Link/Source: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/delt ... nance.html


"U.S. carrier Delta Air Lines is picking up business on routes from Germany to the United States following the collapse of Air Berlin, executives said on Wednesday."

"The capacity that was taken out by Air Berlin hasn't been filled entirely," Germany, Switzerland and Austria sales manager Thomas Brandt told Reuters at the ITB travel fair in Berlin."

"Brandt said load factors, a measure of how full planes are, had been "fantastic" and that Delta had upped the amount of flying it does from Düsseldorf, an Air Berlin hub, as a result."

Aside from the United States and Abu Dhabi (for small period of time) were else did the AB A330s fly to.

Not to rain on DL's parade, but I'm sure every carrier flying from Germany could say this.

I clicked the link but it was blocked by Norton Anti-Virus. At any rate, how is DL getting a boost? Are they flying a bigger sized plane from ATL to DUS or are they adding a flight out of DTW or JFK?

LHUSA wrote:

Not to rain on DL's parade, but I'm sure every carrier flying from Germany could say this.

the OP never stated that it was solely DL's boost.

DL is never shy about putting out articles that highlight them, when like others are already saying all carriers are most likely seeing a boost. This isn't specific to DL.

Not sure if this is clever marketing or just a desperate attempt for more attention?

jumbojet wrote:

I clicked the link but it was blocked by Norton Anti-Virus. At any rate, how is DL getting a boost? Are they flying a bigger sized plane from ATL to DUS or are they adding a flight out of DTW or JFK?

Load factors and higher average fares would be two ways, even without adding flights or upgauging.

In terms of the market players there, would the likes of LH(being the local carrier) and AA (former OneWorld partner) take a greater portion of the former AB traffic than DL?

jumbojet wrote:

Are they flying a bigger sized plane from ATL to DUS or are they adding a flight out of DTW or JFK?

Yes, the article explains that DL kept a larger plane than planned on DUS-ATL during the winter, and that the seasonal JFK-TXL will start a few weeks earlier.

Good now it can make DTW-MUC year round and add DTW-DUS don't want to lose that extra business because they didn't have enough capacity.

ABpositive wrote:

In terms of the market players there, would the likes of LH(being the local carrier) and AA (former OneWorld partner) take a greater portion of the former AB traffic than DL?

And UA, the only US airline to fly nonstop to Berlin.

Boost that stock value!

Not sure on YOY frequency, but this winter ATL-DUS was 763 until Jan 9th, when the 764 was added on some days. However the 763 was still the majority of flights. ATL-DUS was 6x weekly for most of the winter, with some holiday trimming and just one week with daily flights. Not exactly a large increase in service.

LH and UA were the real winners with AB's demise.

TWA772LR wrote:

ABpositive wrote:

In terms of the market players there, would the likes of LH(being the local carrier) and AA (former OneWorld partner) take a greater portion of the former AB traffic than DL?

And UA, the only US airline to fly nonstop to Berlin.

Isn't DL a US airline?

twicearound wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

ABpositive wrote:

In terms of the market players there, would the likes of LH(being the local carrier) and AA (former OneWorld partner) take a greater portion of the former AB traffic than DL?

And UA, the only US airline to fly nonstop to Berlin.

Isn't DL a US airline?

I stand corrected. Although wiki shows DLs service is only seasonal.

Why doesn’t Delta just set up a hub in DUS and operate ex AB routes? It would be just like the Pan AM days!

[quote="Aside from the United States and Abu Dhabi (for small period of time) were else did the AB A330s fly to.[/quote]


Aside from the US Air Berlin flew mainly to the Caribbean: Cuba (HAV/VRA), Barbados, Cancun, Montego Bay, DomRep (POP/PUJ) to name a few. Short before the shutdown they announced flights to Toronto.

Indeed, DL is not alone here, every carrier flying into Germany is benefitting from fuller planes, with LH having benefitted most by far.
Now, if DL were announcing new destinations in Germany as a consequence, it would be newsworthy. But this is just another <insert airline here> has higher loads due to the gap left behind by AB.

klm617 wrote:

Good now it can make DTW-MUC year round and add DTW-DUS don't want to lose that extra business because they didn't have enough capacity.

Right now would be a good time to get DUS going on a 76W, it’s moderately high yielding and has pax to fill the front. The route would have to start as summer seasonal though.

flymco753 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Good now it can make DTW-MUC year round and add DTW-DUS don't want to lose that extra business because they didn't have enough capacity.

Right now would be a good time to get DUS going on a 76W, it’s moderately high yielding and has pax to fill the front. The route would have to start as summer seasonal though.

I agree good time to start it and like you say there is a lot of up front customers because of the manufacturing base in the Ruhr valley.

flydude380 wrote:

Why doesn’t Delta just set up a hub in DUS and operate ex AB routes? It would be just like the Pan AM days!

Perhaps because they have exactly such operation 200 kms down the road . . .

Right now would be a good time to get DUS going on a 76W, it’s moderately high yielding and has pax to fill the front. The route would have to start as summer seasonal though.

Agree and with UA being increasingly hesitant on HAM, that could be another target.

Perhaps because they have exactly such operation 200 kms down the road . . .

by that logic, why should anyone fly to IAD or PHL if they already fly to NYC? OK, trasnportation between FRA and DUS is vastly better than between the equivalent US cities, but DUS is still an important catchment area in its own right - and one where there is still a small window of opportunity before EW expands and closes it.

r2rho wrote:

Right now would be a good time to get DUS going on a 76W, it’s moderately high yielding and has pax to fill the front. The route would have to start as summer seasonal though.

Agree and with UA being increasingly hesitant on HAM, that could be another target.

Perhaps because they have exactly such operation 200 kms down the road . . .

by that logic, why should anyone fly to IAD or PHL if they already fly to NYC? OK, trasnportation between FRA and DUS is vastly better than between the equivalent US cities, but DUS is still an important catchment area in its own right - and one where there is still a small window of opportunity before EW expands and closes it.

I think he meant AMS, which is a big DL base inherited from the Northwest era.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

DL is never shy about putting out articles that highlight them, when like others are already saying all carriers are most likely seeing a boost. This isn't specific to DL.

Not sure if this is clever marketing or just a desperate attempt for more attention?

Why would DL not use a recent event about a competitor to talk about a positive gain they have experienced? Germany is a Star hub country for UA, so they've always been covered by LH. Air Berlin was AAs partner... that leaves you with DL logically getting an uptick in business. Hence, their statement.

I think he meant AMS, which is a big DL base inherited from the Northwest era.

That would be an even worse example, as transportation options between AMS and Düsseldorf are not good and they are, again, completely different catchment areas.

airzona11 wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

DL is never shy about putting out articles that highlight them, when like others are already saying all carriers are most likely seeing a boost. This isn't specific to DL.

Not sure if this is clever marketing or just a desperate attempt for more attention?

Why would DL not use a recent event about a competitor to talk about a positive gain they have experienced? Germany is a Star hub country for UA, so they've always been covered by LH. Air Berlin was AAs partner... that leaves you with DL logically getting an uptick in business. Hence, their statement.

Every airline that offers flights to any country that AirBerlin served are most likely seeing an uptick in business. Are any of them seeing the need to publish press releases about it? If they have I haven't seen it.

DL is the US equivalent to Akbar Al Baker in the sense that they will use any event - positive or negative - to try and insert their name and focus the attention back on them.

Arniepie wrote:

I think he meant AMS, which is a big DL base inherited from the Northwest era.

Obviously . . .

clrd4t8koff wrote:

airzona11 wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

DL is never shy about putting out articles that highlight them, when like others are already saying all carriers are most likely seeing a boost. This isn't specific to DL.

Not sure if this is clever marketing or just a desperate attempt for more attention?

Why would DL not use a recent event about a competitor to talk about a positive gain they have experienced? Germany is a Star hub country for UA, so they've always been covered by LH. Air Berlin was AAs partner... that leaves you with DL logically getting an uptick in business. Hence, their statement.

Every airline that offers flights to any country that AirBerlin served are most likely seeing an uptick in business. Are any of them seeing the need to publish press releases about it? If they have I haven't seen it.

DL is the US equivalent to Akbar Al Baker in the sense that they will use any event - positive or negative - to try and insert their name and focus the attention back on them.

There was no "press release" by DL. It was just a DL rep making some comments to a Reuters reporter at a travel fair in Berlin. Let's stick to the facts, shall we?

michman wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

airzona11 wrote:

Why would DL not use a recent event about a competitor to talk about a positive gain they have experienced? Germany is a Star hub country for UA, so they've always been covered by LH. Air Berlin was AAs partner... that leaves you with DL logically getting an uptick in business. Hence, their statement.

Every airline that offers flights to any country that AirBerlin served are most likely seeing an uptick in business. Are any of them seeing the need to publish press releases about it? If they have I haven't seen it.

DL is the US equivalent to Akbar Al Baker in the sense that they will use any event - positive or negative - to try and insert their name and focus the attention back on them.

There was no "press release" by DL. It was just a DL rep making some comments to a Reuters reporter at a travel fair in Berlin. Let's stick to the facts, shall we?

Thank you for reiterating this.

r2rho wrote:

HAM, that could be another target.

It has always baffled me why HAM's only nonstop service to the U.S. is a 757 daily to EWR (not even sure it is year-long or only seasonal). Seems like too little. Hamburg is Germany's second city and the third largest port of call in Europe. It is a media and publishing hub, in addition to being a key place for foreign trade. The Hamburg city-state and its surroundings are very prosperous. In the past EK had fifth-freedom service to JFK from HAM on the A345, but sadly that did not last. Seems like there should be some more demand for nonstop trans-Atlantic travel to and from HAM. Oh well.

EddieDude wrote:

r2rho wrote:

HAM, that could be another target.

It has always baffled me why HAM's only nonstop service to the U.S. is a 757 daily to EWR (not even sure it is year-long or only seasonal). Seems like too little. Hamburg is Germany's second city and the third largest port of call in Europe. It is a media and publishing hub, in addition to being a key place for foreign trade. The Hamburg city-state and its surroundings are very prosperous. In the past EK had fifth-freedom service to JFK from HAM on the A345, but sadly that did not last. Seems like there should be some more demand for nonstop trans-Atlantic travel to and from HAM. Oh well.

If Delta launches another German City it has to be Hamburg. Which other city should they fly to, because they already serve all other bigger cities in Germany. Just not Hamburg, its a pity.
They used to fly to Hamburg until 2000 from the late 80s with up to two daily flights, to ATL and JFK. Its been canceled together with a series of destinations in Europe after the SkyTeam foundation. Most of these routes/destinations came back one day, but their germany map seems to have a missing part in the north.

ATL-HAM would work good with a daily 767 in summer, 5 weekly flights in winter. Traffic and tourism in both directions (USA - HAM) rose a lot in the last 20 years. A lot of business traffic between HAM and ATL, but also Texas, Alabama (Airbus) etc. There is also a big potential from HAM to Florida, where ATL is a perfect place to connect. Many rich Hamburgers have a second home in Florida where they fly to several times a year. Those people do not think about flying Economy.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

airzona11 wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

DL is never shy about putting out articles that highlight them, when like others are already saying all carriers are most likely seeing a boost. This isn't specific to DL.

Not sure if this is clever marketing or just a desperate attempt for more attention?

Why would DL not use a recent event about a competitor to talk about a positive gain they have experienced? Germany is a Star hub country for UA, so they've always been covered by LH. Air Berlin was AAs partner... that leaves you with DL logically getting an uptick in business. Hence, their statement.

Every airline that offers flights to any country that AirBerlin served are most likely seeing an uptick in business. Are any of them seeing the need to publish press releases about it? If they have I haven't seen it.

DL is the US equivalent to Akbar Al Baker in the sense that they will use any event - positive or negative - to try and insert their name and focus the attention back on them.

5 bucks says you can't show us this "Delta press release" on the topic...bet?

michman wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

airzona11 wrote:

Why would DL not use a recent event about a competitor to talk about a positive gain they have experienced? Germany is a Star hub country for UA, so they've always been covered by LH. Air Berlin was AAs partner... that leaves you with DL logically getting an uptick in business. Hence, their statement.

Every airline that offers flights to any country that AirBerlin served are most likely seeing an uptick in business. Are any of them seeing the need to publish press releases about it? If they have I haven't seen it.

DL is the US equivalent to Akbar Al Baker in the sense that they will use any event - positive or negative - to try and insert their name and focus the attention back on them.

There was no "press release" by DL. It was just a DL rep making some comments to a Reuters reporter at a travel fair in Berlin. Let's stick to the facts, shall we?

Thank you.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

DL is never shy about putting out articles that highlight them, when like others are already saying all carriers are most likely seeing a boost. This isn't specific to DL.

Not sure if this is clever marketing or just a desperate attempt for more attention?

Seriously? Delta didn't put out this article. I expect it was a question asked at the event, or even stated by DL at the event because it was an event IN GERMANY, and then an article published. Delta isn't desperate for the attention, maybe you are?

flymco753 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Good now it can make DTW-MUC year round and add DTW-DUS don't want to lose that extra business because they didn't have enough capacity.

Right now would be a good time to get DUS going on a 76W, it’s moderately high yielding and has pax to fill the front. The route would have to start as summer seasonal though.

They don't even fly JFK-DUS. My guess is if they add any new destination from there JFK will be first.

evank516 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Good now it can make DTW-MUC year round and add DTW-DUS don't want to lose that extra business because they didn't have enough capacity.

Right now would be a good time to get DUS going on a 76W, it’s moderately high yielding and has pax to fill the front. The route would have to start as summer seasonal though.

They don't even fly JFK-DUS. My guess is if they add any new destination from there JFK will be first.

You mean like they did when they added DTW-MUC

DLHAM wrote:

EddieDude wrote:

r2rho wrote:

HAM, that could be another target.

It has always baffled me why HAM's only nonstop service to the U.S. is a 757 daily to EWR (not even sure it is year-long or only seasonal). Seems like too little. Hamburg is Germany's second city and the third largest port of call in Europe. It is a media and publishing hub, in addition to being a key place for foreign trade. The Hamburg city-state and its surroundings are very prosperous. In the past EK had fifth-freedom service to JFK from HAM on the A345, but sadly that did not last. Seems like there should be some more demand for nonstop trans-Atlantic travel to and from HAM. Oh well.

If Delta launches another German City it has to be Hamburg. Which other city should they fly to, because they already serve all other bigger cities in Germany. Just not Hamburg, its a pity.
They used to fly to Hamburg until 2000 from the late 80s with up to two daily flights, to ATL and JFK. Its been canceled together with a series of destinations in Europe after the SkyTeam foundation. Most of these routes/destinations came back one day, but their germany map seems to have a missing part in the north.

ATL-HAM would work good with a daily 767 in summer, 5 weekly flights in winter. Traffic and tourism in both directions (USA - HAM) rose a lot in the last 20 years. A lot of business traffic between HAM and ATL, but also Texas, Alabama (Airbus) etc. There is also a big potential from HAM to Florida, where ATL is a perfect place to connect. Many rich Hamburgers have a second home in Florida where they fly to several times a year. Those people do not think about flying Economy.

The problem with that might be that HAM is very close in proximity to AMS so for the most part people would drive from Hamburg to Amsterdam to get cheaper fares.

klm617 wrote:

DLHAM wrote:

EddieDude wrote:

It has always baffled me why HAM's only nonstop service to the U.S. is a 757 daily to EWR (not even sure it is year-long or only seasonal). Seems like too little. Hamburg is Germany's second city and the third largest port of call in Europe. It is a media and publishing hub, in addition to being a key place for foreign trade. The Hamburg city-state and its surroundings are very prosperous. In the past EK had fifth-freedom service to JFK from HAM on the A345, but sadly that did not last. Seems like there should be some more demand for nonstop trans-Atlantic travel to and from HAM. Oh well.

If Delta launches another German City it has to be Hamburg. Which other city should they fly to, because they already serve all other bigger cities in Germany. Just not Hamburg, its a pity.
They used to fly to Hamburg until 2000 from the late 80s with up to two daily flights, to ATL and JFK. Its been canceled together with a series of destinations in Europe after the SkyTeam foundation. Most of these routes/destinations came back one day, but their germany map seems to have a missing part in the north.

ATL-HAM would work good with a daily 767 in summer, 5 weekly flights in winter. Traffic and tourism in both directions (USA - HAM) rose a lot in the last 20 years. A lot of business traffic between HAM and ATL, but also Texas, Alabama (Airbus) etc. There is also a big potential from HAM to Florida, where ATL is a perfect place to connect. Many rich Hamburgers have a second home in Florida where they fly to several times a year. Those people do not think about flying Economy.

The problem with that might be that HAM is very close in proximity to AMS so for the most part people would drive from Hamburg to Amsterdam to get cheaper fares.

DUS is much closer to AMS, just 179km vs 380km from HAM. Would be a 7 hour drive at least from Hamburg. But you can easily get on a KLM flight and connect to DL in AMS of course. But why should you if the demand is there for a nonstop.

My hope will never die to see DL back in HAM (see my Nickname).

EddieDude wrote:

It has always baffled me why HAM's only nonstop service to the U.S. is a 757 daily to EWR (not even sure it is year-long or only seasonal). Seems like too little.

Thats the problem. No other airline dared to fly HAM-US in the recent years, so United has Hamburg to themselves. They can send a small 757 with very low operating cost to sell those few seats at a hefty premium. I think they do it the same way with the other 757 markets that have no competition.

Emirates used to fly HAM-JFK ten years ago, for around 3 years. Continental was unimpressed and continued their HAM-EWR operation. Passenger numbers were still good, although many thought CO would pull out after EK enters the competition. The EK flight developed slowly (pure O&D!, was announced only 4/5 months in advance). Grew from as much as 12 passengers on the 777-300 that one day to an average of 120-150 Hamburg originating passengers to JFK, that number of course was always limited by transit passengers from Dubai. This shows that the demand is there.

Also there is a lot of demand to MIA, ORD and LAX, just talking about O&D.

The problem with that might be that HAM is very close in proximity to AMS so for the most part people would drive from Hamburg to Amsterdam to get cheaper fares.

I think you are overestimating what an airport catchment area is. Nobody in their right mind would do such a drive, even for cheaper fares - which is not necessarily the case. Why do you think KL and EW run multiple daily HAM-AMS flights, having upgauged over time from F70 to 73G's?

No other airline dared to fly HAM-US in the recent years, so United has Hamburg to themselves. They can send a small 757 with very low operating cost to sell those few seats at a hefty premium. I think they do it the same way with the other 757 markets that have no competition

UA has been treating HAM quite badly the last years, the CO days, while not perfect, were better. They don't really care much about the route as thanks to the JV, they will still get the money from any spill via FRA, and frequent flyers will stay loyal to Star. Any other non-Star spill are likely low-yielding pax anyway. Going seasonal mgiht be the first step towards shutting down altogether, like with STR. IMO, with a well-served, seriously developed service, versus UA's "take it or leave it" attitude, DL could take it away from them.

klm617 wrote:

evank516 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Right now would be a good time to get DUS going on a 76W, it’s moderately high yielding and has pax to fill the front. The route would have to start as summer seasonal though.

They don't even fly JFK-DUS. My guess is if they add any new destination from there JFK will be first.

You mean like they did when they added DTW-MUC

I'm simply saying that JFK is usually the more likely recipient of any new transatlantic flights. There's exceptions, but usually JFK is the first one to see it.

r2rho wrote:

UA has been treating HAM quite badly the last years, the CO days, while not perfect, were better. They don't really care much about the route as thanks to the JV, they will still get the money from any spill via FRA, and frequent flyers will stay loyal to Star. Any other non-Star spill are likely low-yielding pax anyway. Going seasonal mgiht be the first step towards shutting down altogether, like with STR. IMO, with a well-served, seriously developed service, versus UA's "take it or leave it" attitude, DL could take it away from them.

In the CO days and also the early new UA days HAM was still 757 but with an average load factor of almost 90% for the whole year. With mid to high 90s in Summer, mid to high 80s in Nov/Dec/Mar/Apr and at least mid 70s in Jan and Feb. More flights in Winter and more passengers than TXL EWR.
They ruined it with the 767s, old cabins, many many technical delays and cancellations.

The market is definitely there, I mean its New York and a big Hub. I hope it gets better now with the 757 and some frequent flyer use the flight again. Not as much technical delays and no danger of a super old worn out cabin. But I am confident. Compared to the 3 Class 767 the 757 weighs one third less, and only 14 fewer seats. Btw the new landing fees at HAM for the 757-200 are half of the 767-300 fee.
Delta would surely do better, better than UA did the last two years.

evank516 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

evank516 wrote:

They don't even fly JFK-DUS. My guess is if they add any new destination from there JFK will be first.

You mean like they did when they added DTW-MUC

I'm simply saying that JFK is usually the more likely recipient of any new transatlantic flights. There's exceptions, but usually JFK is the first one to see it.

Depends on what DL thinks they can make money off of. Depends on the avg ticket price. If they can sell a ticket for a higher price from DTW, which is the case with MUC, then DTW will get it. If JFK can produce more, JFK gets it. Of course market size has a lot to do with it but folks can under estimate the market size, like city pairs DTW/KEF which doubled in nearly 50% growth before the start of the new Wow flight.

DL's relatively recent TXL-JFK flights have definitely benefited, same with LH for the time being. But DL business flights are heavily discounted at ~$1,500 r/t a/i on TXL-JFK. If they had established a firm market share, their prices would be closer to UA, around $2,500 and up. It will be interesting to see what LH / UA will do out of DUS to replace the long distance leisure market. I don't see EW add enough 330s to pick up the slack, and I think CityLine could pick up some of these, that concept seems to work in places like PTY.

HAM has a huge disadvantage with their terminal layout making for super long security lines and no gold lane for premium passengers. The UA check in takes like an hour, and then comes that long security line basically wrapping around 3/4 of the terminal walls. It's a shame and could be handled better, but for a city that's a lot more affluent than Berlin, it's still a lot of EW type traffic and about as much premium traffic as Berlin. So they either drive to places like AMS or go through FRA/MUC if they are LH loyalists. Was impressed by the huge LH Technik maintenance base in HAM though.

Is DL stepping up in markets left behind by AB the reason they have downgauged all their FRA flights?

Last summer DL flew the B764 to ATL, JFK and DTW each; this year's summer schedules shows B763s on each of these, even ATL.
Is this still subject to change or has FRA had to step down on their German priority list?

klm617 wrote:

DLHAM wrote:

EddieDude wrote:

It has always baffled me why HAM's only nonstop service to the U.S. is a 757 daily to EWR (not even sure it is year-long or only seasonal). Seems like too little. Hamburg is Germany's second city and the third largest port of call in Europe. It is a media and publishing hub, in addition to being a key place for foreign trade. The Hamburg city-state and its surroundings are very prosperous. In the past EK had fifth-freedom service to JFK from HAM on the A345, but sadly that did not last. Seems like there should be some more demand for nonstop trans-Atlantic travel to and from HAM. Oh well.

If Delta launches another German City it has to be Hamburg. Which other city should they fly to, because they already serve all other bigger cities in Germany. Just not Hamburg, its a pity.
They used to fly to Hamburg until 2000 from the late 80s with up to two daily flights, to ATL and JFK. Its been canceled together with a series of destinations in Europe after the SkyTeam foundation. Most of these routes/destinations came back one day, but their germany map seems to have a missing part in the north.

ATL-HAM would work good with a daily 767 in summer, 5 weekly flights in winter. Traffic and tourism in both directions (USA - HAM) rose a lot in the last 20 years. A lot of business traffic between HAM and ATL, but also Texas, Alabama (Airbus) etc. There is also a big potential from HAM to Florida, where ATL is a perfect place to connect. Many rich Hamburgers have a second home in Florida where they fly to several times a year. Those people do not think about flying Economy.

The problem with that might be that HAM is very close in proximity to AMS so for the most part people would drive from Hamburg to Amsterdam to get cheaper fares.

Hamburg is roughly 300 miles from Amsterdam so I would not say it's in very close proximity. That would be like saying Boston is in very close proximity to Philadelphia.