introduction would be smooth and the performance benefits would give them more profit. Now we find the introduction was not smooth. Back when AAB was complaining people on a.net said "that's what you sign up for when you're the launch customer". It's still true.

Once all the problems are sorted they will get great performance:

The source says that the PW1100G "is delivering results above expected forecasts" with a 16% fuel improvement over the International Aero Engines V2500 and a one to two percent fuel improvement over the CFM LEAP engine.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ta-446659/


Interesting, so the GTF is more efficient than the LEAP, yet the LEAP has more than 50% of the A320/321 orders. And I thought the new generation of engines were suppose to be 20% more efficient than their predecessors..
 
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Polot
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:31 pm

william wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Colour me skeptical that the likes of IndiGo, GoAir and others around the world have ordered 100s of these planes and are still betting on PW delivering to have them flying successfully day in and day out.

What choice do they have? Probably too late to do what AAB/QR did and refuse to take PW powered A320s.

They've chosen an aggressive plan by putting themselves at the head of the queue for an unproven product. The hope was that the product introduction would be smooth and the performance benefits would give them more profit. Now we find the introduction was not smooth. Back when AAB was complaining people on a.net said "that's what you sign up for when you're the launch customer". It's still true.

Once all the problems are sorted they will get great performance:

The source says that the PW1100G "is delivering results above expected forecasts" with a 16% fuel improvement over the International Aero Engines V2500 and a one to two percent fuel improvement over the CFM LEAP engine.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ta-446659/


Interesting, so the GTF is more efficient than the LEAP, yet the LEAP has more than 50% of the A320/321 orders. And I thought the new generation of engines were suppose to be 20% more efficient than their predecessors..


Depends on how things are measured. Airbus usually touts fuel burn per a seat, and I believe they have one more row or so in their standard layout now due to space flex (which is available on the CEO too of course but not sure ever applied to their marketing layout).
 
 
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:56 pm

william wrote:

Thanks for the reference. I've referred to it in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1386239&p=20251687#p20251687 because it clarified some of the issues for me.
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anshabhi
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:27 am

IndiGo, which has the largest share in the domestic aviation market, would be cancelling as many as 488 flights during the period March 15-31. GoAir has decided to cancel a total of 138 flights between March 15-22, as per announcements made on their respective websites.
According to the curtailed flight schedule submitted to the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) and posted on the airline's website, IndiGo would not operate 36 daily flights between March 15 and March 21.
Another 18 daily flights would remain cancelled between March 22 and March 24. The number of flights cancelled between March 25 and March 31 stands at 26 per day, the airline indicated.

https://m.economictimes.com/industry/tr ... 319786.cms

Ouuchh!! That would hurt. Airbus and PW would have to give much larger compensations this time. Not to forget, 600 flights only till March end and the engines are not expected to be fixed till atleast June.
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:13 pm

6E 132 landed at DEL at 8:45 AM. Reported an engine snag. Probable cause- failure in 3rd bearing seal. VT-ITX (A320 Neo). 6 months old plane #avgeek #Aviation #A320 @bsindia
A/C is on ground since then.
https://twitter.com/ari_maj/status/975315955831128064
I got some real work to do now. Bye!
 
sibibom
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:09 am

Third IndiGo flight grounded in 24 hours

source : https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/t ... 2018-03-19

By the looks of it, PW is really in trouble and India may ground the engine if this trend continues.
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Grounds affected Airbus Planes With Troubled Pratt & Whitney Engines After Indigo Incident

Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:26 am

sibibom wrote:
Third IndiGo flight grounded in 24 hours

source : https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/t ... 2018-03-19

By the looks of it, PW is really in trouble and India may ground the engine if this trend continues.


So beyond the 11 NEOs which were grounded by DGCA, we have VT-IVE and ITX grounded too. Almost 50% of 6E's NEO fleet is grounded and you just don't know when the next engine failure will occur.

Interesting Graphic:

Image
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 358541.cms


Another noticeable thing is flyers are double checking whether its a NEO, and if it's then probably that's a very sad thing for the airline.

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