Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
caverunner17 wrote:I find it interesting that AA moved all of their long-haul to 788's. Seems like quite a capacity downgrade on prior 77E routes.
caverunner17 wrote:I find it interesting that AA moved all of their long-haul to 788's. Seems like quite a capacity downgrade on prior 77E routes.
ckfred wrote:caverunner17 wrote:I find it interesting that AA moved all of their long-haul to 788's. Seems like quite a capacity downgrade on prior 77E routes.
There was an article in the WSJ a while back about ways that airlines are trying to improve on-time performance. AA is trying to use fewer aircraft types on its international routes, from each of its hubs. That way, if a plane goes tech, they can easily swap out another aircraft. Whereas ORD has in the recent past has 788s, 772s, and 763s operating, now it's all 788s. So, if a flight to LHR goes tech, they can swap that aircraft for another going to CDG later in the day, while the first 788 undergoes repairs. That wouldn't have worked, when the CDG flight was usually a 763, and the afternoon/evening LHR departures were 772s.
By the way, I counted just two carriers as having 747 operations at ORD, KL and LH. I can remember when BA, AF, and a number of other foreign carriers, as well as UA, had 747 flights arriving and departing from Terminal 5.
lugie wrote:Am I correct in concluding that LHR and FRA are the most important intercontinental destinations out of ORD?
ORD-LHR is especially impressive, daily A388, B744 and 4x daily B788 on AA/BA plus 3x daily B763 on UA
Quite the gap to FRA's 2x daily B748, 2x daily B772 on UA/LH but I didn't catch another market that would have more than these.
FSDan wrote:Two comments:
2) I don't know if the additional 3x weekly ORD-MUC service on LH materialized. It was announced, but an OAG thread a little while back showed ORD-MUC going back to daily on LH, and I've never seen the additional 3x weekly loaded in the schedule (unless it's coming later than June).
Blerg wrote:Did Austrian downgrade ORD to a B763 last year? I am asking because two years ago they had the B772 flying to ORD on a regular basis.
That said, I am surprised TK and EK don't have more flights to Chicago.
caverunner17 wrote:lugie wrote:Am I correct in concluding that LHR and FRA are the most important intercontinental destinations out of ORD?
ORD-LHR is especially impressive, daily A388, B744 and 4x daily B788 on AA/BA plus 3x daily B763 on UA
Quite the gap to FRA's 2x daily B748, 2x daily B772 on UA/LH but I didn't catch another market that would have more than these.
Or Tokyo.
2x Daily 77W on ANA (one to HND, one to NRT)
1x Daily 788 on AA
1x Daily 77W on JAL
1x Daily 77E on UA
piedmontf284000 wrote:Nice work. Thank you for compiling this list. One note, the BahamasAir flight will be postponed (again) until late 2018/early 2019 and will be operated on Monday and Friday.
DanDun wrote:American will also be flying seasonal service to VCE this summer on the 787
avi8 wrote:So are all the 787-8 based at ORD? Amazing how many 787 flights will operate from there. Seems like none are lef for DFW!
DylanHarvey wrote:avi8 wrote:So are all the 787-8 based at ORD? Amazing how many 787 flights will operate from there. Seems like none are lef for DFW!
DFW is gonna have the 789's and the 77W, that'd be my presumption. Makes sense since the routes are longer.
caverunner17 wrote:lugie wrote:Am I correct in concluding that LHR and FRA are the most important intercontinental destinations out of ORD?
ORD-LHR is especially impressive, daily A388, B744 and 4x daily B788 on AA/BA plus 3x daily B763 on UA
Quite the gap to FRA's 2x daily B748, 2x daily B772 on UA/LH but I didn't catch another market that would have more than these.
Or Tokyo.
2x Daily 77W on ANA (one to HND, one to NRT)
1x Daily 788 on AA
1x Daily 77W on JAL
1x Daily 77E on UA
avi8 wrote:So are all the 787-8 based at ORD? Amazing how many 787 flights will operate from there. Seems like none are lef for DFW!
FSDan wrote:avi8 wrote:I could see AA starting ORD-ATH next summer on the 788. That would be in line with their recent TATL adds from ORD: BCN and VCE. Also, it wouldn't be a new station for them as they already fly to ATH from PHL.
LupineChemist wrote:Doesn't IB go doubly daily to ORD in the summer? At the very least 10x
Flanker7 wrote:KLM will be a mix of 747 and 777-200. Day 357 will see the T7 the other days will see the queen.
piedmontf284000 wrote:LupineChemist wrote:Doesn't IB go doubly daily to ORD in the summer? At the very least 10x
IB stopped the double daily when AA started BCN last summerFlanker7 wrote:KLM will be a mix of 747 and 777-200. Day 357 will see the T7 the other days will see the queen.
Hmm, that's the first I heard of that. Current data shows 747M on all days except Monday and Friday, which will see the 744. From what I have seen, ORD will be one of the last 747 routes for KL. They are supposed to continue into early 2019.
Flanker7 wrote:piedmontf284000 wrote:LupineChemist wrote:Doesn't IB go doubly daily to ORD in the summer? At the very least 10x
IB stopped the double daily when AA started BCN last summerFlanker7 wrote:KLM will be a mix of 747 and 777-200. Day 357 will see the T7 the other days will see the queen.
Hmm, that's the first I heard of that. Current data shows 747M on all days except Monday and Friday, which will see the 744. From what I have seen, ORD will be one of the last 747 routes for KL. They are supposed to continue into early 2019.
Where did you look up you're data.
Taco2sDay wrote:When BA adds DTW, ORD will be gutted as it lives on DTW, CLE, CVG, CMH, IND, STL, MCI, DSM, MSP, and MKE leakage, but 90% from DTW! At best ORD-LHR is a BA 757 route, less than daily.
Taco2sDay wrote:When BA adds DTW, ORD will be gutted as it lives on DTW, CLE, CVG, CMH, IND, STL, MCI, DSM, MSP, and MKE leakage, but 90% from DTW! At best ORD-LHR is a BA 757 route, less than daily.
Taco2sDay wrote:When BA adds DTW, ORD will be gutted as it lives on DTW, CLE, CVG, CMH, IND, STL, MCI, DSM, MSP, and MKE leakage, but 90% from DTW! At best ORD-LHR is a BA 757 route, less than daily.
piedmontf284000 wrote:Flanker7 wrote:piedmontf284000 wrote:
IB stopped the double daily when AA started BCN last summer
Hmm, that's the first I heard of that. Current data shows 747M on all days except Monday and Friday, which will see the 744. From what I have seen, ORD will be one of the last 747 routes for KL. They are supposed to continue into early 2019.
Where did you look up you're data.
KLM
https://www.klm.com/travel/us_en/prepar ... neway=true
marcogr12 wrote:The lack of a direct ORD-ATH route, even a seasonal one, still amazes me, considering that after NY, Chicago area has one of the biggest greek communities in the USA..At least a 4-5w with a 763 or 787-8 would be viable..How much longer till ATH actually gets that flight? The ATH-New York route is covered in the summer by Delta 2d, United daily and EK daily..And a lot of the pax are transfer from ORD..Not to mention those who fly via LHR,FRA,MUC,AMS..
Freshside3 wrote:marcogr12 wrote:The lack of a direct ORD-ATH route, even a seasonal one, still amazes me, considering that after NY, Chicago area has one of the biggest greek communities in the USA..At least a 4-5w with a 763 or 787-8 would be viable..How much longer till ATH actually gets that flight? The ATH-New York route is covered in the summer by Delta 2d, United daily and EK daily..And a lot of the pax are transfer from ORD..Not to mention those who fly via LHR,FRA,MUC,AMS..
Should have been done already, but neither of the two largest carriers in ORD are making any efforts. With A3 as a partner with a hub in ATH, and with having no intention to buy any wide-body planes for transatlantic, it should have been a "slam dunk" for UA. And it's inexcusable for UA for not knowing the dynamics of the ORD-ATH market, when their headquarters being close in proximity to the Greek center of Chicago.
Likely scenario is AA will get it. Recently, a construction a major project was approved at ORD, which was particularly favorable for UA. Needless to say, AA was not happy, and they undoubtedly will try to find something else to counter it. They will need to "dig deeper" to find out how to increase local market share......and ORD-ATH will be one of the things that could do it for them.
UA basically had all everything right in front of them, to justify the addition of ORD-ATH, but did not heed the call. AA, on the other hand, does not have a partner carrier in Greece, and Dallas, where its headquarters is located, is not exactly an ethnic epicenter for Greek people.............essentially, more difficult to notice, by AA's perspective.
It will take a bit more time for AA to figure this market out, but they will eventually get it. And maybe they will even get the flight on the schedule before Easter, which happens to be the biggest non-summer travel period. And Easter in Greece, next year will be on 28 April(which is one week later than most of the world, and close enough to May/Summer season). Would 23 April 2019 be a good guess when AA starts ORD-ATH??
United787 wrote:FSDan wrote:avi8 wrote:I could see AA starting ORD-ATH next summer on the 788. That would be in line with their recent TATL adds from ORD: BCN and VCE. Also, it wouldn't be a new station for them as they already fly to ATH from PHL.
That would be great. I would add FCO to the BCN and VCE group. I am happy to see AA expanding it's seasonal international routes from ORD but I wonder if these routes are heavy leisure routes. I am sure they are making money on them but is this a tell that AA is shifting towards a more leisure summer focus at ORD? With the exception of LHR, all of it's other European destinations are seasonally summer routes. Is AA not getting the business market it used to get? Even DUB and CDG in the summer are probably pretty leisure focused, right? CDG can't even go year round with AA. No Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Austria... I understand that many of these Star Alliance countries but they need to compete...
Freshside3 wrote:United787 wrote:FSDan wrote:
That would be great. I would add FCO to the BCN and VCE group. I am happy to see AA expanding it's seasonal international routes from ORD but I wonder if these routes are heavy leisure routes. I am sure they are making money on them but is this a tell that AA is shifting towards a more leisure summer focus at ORD? With the exception of LHR, all of it's other European destinations are seasonally summer routes. Is AA not getting the business market it used to get? Even DUB and CDG in the summer are probably pretty leisure focused, right? CDG can't even go year round with AA. No Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Austria... I understand that many of these Star Alliance countries but they need to compete...
One thing is not mentioned is the "hidden value" of the so-called "leisure markets". And that is the ability to drive revenue in other markets, oddly enough.
At ORD, both AA and UA have essentially equal schedules and products/services..........for example....AA flies ORD-BOS, but so does UA........for ORD-LGA, UA flies there, but so does AA.......etc., down the line. How and why people do chose one over the other? Price, timing, good and bad experiences do affect it.......but many will say either/or are fine.
The thing about "leisure routes" is that not everyone on those planes are there for vacation. A person may have sick relatives in Poland.......own property in Croatia........go to school in Romania........small business owner of import/export going to Naples, etc. where they do have consistent obligations, of some sort or another. Just because you are not a Fortune 500 company, does not neccessarily mean that it's "playtime".
If an airline provides a convenient service to the international destination that is most needed, it is more likely that they will get most of their other business. For example, if AA started up ORD-ATH, you will get a certain number of UA 100K/year mileage members to switch loyalties, because they flight they really want was offered. Yes, this is not a LHR or NRT trip, as far as yield goes, but you will more than make up for that on getting a big block of business that once belonged to your chief competitor. And this is especially critical in the ORD market, where the margin between UA and AA are close.
AA could gain a lot of market share, by adding trips from ORD to "these kinds of markets", in the "big picture". They may come out ahead, in the long run, by doing so.
luckyone wrote:What a fantastic thread. Great to know about the Venice route, as my better half is Venetian.Freshside3 wrote:marcogr12 wrote:The lack of a direct ORD-ATH route, even a seasonal one, still amazes me, considering that after NY, Chicago area has one of the biggest greek communities in the USA..At least a 4-5w with a 763 or 787-8 would be viable..How much longer till ATH actually gets that flight? The ATH-New York route is covered in the summer by Delta 2d, United daily and EK daily..And a lot of the pax are transfer from ORD..Not to mention those who fly via LHR,FRA,MUC,AMS..
Should have been done already, but neither of the two largest carriers in ORD are making any efforts. With A3 as a partner with a hub in ATH, and with having no intention to buy any wide-body planes for transatlantic, it should have been a "slam dunk" for UA. And it's inexcusable for UA for not knowing the dynamics of the ORD-ATH market, when their headquarters being close in proximity to the Greek center of Chicago.
Likely scenario is AA will get it. Recently, a construction a major project was approved at ORD, which was particularly favorable for UA. Needless to say, AA was not happy, and they undoubtedly will try to find something else to counter it. They will need to "dig deeper" to find out how to increase local market share......and ORD-ATH will be one of the things that could do it for them.
UA basically had all everything right in front of them, to justify the addition of ORD-ATH, but did not heed the call. AA, on the other hand, does not have a partner carrier in Greece, and Dallas, where its headquarters is located, is not exactly an ethnic epicenter for Greek people.............essentially, more difficult to notice, by AA's perspective.
It will take a bit more time for AA to figure this market out, but they will eventually get it. And maybe they will even get the flight on the schedule before Easter, which happens to be the biggest non-summer travel period. And Easter in Greece, next year will be on 28 April(which is one week later than most of the world, and close enough to May/Summer season). Would 23 April 2019 be a good guess when AA starts ORD-ATH??
Perhaps they actually do know the dynamics of the route, and have decided that the market is not there. The New York area's population of Greek heritage is about 200,000. Chicago's is approximately 100,000, similar to Boston which also does not have links to Greece. And smaller than Chicago's South Asian community, which is much newer and travels more frequently, and there is also a lot of business in India. Counter that with the approximately 1.1 MILLION people of Polish descent in the Chicago area. That can make a lot of difference, especially when you're talking about a city pair with very little large-scale business traffic. Yes people go home to visit, but most of the Greeks I know actually don't go that often (years between visits). I know more than a few who've never been at all. Also...just because Greektown is a few blocks away from UA headquarters doesn't mean UA should have some special insight into it's potential traffic. On top of that, Greektown is now mostly restaurants (most of them very good), nothing more. The majority of Chicagoland's Greek population lives in the burbs or the Northwest side of the city, as what we now call Greektown was actually a displacement of the original Greektown, which was further South, where the University of Illinois Chicago now stands. I didn't realize that until a little over a year ago when a patient of mine told me of his upbringing in the Greek community along Blue Island, which is far south of today's Greektown, so I did some reading. (Slightly off topic but UIC's construction also obliterated most Chicago's Little Italy). Most of the residential housing in Greektown is condos, and the people residing in them are largely transient, working in the Loop, West Loop, or Medical District.