Draken21fx
Topic Author
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Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:26 pm

The Guardian seems to like Ryanair a lot :)

According to this article https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/09/flyer-beware-ryanair-to-sell-tickets-with-brexit-caveat they will start selling tickets (September 2018 onwards) with the following disclaimer
This flight is subject to the regulatory environment allowing the flight to take place.


I would kindly ask to leave the pro/against Brexit comments out of this topic please. My questions are two:

a. Is the above disclaimer within the rights of an airline and is it legally binding within the EU/UK?
b. Do you believe others will follow or is it again a publicity stunt from Ryanair?
 
c933103
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:35 pm

I don't think it need to be legally blinding as they already cancel their flights from time to time with various different reasons without huge consequences on the airlines
 
Socrates17
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:37 pm

I'm not competent to discuss if such a disclaimer has any legal validity, but regarding your 2nd question I think it can be both a publicity stunt and (assuming his legal staff told him it might be valid) an attempt to cover the airline in a worst case scenario. MOL is hardly publicity averse, but he might well have an actual concern. Also, regardless of their private worries, I don't think it likely that any other carrier would be as willing to court controversy as Ryanair is. So, I don't think this is a trend.
You Can't Take the Sky from Me
 
c933103
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:46 pm

Wait why September not March?
 
Andy33
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:50 pm

Draken21fx wrote:
The Guardian seems to like Ryanair a lot :)

According to this article https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/09/flyer-beware-ryanair-to-sell-tickets-with-brexit-caveat they will start selling tickets (September 2018 onwards) with the following disclaimer
This flight is subject to the regulatory environment allowing the flight to take place.


I would kindly ask to leave the pro/against Brexit comments out of this topic please. My questions are two:

a. Is the above disclaimer within the rights of an airline and is it legally binding within the EU/UK?
b. Do you believe others will follow or is it again a publicity stunt from Ryanair?


Impossible to answer the questions as the article does not say which flights the disclaimer is applied to. It is scarcely likely to be added to bookings for Italian domestic flights, for example, since Brexit would have zero effect on them.
If it is applied only to UK domestic flights (which an Irish airline might potentially not be able to operate), the only airline in a similar situation is Aer Lingus with flights from BHD to LHR. (assuming BA and EasyJet have solutions, which I think they do)
If it applies to all flights where one end of the journey is in the UK, then obviously all airlines who fly to the UK from anywhere are affected.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:59 pm

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 83241.html

Hard to leave the Brexit politics out of this one as it's exactly that which is driving this, Ducksy is not a happy boy.
 
Arion640
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:00 pm

Nothing new. Scoot do this, I was looking at a HKG-SIN-BKK flight for the summer which had a similar message.
319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75.

No CONC sadly.
 
JAmie2k9
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:09 pm

c933103 wrote:
Wait why September not March?


People usually book in advance! September is when most of 2019 schedule will be out. Its a good PR stunt to get people to focus on aviation related matters but will unlikely be a problem as agreement will be reached.
 
BHXLOVER
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:23 pm

Telling their customers that the flight may or may not take place is hardly instilling customer confidence.

I think if I saw this when booking my flight, I would look elsewhere.
 
JibberJim
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:37 pm

BHXLOVER wrote:
Telling their customers that the flight may or may not take place is hardly instilling customer confidence.


But it's okay! 'cos if it doesn't take place, those generous EU flight rules will kick in with compensation!
 
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Aisak
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:50 pm

Andy33 wrote:
It is scarcely likely to be added to bookings for Italian domestic flights, for example, since Brexit would have zero effect on them.
If it is applied only to UK domestic flights (which an Irish airline might potentially not be able to operate), the only airline in a similar situation is Aer Lingus with flights from BHD to LHR. (assuming BA and EasyJet have solutions, which I think they do).

Well, Brexit also affects EU27 airlines on their flights from EU27 to UK not only on UK domestic flights. Ryanair being Irish may not be able to operate Italy-UK flights while does good on domestic Italian flights
 
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jaybird
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:33 pm

Don't know about EU roles - but in the past I've seen many US airlines state "subject to government approvals." Same thing - "if it's legal for us to operate the flight we will, if not we'll cancel the flight." Depends on how small the notation is and where they put it!
 
lhrnue
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:34 pm

Logical ... what else can they do?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:41 pm

When is Brexit supposed to take place?
You know all is right is the world when the only thing people worry about is if the president had sex with a pornstar.


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TWA902fly
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:22 pm

I think this is a pretty normal warning. I've seen it before, albeit with new routes that are 'subject to government approval'. It makes sense. The routes aren't new, but the legal boundaries of the EU are changing, and this applicable aviation agreements will also change, not much different than a new route to a new country.

I've even had an encounter with a situation with this warning. I booked Finnair to fly HEL-LYR... but Norway wouldn't allow the flights. Finnair cancelled all their LYR flights, and fully refunded my flight, and I rebooked HEL-OSL-LYR on SAS instead. Article: http://icepeople.net/2016/03/30/finnair ... agreement/

'902
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jimbobjoe
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:22 pm

If an airline has good reason to believe that it may not be able to operate the routes...then there is an obligation that they tell people buying tickets that the flight may not occur.

Ryanair announcing it this early (and publicly) is a reflection of Ryanair's politics. But other airlines will follow suit if no agreement is in place or in reasonable progress as March 30, 2019 comes closer.

I think there is a good chance that other airlines will have to follow suit with a similar warning. That's not necessarily saying that they won't have an agreement in place...more that the agreement may be signed very close to Brexit day (or an extension/series of extensions will push it back.)
 
LJ
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:33 pm

JibberJim wrote:
BHXLOVER wrote:
Telling their customers that the flight may or may not take place is hardly instilling customer confidence.


But it's okay! 'cos if it doesn't take place, those generous EU flight rules will kick in with compensation!


NO, this is exactly what the disclaimer prevents. The compensation rules do not apply in case of force majeure or when the customer has been notified x days in advance. The consequences of a Brexit will be known more than the x days in advance thus one can forget any compensation. Moreover by placing this disclaimer, Ryanair can argue that the customer is aware that the flight may not be operated. This will certainly play a role should a passenger try to sue Ryanair when they have to cancel the flight due to regulatory reasons.

jaybird wrote:
Don't know about EU roles - but in the past I've seen many US airlines state "subject to government approvals." Same thing - "if it's legal for us to operate the flight we will, if not we'll cancel the flight." Depends on how small the notation is and where they put it!


The same happens in the EU. The only difference is that it isn't usually done for flights currently operating. However, given the situation Ryanair is in it's very understandable they put this disclaimer on some flights.
 
ei146
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:38 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
When is Brexit supposed to take place?


29th of March 2019 at midnight Central European or 11pm UK time.
Nobody knows, what rules will be in place after that date. We don't even know, if and how people will be allowed to cross borders between EU and UK after Brexit because no agreement is in place. So there might be no passengers for any flights anyway...
 
B777LRF
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:14 pm

September 2018, eh? That'll be at the end of the summer season then, when Ryanair have run their dwindling crew so hard, they're flat out of hours. So let's hide the inevitable cancellations behind a veil of political protest.

That the RYR publicity machine actually have people fall for it, speaks equally for their talent and their gullible audience.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
smallvoyageur
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:26 pm

ei146 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
When is Brexit supposed to take place?


29th of March 2019 at midnight Central European or 11pm UK time.
Nobody knows, what rules will be in place after that date. We don't even know, if and how people will be allowed to cross borders between EU and UK after Brexit because no agreement is in place. So there might be no passengers for any flights anyway...


Agree to the problem why MOL is saying this is simple, no-one knows what the f**k is happening.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:38 pm

It must be remembered also that if the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal, then European rights for cancelled flights (EU Regulation 261/2004) would no longer have any legal impact for UK costumers, as the European Court of Justice would no longer have jurisdiction.

So the compensation schemes/rights we have enjoyed to date will likely no longer apply,

As such a disclaimer in their T&C's to help mitigate any UK legal claims post Brexit is very wise.
 
sevenair
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:30 am

Richard28 wrote:
It must be remembered also that if the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal, then European rights for cancelled flights (EU Regulation 261/2004) would no longer have any legal impact for UK costumers, as the European Court of Justice would no longer have jurisdiction.

So the compensation schemes/rights we have enjoyed to date will likely no longer apply,

As such a disclaimer in their T&C's to help mitigate any UK legal claims post Brexit is very wise.


EU261 applies to flights to and from the EU so a lot of flights will still qualify for the compensation although I see the fact that some flights won't qualify for the rediculous and punitive compensation as a positive.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:50 am

Even May don’t know what’s happen in March
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:15 am

.........all MOL is concerned about is him having to pay UK taxes on his UK business, rather than the cheaper tax bill he currently gets from Dublin.

If FR were to leave the UK market for good tomorrow; I for one would be applauding, along with a wish that the door didn't hit him in the a$$ on the way out.
 
c933103
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:04 am

JAmie2k9 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Wait why September not March?


People usually book in advance! September is when most of 2019 schedule will be out. Its a good PR stunt to get people to focus on aviation related matters but will unlikely be a problem as agreement will be reached.

What? Are we reading same news article?
 
rrapynot
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:05 am

Richard28 wrote:
It must be remembered also that if the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal, then European rights for cancelled flights (EU Regulation 261/2004) would no longer have any legal impact for UK costumers, as the European Court of Justice would no longer have jurisdiction.

So the compensation schemes/rights we have enjoyed to date will likely no longer apply,

As such a disclaimer in their T&C's to help mitigate any UK legal claims post Brexit is very wise.


The Brexit Act that has already been passed by the UK Parliament and received Royal Assemt incorporated all existing EU law into UK law. I assume this means that EU261 is now UK law and will continue past 2019.
 
vahancrazy
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:54 am

If Ryanair knows that they might not be able to legally operate a flight but they have good chances to do it, they are doing good:
they inform the customer of the potential problem. Period.

If the flight is canceled for such reason , it will be up to Ryanair whether to play nice or ignore the customer troubles / discomfort.
Companies with good customer Service would propose an alternative solution or full refund.
If customers do not think FR is such a company and still decide to use it, it is up to the customer to decide whether to throw its money and take the risk.
 
Draken21fx
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am

B777LRF wrote:
September 2018, eh? That'll be at the end of the summer season then, when Ryanair have run their dwindling crew so hard, they're flat out of hours. So let's hide the inevitable cancellations behind a veil of political protest.

That the RYR publicity machine actually have people fall for it, speaks equally for their talent and their gullible audience.


I think it is because airlines publish their schedule well in advance, hence in September 2018 most probably they will be announcing all winter/spring flights from/to the UK.

LJ wrote:
NO, this is exactly what the disclaimer prevents. The compensation rules do not apply in case of force majeure or when the customer has been notified x days in advance. The consequences of a Brexit will be known more than the x days in advance thus one can forget any compensation. Moreover by placing this disclaimer, Ryanair can argue that the customer is aware that the flight may not be operated. This will certainly play a role should a passenger try to sue Ryanair when they have to cancel the flight due to regulatory reasons.


This point is the one I am the most curious about, can a disclaimer be so legally binding? As an example - Qatar Airways starts selling flights to Sicily before they actually reach an agreement with the Italian government and then talks collapse. Can they just simply point at a disclaimer they might have used to waive all responsibility?
 
ei146
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:36 am

Draken21fx wrote:
This point is the one I am the most curious about, can a disclaimer be so legally binding? As an example - Qatar Airways starts selling flights to Sicily before they actually reach an agreement with the Italian government and then talks collapse. Can they just simply point at a disclaimer they might have used to waive all responsibility?


What choice do airlines have in the case of Brexit? Usually an agreement between states takes years to negotiate, sign, ratify, implement in national law until it finally comes into force. If they are very fast it takes 2 years, but usually 3 to 5, sometimes 10 or longer. Businesses usually have ample of time to adapt.
In the case of Brexit we are one year from Brexit now and the negotiators can't even agree on the basics. Businesses do not know what to plan with but need to make decisions now. So they guess and try to protect themselfs.
The other option would be to plan for a complete stop on the day of Brexit and to start to plan new flights when business conditions become clearer. Doing it that way there is a real risk that there is no service for some time after Brexit.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:24 am

Even under EC261, no compensation is due if the flight is cancelled more than 14 days in advance. Seems like a smart clause to include but if we get to March 15, 2019 with no deal at the very least in final approval stages, then I suppose there is very unlikely to be any deal and we will start seeing mass flight cancellations.

Are any TATL airlines looking for gate space at LGW and STN to be prepared to go back to Bermuda II?
 
Jomar777
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:30 am

More of a publicity stunner here. Even on a Hard Brexit scenario, people would still have to fly. If an airline cancels a flight due to any reason, will be subject not only to their T&C's but to legal arbitration and any government legislation in place both at departure and arrival points. I would either buy my ticket elsewhere (Ryanair would have to come up withdrawing the term if too many actually do this) or get a pretty savvy Travel Insurance (there will be plenty around since there will be money to be made also).
Speaking of Brexit - the Guardian is a pretty lame source since it is extremely PRO-REMAIN. Better rely on a more independent source.
Correct if I am wrong, but wasn't it the Guardian which also reported not long while ago that British Drivers would not be able to drive in the EU in the event of Hard Brexit because our Driving Licenses would not be recognized in the event of a lack of a general agreement???
How likely is that?? How likely is also that the EU and the UK would come to an agreement on flights whatever the terms of Brexit?
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:42 am

Jomar777 wrote:
More of a publicity stunner here. Even on a Hard Brexit scenario, people would still have to fly. If an airline cancels a flight due to any reason, will be subject not only to their T&C's but to legal arbitration and any government legislation in place both at departure and arrival points. I would either buy my ticket elsewhere (Ryanair would have to come up withdrawing the term if too many actually do this) or get a pretty savvy Travel Insurance (there will be plenty around since there will be money to be made also).
Speaking of Brexit - the Guardian is a pretty lame source since it is extremely PRO-REMAIN. Better rely on a more independent source.
Correct if I am wrong, but wasn't it the Guardian which also reported not long while ago that British Drivers would not be able to drive in the EU in the event of Hard Brexit because our Driving Licenses would not be recognized in the event of a lack of a general agreement???
How likely is that?? How likely is also that the EU and the UK would come to an agreement on flights whatever the terms of Brexit?


Ummmmm, it's pretty clear that without an agreement any flights will be up to the goodness of the hearts of the receiving countries. It is up to the UK government to be making these agreements. The EU is under no requirement to accept UK flights post Brexit. And if current legislation says an airline can cancel a flight more than 14 days in advance without penalty then that's what they can do.

The same applies to driver licenses. The EU will be under no obligation to accept UK driver licenses unless an agreement exists to recognize them.

Of course the same works the other way round.

And this is the huge problem. Something as simple as these obvious agreements still have not been done. It is up the the UK government to push for these agreements as they're the ones that have decided to leave. You don't get to leave the group flat and expect to have continued access without an explicit agreement. And your former flatmates don't have to agree to your demands.

Travel insurance is something else and you'd want to read your terms very carefully. As they may not cover flights that are cancelled before a certain time before travel.
 
sevenair
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:53 am

Oh no! No flights? I wonder how the 160 odd CountryBRS that aren't in the EU manage at all!

I love the a.net logic whereby the once villain of the world is now the hero. Just like you all did with Branson.

Oh the hilarity that the very person who hopes that the EU don't give us any deals is the one complaining about Brexit. He's crying on one hand that things might get difficult yet at the same time is willing things to be difficult.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
sevenair
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:54 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
More of a publicity stunner here. Even on a Hard Brexit scenario, people would still have to fly. If an airline cancels a flight due to any reason, will be subject not only to their T&C's but to legal arbitration and any government legislation in place both at departure and arrival points. I would either buy my ticket elsewhere (Ryanair would have to come up withdrawing the term if too many actually do this) or get a pretty savvy Travel Insurance (there will be plenty around since there will be money to be made also).
Speaking of Brexit - the Guardian is a pretty lame source since it is extremely PRO-REMAIN. Better rely on a more independent source.
Correct if I am wrong, but wasn't it the Guardian which also reported not long while ago that British Drivers would not be able to drive in the EU in the event of Hard Brexit because our Driving Licenses would not be recognized in the event of a lack of a general agreement???
How likely is that?? How likely is also that the EU and the UK would come to an agreement on flights whatever the terms of Brexit?


Ummmmm, it's pretty clear that without an agreement any flights will be up to the goodness of the hearts of the receiving countries. It is up to the UK government to be making these agreements. The EU is under no requirement to accept UK flights post Brexit. And if current legislation says an airline can cancel a flight more than 14 days in advance without penalty then that's what they can do.

The same applies to driver licenses. The EU will be under no obligation to accept UK driver licenses unless an agreement exists to recognize them.

Of course the same works the other way round.

And this is the huge problem. Something as simple as these obvious agreements still have not been done. It is up the the UK government to push for these agreements as they're the ones that have decided to leave. You don't get to leave the group flat and expect to have continued access without an explicit agreement. And your former flatmates don't have to agree to your demands.

Travel insurance is something else and you'd want to read your terms very carefully. As they may not cover flights that are cancelled before a certain time before travel.


I see. So Brits can drive in the US. Australians can drive in the UK yet the EU are going to stop us from driving there? Oh that's hillarious!
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
andymartin
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:00 am

Im not sure which of these 2 brexit hating, doom and gloom organizations I would believe the least, the Guardian or Ryanair.
Anyone who still uses Ryanair after last years mass cancellation debacle seriously needs a brain transplant.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:14 pm

sevenair wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
More of a publicity stunner here. Even on a Hard Brexit scenario, people would still have to fly. If an airline cancels a flight due to any reason, will be subject not only to their T&C's but to legal arbitration and any government legislation in place both at departure and arrival points. I would either buy my ticket elsewhere (Ryanair would have to come up withdrawing the term if too many actually do this) or get a pretty savvy Travel Insurance (there will be plenty around since there will be money to be made also).
Speaking of Brexit - the Guardian is a pretty lame source since it is extremely PRO-REMAIN. Better rely on a more independent source.
Correct if I am wrong, but wasn't it the Guardian which also reported not long while ago that British Drivers would not be able to drive in the EU in the event of Hard Brexit because our Driving Licenses would not be recognized in the event of a lack of a general agreement???
How likely is that?? How likely is also that the EU and the UK would come to an agreement on flights whatever the terms of Brexit?


Ummmmm, it's pretty clear that without an agreement any flights will be up to the goodness of the hearts of the receiving countries. It is up to the UK government to be making these agreements. The EU is under no requirement to accept UK flights post Brexit. And if current legislation says an airline can cancel a flight more than 14 days in advance without penalty then that's what they can do.

The same applies to driver licenses. The EU will be under no obligation to accept UK driver licenses unless an agreement exists to recognize them.

Of course the same works the other way round.

And this is the huge problem. Something as simple as these obvious agreements still have not been done. It is up the the UK government to push for these agreements as they're the ones that have decided to leave. You don't get to leave the group flat and expect to have continued access without an explicit agreement. And your former flatmates don't have to agree to your demands.

Travel insurance is something else and you'd want to read your terms very carefully. As they may not cover flights that are cancelled before a certain time before travel.


I see. So Brits can drive in the US. Australians can drive in the UK yet the EU are going to stop us from driving there? Oh that's hillarious!


You're intentionally ignoring the important point. Which is that without an agreement they are under no obligation to do so. At which point any acceptance is totally up in the air. Without an agreement it is a very real risk. Not a certainty. So stop putting words in my mouth.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:14 pm

sevenair wrote:

I see. So Brits can drive in the US. Australians can drive in the UK yet the EU are going to stop us from driving there? Oh that's hillarious!


Brits can drive in the US because the US & UK have mutual recognition of licences. This is something that's been negotiated between the UK & US . I expect UK/EU will sort something similar out, but obviously the sooner the new arrangements are known the better. One option is for the UK to sign the Vienna Convention, which I believe the UK Department of Transport is planning for. Though it may require changes to signs and other rules (for example the requirement to carry the V5 registration in the vehicle)

Worst case scenario, You'd fall back on the international driving permit. Not a big issue for private motorists - they cost £5 from the Post Office

However no so good with IDPs is that there are apparently some severe restrictions on permits for Commercial Truck/Bus drivers. This could mean loads from EU having to be handed over to a local haulier at the channel ports and vice versa for UK->EU shipments.
 
ei146
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:14 pm

sevenair wrote:
I see. So Brits can drive in the US. Australians can drive in the UK yet the EU are going to stop us from driving there? Oh that's hillarious!


You still don't have the slightest imagination of the scale of the problem. Your drivers license might be your smallest issue. As ridiculous as it may sound: You may not be permitted to enter the EU after Brexit and I may not be permitted to go to UK. Each country can decide which foreigners they allow to enter for what purpose and what the entry conditions are. In the worst case the border is closed after Brexit. Don't say this can't happen, stranger things happened before.
And even if you can come:
Did you apply for your Schengen-visa already? You know it is difficult to get if you come from one of these dubious countries. And all the paperwork and background checks take time. :smile:
Will you be allowed to take your car with you? How about a technical check and a certificate at the border to make sure it meets European standards. And a customs fee of course.
And how do you bring it over the channel? Will the ferries still be allowed to call at continental ports?
Can the tunnel still operate without an agreement on railway border crossings?
How do you pay? Will the Pound still be exchangable against the Euro?
Can money still be transfered?
All these things are no matters of course, they are carefully sorted out between states in complex treaties. So we should better get some agreements in place and stop wasting more time.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:48 pm

Just keep in mind that Brexit was an irrational appeal to certain homo sapiens brain circuits:

The Irish border will be solved with creativity and imagination (and some of that fairy dust)

Goods will meet certain British standards which again with imagination and creativity will at the same time be OK with the EU (an even bigger amount of fairy dust)

Great Britain's people who want to visit and live in Europe will magically be able to do so, access medical care, receive their pensions all without the bureaucracy having done the negotiations necessary to allow it to happen (again that infuriating fairy dust) And while all GBs can go to Europe, GB can decide based on race and language which Europeans can come to GB.

Somehow Financial Services will not need the fairy dust, because they are inherently imbued with their own version of alchemy which will always be acceptable to the EU.

Lest you think this is just prejudice, show me the tens of thousands of capable people who are working to make all this happen. There are not even Terracotta Warriors by the hundreds. Nothing. Just fairy dust.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 6984
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:05 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
More of a publicity stunner here. Even on a Hard Brexit scenario, people would still have to fly. If an airline cancels a flight due to any reason, will be subject not only to their T&C's but to legal arbitration and any government legislation in place both at departure and arrival points. I would either buy my ticket elsewhere (Ryanair would have to come up withdrawing the term if too many actually do this) or get a pretty savvy Travel Insurance (there will be plenty around since there will be money to be made also).
Speaking of Brexit - the Guardian is a pretty lame source since it is extremely PRO-REMAIN. Better rely on a more independent source.
Correct if I am wrong, but wasn't it the Guardian which also reported not long while ago that British Drivers would not be able to drive in the EU in the event of Hard Brexit because our Driving Licenses would not be recognized in the event of a lack of a general agreement???
How likely is that?? How likely is also that the EU and the UK would come to an agreement on flights whatever the terms of Brexit?


The UK or rather the English press is split into pro remain and pro Brexit mouthpieces and nothing in between. If you read The Telegraph, a campaigner for Brexit, you will read nothing positive about remaining and nothing negative about leaving. If you read The Guardian you get the view from the remain side. If you can point me to one English newspaper with an independent view, I like to know it. Of course you do not like the Guardian, it opposes your view. If you look outside of England over to Scotland for example, you hardly find a newspaper promoting Brexit.

The point were the EU view and the UK view are diametrical opposed. The EU, and before that the ECC, had put up the ground rules used from the beginning, the four freedoms, and nobody, be it a full member or associated, like Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein, or in its way Switzerland got to pick and choose.
That is exactly what the UK wants, pick and choose. They like free movement of goods, free movement of services, free movement of capital perhaps, but want to regulate free movement of citizen of EU/EEA member states. Especially now, when the UK walks out, the EU does not want to allow the UK to pick and choose.
 
Draken21fx
Topic Author
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:38 am

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:53 pm

Guys all points made are valid but we are slipping into the the Non-Aviation thread. Could be please keep it Ryanair orientated rather than discussing the + and - of Brexit?
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2082
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:55 pm

Draken21fx wrote:
Guys all points made are valid but we are slipping into the the Non-Aviation thread. Could be please keep it Ryanair orientated rather than discussing the + and - of Brexit?


to Summarise we have discussed the following consequences for Ryaniar from Brexit in these discussions

Negatives
- complexities and changes to company ownership
- complexity of legal structures and domicile
- uncertainty of route permissions post Brexit
- uncertainty over any transition period
- increased costs which will hinder profits or increase prices
- unknown position on EU27 workers within UK, or UK workers within EU27 post Brexit
- Legal protections and disclaimers to help protect Ryanair post Brexit
- Possible decrease in demand to/from UK dependent upon UK Visa/entry requirements post Brexit

Positives
- increased demand for fairy dust ;)
- seriously, nothing positive for Ryanair in this so far, unless I have missed something?
 
jimbobjoe
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:04 pm

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:36 am

Draken21fx wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
This point is the one I am the most curious about, can a disclaimer be so legally binding? As an example - Qatar Airways starts selling flights to Sicily before they actually reach an agreement with the Italian government and then talks collapse. Can they just simply point at a disclaimer they might have used to waive all responsibility?


What do you meany by "legally binding" and "waive all responsibility?"

In regards to the second, the disclaimer helps the airline in regards to the contract for carriage.

A person buying a ticket with that disclaimer should not be successful in court if they tried to sue the airline later saying "I bought a ticket on QR to Sicily and I made hotel reservations and scheduled business meetings and turns out QR didn't have the rights in place and knew there was a chance they might not be able to fly me but sold me a ticket anyway. I lost money due to QR's fraud." QR can turn around and say "no no, we warned them this could happen. We refunded their ticket once we knew we couldn't operate the route. But we don't owe for the other stuff."

Maybe QR, depending on when they find out, may have some reasonable liability/responsibility to help the person get booked on another carrier (like if they find out only a day in advance they can't fly. The person never had the chance to find out themselves to make alternative arrangements (you get within a day of the flight and hear nothing, it's not unreasonable to assume that they got their things sorted.)) But I'm speculating there.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:06 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
More of a publicity stunner here. Even on a Hard Brexit scenario, people would still have to fly. If an airline cancels a flight due to any reason, will be subject not only to their T&C's but to legal arbitration and any government legislation in place both at departure and arrival points. I would either buy my ticket elsewhere (Ryanair would have to come up withdrawing the term if too many actually do this) or get a pretty savvy Travel Insurance (there will be plenty around since there will be money to be made also).
Speaking of Brexit - the Guardian is a pretty lame source since it is extremely PRO-REMAIN. Better rely on a more independent source.
Correct if I am wrong, but wasn't it the Guardian which also reported not long while ago that British Drivers would not be able to drive in the EU in the event of Hard Brexit because our Driving Licenses would not be recognized in the event of a lack of a general agreement???
How likely is that?? How likely is also that the EU and the UK would come to an agreement on flights whatever the terms of Brexit?


Ummmmm, it's pretty clear that without an agreement any flights will be up to the goodness of the hearts of the receiving countries. It is up to the UK government to be making these agreements. The EU is under no requirement to accept UK flights post Brexit. And if current legislation says an airline can cancel a flight more than 14 days in advance without penalty then that's what they can do.

The same applies to driver licenses. The EU will be under no obligation to accept UK driver licenses unless an agreement exists to recognize them.

Of course the same works the other way round.

And this is the huge problem. Something as simple as these obvious agreements still have not been done. It is up the the UK government to push for these agreements as they're the ones that have decided to leave. You don't get to leave the group flat and expect to have continued access without an explicit agreement. And your former flatmates don't have to agree to your demands.

Travel insurance is something else and you'd want to read your terms very carefully. As they may not cover flights that are cancelled before a certain time before travel.


Although It might sound political - which is not the case of this site - I really must point out that there's an enormous mistake in thinking that it is all for UK to do and lose on Brexit. EU does have to push for agreements too you know? They need the UK market and usually being tough in one area might bring issues on others like imports. We seem to have an inferiority complex when dealing with Brexit as if we always have to look up to the might EU.

The UK will still have a formidable economy and LHR, for example, will still be a very important Hub.

Coming back to aviation, it would be simply impossible for some sort of agreement not be struck The UK is not a small country and have ties already with many in the world which the EU will want to exploit.

BOTH sides will have to work on deals on aviation, motoring et all but to simply imagine that flights might be cancelled and that the "mightily EU" will isolate UK is simply inaccurate to say the least.

As for your comment on Travel Insurance, that goes without saying even today. Always check the small print and ensure you cover on all areas. One very close call was last years year's AZ's situation which, Brexit or not, would leave loads of people with no flights and no cash...
 
Jomar777
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:17 am

sevenair wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
More of a publicity stunner here. Even on a Hard Brexit scenario, people would still have to fly. If an airline cancels a flight due to any reason, will be subject not only to their T&C's but to legal arbitration and any government legislation in place both at departure and arrival points. I would either buy my ticket elsewhere (Ryanair would have to come up withdrawing the term if too many actually do this) or get a pretty savvy Travel Insurance (there will be plenty around since there will be money to be made also).
Speaking of Brexit - the Guardian is a pretty lame source since it is extremely PRO-REMAIN. Better rely on a more independent source.
Correct if I am wrong, but wasn't it the Guardian which also reported not long while ago that British Drivers would not be able to drive in the EU in the event of Hard Brexit because our Driving Licenses would not be recognized in the event of a lack of a general agreement???
How likely is that?? How likely is also that the EU and the UK would come to an agreement on flights whatever the terms of Brexit?


Ummmmm, it's pretty clear that without an agreement any flights will be up to the goodness of the hearts of the receiving countries. It is up to the UK government to be making these agreements. The EU is under no requirement to accept UK flights post Brexit. And if current legislation says an airline can cancel a flight more than 14 days in advance without penalty then that's what they can do.

The same applies to driver licenses. The EU will be under no obligation to accept UK driver licenses unless an agreement exists to recognize them.

Of course the same works the other way round.

And this is the huge problem. Something as simple as these obvious agreements still have not been done. It is up the the UK government to push for these agreements as they're the ones that have decided to leave. You don't get to leave the group flat and expect to have continued access without an explicit agreement. And your former flatmates don't have to agree to your demands.

Travel insurance is something else and you'd want to read your terms very carefully. As they may not cover flights that are cancelled before a certain time before travel.


I see. So Brits can drive in the US. Australians can drive in the UK yet the EU are going to stop us from driving there? Oh that's hillarious!


Agree 100%. As if suddenly we can drive everywhere in the world (safety permitting) BUT EU. WAIT!! There's more - if we can't drive in the EU, that would mean that all those lorries that come from Poland, Spain, Germany, etc., not being able to come to make deliveries here... The disruption it would cause...

Dear all:Rest assured. EVEN with a HARD BREXIT, there WILL be some sort of agreement so that flights and road will not be disrupted.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:20 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
sevenair wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

Ummmmm, it's pretty clear that without an agreement any flights will be up to the goodness of the hearts of the receiving countries. It is up to the UK government to be making these agreements. The EU is under no requirement to accept UK flights post Brexit. And if current legislation says an airline can cancel a flight more than 14 days in advance without penalty then that's what they can do.

The same applies to driver licenses. The EU will be under no obligation to accept UK driver licenses unless an agreement exists to recognize them.

Of course the same works the other way round.

And this is the huge problem. Something as simple as these obvious agreements still have not been done. It is up the the UK government to push for these agreements as they're the ones that have decided to leave. You don't get to leave the group flat and expect to have continued access without an explicit agreement. And your former flatmates don't have to agree to your demands.

Travel insurance is something else and you'd want to read your terms very carefully. As they may not cover flights that are cancelled before a certain time before travel.


I see. So Brits can drive in the US. Australians can drive in the UK yet the EU are going to stop us from driving there? Oh that's hillarious!


You're intentionally ignoring the important point. Which is that without an agreement they are under no obligation to do so. At which point any acceptance is totally up in the air. Without an agreement it is a very real risk. Not a certainty. So stop putting words in my mouth.


You are actually missing the point yourself I am afraid. The DISRUPTION this would cause on both sides of the Channel would be unheard of. Added to the fact that it would NOT be only UK drivers and flights being cancelled but ALSO EU flights and drivers too...

Are you really sure there's anyone on either side of the negotiation table which would envisage such disaster?

Mark my words: IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Agreements will be set.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2082
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:30 am

jimbobjoe wrote:
Maybe QR, depending on when they find out, may have some reasonable liability/responsibility to help the person get booked on another carrier


The problem here though, is in the (hopefully unlikely) event of no EU27/UK aviation deal, then it would not only be FR that cannot fly the route, it would be everyone, so no alternatives would be possible.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:43 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
More of a publicity stunner here. Even on a Hard Brexit scenario, people would still have to fly. If an airline cancels a flight due to any reason, will be subject not only to their T&C's but to legal arbitration and any government legislation in place both at departure and arrival points. I would either buy my ticket elsewhere (Ryanair would have to come up withdrawing the term if too many actually do this) or get a pretty savvy Travel Insurance (there will be plenty around since there will be money to be made also).
Speaking of Brexit - the Guardian is a pretty lame source since it is extremely PRO-REMAIN. Better rely on a more independent source.
Correct if I am wrong, but wasn't it the Guardian which also reported not long while ago that British Drivers would not be able to drive in the EU in the event of Hard Brexit because our Driving Licenses would not be recognized in the event of a lack of a general agreement???
How likely is that?? How likely is also that the EU and the UK would come to an agreement on flights whatever the terms of Brexit?


The UK or rather the English press is split into pro remain and pro Brexit mouthpieces and nothing in between. If you read The Telegraph, a campaigner for Brexit, you will read nothing positive about remaining and nothing negative about leaving. If you read The Guardian you get the view from the remain side. If you can point me to one English newspaper with an independent view, I like to know it. Of course you do not like the Guardian, it opposes your view. If you look outside of England over to Scotland for example, you hardly find a newspaper promoting Brexit.

The point were the EU view and the UK view are diametrical opposed. The EU, and before that the ECC, had put up the ground rules used from the beginning, the four freedoms, and nobody, be it a full member or associated, like Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein, or in its way Switzerland got to pick and choose.
That is exactly what the UK wants, pick and choose. They like free movement of goods, free movement of services, free movement of capital perhaps, but want to regulate free movement of citizen of EU/EEA member states. Especially now, when the UK walks out, the EU does not want to allow the UK to pick and choose.


All your arguments are valid and we could go on and on talking about this. It would be a great chat I am sure. However, it is just natural that the UK wants as much and the EU wants to give it as little. What will happen is that we may end up somewhere in the middle with a shift towards the best negotiator.

Interestingly, on transport, more specific on aviation, there's so far no points of contention. That's why I feel an agreement is to be struck on this area. It is simply a low priority at present since the agreement will depend on what has been agreed on other areas like free movement of goods and people. On a Hard Brexit Scenario, expect the EU and the UK to mirror the US and other non-EU Countries like China, Brazil, Mexico, etc.In other words, some sort of agreement will happen.

As for balanced news on Brexit, I suggest you to stick to Reuters mainly and BBC (although I would shy away from Laura Kuenssberg - too partial and superficial - but Pienaar is great). I also would suggest you to seeking for reliable non-EU/UK Press like CNN but avoid editors that are too prone to push one way or another.

I despise the Guardian because they do not respect the vote - not because of my views. I do not follow the lines of the Telegraph either.

My overall position is that, regardless of our pervious leanings, a Democratic Majority has spoken. We just have to carry on and make the best of it.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8294
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:57 am

A little bit of small print ain’t much. EasyJet are moving their entire fleet from the G- reg to the OE- reg, that’s a pretty big step!
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 6984
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Ryanair protecting itself from a hard Brexit

Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:18 am

Jomar777 wrote:

Although It might sound political - which is not the case of this site - I really must point out that there's an enormous mistake in thinking that it is all for UK to do and lose on Brexit. EU does have to push for agreements too you know? They need the UK market and usually being tough in one area might bring issues on others like imports. We seem to have an inferiority complex when dealing with Brexit as if we always have to look up to the might EU.

The UK will still have a formidable economy and LHR, for example, will still be a very important Hub.


That is an argument one does hear from the UK side. But in this case the size and the importance of the UK market for the EU, about 10%, is vastly overrated and the importance of the EU market for the UK, about 50% is vastly underrated. The UK will have to accept that the EU will not overthrow its founding principles for the UK, because that is what the UK is asking of the EU. The UK alone is not a formidable economy. It is very big on services, especially banking and that can well go down the drain in a hard Brexit.
Just a look at GDP numbers 2017 from the IMF. EU 19,362,129 million USD, Germany 3,651,871, France 2,574,807, UK 2,565,051 about 13 % of the EU.

In regards to airlines and travel, yes there should not be big problems to come to an agreement, but is there time? It is one year left until the UK leaves. And it is not only the big bad EU. The USA seems to be offering less of a deal in a bilateral, than the EU has with the USA, with offering only the standard variation the USA has with most other countries.
There is much traffic flowing from Europe through the UK to the USA and that will be influenced by a UK USA bilateral. Even when the EU and the UK agree on UK airlines being able to be owned by EU companies and vice versa and perhaps capotage in the agreement between the UK and EU, what will the USA accept? So we can have traffic flows and ownership regulation that could depend on finishing a new UK USA bilateral.
The biggest problem is the uncertainty about the rules when everything changes in a years time.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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